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Man who knocked down burglar in court

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    #212
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,941 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    The King of Moo wrote: »
    What an odd question. I've never been burgled. Oh, and I don't have kids, before that comes up.

    Obviously I can't say what would have happened, but I really doubt that if I had the clarity of thought to go through with the chain of actions needed to get to the point where I was running over the man for the second time, I wouldn't say to myself "I don't like leaving my family alone, and I don't want to kill this person now."

    Would the red mist descend upon me if I came upon the man in the house?
    Yes.

    Would I try to hit him a decent blow if such an opportunity seemed to have arisen?
    Probably.

    But the red mist doesn't explain driving after the burglar and running over him twice, in my opinion.

    Anyone would go crazy, but I'm pretty sure that I would not drive after and attempt to kill the burglar, as those are not the actions of someone consumed by temporary insanity and their protective instincts.

    How do you know that those are not the actions of someone consumed by temporary insanity ? Something completely changed this man's character in those 5 minutes.


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    #213
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    hollypink wrote: »
    The point is that what you can or cant see yourself doing is irrelevant unless you've been faced with something threatening like that. I'd like to think I would behave well in all situations but I am realistic enough to know that on occasion I might not live up to my expectations of myself, particularly under severe stress.

    Fair enough. I dare say I would lash out in the same circumstances but I would not drive after some one and run them down.
    These are the actions of some one who is out of control imo.
    I could easily say if this man had a gun he would have shot the guy.


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    #214
    qc3
    Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭qc3


    hondasam wrote: »
    I don't know how I would react but I would like to think by the time I got into the car, started it, drove round looking for him I might have calmed down.
    I certainly would not run someone down and repeat. This is what a thug would do.


    They say, don't believe everything you read.It's true.
    More fiction than truth in his evidence.
    The witness is the same person who, for not the 1st time has broken into peoples homes while they sleep.
    His award for injuries recieved should never have been so big. His loss of earning would be the money that he didn't make from more breakins while he was laid up and not fit to do any more.
    As a person living in Dundalk, I know of both people in the case. One is a successful business man, providing enployment in Dundalk and Drogheda for many years. The other is a leech on the state that, when out of money decides to take it off hard working people.
    I know who I would like to see happy when this case in over.


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    #215
    The King of Moo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    tayto lover wrote: »
    How do you know that those are not the actions of someone consumed by temporary insanity ? Something completely changed this man's character in those 5 minutes.

    Because he had the wherewithal to decide to get in the car and chase and run the guy over ( I don't buy for a second that he wanted to box him in. Twice), get the key, open the door, start the engine, take off the handbrake, get into gear, work the pedals, change gear when appropriate, run over the guy, then do it a second time.

    There's too much thought involved, in my opinion, to blame it on the red mist.


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    #216
    Ficheall
    Registered Users Posts: 9,034 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    The King of Moo wrote: »
    What an odd question. I've never been burgled. Oh, and I don't have kids, before that comes up.
    It's the rather pertinent question that you directed your last response to me at.
    No offence intended, but I'm afraid I can no longer give any weight to your opinions as to what a reasonable emotional response to being burgled is.


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    #217
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    The King of Moo wrote: »
    Because he had the wherewithal to decide to get in the car and chase and run the guy over ( I don't buy for a second that he wanted to box him in. Twice), get the key, open the door, start the engine, take off the handbrake, get into gear, work the pedals, change gear when appropriate, run over the guy, then do it a second time.

    There's too much thought involved, in my opinion, to blame it on the red mist.

    Was he doing a driving lesson during this event?


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    #218
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    qc3 wrote: »
    They say, don't believe everything you read.It's true.
    More fiction than truth in his evidence.
    The witness is the same person who, for not the 1st time has broken into peoples homes while they sleep.
    His award for injuries recieved should never have been so big. His loss of earning would be the money that he didn't make from more breakins while he was laid up and not fit to do any more.
    As a person living in Dundalk, I know of both people in the case. One is a successful business man, providing enployment in Dundalk and Drogheda for many years. The other is a leech on the state that, when out of money decides to take it off hard working people.
    I know who I would like to see happy when this case in over.

    I can only go on what the op posted, I do not have the inside information you and others have. I'm sure he is a scumbag and no one is disputing that here.
    I'm sure the home owner is a very nice family man who just lost the plot temporarily but it's not something that can be easily justified.
    I hope the courts are easy on him.


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    #219
    The King of Moo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Was he doing a driving lesson during this event?

    No, all of those things are necessary for the car to run. If he hadn't done them he wouldn't have been able to hit the burglar.


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    #220
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,941 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    The King of Moo wrote: »
    Because he had the wherewithal to decide to get in the car and chase and run the guy over ( I don't buy for a second that he wanted to box him in. Twice), get the key, open the door, start the engine, take off the handbrake, get into gear, work the pedals, change gear when appropriate, run over the guy, then do it a second time.

    There's too much thought involved, in my opinion, to blame it on the red mist.

    But you don't know the man and if you did you would be amazed at what he did just as I am. Once again I say that nobody knows exactly how they would react in similar circumstances. And I am not standing up for him and have told him that I disapproved of what he did but those are the facts.


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    #221
    hollypink
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭hollypink


    hondasam wrote: »
    Fair enough. I dare say I would lash out in the same circumstances but I would not drive after some one and run them down.
    These are the actions of some one who is out of control imo.
    I could easily say if this man had a gun he would have shot the guy.

    How do you know you wouldnt drive after them? What if you were thinking "if he isnt caught he might come back?". Maybe you would chase and try to corner him so the guards could arrest him? And in your overwrought state end up breaking his legs when he tries to flee? I dont know if that is what happened but it's possible and I can see people reacting that way. It's easy to say you wouldnt do that and therefore it's criminal but I dont believe that is a reasonable and balanced assessment.


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    #222
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    The King of Moo wrote: »
    No, all of those things are necessary for the car to run. If he hadn't done them he wouldn't have been able to hit the burglar.

    You list them like he had to think of each one carefully. Work the pedals?
    Do you have to concentrate on that? Many irish drivers do seem to be that bad alright, maybe that explains it.

    And as for the red mist having no part. I assume he has ran over a few others in his time too, if he did it that calmly.


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    #223
    The King of Moo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    tayto lover wrote: »
    But you don't know the man and if you did you would be amazed at what he did just as I am. Once again I say that nobody knows exactly how they would react in similar circumstances. And I am not standing up for him and have told him that I disapproved of what he did but those are the facts.

    I do understand what he did to an extent. I'm not blaming him completely.

    He was definitely emotionally compromised, but at the same time I don't think he could've been acting entirely on instinct.

    The mitigating circumstances of what he'd just been through should have been taken into account, and the burglar shouldn't have got so much money, but at the same time I think he still has to face some punishment for his actions.


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    #224
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    qc3 wrote: »
    .
    As a person living in Dundalk, I know of both people in the case. One is a successful business man, providing enployment in Dundalk and Drogheda for many years. The other is a leech on the state that, when out of money decides to take it off hard working people.
    I know who I would like to see happy when this case in over.

    This is irrelevant in the case, don't forget Sean Quinn provided employment to thousands of people in this state, the trial is based on what evidence is provided in court, what media report isn't necessarly what happens in court, details are omitted in cases.


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    #225
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    hollypink wrote: »
    How do you know you wouldnt drive after them? What if you were thinking "if he isnt caught he might come back?". Maybe you would chase and try to corner him so the guards could arrest him? And in your overwrought state end up breaking his legs when he tries to flee? I dont know if that is what happened but it's possible and I can see people reacting that way. It's easy to say you wouldnt do that and therefore it's criminal but I dont believe that is a reasonable and balanced assessment.

    There is a lot of what ifs there. I know my own mind, I could not run someone down. As I said I would lash out with the nearest thing to hand at the time but I would not chase them in my car. This would be the actions of a deranged woman and that I'm not.


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    #226
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    hondasam wrote: »
    These are the actions of some one who is out of control imo.
    I could easily say if this man had a gun he would have shot the guy.

    You seem to know an awful lot in regard to this persons frame of mind at the time don't you, or you think you do.

    This man was obviously very shocked and overcome from being awoken from sleep seeing/hearing a total stranger/burglar in his home while he, his wife and his children slept. I can only imagine the shock this man had.

    The only unfortunate thing that happened in my opinion is that the owner could not deal with him personally inside his home and done a proper job on said scumbag. but there again even though he drove after this scumbag and tried to make a citizens arrest and only broke his two legs, this home owner should be let go free from any charges, and this might just happen.


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    #227
    qc3
    Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭qc3


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    This is irrelevant in the case, don't forget Sean Quinn provided employment to thousands of people in this state, the trial is based on what evidence is provided in court, what media report isn't necessarly what happens in court, details are omitted in cases.

    You only quote part of my post. I can understand why people not from Dundalk would have similar views to yourself.
    I'm not here to argue with anyone.
    What I can say to all viewers of the forum is that if you knew both people and the lives they decided to live, views on the case would change.


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    #228
    hollypink
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭hollypink


    hondasam wrote: »
    There is a lot of what ifs there. I know my own mind, I could not run someone down. As I said I would lash out with the nearest thing to hand at the time but I would not chase them in my car. This would be the actions of a deranged woman and that I'm not.

    All I know is that people can behave out of character when under severe stress/threat. And I think a court should take that into consideration when the "victim" is the source of that stress or threat.


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    #229
    The King of Moo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    zenno wrote: »
    You seem to know an awful lot in regard to this persons frame of mind at the time don't you, or you think you do.

    This man was obviously very shocked and overcome from being awoken from sleep seeing/hearing a total stranger/burglar in his home while he, his wife and his children slept. I can only imagine the shock this man had.

    The only unfortunate thing that happened in my opinion is that the owner could not deal with him personally inside his home and done a proper job on said scumbag. but there again even though he drove after this scumbag and tried to make a citizens arrest and only broke his two legs, this home owner should be let go free from any charges, and this might just happen.

    Do you really think that's what he was trying to do?

    How do you accidentally run over someone twice and break their legs while trying to make a citizen's arrest?


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    #230
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    zenno wrote: »
    You seem to know an awful lot in regard to this persons frame of mind at the time don't you, or you think you do.

    What do you think his frame of mind was? I think it's fairly obvious what it was myself.
    This man was obviously very shocked and overcome from being awoken from sleep seeing/hearing a total stranger/burglar in his home while he, his wife and his children slept. I can only imagine the shock this man had.

    No one disputed that.
    The only unfortunate thing that happened in my opinion is that the owner could not deal with him personally inside his home and done a proper job on said scumbag. but there again even though he drove after this scumbag and tried to make a citizens arrest and only broke his two legs, this home owner should be let go free from any charges, and this might just happen
    .

    That is your opinion to which your are entitled, does not make it right.


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    #231
    Ficheall
    Registered Users Posts: 9,034 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    The King of Moo wrote: »
    Do you really think that's what he was trying to do?

    How do you accidentally run over someone twice and break their legs while trying to make a citizen's arrest?


    OP's quote wrote:

    The witness said he remembered being hit a car, getting up and being hit again.
    Mr McCormack said he heard the defendant saying he would kill him if he got up again.
    ...
    Mr Grehan put it to Mr McCormack that his client was trying to stop him and box him in with his car when he was hit.
    ...
    He did not stop the first time but the second time he was hit he sustained injuries to his legs.
    Looks like he was trying to stop him alright, to be fair - that's credible.
    I don't believe the "box him in" line - that would never have worked.


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    #232
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    qc3 wrote: »
    You only quote part of my post. I can understand why people not from Dundalk would have similar views to yourself.
    I'm not here to argue with anyone.
    What I can say to all viewers of the forum is that if you knew both people and the lives they decided to live, views on the case would change.

    prehaps, but the trial is based on no prior knowledge of an individual, for example the jury would not take into account any prior history of the guy who broke into the house, i.e. any previous convictions etc.


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    #233
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    hollypink wrote: »
    All I know is that people can behave out of character when under severe stress/threat. And I think a court should take that into consideration when the "victim" is the source of that stress or threat.

    I think we all agree on that, just some of us here feel the home owner went a little to far in chasing him in his car and running him over twice.
    I'm sure the jury will see this and he will get off with a suspended sentence or what ever.


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    #234
    Ficheall
    Registered Users Posts: 9,034 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    prehaps, but the trial is based on no prior knowledge of an individual, for example the jury would not take into account any prior history of the guy who broke into the house, i.e. any previous convictions etc.
    Really?? Do they really not take that type of thing into account? I realise the law is an ass, but that's ridiculous...


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    #235
    Duggy747
    Registered Users Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    I can understand the owner driving the car in rage chasing after the scummer. Can't really support him running over the guy twice, though.

    However, the scummer shouldn't see a cent of that money. Absurd situation.


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    #236
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    Ficheall wrote: »
    Really?? Do they really not take that type of thing into account? I realise the law is an ass, but that's ridiculous...

    Nope, the jury judge on the case at hand, you don't look at previous convictions. It's this case and this case alone that he is on trial for. It is taken into account by the judge when passing sentance but not for the trial part.


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    #237
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    hondasam wrote: »
    That is your opinion to which your are entitled, does not make it right.

    does the Irish justice system look right to you ?.

    I only realized you are a lady so I can understand you're philosophy on this issue. when a stranger enters an abode to steal while a family are asleep the man will usually snap from the shock and can do things that they would normally never do. I cannot see much happening to this home owner except an acquittal.


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    #238
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    Duggy747 wrote: »
    I can understand the owner driving the car in rage chasing after the scummer. Can't really support him running over the guy twice, though.

    However, the scummer shouldn't see a cent of that money. Absurd situation.

    I'm separating the burglary and the car accident.
    He got the money because he was knocked down and injured even if it was because of what he did.
    What would be fair is if the home owner could sue him and get the money back.


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    #239
    The King of Moo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    zenno wrote: »
    does the Irish justice system look right to you ?.

    I only realized you are a lady so I can understand you're philosophy on this issue. when a stranger enters an abode to steal while a family are asleep the man will usually snap from the shock and can do things that they would normally never do. I cannot see much happening to this home owner except an acquittal.

    THREAD UPDATE: Only men who have been burgled may post opinions in this thread.

    Carry on.


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    #240
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    zenno wrote: »
    does the Irish justice system look right to you ?.

    I only realized you are a lady so I can understand you're philosophy on this issue. when a stranger enters an abode to steal while a family are asleep the man will usually snap from the shock and can do things that they would normally never do. I cannot see much happening to this home owner except an acquittal.

    The Irish justice system is not always right no.

    Thanks for making me laugh. The chances of my fella waking is very slim indeed, he would sleep through a small war.:D
    I do understand men will want to protect their family and women will want to protect their families too.


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    #241
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    The King of Moo wrote: »
    THREAD UPDATE: Only men who have been burgled may post opinions in this thread.

    Carry on.

    You took that up wrong sir. what I mean is women are more inclined to retreat.


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