National Prepping - Major Emergency Management

krissovo

I was contacted by PM about a comment I made about the Irish emergency plans in the links thread. I made a negative gesture about this plan but I am open minded and would like to throw it out there for discussion as it may be more advanced than it appears to me. The national and local response to a incident should be known so you can factor it as part of your own plans.

First things first we are all entitled to a opinion and I would prefer that we do not abuse anyone or government organization. Constructive criticism is the goal so no blatant abuse like "we suck at emergency management" and leave it closed.

Here is my original post:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76809978&postcount=31

The national emergency plan can be found here:
http://www.mem.ie/

krissovo

So my previous post does not turn into a major ramble here is where I see the negative points:

1. Lack of clear leadership - The plan (simply) states that the appropriate agency or local authority will take responsibility of leadership of an event. This can be a government department, local authority or service like Fire or Garda.

Ok where do I start, if the event is seen as a quick win for positive publicity then all departments will fight for control of a incident unless its crystal clear. The opposite is also true if it is a challenging event that will take a while to control you will get the hot potato effect wasting time until someone takes the lead.

2 Its a tick in box - No real commitment from any department, take for example the Military representatives of the document. We have two officers ranked Colonel and Lt Colonel, with a Army of around 8500 and approximately 15 Generals surely a General should sign off the national emergency plan?

Ref:http://www.mem.ie/memdocuments/mid%20term%20progress%20report.pdf page 14

3 No maintenance - The last meeting appears to be in 2007?
Ref: http://www.mem.ie/memdocuments/mid%20term%20progress%20report.pdf

4 Emergency guides - We have a guide for Hazmat (Nuclear & Chemical) and flooding which look ok but none for infectious disease? Did we forget bird flu?

Ref: http://www.mem.ie/guidancedocs.htm

Doc Ruby

Welcome to quangoville, where failed politicians and party hacks are sent to browse in the taxpayer's pasture. It reminds me of some of the documents I worked with the local authority here in Galway to develop, in which Doc learned he was not a committee sort of person. At least not that sort of committee.

You're dealing with a snarled web of agendas and agencies here, very few of which have any real value.

krissovo wrote: »

4 Emergency guides - We have a guide for Hazmat (Nuclear & Chemical) and flooding which look ok but none for infectious disease? Did we forget bird flu?

Actually proposed protocol five is a "Protocol for Multi-Agency Response to Emergencies arising from Infectious Diseases Pandemics". It doesn't appear to have been developed in the intervening five years mind you. What would probably emerge would be some sort of HSE triage unit, maybe with backup from the guards.

Sorry to say it Kriss, but this is an unsalvageable mess. You'd need to reform the government and all of its agencies itself in order to pull any sense out of it.

waterfordham

krissovo wrote: »

So my previous post does not turn into a major ramble here is where I see the negative points:

1. Lack of clear leadership - The plan (simply) states that the appropriate agency or local authority will take responsibility of leadership of an event. This can be a government department, local authority or service like Fire or Garda.

Ok where do I start, if the event is seen as a quick win for positive publicity then all departments will fight for control of a incident unless its crystal clear. The opposite is also true if it is a challenging event that will take a while to control you will get the hot potato effect wasting time until someone takes the lead.

Actually its clearer than that. A member of the Garda, Local Authority (Fire), or HSE can declare a Major Emergency. What the minimum rank is In practice I've no idea. Now in theory there is a "lead agency" i.e. if its a major for on a major road for example, Fire Service would be the "Lead Agency". How well does it work in practice? No idea, but thats a different (people) problem.

krissovo wrote: »

2 Its a tick in box - No real commitment from any department, take for example the Military representatives of the document. We have two officers ranked Colonel and Lt Colonel, with a Army of around 8500 and approximately 15 Generals surely a General should sign off the national emergency plan?

Ref:http://www.mem.ie/memdocuments/mid%20term%20progress%20report.pdf page 14

Its actually not a National Emergency Plan, Ireland doesn't have one. I could also ask you in regurn (if I was being argumentatice), which plan which emergency? (Zombie Invasion perhaps?).

Re the Military, its a Civil Matter, why would the military be involved (though i would assume that the Military would be the 'lead agency' in a zombie invasion, unless the HSE thought it was their turf)

krissovo wrote: »

3 No maintenance - The last meeting appears to be in 2007?
Ref: http://www.mem.ie/memdocuments/mid%20term%20progress%20report.pdf

Just 'cause its not published, doesn't mean there isn't stuff happening.

krissovo wrote: »

4 Emergency guides - We have a guide for Hazmat (Nuclear & Chemical) and flooding which look ok but none for infectious disease? Did we forget bird flu?

Ref: http://www.mem.ie/guidancedocs.htm

Thats it's a public health issue. Talk to the HSE :P

Not that I'm trying to defend it or anything, but thats what (I think) I know about it. Sure, there seem to be gaps, but I'd say go look at the previous plan and then see what you think (from 1984).:eek:

eth0

I hope this thread causes knee-jerk reaction that will result in us getting more free but mostly useless stuff delivered at our door

Free stuff will of course be imported from China by some TD's family member

ShadowFox

krissovo wrote: »

So my previous post does not turn into a major ramble here is where I see the negative points:

1. Lack of clear leadership - The plan (simply) states that the appropriate agency or local authority will take responsibility of leadership of an event. This can be a government department, local authority or service like Fire or Garda.

Look how well the government delt with the snow fall 2 years ago :rolleyes: I agree with the lack of leadership. Friends and I spent most days during this time at the local old folks as they seemed to have been forgotten about by anyone that mattered

Ok where do I start, if the event is seen as a quick win for positive publicity then all departments will fight for control of a incident unless its crystal clear. The opposite is also true if it is a challenging event that will take a while to control you will get the hot potato effect wasting time until someone takes the lead.

Again I agree if there is a chance for praise they would kill each other

2 Its a tick in box - No real commitment from any department, take for example the Military representatives of the document. We have two officers ranked Colonel and Lt Colonel, with a Army of around 8500 and approximately 15 Generals surely a General should sign off the national emergency plan?

Again why was there an argument about who would pay for the Army to come out with snow ploughs ??? they are getting paid anyway the only extra cost was fuel for the trucks which could have been filled at the county council

Ref:http://www.mem.ie/memdocuments/mid%20term%20progress%20report.pdf page 14

3 No maintenance - The last meeting appears to be in 2007?
Ref: http://www.mem.ie/memdocuments/mid%20term%20progress%20report.pdf
Flooding last year due to poor drain maintenance

4 Emergency guides - We have a guide for Hazmat (Nuclear & Chemical) and flooding which look ok but none for infectious disease? Did we forget bird flu?

Swine flu? Winter vomiting bug?

Ref: http://www.mem.ie/guidancedocs.htm

Why contact by pms ? Are they afraid to voice their opinion ?

baords dyslexic

Untill I see that the plans have been tested with live volunteers and all the services colaborating its all as much use as the warning on a packet of peanuts that says "Allergey warning : May contain nuts".

Compare with a plan I used to know a little about in the UK which is fully tested every second year, Operation Solfire and an overview of the last test (in first couple of pages). Solfire is a plan thats been in operation and tested regularly for the last 40 years I know about it as I was a volunteer survivor of a Ferry Crash exercise back in the 70's.

waterfordham

baords dyslexic wrote: »

Untill I see that the plans have been tested with live volunteers and all the services colaborating its all as much use as the warning on a packet of peanuts that says "Allergey warning : May contain nuts".

I guess it depends on the objective of the exercise. Politically, though, who is going to run an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru exercise that makes everyone look bad?

Oh wait, a bit of precipitation can do that all by itself. :eek:

Grizzly 45

Scary that within a half hour of reading Solfire ,I have a good idea of who and what is in charge,and whose job and duty specific tasks are laid down for a disaster over there.

While three hours of intensive reading I am still non the wiser as to who is supposed to be doing what if a national emergency happens in Ireland.:eek:
A load of acryonyms, and comittees and sub comittiees of steering groups,and a lot of fantastical ideas on equipment and facilities that should be available,but proably isnt.:(
From what I can see the plans in Ireland are for localised incidents,not major national disasters.Even on a local level going by the Nov 08 floods in the Shannon region and Cork area,it seemd shaky at best.


On Kobayashi_Maru type tests..When you do hear of exercises being conducted here ,in the media they are always 100% or very sucessful!!! So either we have a bunch of Captian Kirks in our emergency services,or these tests are sand table games,or so simple that nothing could go wrong.

krissovo

grapeape wrote: »

Why contact by pms ? Are they afraid to voice their opinion ?

No nothing like that, it was more to check if the subject was ok to discuss.