Super Rugby [Super 15] - General Discussion Thread

Swiwi

Refs in "Stade Francais" pink...I like it, easy to tell the refs apart.

Swiwi

No way, Hose! Nice try from Gear.

irishbucsfan

I don't understand how Super XV defense can be so atrocious. The skill levels are so inconsistent in this competition. They're superb at some thibgs and dire at others!

Beery Eyed

Swiwi wrote: »

No way, Hose! Nice try from Gear.

He's a beast! That brings the Highlanders right back in it after being second best for the most part so far

Swiwi

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't understand how Super XV defense can be so atrocious. The skill levels are so inconsistent in this competition. They're superb at some thibgs and dire at others!

First game of the season irishbucsfan...I agree some of the defence poor, but the passing skills are first-rate, especially when I consider what France & Wales dished up in their 6N clash (#ABR).

#ABR = anything but rugby

irishbucsfan

Ah come on. This is just appalling defense from both teams.

Swiwi

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah come on. This is just appalling defense from both teams.

Yes, all these journeymen backs made to look good by average defence

Beery Eyed

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't understand how Super XV defense can be so atrocious. The skill levels are so inconsistent in this competition. They're superb at some thibgs and dire at others!

Honestly I don't buy into this theory about defenses being worse in the Super XV. The quality of ball retention, speed of ball movement, superior offloading ability, lines taken by runners, off the ball movement and ultimately the speed & strength of the carriers, are among the reasons that defenders are often made look so ordinary.

All of these things add up to more space being created for elusive runners and therefore the defenders are forced to try and contain electric attackers who have more open field to run into - a pretty scary proposition. Add in the fact that the games are often played on nice hard ground and the speed of the attacks become even more difficult to defend.

Of course I would love to see all of this theory tested in real time by the champions of the Super XV playing the HC winners! Perhaps one day we'll get to see it & then we'll know for sure

Beery Eyed

This game is incredible!!

irishbucsfan

Swiwi wrote: »

Yes, all these journeymen backs made to look good by average defence

I didn't say that?

sock puppet

Ha Nanai Williams looked wrecked there.

Swiwi wrote: »

Yes, all these journeymen backs made to look good by average defence

Why do so many Aussies and Kiwis say average to mean poor? You hear it all the time from commentators

irishbucsfan

Beery Eyed wrote: »

Honestly I don't buy into this theory about defenses being worse in the Super XV. The quality of ball retention, speed of ball movement, superior offloading ability, lines taken by runners, off the ball movement and ultimately the speed & strength of the carriers, are among the reasons that defenders are often made look so ordinary.

All of these things add up to more space being created for elusive runners and therefore the defenders are forced to try and contain electric attackers who have more open field to run into - a pretty scary proposition. Add in the fact that the games are often played on nice hard ground and the speed of the attacks become even more difficult to defend.

Of course I would love to see all of this theory tested in real time by the champions of the Super XV playing the HC winners! Perhaps one day we'll get to see it & then we'll know for sure

I dont know how you could say the defense on display in this game is anything less than abysmal. Everything from the shape to basic technique has been poor.

Makes for exciting rugby but annoys me. Like watching 15 O'Garas running around in defense against 15 Norths!

Beery Eyed

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Makes for exciting rugby but annoys me. Like watching 15 O'Garas running around in defense against 15 Norths!

Without wanting to cause offence, that is absolute horse manure. The vast majority of the guys out there tonight are international quality players.

The reasons that I've outlined in my previous post are why they are often made look average in defense, but make no mistake if we threw in some of the top defenders from the Northern hemisphere they would fare no better.

I've been lucky (unlucky) enough to play in NZ and I learned all about their "weak" defense when I was there

JustinDee

Beery Eyed wrote: »

Honestly I don't buy into this theory about defenses being worse in the Super XV

Its a generalism as unfair as saying that 'northern hemisphere' rugby union is dominated by forwards and 10-man drudgery.
There are a few factors involved.

The quality of a lot of games is determined by conditions. If Irish rugby was played in May-like conditions all year round its style would be affected. Conditions in Australia and South Africa tend to favour a better attacking game. Outside of May, June and July in NZ, I'd say the game goes well there too.

In Australia, the game is, unforgivably, at such a low as the fourth team sport lagging behind Rugby League, AFL and Soccer, that attacking rugby could be considered almost a subliminal requirement regardless. Outside of a RWC win, thats the way it goes there for now. Had the structuring of the Super Rugby competition not been regionalised, an Aussie team would struggle even further to achieve a tourny win.

In my experience, attacking rugby, be that union or league, has always been the mindset in Australia anyway. Only exception would be South Africa. In my view anyway. I played league mainly in Australia but on Sundays played union. I was always coached that quick ball without farting about at rucktime, whether via pick and go, offload or getting out to pivot was more vital than possession or territorial stats and that tries mattered far more than anything else. A casual observer might say that this is part of the problem. It wasn't as there isn't a problem. Defensive play while physically more wearing, is the easier facet of the game. You do some drills and some physical work then its on to the hard stuff, ie. prising open a defence.

Defensive leaks are more prone to happen in the case of a mismatch between sides. To say that Super Rugby defensive clout is mild or non-existant is misguided, I would say.

Sorry about that, I'll get me coat . . .

irishbucsfan

Beery Eyed wrote: »

Without wanting to cause offence, that is absolute horse manure. The vast majority of the guys out there tonight are international quality players.

The reasons that I've outlined in my previous post are why they are often made look average in defense, but make no mistake if we threw in some of the top defenders from the Northern hemisphere they would fare no better.

I've been lucky (unlucky) enough to play in NZ and I learned all about their "weak" defense when I was there

Well I've played good rugby in Oz. Although more relevantly in Ireland and the UK with NPC level players, ex-league pros transitioning to Union and also a couple of guys with some super rugby experience. I know there are guys at that level who can hit. There are also lots of guys at that level who can't tackle at all.

Absolutely the skill levels make for more line breaks. However there are so many passive tackles that allow easy offloads. So many missed tackles. So many unnecessary overlaps. That Gear try was shockingly poor defense. Nanai-Williams should be ashamed as well (although he was out of position).

Send one of those teams up to the Top 14 and they would be completely frustrated.

There is also very little disputed possession at the breakdown. That was something Thorny mentioned as a big difference when he was up here. Quick ball exposing frail defenses.

It is round 1, fair enough (Leinsters defense in round 1 of the Rabo was shocking but its not really comparable) But it's not exactly something that has really ever improved as the competition continues. Its a great spectacle for casual fans and people wanting to watch skillful guys in space. I enjoy other areas of the game more though.

P_1

Bulls v Stormers on now, probably one of the bigger matches of the season I would say, surprising to have it on so early in the season

thomond2006

Amazed that both sides were allowed wear their respective jerseys, pretty bad colour clash.

.ak

Regarding the 'defense' argument, I'm not a believer of any 'league' is better than another (although I totally subscribe to ERC's success story that when different leagues are pitched together you get some very exciting results). Still - I won't get sucked into a debate on which league is better, and why. The one thing I will say is that all leagues have their strengths and weaknesses, and whilst Super Rugby has it's fair share of journeymen (they're not the only ones), and notably suspect defensive displays, I would implore you to wait til the end of the season to make your judgement, when the final few are whittled down from the relevant conferences then you get a real taste of how good Super Rugby can be. You won't see many cricket scores then, and it can produce some of the most exciting club rugby you'll see in any hemisphere. The Reds v Crusaders final a few seasons back was epic, and funnily enough the more defensively sound side (crusaders) lost that game.

P_1

Definitely one for the purists this one.

The extended TMO powers are pretty interesting though.

Swiwi

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I didn't say that?

I know, but if you look at Hose's try, you could say the defence was woeful, or the fend and swerve were wonderful. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Swiwi

JustinDee wrote: »

Its a generalism as unfair as saying that 'northern hemisphere' rugby union is dominated by forwards and 10-man drudgery.
There are a few factors involved.

The quality of a lot of games is determined by conditions. If Irish rugby was played in May-like conditions all year round its style would be affected. Conditions in Australia and South Africa tend to favour a better attacking game. Outside of May, June and July in NZ, I'd say the game goes well there too.

In Australia, the game is, unforgivably, at such a low as the fourth team sport lagging behind Rugby League, AFL and Soccer, that attacking rugby could be considered almost a subliminal requirement regardless. Outside of a RWC win, thats the way it goes there for now. Had the structuring of the Super Rugby competition not been regionalised, an Aussie team would struggle even further to achieve a tourny win.

In my experience, attacking rugby, be that union or league, has always been the mindset in Australia anyway. Only exception would be South Africa. In my view anyway. I played league mainly in Australia but on Sundays played union. I was always coached that quick ball without farting about at rucktime, whether via pick and go, offload or getting out to pivot was more vital than possession or territorial stats and that tries mattered far more than anything else. A casual observer might say that this is part of the problem. It wasn't as there isn't a problem. Defensive play while physically more wearing, is the easier facet of the game. You do some drills and some physical work then its on to the hard stuff, ie. prising open a defence.

Defensive leaks are more prone to happen in the case of a mismatch between sides. To say that Super Rugby defensive clout is mild or non-existant is misguided, I would say.

Sorry about that, I'll get me coat . . .

Yip, every season the North sits on its high horse and accuses the South of powder puff forwards, lolly pop rugby, and weak defence...meanwhile the South sits on its high horse and accuses the North of 10-man rugby, and advancing the score in multiples of 3...mind you watching the 6N 2 weeks ago, I can see their point

As you say, I think the weather has some part to play, but as you also say, rugby needs to be an entertainment product, especially in Aussie, where league has such a foothold.

I enjoy both HEC & SXV, there are average games in both competitions, but also some classics, this was a good game, and I'm sure both sides will tighten their defence as the season progresses. But I'm sure Ireland would love to have the likes of Nonu & Gear available for selection.

Finally, terrible start to the season already for the Blues...letting Anscombe junior escape to the Chiefs.

Swiwi

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well I've played good rugby in Oz. Although more relevantly in Ireland and the UK with NPC level players, ex-league pros transitioning to Union and also a couple of guys with some super rugby experience. I know there are guys at that level who can hit. There are also lots of guys at that level who can't tackle at all.

Absolutely the skill levels make for more line breaks. However there are so many passive tackles that allow easy offloads. So many missed tackles. So many unnecessary overlaps. That Gear try was shockingly poor defense. Nanai-Williams should be ashamed as well (although he was out of position).

Send one of those teams up to the Top 14 and they would be completely frustrated.

There is also very little disputed possession at the breakdown. That was something Thorny mentioned as a big difference when he was up here. Quick ball exposing frail defenses.

It is round 1, fair enough (Leinsters defense in round 1 of the Rabo was shocking but its not really comparable) But it's not exactly something that has really ever improved as the competition continues. Its a great spectacle for casual fans and people wanting to watch skillful guys in space. I enjoy other areas of the game more though.

Well, you're right that the way to beat the ABs is to slow the ball down at the breakdown, see France 2007 for an example, or even the 2nd Irish test v NZ. However, with quick ruck ball, SH sides can dish out right pastings too.

I wouldn't consider myself a "casual fan" and I really enjoy SXV. I do pick & choose the games I watch, but some of the HEC also has terrible games, I mean you couldn't pay me to watch Zebre v Glasgow or the like for example. On the other hand the knockout stages of the HEC are always good viewing.

Swiwi

.ak wrote: »

Regarding the 'defense' argument, I'm not a believer of any 'league' is better than another (although I totally subscribe to ERC's success story that when different leagues are pitched together you get some very exciting results). Still - I won't get sucked into a debate on which league is better, and why. The one thing I will say is that all leagues have their strengths and weaknesses, and whilst Super Rugby has it's fair share of journeymen (they're not the only ones), and notably suspect defensive displays, I would implore you to wait til the end of the season to make your judgement, when the final few are whittled down from the relevant conferences then you get a real taste of how good Super Rugby can be. You won't see many cricket scores then, and it can produce some of the most exciting club rugby you'll see in any hemisphere. The Reds v Crusaders final a few seasons back was epic, and funnily enough the more defensively sound side (crusaders) lost that game.

I'm not sure there's that many journeymen in the NZ franchises, as the competition for a SXV contract is relatively high, but certainly some of the Aussie & SA franchises have some mediocre players.

Swiwi

Highlights for anyone wanting to debate poor defence v scintillating attack (or my view that it's somewhere in the middle)

jamiedav2011

That Smith try (first one) was sensational. What a pick up.

I'd agree that the speed of the game, skill levels and passing capabilities lead to defences being stretched. However, the first Nanai Williams try, the one that Nanai Williams was burned for, the Gear try particularly and the one with the pop pass from the scrummie were all just downright poor defense.

Swiwi

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

That Smith try (first one) was sensational. What a pick up.

I'd agree that the speed of the game, skill levels and passing capabilities lead to defences being stretched. However, the first Nanai Williams try, the one that Nanai Williams was burned for, the Gear try particularly and the one with the pop pass from the scrummie were all just downright poor defense.

And a bit of skill from TNW. I mean if Simon Zebo or Gilroy scored 2 tries like that, would ye all be on boards saying woeful defence, and Ireland were lucky? TNW has incredible afterburners.

Both Gear & Poki scored because of effective fends, but poor tackling too, I agree.

thomond2006

Does Nanai-Williams have an Irish granny?

Tox56

Swiwi wrote: »

And a bit of skill from TNW. I mean if Simon Zebo or Gilroy scored 2 tries like that, would ye all be on boards saying woeful defence, and Ireland were lucky? TNW has incredible afterburners.

Both Gear & Poki scored because of effective fends, but poor tackling too, I agree.

I get what you're saying, but if this try had been scored in Super rugby:

Would you be criticising the blatantly poor defence, or praising the pace, vision and handling skills?

Swiwi

Tox56 wrote: »

I get what you're saying, but if this try had been scored in Super rugby:

Would you be criticising the blatantly poor defence, or praising the pace, vision and handling skills?

Exactly, my point - there's a combination of superlative attack and defensive error...so we are on the same wavelength Tox56!

.ak

Swiwi wrote: »

Highlights for anyone wanting to debate poor defence v scintillating attack (or my view that it's somewhere in the middle)

Think you have it spot on, some of the tries are absolute gifts from the defence, the Gear one in particular, but some of them are absolutely amazing tries in terms of attacking rugby, the highlanders one after that turn over was an unreal display of what a team can do on a turn over, watching their line speed and formation within two passes is something else, it's extremely hard to defend against when a team is well drilled like that. That's not jammy open field stuff, that's cohesion and intelligent rugby.

Brian4416

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I dont know how you could say the defense on display in this game is anything less than abysmal. Everything from the shape to basic technique has been poor.

Makes for exciting rugby but annoys me. Like watching 15 O'Garas running around in defense against 15 Norths!

Shape breaks down when teams have to align and and then re-align so quickly. The pace is extraordinary, the skills and ability to execute are a level or two higher than we see in the NH. With the law interpretation being applied that aid quick ball at ruck time, it's no wonder that the defense gets stretched, broken and shredded. It's a different game in Aus and SA which I think you'll like; it's a little slower and therefore defenses hold up.

There is a reason the ABs beat everyone like a drum he vast majority of the time, and why their Super teams have won the comp more than Aus and SA combined. It's how they pay the game at speed.

Beery Eyed

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

However, the first Nanai Williams try, the one that Nanai Williams was burned for, the Gear try particularly and the one with the pop pass from the scrummie were all just downright poor defense.

In fairness that one needs to be seen from the beginning to put it into context. The Chiefs were unstoppable during that series of play and the pop at the end is just the finish. It looks like an easy run in because the build up has left the Highlanders strewn around the park and the defence is out on its feet. Similarly, the second Nanai-Williams try (where he collapses over the line) is the end result of an incredible series of play that they only showed the end of in the highlights.

Swiwi

Blues v Hurricanes - can JK get off to a good start, fantastic player, but didn't exactly set the world alight as coach of Japan & Italy. Glen Jackson reffing - fab - he has impressed me to date.

Swiwi

Get the impression I'm on my own watching this one...no surprise, given it's 7.23am! Absorbing first half, better defence than witnessed in the Chiefs v Highlanders, but a couple of nicely taken tries, and I don't recognise most of the Blues team (many SXV virgins here, promoted from ITM cup), but they look OK.

Swiwi

Wow! First up win for the Blues, nice! Hurricanes looked a bit flat in the 2nd half, but this is a great start for Sir JK. Some of those Blues back look extremely lethal on attack - won't remain anonymous for much longer at this rate. Francis Saiili continues to go up in my opinion at 12. And Stephen Luatua = Stephen Ferris Mark II (the uninjured SF that is)

Weepu had a great game...except for his kicking...this will come back to haunt the Blues in future matches if he can't improve his kicking stats.

Kaizer Sosa

Israel Folau is having a pretty tough start to his Super Rugby debut. Has been run over twice and knocked the ball forward in promising positions twice in the first twenty minutes or so.

lologram

The waratahs are looking pretty shoddy here so far

Tox56

Ed O'Donoghue starting for the Reds haha. Things must be bad there.. Signed a 3 year contract with Leinster, played a handful of games and was never seen again.. Good for him though I suppose!

Kiwi_knock

The Tahs are making it easy for the Reds, throwing away the ball whenever they get in a promising position.

Kiwi_knock

Tahs back in the game, try for Folau

Kiwi_knock

Great scrum by the Tahs on their try line.

Kiwi_knock

17-17. Volavola try for the Tahs levels it up.

Kaizer Sosa

Watching the Waratahs is like watching Ireland. They do a lot of good things in build up but make silly handling errors in the final phases. I've been very impressed with Brendan Foley so far. Looks like a really promising and intelligent player. The Waratahs kicking has been terrible so far.

Kiwi_knock

Tapuai scores which should wrap up the game up the game for the Reds. 25-17.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Tox56 wrote: »

Ed O'Donoghue starting for the Reds haha. Things must be bad there.. Signed a 3 year contract with Leinster, played a handful of games and was never seen again.. Good for him though I suppose!

He has had periods in France (with Narbonne in the ProD2, he was let go during the trial period for showing up drunk to training I think) and in England with Wasps (he made 7 appearances during a 3 month spell when Wasps had injuries and was let go at the end of the season) since he was with Leinster

lurtz

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

He has had periods in France (with Narbonne in the ProD2, he was let go during the trial period for showing up drunk to training I think) and in England with Wasps (he made 7 appearances during a 3 month spell when Wasps had injuries and was let go at the end of the season) since he was with Leinster

absolutely loves the sesh from what Ive heard

thomond2006

The Kings win their tournament opener: http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8520304,00.html

Swiwi

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Kings win their tournament opener: http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8520304,00.html

Yep, I think the Kings just won the battle of the cellar dwellars. In fairness, I guess any team should hope to beat the Force at home.

For what was essentially an opening weekend, I was happy enough with the rugby I saw - defenses will tighten up etc, but there was the usual attacking mindset from the NZ teams, and there should be some good local derbys this year. A NZ team or the Brumbies would seem an early pick for eventual winners. Blues v Crusaders next week should be a good game - the Blues after a surprisingly good victory over the Hurricanes, and the Crusaders first game, and without Richard. Some of those Auckland backs look destined for higher honours.

Swiwi

.ak, the Blues v Crusaders should hopefully be a cracker this week. The Blues backline looked menacing on attack last week v the 'Canes, and already (following their ITM cup form) Charles Piutau > Frances Saili are being mentioned for "higher honours". The NZ midfield battle will be interesting this year. With SBW gone, Kahui off to Japan, Ellison injured, and C Smith taking a break after the 4N, there's lot to play for. To my mind, it's uncertain if Nonu will still have the form come 2015. Pity Jared Payne didn't stick around a bit longer...It looks like Rene Ranger is off to Montpellier, always made annoying errors at AB level, but definitely a game-breaker.

The Crusaders start the season - minus McCaw - and almost having inherited the ABs choker tag, although basically still more successful than all the other NZ franchises in the last few seasons, certainly the most consistent. In what could be best described as a PSA-esque move, Dagg has been moved to wing. Robbie Freuen has a make or break season this year - fail to make the ABs, and I would put money on him moving to elsewhere and declaring for Samoa. Finally, scrumhalf is the most contested position in NZ, and Andy Ellis might also be looking at his last season here. Would be a good buy for any European club, if he forgoes NZ.

Other good games this weekend should be Stormers v Sharks, Reds v Hurricanes, and Chiefs v Cheetahs.

Edit: Brief article on RR to Montpellier

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10868161

thomond2006

Swiwi wrote: »

The Crusaders start the season - minus McCaw - and almost having inherited the ABs choker tag, although basically still more successful than all the other NZ franchises in the last few seasons, certainly the most consistent. In what could be best described as a PSA-esque move, Dagg has been moved to wing. Robbie Freuen has a make or break season this year - fail to make the ABs, and I would put money on him moving to elsewhere and declaring for Samoa. Finally, scrumhalf is the most contested position in NZ, and Andy Ellis might also be looking at his last season here. Would be a good buy for any European club, if he forgoes NZ.

Other good games this weekend should be Stormers v Sharks, Reds v Hurricanes, and Chiefs v Cheetahs.

Damn Samoan pluckers, how dare they steal the Kiwis...