Palestinian hunger striker - 61 days, detained without charge, near death

droidus

token101 wrote: »

Yes, Israel should have stopped building settlements like they were told to by the UN, but Palestinians don't hold any moral high ground. Hamas bring artillery in consistently and fire it into Gaza aswell.

Wow, Hamas are so evil that they're now firing 'artillery' at themselves??? Does their commitment to terror know no bounds? :mad: :mad::pac:

wes

token101 wrote: »

Look at it from the point of view of Israel for a second: they are surrounded by enemies, consistently preaching racial hatred against them. It'd be difficult for them to be peaceful.

Nonsense, there are peace deals with both Jordan and Egypt.

Also an offer for peace from the entire Arab league:
Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

Israel chose settlements over peace time and time again.

brimal

wes wrote: »

Nonsense, there are peace deals with both Jordan and Egypt.

Also an offer for peace from the entire Arab league:
Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

Every single one of Israel's Arab neighbours would prefer if Israel wasn't there. This is something Israel have to live with and they have every right to be sceptical of their neighbours at times.

wes

brimal wrote: »

Every single one of Israel's Arab neighbours would prefer if Israel wasn't there.

The Israeli's would prefer to be rid of the Palestinians and are currently doing there best to achieve this via the whole greater Israeli project, but pushing the Palestinians into smaller and smaller Bantustans. Seems to me that Israel hatred of Palestinians and Arabs is ignored, but the fact remains Israel was offered a peace deal, which btw is still on the table, and that there still ignoring, all the while there still stealing more and more land.

brimal wrote: »

This is something Israel have to live with and they have every right to be sceptical of their neighbours at times.

Yeah, so they offered a full and comprehsive peace deal with Israel, meanwhile Israel keeps stealing land thats not theres, but its the Arabs that are in the wrong. Its amazing even after offering a peace deal with everyone, some how its the Arabs who are in the wrong.

Seriously you will have to come with far better excuse than that. Considering the existing peace deals.

dlofnep

People need to stop seeing criticism of Israel as anti-semitism. It does Israel no good, or it's supporters to brush it's human rights abuses away - screaming anti-semite everytime someone addresses their record.

I'm not naive, nor am I ignorant to the past. I understand the Jewish people have a heightened sense of security as a result of WW2. I believe they are justified in this, and recognise that it could at least explain some of the behaviour of Israel.

But Israel does not represent all Jewish people. It only represents the Israeli people. And if they want to protect the future of the Israeli people and their children, they need to be much more intelligent about their actions. They simply cannot continue to defy international calls to end illegal settlements, and they cannot continue to treat Palestinians as second class people interning them without trial.

There will never be peace until Israel learns to compromise. Government after Government of Israel has simply been too stubborn, much to the detriment of both the Israeli people and the Palestinians. If Israel ends settlements, agrees to move back it's borders to the original agreed lines - I feel that there could be a really solid basis for a real peace agreement.

The Palestinians deserve a state as much as any other people, and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. In return, the Palestinians must recognise the state of Israel based on the 67 lines and once the deal is done with Israel's above compromises - the war is over, and any future Government will need to control any minority hard-liners.

Nodin

token101 wrote: »

I'd say almost definitely. It's an identical situation to the North in a lot of ways. There is a war over territory. Neither side is in the 'right'. Almost all of the people in Israel were born there and should have the right to reasonable defence. Yes, Israel should have stopped building settlements like they were told to by the UN, but Palestinians don't hold any moral high ground. Hamas bring artillery in consistently and fire it into Gaza aswell. It's not just Israel making **** of the place. And it's innocents on both sides getting caught in the middle that end up being killed.

Look at it from the point of view of Israel for a second: they are surrounded by enemies, consistently preaching racial hatred against them. It'd be difficult for them to be peaceful.

It's not a "neither side is right" affair, in that the land is not Israels, nor do they have any right to colonise it.

Hamas don't have artillery, nor would they be firing it into Gaza. Israel do, and occassionally do.

Having been denied peaceful methods of resititution for the colonisation of their land, and having had it slowly stolen over the last 40 years, you'd find most would say the Palestinians do indeed have the "moral high ground".

Zebra3

token101 wrote: »

Munich Olympics? Were the athletes engaging in war there?

Not during the Olympics they weren't.

What about the innocent Palestinians murdered by Israel. Do they deserve to die?

What about the innocent Palestinians dispossed of their land by Israel who live in refugee camps. Do they deserve that?

What about the innocent Palestinians tortured by Israel. Do they deserve that?

What about the Palestinian women who die because the occupying Israeli forces refuse to allow their ambulances throguh checkpoints while they are in labour?

joseph brand

Israel's Tanks Country of Origin

Merkava Mk.1 250 Israel
Merkava Mk.2 580 Israel
Merkava Mk.3 750 Israel
Merkava Mk.4 320 Israel Additional 300 to be delivered
Magach 5 561 United States/ Israel Upgraded M60 tank
Magach 6 711 United States/ Israel Upgraded M60 tank
Magach 7 111 United States/ Israel Upgraded M60 tank

Palestinian Tanks.
Don't exist.

I haven't even mentioned Israeli air support or Nukes.

Palestinians do have rockets which we have seen can break branches and smash windows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_main_battle_tanks_by_country

Stiffler2

Those 2 nations have been at it since time began. Once Iran goes nuclear though I believe this problem will get resolved shortly.

Ellian

I've always thought this quote by Hitchens was a good place to start the debate.

“Suppose that a man leaps out of a burning building—as my dear friend and colleague Jeff Goldberg sat and said to my face over a table at La Tomate in Washington not two years ago—and lands on a bystander in the street below. Now, make the burning building be Europe, and the luckless man underneath be the Palestinian Arabs. Is this a historical injustice? Has the man below been made a victim, with infinite cause of complaint and indefinite justification for violent retaliation? My own reply would be a provisional 'no,' but only on these conditions. The man leaping from the burning building must still make such restitution as he can to the man who broke his fall, and must not pretend that he never even landed on him. And he must base his case on the singularity and uniqueness of the original leap. It can't, in other words, be 'leap, leap, leap' for four generations and more. The people underneath cannot be expected to tolerate leaping on this scale and of this duration, if you catch my drift. In Palestine, tread softly, for you tread on their dreams. And do not tell the Palestinians that they were never fallen upon and bruised in the first place. Do not shame yourself with the cheap lie that they were told by their leaders to run away. Also, stop saying that nobody knew how to cultivate oranges in Jaffa until the Jews showed them how. 'Making the desert bloom'—one of Yvonne's stock phrases—makes desert dwellers out of people who were the agricultural superiors of the Crusaders.”

token101

Nodin wrote: »

It's not a "neither side is right" affair, in that the land is not Israels, nor do they have any right to colonise it.

Hamas don't have artillery, nor would they be firing it into Gaza. Israel do, and occassionally do.

Having been denied peaceful methods of resititution for the colonisation of their land, and having had it slowly stolen over the last 40 years, you'd find most would say the Palestinians do indeed have the "moral high ground".

What I actually meant was firing from Gaza into Israel, and Hamas and it's militants have plenty of weaponry. They fire into Israel regularly. What are Israel supposed to do? Not fire back? They fired 1600 rockets in 2007, it's gone down dramatically since but how much of that is due to the increased security.

It is Israeli land. Most, if not almost all at this stage, were born there on that soil. Where do you suggest should they go?

The Palestinians and allies have been pursuing war for the past 60 years so I don't see how you would think that they have 'been denied a peaceful resolution'. It's a war. Bad things happen. I'm not saying Israel is right in continuing to build settlements and blockade international aid, but the Palestinians certainly hold no moral high ground. They've committed enough atrocities to have lost that long, long ago, much like the IRA did in the North. There's two sides to every story, but sure don't let that get in way of a 'cause'.

token101

joseph brand wrote: »

Israel's Tanks Country of Origin

Merkava Mk.1 250 Israel
Merkava Mk.2 580 Israel
Merkava Mk.3 750 Israel
Merkava Mk.4 320 Israel Additional 300 to be delivered
Magach 5 561 United States/ Israel Upgraded M60 tank
Magach 6 711 United States/ Israel Upgraded M60 tank
Magach 7 111 United States/ Israel Upgraded M60 tank

Palestinian Tanks.
Don't exist.

I haven't even mentioned Israeli air support or Nukes.

Palestinians do have rockets which we have seen can break branches and smash windows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_main_battle_tanks_by_country

And kill people. And if the security wasn't so tight, who is to say they wouldn't have an awful lot more?

Dudess

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

might have been a good idea to start doing this a long time ago instead of blowing up busses and randomly firing missiles into civilian areas

I could have sworn I'd seen you vehemently criticising Israeli state policy on Palestine.

Nodin

token101 wrote: »

What I actually meant was firing from Gaza into Israel, and Hamas and it's militants have plenty of weaponry. They fire into Israel regularly. What are Israel supposed to do? Not fire back? They fired 1600 rockets in 2007, it's gone down dramatically since but how much of that is due to the increased security.

It is Israeli land. Most, if not almost all at this stage, were born there on that soil. Where do you suggest should they go?.

You seem to be confused. The West Bank, Gaza, Arab East Jerusalem etc are not part of Israels internationally recognised territory. This is where they build the settlements, offer tax breaks to tempt colonists to move in etc. This is Palestinian land outside Israels legal borders.
http://www.btselem.org/settlements/international_law

token101 wrote: »

The Palestinians and allies have been pursuing war for the past 60 years so I don't see how you would think that they have 'been denied a peaceful resolution'..

...because the US has blocked sanctions at the UNSC by use of its veto. Therefore there is no international consequences for Israel for its colonial enterprise.

RichieC

Stiffler2 wrote: »

Those 2 nations have been at it since time began. Once Iran goes nuclear though I believe this problem will get resolved shortly.

What two nations? Do you mean Israel? that was founded in 1948.

token101

Zebra3 wrote: »

Not during the Olympics they weren't.

What about the innocent Palestinians murdered by Israel. Do they deserve to die?

What about the innocent Palestinians dispossed of their land by Israel who live in refugee camps. Do they deserve that?

What about the innocent Palestinians tortured by Israel. Do they deserve that?

What about the Palestinian women who die because the occupying Israeli forces refuse to allow their ambulances throguh checkpoints while they are in labour?

Not during the Olympics? So what because they might have previously been conscripts that makes them legitimate targets?

No is the answer to all your stupidly loaded questions. But ever think that maybe, there's an Israeli side to that story? Maybe they're not just born bloodthirsty conquerers and just feel that this security is necessary? I'm not saying it's right, but there's a reason for everything. And I don't believe that all Israelis are savage war mongerers like certain media outlets would have you believe.

RichieC

token101 wrote: »

Not during the Olympics? So what because they might have previously been conscripts that makes them legitimate targets?

No is the answer to all your stupidly loaded questions. But ever think that maybe, there's an Israeli side to that story? Maybe they're not just born bloodthirsty conquerers and just feel that this security is necessary? I'm not saying it's right, but there's a reason for everything. And I don't believe that all Israelis are savage war mongerers like certain media outlets would have you believe.

Read up on the goals of Zionists and get back to us about conquerors. Every person I know online who criticise Israel seem to be able to distinguish between Jews and Zionists. It boggles my mind that the pro Israel at any cost contingent do not.

Zebra3

Stiffler2 wrote: »

Those 2 nations have been at it since time began. Once Iran goes nuclear though I believe this problem will get resolved shortly.

No they haven't. The current problems only began when zionists started arriving from europe with their plan to ethnicly cleanse Palestine of its native population and to colonialise the land.

token101 wrote: »

Not during the Olympics? So what because they might have previously been conscripts that makes them legitimate targets?

No is the answer to all your stupidly loaded questions. But ever think that maybe, there's an Israeli side to that story? Maybe they're not just born bloodthirsty conquerers and just feel that this security is necessary? I'm not saying it's right, but there's a reason for everything. And I don't believe that all Israelis are savage war mongerers like certain media outlets would have you believe.

Do you believe we needed to hear the German side of the story about WWII and everything that happened during it?

Israel is stealing land. For some reason it was unaccpetable for Serbs to do so, but the international community generally gives a nod and a wink to Israel to carry on with its crimes.

Warper

What the Israelis are doing to the Palestinian people is akin to what the Nazis did to the Jewish people. How ironic that the victims of Holocaust are now performing their own Holocaust. Only this time there are no Allies to save the persecuted due to political, financial reasons mainly attributed to the US who does nothing out of fear of losing votes. Look away World and pretend that everything is fine. The story of the Palestinian people is one of the saddest parts of our history.

RichieC

Warper wrote: »

What the Israelis are doing to the Palestinian people is akin to what the Nazis did to the Jewish people. How ironic that the victims of Holocaust are now performing their own Holocaust. Only this time there are no Allies to save the persecuted due to political, financial reasons mainly attributed to the US who does nothing out of fear of losing votes. Look away World and pretend that everything is fine. The story of the Palestinian people will be one of the saddest parts of our history.

That's taking it a shade far. Its more akin to South Africa under Apartheid.

ItsAWindUp

I wonder will there be a violent backlash if he dies?

Einhard

It seems to me that, although this guy might be a nasty piece of work, he hasn't been charged with anything, and therefore ought to be released. Internment for long periods is wrong whether it's carried out by the Americans, by the Brits in the North, by the Palestinians themselves, or by the Israelis.

It's utterly counter-productive too, as the Brits learned the hard way up North.

Dudess

Warper wrote: »

What the Israelis are doing to the Palestinian people is akin to what the Nazis did to the Jewish people. How ironic that the victims of Holocaust are now performing their own Holocaust. Only this time there are no Allies to save the persecuted due to political, financial reasons mainly attributed to the US who does nothing out of fear of losing votes. Look away World and pretend that everything is fine. The story of the Palestinian people is one of the saddest parts of our history.

No way is it as bad as the Holocaust, and people aren't pretending it's fine - there's plenty of support, but it's just not powerful enough support.

Ronin247

wes wrote: »

Nonsense, there are peace deals with both Jordan and Egypt.

Also an offer for peace from the entire Arab league:
Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

Israel chose settlements over peace time and time again.

There have been countless peace plans rejected by both sides,the 2002 peace plan basically wanted a return to all 1967 borders and the Palestinian people to be given the right of return.
Israel have agreed before to cede most if not all the territories from 1967 but the right of return is a big sticking point
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return.

So the 2002 Arab League proposed "peace plan" was, give us back any territory we lost in the 1967 wars and accept 4 million new citizens who hate you and we will be nicer.Cannot understand it being rejected.

token101

Zebra3 wrote: »

No they haven't. The current problems only began when zionists started arriving from europe with their plan to ethnicly cleanse Palestine of its native population and to colonialise the land.



Do you believe we needed to hear the German side of the story about WWII and everything that happened during it?

Israel is stealing land. For some reason it was unaccpetable for Serbs to do so, but the international community generally gives a nod and a wink to Israel to carry on with its crimes.

There's no comparison. What's happening in Israel is a war for territory, or a land grab as you have essentially called it. The Jews in WW2 were unmercifully slaughtered for no reason other than being Jewish. Germany never came under attack from Jewish interests. Those backing the Jews never declared that Germany should be wiped off the map.

I never said Israel was right to carry on settlement building. But the quote back along from Hitchens was almost exactly how I feel. The Israelis are there now. Much like the unionists are in Northern Ireland. It's their home now as much as the Palestinians. No one has suggested where they would like Israelis to go if they believe they should leave. I do think the Palestinians should have their state as decreed by the UN and Israelis should stop building settlements immediately. What I am saying is this: the Palestinians have blood on their hands just as the Israelis do. They do not have the moral high ground.

As regards the blockades and security, there's the list of attacks by the 'innocent' Palestinian militias through the years. It's gone down year after year. So from their perspective their security is obviously working. You can make the argument that it's the civilians that get the brunt of it and they are the ones dying from all this bombing and shelling. But that's the way in every war. Many, many innocents died in the North too. It's not right, but it happens.

I'm not accusing anyone of being racist, but I do find it strange that whilst I would think, and hope, most would acknowledge that the IRA did some awful and reprehensible things in an almost identical situation, no one here will even acknowledge that about the Palestinians.

Nodin

No one has denied things happened which should not have. However they're an occupied people, badly armed, denied the protection of the law. The other crowd are a first world nuclear power backed by the last remaining superpower expanding their borders.

Nodin

Ronin247 wrote: »

There have been countless peace plans rejected by both sides,the 2002 peace plan basically wanted a return to all 1967 borders and the Palestinian people to be given the right of return.
Israel have agreed before to cede most if not all the territories from 1967 but the right of return is a big sticking point
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return.

So the 2002 Arab League proposed "peace plan" was, give us back any territory we lost in the 1967 wars and accept 4 million new citizens who hate you and we will be nicer.Cannot understand it being rejected.

And of course the peace talks where they essentially dropped the notion of the right to return altogether...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-expose-peace-concession
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/palestinians-10000-refugees-return-israel?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

token101

Nodin wrote: »

No one has denied things happened which should not have. However they're an occupied people, badly armed, denied the protection of the law. The other crowd are a first world nuclear power backed by the last remaining superpower expanding their borders.

It's a bit strange the way you're referring to terrorist atrocities as 'things that shouldn't have happened'. Israel never used nukes or even talked of it. The US aren't the last remaining superpower. Palestine are backed by much of Western Europe, Russia and China.

Nodin

token101 wrote: »

It's a bit strange the way you're referring to terrorist atrocities as 'things that shouldn't have happened'. Israel never used nukes or even talked of it..

Its an indicator of military technology, which is why I menioned it.

token101 wrote: »

The US aren't the last remaining superpower. Palestine are backed by much of Western Europe, Russia and China.

....fascinating. You might compare the benefits they've derived from this 'backing' with the benefits Israel has derived from its backer. I'd be interested to see the results.

Mr. Incognito

I find it Pretty sickening that Israel Apologists are here calling him a terrorist and bringing up people attacking Israel.

Here you have a man making a NON VIOLENT Protest, attacking no-one but himself and still people are smearing him with their own preconceptions.

I'd like if everyone in Israel followed his example.

guitarzero

Right, this word terrorist being thrown around, wft is a terrorist? Does it actually hold any meaning any more? Did it ever?

One group of people recruit, arm and deliver commands to attack an enemy. They wear some kind of camouflage, organize themselves in strategic groups and target certain people they deem as being a strategic target to debilitate the opposition.

The other do the exact same, if not worse, but are "Legitimate" according to those who grant legitimacy, which somehow gives them justification despite all of the mentioned above.

Whenever 'Terrorist' is used in any discussion I just switch off a bit, its so Fox Newsy.

later12

seamus wrote: »

...I can't see the Israelis feeling any pressure to release him. As far as they're concerned, if he dies than that's a result for them.

I don't understand this mentality.

I generally am more likely to take the Palestinian side than that of the Israelis in political discussions relating to the Israeli palestinian conflict, but I'm just curious as to what exactly could have led you to make that statement? (I'm just using you as an example, it was repeated elsewhere in the course of the thread).

Do people really believe that 'the Israelis' (as though they think and act en bloc) celebrate each Palestinian loss of life? Even when it is likely to even further damage their perception abroad?

I really don't buy that. I think that the Israeli authorities are possibly acting in an unhelpful and a typically regressive way toward this man's protest, but to suggest, as others have done, that they will celebrate or welcome his demise I don't think that's a very valid assumption to make, I think it is unhelpfully emotive.

Zebra3

token101 wrote: »

There's no comparison. What's happening in Israel is a war for territory, or a land grab as you have essentially called it.

It took just the second sentence for you to lie.

There is no war for territory in Israel. The zionists have already stolen that land.

Israel is illegally occupying and colonialising territory outside its internationally recognised borders.

It is engaged in a slow, long drawn out racist campaign to change the demographics of the West Bank. Bit by bit increase the population of their illegal colonies, bit by bit make life for the native population unbearable so they'll leave.

Israel has demolished over 12,000 Palestinian homes since occupying the West Bank in its ethnic cleansing campaign, yet the western media only tended to show it happening to the families of suicide bombers (as if that was some how acceptable), but I doubt the same thing happened to the family of Israeli überterrorist Baruch Goldstein.

lividduck

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I find it Pretty sickening that Israel Apologists are here calling him a terrorist and bringing up people attacking Israel.

Here you have a man making a NON VIOLENT Protest, attacking no-one but himself and still people are smearing him with their own preconceptions.

I'd like if everyone in Israel followed his example.

Each to their own view, to me this guy is a terrorist, and his suicide will cause more deaths and more carnage, he is no better than the scum who murdered the Israeli athlethes in Munich in 1974, or who blow up buses in tel Aviv.
What sickens me is the apologists for terrorism who can barely shroud their virulent anti semitism.

Einhard

lividduck wrote: »

Each to their own view, to me this guy is a terrorist, and his suicide will cause more deaths and more carnage, he is no better than the scum who murdered the Israeli athlethes in Munich in 1974, or who blow up buses in tel Aviv.
What sickens me is the apologists for terrorism who can barely shroud their virulent anti semitism.

Ummm don't think anyone is apologising for terrorism here. If you believe that this man deserves to be held without charge for the length of time that he is, then you're doing more damage to the notion of justice, a core tenet of Western democracy, than any terrorist could dream of.

And where's the virulent anti-semitism? I criticise Ireland sometimes- does that mean I'm virulently anti-Irish?

Zebra3

lividduck wrote: »

Each to their own view, to me this guy is a terrorist, and his suicide will cause more deaths and more carnage, he is no better than the scum who murdered the Israeli athlethes in Munich in 1974, or who blow up buses in tel Aviv.
What sickens me is the apologists for terrorism who can barely shroud their virulent anti semitism.

What about the scum who murdered Ahmed Bouchiki in Norway?

What about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre ?

Mr. Incognito

lividduck wrote: »

Each to their own view, to me this guy is a terrorist, and his suicide will cause more deaths and more carnage, he is no better than the scum who murdered the Israeli athlethes in Munich in 1974, or who blow up buses in tel Aviv.
What sickens me is the apologists for terrorism who can barely shroud their virulent anti semitism.

Wow,

Just wow.

You sir are utterly incapable of rational thought or debate or objectivity.

Innocent Man, starving himself to death. You can bandy anything around that you want.

Its like this:

This has NOTHING to do with any of that other nonsense, Utterly irrelvant crap. Anti Semetism? What is anti semetism? I am against Israel's genocide. That is Israels POLITICAL Agenda. It has nothing to do with it's religious views?

Why people always follow the same path

Israel commits X Atrocity

Holocaust
Holocaust
Anti Semetisim

It gets old

Zebra3

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Wow,

Just wow.

You sir are utterly incapable of rational thought or debate or objectivity.

Innocent Man, starving himself to death. You can bandy anything around that you want.

Its like this:

This has NOTHING to do with any of that other nonsense, Utterly irrelvant crap. Anti Semetism? What is anti semetism? I am against Israel's genocide. That is Israels POLITICAL Agenda. It has nothing to do with it's religious views?

Why people always follow the same path

Israel commits X Atrocity

Holocaust
Holocaust
Anti Semetisim

It gets old

He doesn't even know what a semite is.

cloptrop

ok I know very little on this conflict I believe the palestinians used to live there then the isrealis moved in. War ensues.
Where do the taxes go? Is this a movement of people war , eg we dont want jews living next to us ,
or a money war , eg pay your taxes to isreal?

wes

Ronin247 wrote: »

There have been countless peace plans rejected by both sides,the 2002 peace plan basically wanted a return to all 1967 borders and the Palestinian people to be given the right of return.

Except that it doesn't ask for the right to return at all. Read the text, and you will see the following:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1844214.stm

b. Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian Refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.

It says a "just solution", so your claim is easily disproved fiction, as the text does not say what you claim it does. A "just solution" is a deliberate choice on there part, as it could mean just as easily mean compensation for the refugees, and some limited right of return on the basis of family reunification, or various other solutions. Simply put, Israel made up a reason to reject, and anyone who has read the text would see that right away.

Ronin247 wrote: »

Israel have agreed before to cede most if not all the territories from 1967 but the right of return is a big sticking point
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return.

Israel hasn't agreed to give up that actually. They want to keep most of there settlements and all of Jerusalem, which would make a viable Palestinian state impossible:

Israel proposes West Bank barrier as border

--SNIP--
[The officials said Israeli envoy Yitzak Molcho told his Palestinian counterpart that Israel wants to keep east Jerusalem and consolidate Jewish settlements behind the separation barrier, which slices close to 10 percent off the West Bank. They spoke on condition of anonymity, citing strict no-leaks rules by Jordanian mediators.

The proposal would fall short of what the Palestinians seem likely to accept, especially because it would leave Jerusalem on the "Israeli" side of the border.
--SNIP--

So again what your saying is untrue.

Ronin247 wrote: »

So the 2002 Arab League proposed "peace plan" was, give us back any territory we lost in the 1967 wars and accept 4 million new citizens who hate you and we will be nicer.Cannot understand it being rejected.

Except the peace plan says no such thing.Simply put you made something up, and I have shown as per the actual text, that the peace plan does not say what you falsely claim.

Also, Israel has no right to the Palestinian territories, which they stole in 1967. Plenty of UN resolution etc show the illegality of any Israeli claims to any of it.

So basically, Israel make up a reason, that anyone who bothered to read the text of the offer would know was a lie, and then you present the blatant and easily disproved lie as an actual reason for Israel's complete and utter contempt for the peace offer. Add to this the constant ongoing land theft, and its pretty clear that Israel does not want peace, but rather land, and to state other wise is to deny reality, and to make excuse for Israel ongoing role in perpetuating the conflict.

Mr. Incognito

cloptrop wrote: »

ok I know very little on this conflict I believe the palestinians used to live there then the isrealis moved in. War ensues.
Where do the taxes go? Is this a movement of people war , eg we dont want jews living next to us ,
or a money war , eg pay your taxes to isreal?

LOL

in Short, Brits establish a "homeland" for displaced Jews from Europe in Palestine, they murder in or around 200,000 of the locals to do it, once the state is established it has a right of return for jews all over the world. They systematically isolate the native populations into the west bank, the gaza strip, and systematically oppress, starve, blame and marginalise them allowing them no right to vote, no participation in the state but grant a certain number work permits to come clean toilets a few days a week on minimum wage. They systematically bulldose their homes without warning to make way for new Jewish Settlers.

The locals are miffed and take up arms, the Israeli government divides any revolutions by signing accords with the weakest factions over and over, these weak factions want power and foreign money so they sign up but of course without popular support cannot get anything sold to their own populations. Then Israel uses these accords as "proof" that the Palestinians are reneging on agreements.


Its a long long history, read up on it

Zebra3

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

LOL

in Short, Brits establish a "homeland" for displaced Jews from Europe in Palestine, they murder in or around 200,000 of the locals to do it, once the state is established it has a right of return for jews all over the world. They systematically isolate the native populations into the west bank, the gaza strip, and systematically oppress, starve, blame and marginalise them allowing them no right to vote, no participation in the state but grant a certain number work permits to come clean toilets a few days a week on minimum wage. They systematically bulldose their homes without warning to make way for new Jewish Settlers.

The locals are miffed and take up arms, the Israeli government divides any revolutions by signing accords with the weakest factions over and over, these weak factions want power and foreign money so they sign up but of course without popular support cannot get anything sold to their own populations. Then Israel uses these accords as "proof" that the Palestinians are reneging on agreements.


Its a long long history, read up on it

And all of it backed/funded by the honourable peace-loving Americans.

lividduck

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Wow,

Just wow.

You sir are utterly incapable of rational thought or debate or objectivity.

Innocent Man, starving himself to death. You can bandy anything around that you want.

Its like this:

This has NOTHING to do with any of that other nonsense, Utterly irrelvant crap. Anti Semetism? What is anti semetism? I am against Israel's genocide. That is Israels POLITICAL Agenda. It has nothing to do with it's religious views?

Why people always follow the same path

Israel commits X Atrocity

Holocaust
Holocaust
Anti Semetisim

It gets old

Wow,
I call Khader Adnan what he is, a terrorist and you get upset.
This guy was a spokesman for Islamic Jihad, look them up, look at what they have done and stop making this guy out to be some kind of hero.
He is determined to be a martyr and know his suicide will lead to more violence.
jihadists like him are a danger to all of us.

lividduck

khadar Adnan is a senior member of Islamic Jihad and a former spokesman for that Group which is classed as a Terrorist group by The US, The EU, Canada , Australia and others.
Here are just some of the atrocities that he and his mates have claimed responsibility for:
August 1987: The PIJ claimed responsibility for a shooting that killed the commander of the Israeli military police in the Gaza Strip.[2]

• July 1989: Attack of Egged bus 405 along the Jerusalem-Tel Aviv Highway, at least 14 people killed (including two Canadians and one American) and dozens more wounded. Though intended to be a suicide attack, the perpetrator survived.[14]

• February 4, 1990: A bus carrying Israeli tourists in Egypt was attacked. The attack left 11 people, including nine Israelis, dead and 17 others injured.[15]

• December 1993: Killed an Israeli reservist, David Mashrati, during a public bus shooting.

• April 1994: A car bomb aboard a public bus killed nine people and injured fifty.

• January 1995: Suicide bombing attack near Netanya killing eighteen soldiers and one civilian.[16]

• April 1995: Suicide bomb in Netzarim and Kfar-Darom. The first bomb killed eight people and injured over 30 on an Israel bus. The second attack was a car bomb that injured twelve people.

• March 1996: A Tel Aviv shopping mall is the site of another suicide bombing killing twenty and injuring seventy five.

• November 2000: A car bomb in Jerusalem at an outdoor market killed two people and injured ten.[17]

• June 2001: Suicide bomb attack at a Tel Aviv nightclub killing twenty-one people.[16]

• March 2002: A suicide bomber killed seven people and injured approximately thirty aboard a bus travelling from Tel Aviv to Nazareth.[17]

• June 2002: Eighteen people are killed and fifty injured in a suicide attack at the Meggido Junction.[16]

• July 2002: A double suicide attack killed five people and injured 40 in Tel Aviv.

• November 2002: 12 soldiers and security personnel killed in an Ambush in Hebron.[18]

• May 2003: Three people killed and eighty-three injured in a suicide bombing at a shopping mall in Afula.

• August 2003: A suicide bomber killed twenty-one people and injured over one hundred on a bus in Jerusalem.[17]

• October 2003: Suicide bomber killed twenty-two and injured sixty at a Haifa restaurant.

• October 2005: A bomb detonated in a Hedera market was responsible for killing five people.

• April 2006: Suicide bomb in Tel Aviv killed eleven.

• January 2007: Both the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the PIJ claim responsibility for a suicide bombing at an Eliat bakery that killed three.[16]

wes

lividduck wrote: »

khadar Adnan is a senior member of Islamic Jihad and a former spokesman for that Group which is classed as a Terrorist group by The US, The EU, Canada , Australia and others.
Here are just some of the atrocities that he and his mates have claimed responsibility for:

Do you have a shred of evidence that Khadar Adnan was responsible for any of that. Oh wait you don't. Also, care to tell me what he accused of doing, oh wait you can't either. Looks to me, that you have nothing at all, and it shows how farcical your position is.

Also, I could easily list a huge number of Israeli atrocities, and I take you would support the internment of any Israeli government spokes person on that basis, right? After all if you didn't then that would make you a massive hypocrite.....

Nodin

lividduck wrote: »

khadar Adnan is a senior member of Islamic Jihad and a former spokesman for that Group which is classed as a Terrorist group by The US, The EU, Canada , Australia and others.
.......

Then why isn't he charged with a crime and sentenced?

lividduck

wes wrote: »

Do you have a shred of evidence that Khadar Adnan was responsible for any of that. Oh wait you don't. Also, care to tell me what he accused of doing, oh wait you can't either. Looks to me, that you have nothing at all, and it shows how farcical your position is.

Also, I could easily list a huge number of Israeli atrocities, and I take you would support the internment of any Israeli government spokes person on that basis, right? After all if you didn't then that would make you a massive hypocrite.....

By his own admission and by that of islamic jihad he is a member of that organization. He is also a former spokesperson for that organization. Therefore he is as responsible as if he had personally carried out the attacks.
I have no sympathy for those who carry out such atrocities as those carried out by these terrorists.

Mr. Incognito

wes wrote: »

The Israeli's (and tbh the US and many other Western countries), don't particularly care about the lives of Palestinians. They will claim he is a terrorists or come up with some other lie to smear him, and say he deserved to die or some other excuse. He won't be released and he will sadly die, and his name will be probably be smeared with all sorts of lies.

lividduck khadar Adnan is a senior member of Islamic Jihad

This :rolleyes:

wes

lividduck wrote: »

By his own admission and by that of islamic jihad he is a member of that organization. He is also a former spokesperson for that organization. Therefore he is as responsible as if he had personally carried out the attacks.

No he isn't and he isn't a spokes person anymore, so jailing him on the basis of past association with out any charge, make your position doubly farcical. You know you don't have a leg to stand.

lividduck wrote: »

I have no sympathy for those who carry out such atrocities as those carried out by these terrorists.

I have no sympathy for either Israeli or Palestinian terrorists, but unless someone was actually involved, holding them guilty for the actions of other even when they are a member of the same organization is absurd, and goes against any concept of justice.

Quite frankly, your logic is exactly the same as Islamic Jihad who justify attacks on Israeli civilians on the basis that they are all members of the IDF at some point. So for you to condemn them, when your own logic is identical is quite frankly amazing imho.

bwatson

Zebra3 wrote: »

It took just the second sentence for you to lie.

There is no war for territory in Israel. The zionists have already stolen that land.

Israel is illegally occupying and colonialising territory outside its internationally recognised borders.

It is engaged in a slow, long drawn out racist campaign to change the demographics of the West Bank. Bit by bit increase the population of their illegal colonies, bit by bit make life for the native population unbearable so they'll leave.

Israel has demolished over 12,000 Palestinian homes since occupying the West Bank in its ethnic cleansing campaign, yet the western media only tended to show it happening to the families of suicide bombers (as if that was some how acceptable), but I doubt the same thing happened to the family of Israeli überterrorist Baruch Goldstein.