Palestinian hunger striker - 61 days, detained without charge, near death

Nodin

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

You understand what dead is right? Not alive forever.

Some people would rather face that than indefinite detention with no trial in an Israeli jail.

Guy:Incognito

Jaafa wrote: »

Some people believe some fates to be worse than death, you clearly don't, and that's fine.

Chained to a bed in a hospital rates fairly low on my "fates worse than death" list.

As would a 10 year stretch in prison.

Nodin

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Chained to a bed in a hospital rates fairly low on my "fates worse than death" list..

Hes not in the bed as a treat, you know.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

As would a 10 year stretch in prison.

He isn't facing a 10 year stretch in prison. He has no idea when hes getting out, or if he is at all. Secondly he hasn't been convicted or charged with anything. Thirdly, he would be a Palestinian prisoner in an Israeli jail, which is not the same as being a prisoner in Scandanavia or Britain by any stretch of the imagination.

Guy:Incognito

Nodin wrote: »

Hes not in the bed as a treat, you know.
.

Again, we're comparing it to death, not a holiday.

Nodin wrote: »

He isn't facing a 10 year stretch in prison. He has no idea when hes getting out, or if he is at all. Secondly he hasn't been convicted or charged with anything. Thirdly, he would be a Palestinian prisoner in an Israeli jail, which is not the same as being a prisoner in Scandanavia or Britain by any stretch of the imagination.

So kill yourself before you find ouit whats happening?

amacachi

As was said earlier in the thread, good result for the Israelis if he does die.

Nodin

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Again, we're comparing it to death, not a holiday.




So kill yourself before you find ouit whats happening?

He won't find out whats happening.

According to international law, administrative detention can be used only in the most exceptional cases, as the last means available for preventing danger that cannot be thwarted by less harmful means.

Israel's use of administrative detention blatantly violates these restrictions. It is carried out under the thick cover of privilege, which denies detainees the possibility of mounting a proper defense. Over the years, Israel has administratively detained thousands of Palestinian for prolonged periods of time, without prosecuting them, without informing them of the charges against them, and without allowing them or their attorneys to study the evidence, making a mockery of the protections specified in Israeli and international law to protect the right to liberty and due process, the right of defendants to state their case, and the presumption of innocence.

(my underline)
http://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention

And of course he runs the risk of being systematically tortured while hes there.

Ronin247

Nodin wrote: »

It's fairly obvious where your sympathy lies, so throwing in "not saying"/"I am in no way condoning or condemning " is a bit pointless at this stage.

I am comparing it with our society calling for harsher treatment for criminals.Criminal Assets Bureau is a case of if you cannot prove where the money comes from it is drug/dirty money.Gilligan attempted the very same defence as Bertie....I won it on the horses. Gilligan is in jail and Bertie has a big fat state pension.
Everyone complains when Israel treats someone harshly and when Ireland does not.

wes wrote: »

So I take it you think Israeli spokes people should similarly be held without trial, afterall there government engaged in numerous atrocities against civilians. Of course, if Palestinians were to do the same with an Israeli, there would be a huge out cry from Western governments and people like yourself.

Palestinian Islamic Jihad is a Terrorist organisation who carry out deliberate targetting of civillians.There are plenty of threads condemning Israel but not very many about the suicide bombings of innocent civilians.I am opposed to both sides atrocities.....a lot of posters seem to be opposed to one sides only.

Kirby

Wasn't he a member of a terrorist group? Guilty people protest too ya know. People seem to be assuming that this lad is innocent.

Are people outraged over the fact that he has been held without charge or the fact that he is innocent?

If you learned he was responsible for murdering 100 people would you care that he hadn't been given a trial?

Nodin

Ronin247 wrote: »

I am comparing it with our society calling for harsher treatment for criminals.Criminal Assets Bureau is a case of if you cannot prove where the money comes from it is drug/dirty money.Gilligan attempted the very same defence as Bertie....I won it on the horses. Gilligan is in jail and Bertie has a big fat state pension..

I'm not seeing the similarity.

Ronin247 wrote: »

Everyone complains when Israel treats someone harshly and when Ireland does not. ..

I think I would have noticed somebody saying "Why don't we treat them like the Israelis do the Palestinians" meself.

Ronin247 wrote: »

Palestinian Islamic Jihad is a Terrorist organisation who carry out deliberate targetting of civillians.There are plenty of threads condemning Israel but not very many about the suicide bombings of innocent civilians.I am opposed to both sides atrocities.....a lot of posters seem to be opposed to one sides only.

...because, as a terrorist organisation, they're already under any number of limitations and penalties. You will not be seeing the Islamic Jihad entry in the Eurovision song contest any time soon.

Secondly, Israel - as the occupying colonising force in the OT- is the aggressor.

Nodin

Kirby wrote: »

Wasn't he a member of a terrorist group? Guilty people protest too ya know. People seem to be assuming that this lad is innocent.

Are people outraged over the fact that he has been held without charge or the fact that he is innocent?

If you learned he was responsible for murdering 100 people would you care that he hadn't been given a trial?

Maybe if you read the thread......

Kirby

What part of my post do you disagree with? Was he not a member of a terrorist organisation?

Nodin

Kirby wrote: »

What part of my post do you disagree with? Was he not a member of a terrorist organisation?

He acted as their spokesman in the past. He is not charged with anything, however, nor was he told why he was being held.

Kirby

And therefore I re-iterate the question. Is the moral outrage directed at the internment of an "innocent" man or the fact that internment happens at all? If he was a known terrorist as opposed to an unknown one......would anyone care about the morals of locking him up without trial?

Do we really have the right to dictate the judicial system in another country?

Nodin

Kirby wrote: »

And therefore I re-iterate the question. Is the moral outrage directed at the internment of an "innocent" man or the fact that internment happens at all? ?

It's the fact that internment without trial or charge happens at all.

Kirby wrote: »

If he was a known terrorist as opposed to an unknown one......would anyone care?

Do we really have the right to dictate the judicial system in another country?

...where that country is illegally imposing itself outside its borders, its happened a few times.

Kirby

Nodin wrote: »

illegally imposing itself outside its borders.

I think you will find that there are countries in the west that do this to a far greater degree. Nobody sanctions them.

Nodin

Kirby wrote: »

I think you will find that there are countries in the west that do this to a far greater degree. Nobody sanctions them.

Would you care to give a few examples of this?

Kirby

I wont get into a tit for tat. You know what i'm referring to.

Nodin

Kirby wrote: »

I wont get into a tit for tat. You know what i'm referring to.

I genuinely have no idea what you're on about, hence the question.

cloptrop

So he is in a palestine jail for 61 days waiting on a court date. He is shackled to a bed?
Id say he is shackled to the bed cause hes craaaaaaaaaaaaazy. 61 days is normal to be remanded in custody , even in Ireland.
What did he do? Im sure he isnt completly innocent.
He is a member of a terrorist organisation????????????/ Oh dear let him go.

Nodin

cloptrop wrote: »

So he is in a palestine jail for 61 days waiting on a court date. He is shackled to a bed?
Id say he is shackled to the bed cause hes craaaaaaaaaaaaazy. 61 days is normal to be remanded in custody , even in Ireland.
What did he do? Im sure he isnt completly innocent.
He is a member of a terrorist organisation????????????/ Oh dear let him go.

Did you read the thread?

Zebra3

lividduck wrote: »

Yea, the nerve of these jews expecting to be allowed to live in peace in their homeland.
Who started the yom kippur war? NOT ISRAEL.
Who started the 6 day war NOT ISRAEL.
If you are that interested in human rights look to Syria, Libya,Iran.
Last time I checked the Israelis were not publicly hanging gays!

Care to share with us the massive ethnic cleansing of native Palestinians from the newly declared State Of Israel in 1948-49 and Israel's refusal to allow those refugees to return home ever since?

Or Israel's joint 1956 war on Egypt along with France and Britain which is shamelessly labelled as the Suez Canal Crisis in the West?

And you can see for yourself that Israel did in fact start the Six Day War in 1967.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

But hey, why let facts enter into the domain. :rolleyes:

Seachmall

Kirby wrote: »

If you learned he was responsible for murdering 100 people would you care that he hadn't been given a trial?

How would we know that without a trial?

Ronin247

Nodin wrote: »

I'm not seeing the similarity.
The presumption of innocence is removed by CAB and we have no problem with that.

I think I would have noticed somebody saying "Why don't we treat them like the Israelis do the Palestinians" meself.
But have you heard people complaining that criminals are treated too easy and that our justice system is too lenient??


...because, as a terrorist organisation, they're already under any number of limitations and penalties. You will not be seeing the Islamic Jihad entry in the Eurovision song contest any time soon. Israel deals with terrorists differently.

Secondly, Israel - as the occupying colonising force in the OT- is the aggressor.

The settlements in the occupied terroritories in my opinion are wrong.Bombing innocent women and children as a deliberate tactic as Islamic Jihad do is a cowardly,barbaric and abhorrent way to carry out a "war".I have no sympathy for any terrorist who behaves this way and this man, Khader Adnan, was a spokesman for these cowards.No sympathy from me

Zebra3

Ronin247 wrote: »

The settlements in the occupied terroritories in my opinion are wrong.Bombing innocent women and children as a deliberate tactic as Islamic Jihad do is a cowardly,barbaric and abhorrent way to carry out a "war".I have no sympathy for any terrorist who behaves this way and this man, Khader Adnan, was a spokesman for these cowards.No sympathy from me

What about the bombing of innocent women and children by the Israeli (wait for it ) "Defence" Forces?

Nulty

Kirby wrote: »

Wasn't he a member of a terrorist group? Guilty people protest too ya know. People seem to be assuming that this lad is innocent.

Are people outraged over the fact that he has been held without charge or the fact that he is innocent?

If you learned he was responsible for murdering 100 people would you care that he hadn't been given a trial?

There are no innocent people Kirby, there is a reason they call it "Not Guilty". He has not been charged or convicted of any crime and therefore he is "Not Guilty" and as a result - it is you who are assuming, not the people protesting his capture.

token101

wes wrote: »

The Israeli's (and tbh the US and many other Western countries), don't particularly care about the lives of Palestinians. They will claim he is a terrorists or come up with some other lie to smear him, and say he deserved to die or some other excuse. He won't be released and he will sadly die, and his name will be probably be smeared with all sorts of lies.

He acted as spokesman for the Islamic Jihad. If that's true, it's not exactly necessary to smear his name. He should be charged.

I don't agree that the Israelis are leaving him to die. He's starving himself to highlight his cause. He hasn't been starved or denied treatment.

token101

Zebra3 wrote: »

What about the bombing of innocent women and children by the Israeli (wait for it ) "Defence" Forces?

That doesn't make Islamic Jihad right though. It's not a defence.

cloptrop

So some spokesman for a terrorist organisation got arrested. What do terrorist organisation spokesmen do? They argue in favour of terrorists , they drum up support for terrorism they recruit and they are a member of an illegal organisation.
Pick your charge.
Just because he is on hunger strike doesnt mean he should be let go. There are so many eco warriors on here that find a shred of hidden news somewhere on the jim corr website and run it like its auswitz.
This fella is making a martyr out of himself . Simle as .
Ram a milkshake down his throat or let him die all the same. Damn terrorists.

humanji

cloptrop wrote: »

So some spokesman for a terrorist organisation got arrested. What do terrorist organisation spokesmen do? They argue in favour of terrorists , they drum up support for terrorism they recruit and they are a member of an illegal organisation.
Pick your charge.
Just because he is on hunger strike doesnt mean he should be let go. There are so many eco warriors on here that find a shred of hidden news somewhere on the jim corr website and run it like its auswitz.
This fella is making a martyr out of himself . Simle as .
Ram a milkshake down his throat or let him die all the same. Damn terrorists.

Just because he is associated with terrorists doesn't mean he should be held without charge for in indefinite amount of time. If there's evidence of a crime, it should be used in a trial. People shouldn't be locked up on the odd chance that they may have commited a crime.

wes

Ronin247 wrote: »

Palestinian Islamic Jihad is a Terrorist organisation who carry out deliberate targetting of civillians.

Any proof that this man was involved in any of that? Oh wait there is none.

Ronin247 wrote: »

There are plenty of threads condemning Israel but not very many about the suicide bombings of innocent civilians.I am opposed to both sides atrocities.....a lot of posters seem to be opposed to one sides only.

Considering that the man in question was not involved in violence against Israel, kind of puts a lie to what your saying. So unless you can prove he was involved in violence, than you don't have a leg to stand on. You also miss my point, that if it was the other way around, it would also be wrong, but then if it was the other way around, there would be presumption of innocence, which apparently doesn't apply to Palestinians.

wes

token101 wrote: »

He acted as spokesman for the Islamic Jihad. If that's true, it's not exactly necessary to smear his name.

The smear is that people are essentially accusing him of engaging in terrorism without proof e.g. that being a spokesperson for that organisation equals him being guilty, of something, but we don't even know what that something, which shows how farcical the whole thing is, especially for those who are supporting Israel on this.

Zebra3

token101 wrote: »

That doesn't make Islamic Jihad right though. It's not a defence.

The Isaraeli people have consistently endorsed their state's war on the Palestinian people. What did they expect?

RiseToTheTop

Too many Jews in high places in the US for anything to be done.

What is the difference between Israel and other of the US tagged "Rogue States". Israel have illegal nuclear weapons, bomb towns killing innocent people and invade countries.

But because Jews have a major stakehold in US affairs, they "are acting against terrorists" and are a legit country. (Despite there being no such thing as Israel until World War II ended.)

cloptrop

humanji wrote: »

Just because he is associated with terrorists doesn't mean he should be held without charge for in indefinite amount of time. If there's evidence of a crime, it should be used in a trial. People shouldn't be locked up on the odd chance that they may have commited a crime.

Isreal legally owns that land that they are fighting over does it not. If a gang of travellers set up camp in your garden and started suicide bombing your family whenever they got the bus would you be here complaining that they locked up their spokesman?
It doesnt matter who should own it . Isreal own it end of . The fact the fella wont eat has nothing to do with it . Isreal do not have the responsibility of force feeding someone. If someone wants to starve to death I say let him .

Seachmall

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

legit country. (Despite there being no such thing as Israel until World War II ended.)

I don't get this argument. Was there a deadline on declaring countries that they missed?

Why does when they came into existence have anything to do with them being a legit country?

Nodin

cloptrop wrote: »

Isreal legally owns that land that they are fighting over does it not. ......

It - rather notoriously - does not.

Nodin

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Too many Jews in high places in the US for anything to be done.

What is the difference between Israel and other of the US tagged "Rogue States". Israel have illegal nuclear weapons, bomb towns killing innocent people and invade countries.

But because Jews have a major stakehold in US affairs, they "are acting against terrorists" and are a legit country. (Despite there being no such thing as Israel until World War II ended.)

Anti-semetic bollocks, tbh.

seamus

cloptrop wrote: »

If a gang of travellers set up camp in your garden and started suicide bombing your family whenever they got the bus would you be here complaining that they locked up their spokesman?

Actually it would be more accurately described as thus:

You see a large group of travellers living on a piece of land that they've lived on for generations. You decide for no good reason that the land belongs to you and build a house there and force the travellers to vacate a part of the land to suit you.
As time goes on, you're not satisfied with the land you have and you continually relocate the travellers to other parts of the plot at gunpoint, killing any that get in your way.
The travellers get frustrated, and in frustration they kick your car, denting it. So in retalitation you burn half of their encampment and kill hundreds of them.
This kind of back-and-forth (small acts by them, massive overreaction by you) goes on for a little while until you decide to start capturing any travellers found outside "their" part of the land, locking them in your basement without telling them why you're doing it.

Who's in the wrong here?

Ellian

cloptrop wrote: »

Isreal legally owns that land that they are fighting over does it not.

No it doesn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements

token101

Zebra3 wrote: »

The Isaraeli people have consistently endorsed their state's war on the Palestinian people. What did they expect?

So it's ok for them to blow up innocents? What about the few that don't agree? Are they legitimate targets aswell? If that's the case then it's full blown war and anything goes. I don't remember the Palestinians putting Gilad Shilat on trial.

brimal

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Too many Jews in high places in the US for anything to be done.

What is the difference between Israel and other of the US tagged "Rogue States". Israel have illegal nuclear weapons, bomb towns killing innocent people and invade countries.

But because Jews have a major stakehold in US affairs, they "are acting against terrorists" and are a legit country. (Despite there being no such thing as Israel until World War II ended.)

It just shows how bitter some people are that Israel exists.

For such a young country Israel has done extremely well. In her short 60 years of existence, it has contributed more to modern civilisation than all of her neighbours combined.

brimal

Zebra3 wrote: »

The Isaraeli people have consistently endorsed their state's war on the Palestinian people. What did they expect?

What a load of complete nonsense.

Have you ever been to Israel? Have you ever spoken to Israeli people? Majority of everyday Israelis don't want this.

I wouldn't expect anything less from a person who thanks anti-semetic posts though.

Zebra3

token101 wrote: »

So it's ok for them to blow up innocents? What about the few that don't agree? Are they legitimate targets aswell? If that's the case then it's full blown war and anything goes. I don't remember the Palestinians putting Gilad Shilat on trial.

In very cases do Palestinians target innocent people.

As there are very few. Most Israelis are soldiers and all the Israelis living in the West Bank are part of the ever so subtle occupying armed militias. Some might even say terrorists.

Israel steals water every day from the Occupied West Bank and the Occupied Golan Heights. The vast majority of Israelis are happy enough with this criminality that their state is engaging in.

Zebra3

brimal wrote: »

What a load of complete nonsense.

Have you ever been to Israel? Have you ever spoken to Israeli people? Majority of everyday Israelis don't want this.

I wouldn't expect anything less from a person who thanks anti-semetic posts though.

Yes I have been to Israel. I've also been to Hebron. Want to talk about what happens there every day?

The election results in Israel speak for themselves. The people endorse parties that continue their sixty plus years war on the Palestinian people.

And I don't thank racist posts. Pointing out the power held by certain groups or people in the US is not racist after all am I anti-Irish for pointing out the power that some Irish people hold in the US? :rolleyes:

If you wanna talk about racism, let us discuss the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

wes

brimal wrote: »

Have you ever been to Israel? Have you ever spoken to Israeli people? Majority of everyday Israelis don't want this.

Every single Israeli government since 1967 has enaged in the greater Israel project, so I find it hard to believe that there isn't a huge support for settlements in Israel. If a majority are against them as you say, and seeing as Israel says there a democracy, then why are there so many settlements that are increasing on a daily basis?

Now, there are certainly Israeli's who are against the whole thing, and some who even go on protests alongside Palestinians in the West Bank, but from what I have read, they are increasingly on the recieving end of a great deal of hatred from other Israeli's.

token101

seamus wrote: »

Actually it would be more accurately described as thus:

You see a large group of travellers living on a piece of land that they've lived on for generations. You decide for no good reason that the land belongs to you and build a house there and force the travellers to vacate a part of the land to suit you.
As time goes on, you're not satisfied with the land you have and you continually relocate the travellers to other parts of the plot at gunpoint, killing any that get in your way.
The travellers get frustrated, and in frustration they kick your car, denting it. So in retalitation you burn half of their encampment and kill hundreds of them.
This kind of back-and-forth (small acts by them, massive overreaction by you) goes on for a little while until you decide to start capturing any travellers found outside "their" part of the land, locking them in your basement without telling them why you're doing it.

Who's in the wrong here?

Israel might be in the wrong building settlements, but the Palestinians, or more accurately groups acting in their name, have done enough **** to them in their time to be classed as more than disgruntled people kicking a car.

token101

Zebra3 wrote: »

In very cases do Palestinians target innocent people.

As there are very few. Most Israelis are soldiers and all the Israelis living in the West Bank are part of the ever so subtle occupying armed militias. Some might even say terrorists.

Israel steals water every day from the Occupied West Bank and the Occupied Golan Heights. The vast majority of Israelis are happy enough with this criminality that their state is engaging in.

Munich Olympics? Were the athletes engaging in war there?

Israel has conscription, they don't get a choice in the matter. The bit in black is just nonsense. Have you got anything concrete to back this up other than anecdotal evidence from visits? We elect a government here. Are you happy they are giving billions to a dead bank?

seamus

token101 wrote: »

Israel might be in the wrong building settlements, but the Palestinians, or more accurately groups acting in their name, have done enough **** to them in their time to be classed as more than disgruntled people kicking a car.

It's the scale that I'm referring to.

Terrorist attacks and deaths in Israel have massively tapered off in the last ten years. Maybe it's down to tighter security, maybe it's not. But the fact is that Israel is at a very reduced risk of terrorism at present.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_1948.E2.80.93present

My scale is off, I'll grant that. But the fact is that Israel has caused far more suffering and death to Palestine than the opposite way around. If either party is being afforded a moral high ground here, clearly Palestinians are the ones with the greater right to be pissed off.

Israel can claim that they're defending themselves from terrorism, but Palestinians have a greater claim that they're defending themselves from genocide.

brimal

Zebra3 wrote: »

The election results in Israel speak for themselves.

Yes, Kadima got the most votes but aren't in power.

Zebra3 wrote: »

And I don't thank racist posts.

Yes, you thank anti-semetic posts. Not just today's endorsement either.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Pointing out the power held by certain groups or people in the US is not racist after all am I anti-Irish for pointing out the power that some Irish people hold in the US? :rolleyes:

Ok, can you please tell me what 'group' should be in power? There will always be people in positions of power. What's the problem with them being Jewish, Irish, etc.? Would you be happier if the people in power were white?

token101

seamus wrote: »

It's the scale that I'm referring to.

Terrorist attacks and deaths in Israel have massively tapered off in the last ten years. Maybe it's down to tighter security, maybe it's not. But the fact is that Israel is at a very reduced risk of terrorism at present.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_1948.E2.80.93present

My scale is off, I'll grant that. But the fact is that Israel has caused far more suffering and death to Palestine than the opposite way around. If either party is being afforded a moral high ground here, clearly Palestinians are the ones with the greater right to be pissed off.

I'd say almost definitely. It's an identical situation to the North in a lot of ways. There is a war over territory. Neither side is in the 'right'. Almost all of the people in Israel were born there and should have the right to reasonable defence. Yes, Israel should have stopped building settlements like they were told to by the UN, but Palestinians don't hold any moral high ground. Hamas bring artillery in consistently and fire it into Gaza aswell. It's not just Israel making **** of the place. And it's innocents on both sides getting caught in the middle that end up being killed.

Look at it from the point of view of Israel for a second: they are surrounded by enemies, consistently preaching racial hatred against them. It'd be difficult for them to be peaceful.