Ireland wastes 70 million on barbarisim

overshoot · 18-02-2012 3:25pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

cattle density is also higher

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/163/5/159.extractIs the problem that our badgers are different, or maybe it's something else like the way we treat cattle?

Here is a key point badgers are territorial, they don't travel widely.
Having only one report of TB in Switzerland in the last 60 years shows that the infection isn't transmitted effectively from badger to badger. At the worst they act as a static reservoir.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0147957112000100

Vaccination of badgers using an M. bovis strain bacille Calmette–Guérin (BCG) vaccine could potentially be an option in the national TB eradication strategy. Wildlife vaccination has been used successfully for other diseases in wildlife species, and may have a role to play in reducing M. bovis transmission at the wildlife–livestock interface. Research to date has provided evidence that BCG is protective in badgers, and a parenteral badger BCG vaccine has been licensed in the UK.

yea but its a percentage incidence, not a number of cases. so its 4/5x the number of cases per 1000 cows
and thats what i was trying to say earlier about their nature, they never run and they are very strong and well capable of doing damage against a bigger animal which makes them more of a danger than a dozen of some other carrier

the article i quote also mentioned vaccines also, something about them not being developed enough, definately one for the future but not suitable right now. an oral delivery system isnt expected until 2014 with the first positive effects in 2019. without culling over a 9 year period bovine tb increase 72% in england. considering its at least 7 years for a vaccine to show any effect, surely a similar rise could also be expected if culling was to cease

pbthevet · 18-02-2012 4:03pm

@ steddyeddy

Yes you are completely correct in stating that cattle are the biggest vectors of tb in ireland, it is a predominantly bovine desiese anyway. The badger is unfortunatly an innocent bystander in the whole cycle that unfortunatly due to economic constraints and the views of the public with regard to the lack of results being produced from the tb eradication scheme here cannot be overlooked.

Basically everything has been done that can be done (apart from bovine vaccination) with regards controling the desiese in cattle here.
- cattle are all tagged (identified)
- herd units are formed (ie farms with herd numbers allocated)
- cattle from one herd are not allowed move and be mixed with other cattle from another herd without first being tested as tb free
- annual testing and culling of tb reactors

The vaccine issue is not up for debate, its a european ban. The ban is due to trade effects mostly. Outside ireland and uk tb is not really that big a problem in the rest of eu and as with the current banking crisis we are learning that one glove doesnt fit all but thats the way it is for now and we cant change it or we'd be placed at a trade dissadvantage.

The other issue is even with all the control steps cattle from one herd can still meet and greet cattle from the neighbour over fences etc. there were and maybe still are grants for farmers to build biosecurity fences (ie fences that are 3 metres apart) but most farmers are reluctant to build such fences for obvious reasons, you loose just way too much land.

As regards the badger. When the eradication program began and speaking in general terms now so forgive me here the levels of tb in the cattle population began to fall. This continued but instead of the desiese being eradicated like one would expect a plateau level was reached and it just wouldnt budge. This went on for years and it got to a point where farmers and the public were starting to loose faith in the system and the money being spent on it. Anyways to cut a long winded story short it was decided to see what was going on and this led to the discovery that the badger population and deer populations also harbouered high levels of tb and both were acting as a source of reintroducing tb to tb free farms (not exclusivly now - obvious the cow controls slipped up now and then and a farmer wud buy a tb reactor by mistake) but the badger and deer tb had to be controlled.

The deer bit was easy due to geography, but the badger bit is national. Badgers are not the cause of tb in cattle but they are a resevoir population.

We have a choice, continue as we were, ignoring the badger influence and just accepting the plateau level of tb in the national herd or we take steps to control the badger tb aswell.

Obviously we know what happened and badger cull programs began. This has lowered the number of reactors seen in the last ten years. But we are still not at zero. Probably never will be but millions of euro are being saved by reducing the loses in cattle. At the end of the day the whole point is to reduce the loses of cattle. Less cattle reactors means less waste and also reduces the risk of cattle to cattle spread.

But the badger conrol elements are vital to the scheme and ignoring it is impossible.

So culling badgers has to continue despite the faults with the system. Killing an animal no matter what type isnt nice and never will be but its the benifits produced that have to be weighed up beside it to justify it. We now also have badger vaccination, this will definatly help but unfortunatly its very slow and will take years for it to produce effects but its worth it on badger welfare grounds. So both the cull and vaccinaton need to continue side by side.

If we get tb down to near gone levels in cattle this will surely also mean a reduction in tb in badgers. This then will be the day when culling both can stop or at least be reduced to a very low level with both farmers and badgers being equally happy.

This is just my opinion but i hope it helps explain the why a little. At the end of the day the whole thing is about saving money and we have to be realistic. Tb in ireland has gone on long enough and we need to move forward and i believe we are doing that and the results speak for themselves.

Lawrence1895 · 18-02-2012 4:05pm

syklops wrote: »

AFAIK, the bear and the wolf are, but both are now extinct, in Ireland at least, cause of the other natural predator us. Or the British

I suppose, a couple of bears and wolves would be a bit cheaper than 70 million?

downwithpeace · 18-02-2012 4:12pm

Lars1916 wrote: »

I suppose, a couple of bears and wolves would be a bit cheaper than 70 million?

I think one or two people might object to the idea.

Lawrence1895 · 18-02-2012 4:16pm

downwithpeace wrote: »

I think one or two people might object to the idea.

It might not be known to everybody, that bears and wolves don't cause any harm to humans, if you leave them alone, doing their own business somewhere deep in the woods

downwithpeace · 18-02-2012 4:21pm

Lars1916 wrote: »

It might not be known to everybody, that bears and wolves don't cause any harm to humans, if you leave them alone, doing their own business somewhere deep in the woods

I know, lived around wild bears for a long time and never had an issue, people here might be worried about kitty becoming dinner :eek: (Not that I'm being serious, just found the idea of wild bears funny :P )

Lawrence1895 · 18-02-2012 4:47pm

downwithpeace wrote: »

I know, lived around wild bears for a long time and never had an issue, people here might be worried about kitty becoming dinner :eek: (Not that I'm being serious, just found the idea of wild bears funny :P )

Nice experience, I suppose

As if kitty would be of any interest to a bear, don't think so :pac:

Capt'n Midnight · 19-02-2012 2:49am

What effect did culling the entire UK herd during foot and mouth have on TB and other cattle diseases ?

Doc Ruby · 19-02-2012 3:07am

Lars1916 wrote: »

It might not be known to everybody, that bears and wolves don't cause any harm to humans, if you leave them alone, doing their own business somewhere deep in the woods

Wolves maybe, but bears are evil bastards if you catch them on a bad day. Polar bears are among the very few animals that actively stalk and kill humans, and they're pretty good at it too. This is what a bear looks like without the cuddly fur and I can't tell you the horrors I had to struggle through whilst looking for "shaved bear" with safesearch turned off.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 19-02-2012 3:32am

I know a young badger by the name of Carmine who my mate keeps in his pet farm. They're quite an misunderstood creature, Once tamed to the human hand they display fondness and affection.

steddyeddy · 19-02-2012 7:34pm

overshoot wrote: »

right hopefully this is my last contribution to a lad whose references in predomently 5 year old or more bbc links
(edit- any wierdly placed numers there are the references from the quoted piece bibliography, boards changes their size and i aint fixing them, id say click the link tho the graphs put things fairly clearly)

http://www.bovinetb.info/index.php

NI levels - 9.17%
Gb - 6.87%
ROI - 5.72%

so there are 2.5 times the amount of badgers in SW england than all of your precious scotland and look at the enormous levels of tb there, 4-5x our own!

note the huge rise in TB after the culling of badgers was effectively stopped

now you may have notice the low levels of Tb in New Zealand guess why they say that is... yep you guessed it one of the three main reasons, wildlife control!

last updates -
in fairness typing that is a poor way to spend christmas

Hey overshoot sorry for the delay. All those figures are from defra I assume. The very department that has been accused of twisting its figures. It doesnt take into account herd density or comaprative size of herds compared to irelands. Now as for the links as to why culling doesnt work:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/11/badger-culling-ineffective-krebs

Thats a link to an article in which badger culling is described as ineffective by lord krebs who advised the trial culling initially. 2011

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/06/29/rsbl.2011.0554.short

A scientific paper indicating that badger culling decreases tb locally but increases tb in nearby herbs.

Now I can safely say the cattle are the primary source of tb and overstocking and close proximity to other cattle are by far the biggest causes of the spread of tb. This ridiculous attitude to kill any non domesticated irish wildlife is costing the taxpayer money, its cruel and needless. Basing any scientific eradication of a bacteria on your hate for a particular animal is disgracful. One particular chap here advocated the criminal method of pouring slurry down the set.

steddyeddy · 19-02-2012 7:37pm

pbthevet wrote: »

@ steddyeddy

Yes you are completely correct in stating that cattle are the biggest vectors of tb in ireland, it is a predominantly bovine desiese anyway. The badger is unfortunatly an innocent bystander in the whole cycle that unfortunatly due to economic constraints and the views of the public with regard to the lack of results being produced from the tb eradication scheme here cannot be overlooked.

Basically everything has been done that can be done (apart from bovine vaccination) with regards controling the desiese in cattle here.
- cattle are all tagged (identified)
- herd units are formed (ie farms with herd numbers allocated)
- cattle from one herd are not allowed move and be mixed with other cattle from another herd without first being tested as tb free
- annual testing and culling of tb reactors

The vaccine issue is not up for debate, its a european ban. The ban is due to trade effects mostly. Outside ireland and uk tb is not really that big a problem in the rest of eu and as with the current banking crisis we are learning that one glove doesnt fit all but thats the way it is for now and we cant change it or we'd be placed at a trade dissadvantage.

The other issue is even with all the control steps cattle from one herd can still meet and greet cattle from the neighbour over fences etc. there were and maybe still are grants for farmers to build biosecurity fences (ie fences that are 3 metres apart) but most farmers are reluctant to build such fences for obvious reasons, you loose just way too much land.

As regards the badger. When the eradication program began and speaking in general terms now so forgive me here the levels of tb in the cattle population began to fall. This continued but instead of the desiese being eradicated like one would expect a plateau level was reached and it just wouldnt budge. This went on for years and it got to a point where farmers and the public were starting to loose faith in the system and the money being spent on it. Anyways to cut a long winded story short it was decided to see what was going on and this led to the discovery that the badger population and deer populations also harbouered high levels of tb and both were acting as a source of reintroducing tb to tb free farms (not exclusivly now - obvious the cow controls slipped up now and then and a farmer wud buy a tb reactor by mistake) but the badger and deer tb had to be controlled.

The deer bit was easy due to geography, but the badger bit is national. Badgers are not the cause of tb in cattle but they are a resevoir population.

We have a choice, continue as we were, ignoring the badger influence and just accepting the plateau level of tb in the national herd or we take steps to control the badger tb aswell.

Obviously we know what happened and badger cull programs began. This has lowered the number of reactors seen in the last ten years. But we are still not at zero. Probably never will be but millions of euro are being saved by reducing the loses in cattle. At the end of the day the whole point is to reduce the loses of cattle. Less cattle reactors means less waste and also reduces the risk of cattle to cattle spread.

But the badger conrol elements are vital to the scheme and ignoring it is impossible.

So culling badgers has to continue despite the faults with the system. Killing an animal no matter what type isnt nice and never will be but its the benifits produced that have to be weighed up beside it to justify it. We now also have badger vaccination, this will definatly help but unfortunatly its very slow and will take years for it to produce effects but its worth it on badger welfare grounds. So both the cull and vaccinaton need to continue side by side.

If we get tb down to near gone levels in cattle this will surely also mean a reduction in tb in badgers. This then will be the day when culling both can stop or at least be reduced to a very low level with both farmers and badgers being equally happy.

This is just my opinion but i hope it helps explain the why a little. At the end of the day the whole thing is about saving money and we have to be realistic. Tb in ireland has gone on long enough and we need to move forward and i believe we are doing that and the results speak for themselves.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/11/badger-culling-ineffective-krebs

But it doesnt work as stated above. If culling has been successful as you say why as tb gone on in ireland long enough?

lefthooker · 19-02-2012 8:04pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Wolves maybe, but bears are evil bastards if you catch them on a bad day. Polar bears are among the very few animals that actively stalk and kill humans, and they're pretty good at it too. This is what a bear looks like without the cuddly fur and I can't tell you the horrors I had to struggle through whilst looking for "shaved bear" with safesearch turned off.

Had a look at your bald bear, reminds me of the Lycen from the Underworld films. And they were werevolves

Batsy · 19-02-2012 8:43pm

Soon the irish government plans to spend 70 million on killing badgers to prevent the spread of tb.

That's good. The last thing you want is for TB to spread throughout the countryside.

TB is a nasty disease. The classic symptoms are a chronic cough with blood-tinged sputum, fever, night sweats, and weight loss. If left untreaty it kills 50% of sufferers. And, of course, farmers don't want their cattle to have it.

Authorities in England are to start shooting badgers later this year.

Two areas in Gloucestershire and Somerset have been selected to pilot a badger cull in the autumn.

The first site is mainly in the district of west Somerset and partly in Taunton Deane; the second is mainly within the Forest of Dean and Tewkesbury, and partly in the districts of Wychavon, Malvern Hills and west Gloucestershire.

The measures are part of efforts to tackle tuberculosis (TB) in cattle, which minsters claim will cost taxpayers around £1bn over the next 10 years if not dealt with effectively.

Agriculture minister, Jim Paice, said: "Bovine TB is a chronic and devastating disease. It causes the slaughter of tens of thousands of cattle each year, and is taking a terrible toll on our farmers and rural communities.

"Nobody wants to cull badgers. But no country in the world where wildlife carries TB has eradicated the disease in cattle without tackling it in wildlife too.

"These two pilots are just part of a wide range of activity on bovine TB. We already have robust measures to control its spread amongst cattle, which we plan to strengthen further, and are continuing to work hard on the development of practical and usable vaccines."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jan/19/badger-cull-pilot-areas-named

Of course, this sensible decision had been opposed by the Labour scumbags and their Shadow Environment Secretary Mary Creagh. Thankfully they aren't in power anymore.

homerjay2005 · 19-02-2012 8:52pm

a few shovels, some bait and a group of long term unemployed workers and send them out around the country and you save 70 million.

easy.

steddyeddy · 19-02-2012 8:54pm

Batsy wrote: »

That's good. The last thing you want is for TB to spread throughout the countryside.

TB is a nasty disease. The classic symptoms are a chronic cough with blood-tinged sputum, fever, night sweats, and weight loss. If left untreaty it kills 50% of sufferers. And, of course, farmers don't want their cattle to have it.

Authorities in England are to start shooting badgers later this year.

Two areas in Gloucestershire and Somerset have been selected to pilot a badger cull in the autumn.

The first site is mainly in the district of west Somerset and partly in Taunton Deane; the second is mainly within the Forest of Dean and Tewkesbury, and partly in the districts of Wychavon, Malvern Hills and west Gloucestershire.

The measures are part of efforts to tackle tuberculosis (TB) in cattle, which minsters claim will cost taxpayers around £1bn over the next 10 years if not dealt with effectively.

Agriculture minister, Jim Paice, said: "Bovine TB is a chronic and devastating disease. It causes the slaughter of tens of thousands of cattle each year, and is taking a terrible toll on our farmers and rural communities.

"Nobody wants to cull badgers. But no country in the world where wildlife carries TB has eradicated the disease in cattle without tackling it in wildlife too.

"These two pilots are just part of a wide range of activity on bovine TB. We already have robust measures to control its spread amongst cattle, which we plan to strengthen further, and are continuing to work hard on the development of practical and usable vaccines."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jan/19/badger-cull-pilot-areas-named

Of course, this sensible decision had been opposed by the Labour scumbags and their Shadow Environment Secretary Mary Creagh. Thankfully they aren't in power anymore.

I would rather trust scientific research papers thanks that state tb will spread because of culling. People seem to forget as an animal lover im also concerned with the effect culling will have on cattle.

Biggins · 20-02-2012 12:13am

According to the (English) Sunday Times, Ireland is going to additionally waste 70 Million on hosting the EU presidency during the first six months of next year.

Ireland will spend €70m-plus when it hosts the EU presidency during the first six months of next year. Denmark, the current host, has limited its budget to €35m, claiming it wants to deliver a “low cost” presidency in light of the dire economic situation in Europe.

The Irish government, in contrast, has allocated €25m towards paying for preparations for the presidency this year, and €35m for 2013 but expects the final cost to be “in excess of €70m”.

70 million here, 70 million there... loadsa money for all - well except for the Irish public!

pbthevet · 21-02-2012 8:44am

@ steddyeddy

It does work. The amount of tb reactors is getting lower and lower. Still get a good few up here in the north but only cattle tested and culled here.

JustAddWater · 21-02-2012 8:48am

1 down... Lots more to go

http://boards.ie/thread/2056548715?page=2

Nothingbetter2d · 21-02-2012 12:32pm

surely a more humane way to deal with the tb spread would be to tranquilise the badgers, take them in for testing, then digitally tagging & releasing the healthy ones back into the wild and putting down the infected ones.

hooradiation · 21-02-2012 12:44pm

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

surely a more humane way to deal with the tb spread would be to tranquilise the badgers, take them in for testing, then digitally tagging & releasing the healthy ones back into the wild and putting down the infected ones.

The problem is the most accurate test for TB in badgers involves dissecting the brain - it's kind of hard to release the healthy ones after that.

steddyeddy · 21-02-2012 1:22pm

hooradiation wrote: »

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

surely a more humane way to deal with the tb spread would be to tranquilise the badgers, take them in for testing, then digitally tagging & releasing the healthy ones back into the wild and putting down the infected ones.

The problem is the most accurate test for TB in badgers involves dissecting the brain - it's kind of hard to release the healthy ones after that.

Or vacinate the badgers and or cows.

steddyeddy · 12-09-2012 8:14pm

Hey all (and mods) sorry for ressurecting this thread but there has been rumblings of a badger cull in England and Ireland going ahead for some time now. Finally some scientists and figures like David Attenborough made a video detailing the lack of science. As one scientist says the farmers union are angry and rightfully want to see something killed as that looks like something is being done.

Sir Pompous Righteousness · 12-09-2012 8:23pm

Hold on, are we promoting a badger holocaust here?

LEAVE THE BADGERS ALONE!!!

finty · 12-09-2012 8:24pm

The vast majority of the money spent on disease control goes on the destruction and disposal of infected herds of cattle and compensation for the farmers involved.

To suggest the government is spending 70million to kill a few badgers is total nonsense.

steddyeddy · 12-09-2012 8:24pm

Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »

Hold on, are we promoting a badger holocaust here?

LEAVE THE BADGERS ALONE!!!

We are allowing certain groups in society to dictate what parts of Irish wildlife live and die because they dont like them. Be it seals, sea eagles or badgers.

steddyeddy · 12-09-2012 8:26pm

finty wrote: »

The vast majority of the money spent on disease control goes on the destruction and disposal of infected herds of cattle and compensation for the farmers involved.

To suggest the government is spending 70million to kill a few badgers is total nonsense.

That was the old estimate its not connected with my re-posting. My re-posting was because of the new video by scientists (seen above) that says it doesnt work. Any money spent is a waste of money and were doing it because certain groups just want to kill to feel better.

finty · 12-09-2012 8:32pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

That was the old estimate its not connected with my re-posting. My re-posting was because of the new video by scientists (seen above) that says it doesnt work. Any money spent is a waste of money and were doing it because certain groups just want to kill to feel better.

I agree with your point.

Very poor science backing the culling of badgers. Just ended up reading thru the thread and didnt see anyone refuting the point the OP made re the cost of it.

Culling badgers is a total waste of time.

Unfortunately some in the farming community believe in old wives tales when it comes to badgers, sea eagles etc!

dirtyden · 12-09-2012 8:32pm

finty wrote: »

The vast majority of the money spent on disease control goes on the destruction and disposal of infected herds of cattle and compensation for the farmers involved.

To suggest the government is spending 70million to kill a few badgers is total nonsense.

It might be nonsense but it made a damn fine thread title.

steddyeddy · 12-09-2012 8:40pm

dirtyden wrote: »

It might be nonsense but it made a damn fine thread title.

As did some of the illuminating posters highlighting the lack of science involved and pointing out the background desire to suffocate badgers.

Ps I wasnt talking about you!

steddyeddy · 12-09-2012 8:43pm

finty wrote: »

I agree with your point.

Very poor science backing the culling of badgers. Just ended up reading thru the thread and didnt see anyone refuting the point the OP made re the cost of it.

Culling badgers is a total waste of time.

Unfortunately some in the farming community believe in old wives tales when it comes to badgers, sea eagles etc!

Indeed and have been acting on it. People can believe that nature has to be wiped out and kept down all the want but when they act on it then society has to step in. On the money issue any amount spent is a total waste.