A Memory of Light general discussion [SPOILERS FROM POST 171 ONWARDS!]

martin g

matrim wrote: »

Rand and Galad? It was revealed a few books ago that Tigrane (Galads mother ) was Rands mother

I dont remember that part, was reading some of the books on a beach in Thailand so maybe had my mind on other things A re read might be in order...

nibtrix

martin g wrote: »

I dont remember that part, was reading some of the books on a beach in Thailand so maybe had my mind on other things A re read might be in order...

If you run out of patience in some of the later books, I highly recommend the re-read on tor.com. There's a synopsis of each chapter followed by commentary on what happened. I wasn't going to get my reread finished before amol came out and the reread was very handy to skip over some parts of books 8-11. It's also amazing how many things I glossed over that turned out to be significant later!

Trojan

Not sure if I'd give it a 6/10 or a 7/10 (the ebook fiasco probably tilts me toward the 6).

It's a decent read and leaves me reasonably satisfied. With such a huge and complex series I did expect unanswered questions. The pacing of the book was well done - it's got to be tough to pace something around an entire battle like that.

I thought Mat would have more surprises to bring to bear in the battle, particularly towards the end. I think he didn't seem to have quite the same level of tactical brilliance he showed in other books.

I didn't like how the Aviendha visions seemed to be just written off. Seemed like an editorial decision.

Moridin's body? That seems a bit lame, and also surely that would cause some trouble.

More main characters should have died. And leave poor Bela alone

I agree with the above posters who compared it to a Gemmell ending - the battle is still going and you're wondering how it could possibly be ended in a couple of pages.

I thought the whole thing could do with an epilogue or at least a more drawn out conclusion.

Overall, pretty good - it didn't ruin the series, which is a real danger with final books, but it could have been better.

I think Sanderson has done an amazing job with his contribution to WoT, it was a huge ask to pull that entire thing together even in 3 books and he's done a super job.

AnCapaillMor

I heard something about an epilogue that will go into a book of short stories for charity. Also heard the wife is working on encyclopedia that might fill in some gaps.

Agree on the moridin bit, no explanation on how it was done, we never hard of any weaves like it. Plus you'd think him going missing would be a bad thing and be noticed, how did cadsuane recognise him.

As for aviendhas viewing I think it was a,what if, morraine saw 3 possibilities with Rand. There's theories that the old woman was aviendha warning them to change their ways. Rand couldve changed the pattern too.

martin g

Trojan, your right about the battle scenes. Sanderson said it himself that he had to get people to help him write the scenes as he has no tactical experience and wanted to get it right. Jordan would of done a better job of it as he was in Vietnam and would know how to portray it in a different way...

I think he tried to get around it as well by having

demandred or whichever forsaken came from shara, actually say outright "oh he is amazing at tactics i've never seen his equal"

On the other hand, he did go into quite a lot of detail with the

sabotage scenes - those were very specific orders being given and very specific details. I don't think jordan necessarily did better than that at all, and sanderson did it well

AnCapaillMor

Dunno about Jordan and battle scenes, when you think throughout all the books with Jordan there was very few battle scenes, dumais well being the only one of note, every other one was build up, battle begins then it goes on to the aftermath.

EGriff

I found the epilogue way too short. I guess they'll cash in on that later. Though I suppose some of it was covered in the

visions rand cooked up when he was "fighting" the dark one.

I would have liked it to go on a bit longer and have them talk about their plans for the future. The series itself dragged on painfully at times and then it all ended in a rush.

AnCapaillMor

matrim wrote: »

It's not explained but I would think that it's something to do with how during his fight with the dark one he was directly manipulating the pattern. At one stage it was described as if he was almost channelling the pattern.

He might remember some of this and now be able to do it.

The more i think on it and cadsuane acknowledging him and doing nothing, i'm really beginning to like the possibilites. she didn't spend all that time trying to teach him to laugh and cry for the final battle but for after it, Rand pre the end of book 12 with the ability to channel the pattern. I reckon she was close to Gitara Moroso and that was her task, stay hidden and wait for the dragon reborn to announce himself.

ixoy

Done - and it only took me nearly twenty years! Light!

In the end I read the hardback version as any other version I found was a little bit.. untidy. Harriet's stupid decision has caused me wrist ache! It was fairly clear Sanderson didn't agree with it but there's little he could have done about it.
As to 12% of sales being e-books.. Well I'm not sure how accurate it is but I would be very surprised if that percentage wasn't a lot higher for readers of the sci-fi/fantasy genres whose book shelves can only take so much...

Overall I'm happy with it and Sanderson's handling of events:

The 190-page chapter, "The Last Battle" was handled well. Not sure how well Jordan would have been able to handle those tactics either - just because he fought in Vietnam hardly makes him capable of handling a military campaign.

Just like in the Mistborn series he really ratcheted up the stakes and made it believable that they could lose. This in spite of the fact that we knew the world didn't end given Loial's notes were at the start of the chapter. Very good pacing here.

Mostly happy with the way in which all characters had a role although Nynaeve didn't have much to do. Min's role was also fairly small. Really enjoyed Pervara and Androl's scenes. The Aes Sedai weren't such complete b*tches as they were in the earlier books - and that includes Cadsuane whose send off I liked.
Still the body count should have been higher for the Last Battle. I wasn't expecting Egwene but I think Faile should have stayed dead. It would have been a tad dark.

Epilogue itself was a bit rushed but I don't think the ending as such (up to the point at which Rand seals up the Bore). We just seemed to get very little time with goodbyes. Given we've been well over ten thousand pages with these crowds a couple more chapters wouldn't have hurt.

I wonder then how much of this ending, including character deaths, did Sanderson have a hand in?

nibtrix

ixoy wrote: »

I wonder then how much of this ending, including character deaths, did Sanderson have a hand in?

From interviews I read it seems most of the detail regarding who lived and who died was mapped out by Robert Jordan. Sanderson wanted one character that he felt was his own, which ended up being Androl, and he wrote him in to do some things which were listed as "must be done in the last book" but it wasn't specified who had to do them.

ixoy

nibtrix wrote: »

From interviews I read it seems most of the detail regarding who lived and who died was mapped out by Robert Jordan. Sanderson wanted one character that he felt was his own, which ended up being Androl, and he wrote him in to do some things which were listed as "must be done in the last book" but it wasn't specified who had to do them.

Interesting then that Androl was one of my favourite parts of the book. Wanted more of him. Shows how sometimes an author can invest more in their own creation rather than working with someone else's. Seemed more passion there at times.

nibtrix

ixoy wrote: »

Interesting then that Androl was one of my favourite parts of the book. Wanted more of him. Shows how sometimes an author can invest more in their own creation rather than working with someone else's. Seemed more passion there at times.

I suppose with a character that was only going to have a short story arc and was there to achieve some very specific things, it would be easy to write them as likeable and fairly kick-ass. There was no need to give him any down side as we didn't need chapters and chapters of character development over time. That said, he was a great character and I was happy anytime the pov switched to him!

matrim

An interesting point I read on the Pervera and Androl scenes.

It's possible that thier 2 way bond gives a hint as to how Rand survived in Moridins body. When they are linked, Pervera seems to get Androls talent and there is a moment where she almost feels like she is losing herself. This could be a hint that because of the Modiin/ Rand bond type thing and through the link of both the True Power and One Power, Rand was able to take over Moridin

AnCapaillMor

matrim wrote: »

An interesting point I read on the Pervera and Androl scenes.

It's possible that thier 2 way bond gives a hint as to how Rand survived in Moridins body. When they are linked, Pervera seems to get Androls talent and there is a moment where she almost feels like she is losing herself. This could be a hint that because of the Modiin/ Rand bond type thing and through the link of both the True Power and One Power, Rand was able to take over Moridin

there was definately something happening after the sammael battle where the balefire streams intercepted each other, you'd the 2 of them popping into each others dreams and moridin seemed less insane\evil at times, that discussion about how he knows the dark one will end everything and he wants oblivion, plus the releasing of moghedien and lanfear(speaking of whom, that was a thoroughly underwhelming end), he seemed to have stopped torturing them too.

I thought some of the scenes with the male bad dudes were odd, Slayer was showing regret and dislike for the dark one, morridin was changing and i got the same impression with Demandred when he was looking at his sharan queen. Thought there was something with that then it went nowhere. Could be a laughing and crying rand affecting the pattern.


At ixoy.
As for the epilogue, don't get me started on the gemmilesque end. I must read the gathering storm foreword again but didn't sanderson say that Jordan had already written the final chapters. I also heard that one of the first things jordan wrote was the final chapter and began from there. It'd probably explain the quick end with open storylines as all there was at that time was the dark one battle the seanchan, the knocked up queen, 3 lovers etc, the black\white towers etc hadn't existed yet.

Faile i was full sure she was going to be a darkfriend, turning to the dark to ensure perrin stays alive etc, when she got sent for the horn i was convinced she was one. She had to stay alive though, with her alive i'm pretty sure Perrin is now king of saldea and as big a pain in the A as she was, she was perfect for him.

Yeah totally agree on the final battle, there was that bit, bela dead:(, olver surrounded by trollocs, brigitte just got beheaded, elaines about to be gutted but the children will be born(making mins viewing true).

anyone else gutted by Siuans death? she was the one Aes sedai i actually liked.

ixoy

Great post here on tor.com that answers loads of questions that were unclear and, in some cases, Sanderson doesn't even know the answer.

And yes, Jordan pretty much wrote the epilogue so Sanderson hadn't much flexibility.

Only read the link above if you've finished the book but it's definitely worth checking out.

AnCapaillMor

Fecksake I'll need to pick up that short story and encyclopedia now.

Trojan

Some analysis of AMOL that I thoroughly agree with (

contains spoilers

):

http://www.readandfindout.com/wheeloftime/messageboard/271260/

The whole discussion thread is interesting.

ArthurG

I'm away with work the last 2 weeks, bought the book before I left home, and have been reading it slowly, and finished it tonight. I read it slowly to savour every moment of it and I enjoyed every moment of it. It's been 20 years since I started the series, I could take 2 weeks to complete it.

I know some people are a bit dissatisfied in how certain things ended up, but I can't think of a more fitting end to the series. Thinking about Jordan's writing style, he is probably delighting in the frustration those few unanswered questions are causing amongst fans.

Reading the book, I found myself stopping on so many occasions completely overcome with emotion. Even before we got to the last battle, so many beautiful things happened.

Tam teaching Rand to use his sword 1 handed.

. Brought a tear to my eye, even with the awful foreshadowing it suggested.

I totally totally loved the entire Androl/Pevara dynamic

. Who have thought that a relatively new character could have become one of my favourites in the entire series?? So many poignant moments.

Rand making Merrilor flower

.

Then the Last Battle. Jesus what an emotional roller coaster.

Egwene, oh Egwene. Please no.
Compulsion on the Great Generals (nasty)
Gawyn
Siuan. Oh light not her.
Kiruna, Alanna, so many Aes Sedai we've read about for so many years
Birgitte
Gareth Bryne.
The Ogier war song, so beautiful and so horrible
Raen and Ila sorting through the dead, and questioning their beliefs
On a happier note, Emarin, the first gay Asha'man

I can go on. Say what you will about the writing, but these people have been part of my life for over 20 years now, and the end of their story has really really left me feeling empty. I don't thinking can ever go back and read all those books again.

Some things I would have liked to see:

Setalle Anan survived it seems, I so wanted to see her healed
What happened to Faolin (not Falion). Did I miss her? I thought Min had a viewing about her
Was Morgase killed? Was that on the horse that Mellor showed Elayne just before he tried to kill her?

I'm a crazed mix of emotions right now. I loved the story despite any shortcomings, and while I'm delighted we have finished finally, it feels like a massive part of my life has ended. I for one thank Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson for doing what they did. It will stay with me forever.

Trojan

Tidied up my AMOL review (a lot!) and included comment on the ebook delay & review bombing:

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/509428404

imitation

Here are my thoughts

Over all I enjoyed it a lot, and its nice to have the series rounded off. I started reading about 2 years ago, so I'm fortunate that I don't have to try and catch up again to read it.

There is a lot of battle tactics in the book, and I can't help but feel some of that energy could have be used to close out more of the sub plots.

Mat was definitely my favorite Character, a typical rogue but the way his interactions with other people were written were pretty awesome. I do think though they streched out his insults to Tuon a bit much, its pretty obvious that he would have to start playing along with the Seanchan ways.

Perrin was ok, the slayer fight was drawn out too much really, especially after he found out the forsaken were putting compulsion on people he seemed happy to zip about almost but not quite hitting slayer in the face. Whats the deal as well with being in the dream being an "Evil" thing, not to mention the fact being able to move yourself in an out of the dream in the flesh was something only darkfriends could do judging by what Lanfear said. Poor Lanfear btw, slayer took like 3-4 books of chasing to die, Lanfear gets a paragraph !

Rand didn't get a huge amount of air time really, the effect he has on the pattern, blooming flowers etc is pretty awesome (or maybe its to do with that song he murmurs?) and the trap he springs at the end is nice.

Felt sorry for egwene, she kind of got the booby prize of being the one to actually sacrifice themselves to save the pattern. I didn't feel to sorry for Gawyn or Galad when they got caned by Demandred, he kind of felt like a meat grinder by the time Lan got to him too.

Was quite sorry for Suian, she was a pretty awesome character, would have been amazing if not for the awful fisherman curses.

Likewise for the fallen generals, they got a very short shocker send off, in fact so was Suian and Brigette, not particularly fair considering Demandred gets like 3 epic duals, while the legend of the horn get a random beheading of doom. One or two I can understand, but you'd think more of them would get a heroic ended instead of a couple of lines.

Ending wise I felt it was very rushed, Mashdar feels kind of tacked on as something as it was a little to big to forget about.

I found Rands body transference just plain weird to be honest, I would have no problems with him living, or even dieing, but I think him going off on his own, leaving the 3 girls probably for the most part considering what they will all be doing, and leaving Tam, Mat and Perrin none the wiser and grieving, was really out of character. The girls not displaying emotion also didn't really fit too well, surely they could muster a few tears having survived the trauma of the battle, the fact the face of the Rand they know is gone, and they will probably barely see him.

The hints of him being able to channel the true power are pretty weird too, maybe fine if there was to be a follow up series, but its pretty likely it will be finished up now it leaves a bit of a bitter taste in the mouth.

It could really have done with about 100-200 more pages, and a small prologue just to show how things were going to develop for the characters now the last battle was over (no Tolkien style appendix of when they die though please !). I do feel Sandersons own characters could have taken a bit less of the limelight considering how the ending was so rushed and other plot lines were left dangling..

ixoy

imitation wrote: »

I do feel Sandersons own characters could have taken a bit less of the limelight considering how the ending was so rushed and other plot lines were left dangling..

Yes but the ending was Jordan's. If it's rushed it's because Sanderson had to work with what he had been given. It's a shame really.

Aiel

I finally finished the last book tonight.Im not sure how i type things here and have the spoiler parts blocked(help please) out so i wont say as much as i want to.
Overall i was very satisfied with the book.The last battle itself was intense and as epic as i thought it would be.
I cant believe the series is over now.When i was going through some tough times as a teenager i remember locking myself in my room and escaping into the world of the W.O.T for hours on end.As somebody else said i also feel a part of my life has ended now.An incredible series,bravo Jordan and Sanderson:).

Trojan

You can post a spoiler by (spoiler)putting spoiler tags around it(/spoiler) - except using square brackets like these: [] instead of the parentheses ().

Tenger

keane2097 wrote: »

Deserves to lose a rake of money for trying to massage the paper version sales imo.

Well I can understand the widow making this decision from an emotional viewpoint. Sanderson says he tried to convince her otherwise. I doubt at this point that money is an issue for her.

Trojan

Tenger wrote: »

Well I can understand the widow making this decision from an emotional viewpoint. Sanderson says he tried to convince her otherwise. I doubt at this point that money is an issue for her.

From what I've read, she made the decision in order to protect his "legacy", i.e. of NYtimes bestsellers.

What her actions actually did is damage his legacy, because she pissed off a boatload of his fans and brought down the average review by 2 stars on Amazon (to what I feel is actually a true reflection of the quality of the book, ironically).

It was a ridiculous decision and massively disrespectful to the fans.

keane2097

Tenger wrote: »

Well I can understand the widow making this decision from an emotional viewpoint. Sanderson says he tried to convince her otherwise. I doubt at this point that money is an issue for her.

Yeah she did it to artificially massage the NY Times bestsellers list, which is a pretty horrible way to behave in any case.

Certainly damages the legacy to have those methods associated with it, as they certainly will be thanks to the backlash she caused.

Tenger

keane2097 wrote: »

Yeah she did it to artificially massage the NY Times bestsellers list, which is a pretty horrible way to behave in any case.

Certainly damages the legacy to have those methods associated with it, as they certainly will be thanks to the backlash she caused.

I agree. While I can see where she is coming from I think that there is enough legacy there that the series does not need to get #1 for the last book. I'm sure it would have been a decent add-on to the legacy to have "most downloaded ebook" added to the plaudits.