DoE testing - The Last Word

dfbemt

Test booked for tomorrow. A few q's for those who have gone through the test already

1 - Does your tax have to be in date. Mine isn't but tax office won't tax it until test is done so I am driving it illegally to the test centre tomorrow
2 - Residue left on headlamps from beam deflectors. Ok?
3 - Bulb gone from external light on overcab. Does this need replacing?
4 - Do they weigh? Do I need to empty the garage?
5 - Do they check tyre pressures?

Thanks and fingers crossed

Irishgoatman

dfbemt wrote: »

Test booked for tomorrow. A few q's for those who have gone through the test already

1 - Does your tax have to be in date. Mine isn't but tax office won't tax it until test is done so I am driving it illegally to the test centre tomorrow
2 - Residue left on headlamps from beam deflectors. Ok?
3 - Bulb gone from external light on overcab. Does this need replacing?
4 - Do they weigh? Do I need to empty the garage?
5 - Do they check tyre pressures?

Thanks and fingers crossed

I'll answer from my own experiance and I'm sure others will do the same.

1 - Providing you have a booking for the test, which you have, it is acceptable to drive the vehicle to the test centre and to the tax office without tax.

2 - Not sure on this one but does it reduce/interfere with the amount/direction of light is the question you must ask yourself.

3 - All exterior items must be in working order regardless of whether or not they are needed as far as I'm aware.

4 & 5 these were not done on my camper is all I can say.

Hope this helps and best of luck.

Niall_G

Agree with above. Mine was weighed - I had stripped everything I could out of it to ensure it was below weight. It was well below, so now I can calculate the approximate weights of what I put back in. At a minimum I would remove heavy items (gas bottles etc) and empty all tanks.

I don't think my tyre pressures were tested but all my tyres were perished, so it's academic!

Pjwal

dfbemt wrote: »

Test booked for tomorrow. A few q's for those who have gone through the test already

1 - Does your tax have to be in date. Mine isn't but tax office won't tax it until test is done so I am driving it illegally to the test centre tomorrow
2 - Residue left on headlamps from beam deflectors. Ok?
3 - Bulb gone from external light on overcab. Does this need replacing?
4 - Do they weigh? Do I need to empty the garage?
5 - Do they check tyre pressures?

Thanks and fingers crossed

1-having tax is not a requirement.
2-if it affects the light, then it needs to be removed, petrol will do this easily.
3-some testers might get sticky on this, not essential in my mind, but it does warn oncoming traffic of the size of your motorhome on a dark narrow road.
4-all axels are weighed during the brake test and the weight is recorded on the brake reading and if it is over weight, then it will fail.
5-tyre pressures will only be checked if they visually look a bit under-inflated.

2-if its a left hand drive, then you will need beem benders refitted.

dfbemt

Thanks to all for replies.

No issues, passed with flying colours. Tester pointed out the test weight to me as 3.2t but in fairness I hadn't emptied out the garage of its bbq, recliners, etc, etc so happy with that.

Re my 5 queries

1 - no probs
2 - had removed most but still some left
3 - no probs
4 - see above
5 - had pumped em all up before test

All in all a pleasant but nerve wrecking experience. Was able to stand the other side of a barrier and watch the test being done. I commented to him that it was like waiting in the maternity ward and he said, mid test, that it would be a surprise if she failed.

Tester had placed a sticker on the windscreen saying that the next test is 2013 but shouldn't this should be 2014 for a 5 yr old camper?

Planning on going away from Sunday for most of next week so will tax her tomorrow. You can't beat the outdoors. Galway and Mayo here we come

Irishgoatman

Re next test.

If it's reached its 5th birthday then it has to be every year.

So the question is: When was its birthday? It has to be the date it was first registered regardless of country of origin (if it was imported).

Sorry , forgot to say congratulations.

dfbemt

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Re next test.

If it's reached its 5th birthday then it has to be every year.

So the question is: When was its birthday? It has to be the date it was first registered regardless of country of origin (if it was imported).

Sorry , forgot to say congratulations.

Thanks for congrats.

Re frequency, thought it was every 2 years until 10th birthday?

Confused now. Can you point me to the section in the manual?

Yearly would seem OTT, especially if the camper only does approx 2,000 - 3,000 kms per annum

Irishgoatman

dfbemt wrote: »

Thanks for congrats.

Re frequency, thought it was every 2 years until 10th birthday?

Confused now. Can you point me to the section in the manual?

Yearly would seem OTT, especially if the camper only does approx 2,000 - 3,000 kms per annum

I must have been having a senior moment, sorry , really aught to read what I've typed before posting:o.

Yes, every 2 years until it 10th b/day. Same as for cars. Hope I didn't cause you too much of a panic.

It's a wonder that no-one pulled me on that crazy error.

Irishgoatman

Irishgoatman wrote: »

I must have been having a senior moment, sorry , really aught to read what I've typed before posting:o.

Yes, every 2 years until it 10th b/day. Same as for cars. Hope I didn't cause you too much of a panic.

It's a wonder that no-one pulled me on that crazy error.

Again, Sorry.

Should have added that when you take the paperwork to the motor tax office the clerk there should put 2014 on the cert that she gives you, mention it to her just to make sure she remembers.

Problem is that the DOE centres automatically think commercial when they test a vehicle, hence telling you 2013.

nailer8

dfbemt wrote: »

Test booked for tomorrow. A few q's for those who have gone through the test already

1 - Does your tax have to be in date. Mine isn't but tax office won't tax it until test is done so I am driving it illegally to the test centre tomorrow
2 - Residue left on headlamps from beam deflectors. Ok?
3 - Bulb gone from external light on overcab. Does this need replacing?
4 - Do they weigh? Do I need to empty the garage?
5 - Do they check tyre pressures?

Thanks and fingers crossed

Re item 4 - We run a test centre and weight is a big issue on the below 3.5t GVW campers. Our brake test machine automatically checks the weight and will not proceed with the test if the weight is over 3.5 tonne. Unfortunately we have had to turn away a lot of campers who were over weight. Most were fine once they had emptied everything. (We don't charge the retest fee in that case BTW)

Aidan_M_M

nailer8 wrote: »

Re item 4 - We run a test centre and weight is a big issue on the below 3.5t GVW campers. Our brake test machine automatically checks the weight and will not proceed with the test if the weight is over 3.5 tonne. Unfortunately we have had to turn away a lot of campers who were over weight. Most were fine once they had emptied everything. (We don't charge the retest fee in that case BTW)

Fair play on that.

corkbuoy

nailer8 wrote: »

Re item 4 - We run a test centre and weight is a big issue on the below 3.5t GVW campers. Our brake test machine automatically checks the weight and will not proceed with the test if the weight is over 3.5 tonne. Unfortunately we have had to turn away a lot of campers who were over weight. Most were fine once they had emptied everything. (We don't charge the retest fee in that case BTW)

This must put a question mark over these re insurance, if over the 3.5t limit they would be illegal. Would the insurance be void in this case ?

Aidan_M_M

Surely only illegal if the driver hadn't a C1 licence ?

niloc1951

Using any vehicle in an overloaded condition, ie where either the vehicle gross weight or an axle gross weight is in excess of the weights recorded on the VIN plate or registration documents is an offence under the RTA of 1961 Section 12 (4) and S.I. 224/2000 Regulation 4, respectively

Such a condition can invalidate any insurance cover in place. In the event of the vehicle being involved in an accident it can have very serious consequences for the driver, particularly if a fatality in involved.

BTW a C1 licence does not make it legal to drive a vehicle weighting over 3,500kg if it is only plated for a maximum of 3,500kg and is overweight.

Morgan The Moon

Hi All,
Just returned from the trip to Turkey.

I notice the "Park Brake" question seems to have died out... Has anyone had any luck with the testers not operating the "Park Brake" whilst the wheels are in motion on the rolling road ?

Irishgoatman

I've never been in the position to notice but never had any problems. I just assume that they test it as per cars.

nailer8

The standard procedure is the rolling road starts first then the tester applies the hand brake. Not sure if it would be permitted to apply the hand brake first. If it is a transmission brake they test both sides at the same time.

Extract from the manual

With the roller brake test machine driving each roadwheel in turn apply the parking brake slowly until each
roadwheel is just at the point of slip relative to the rollers, or until sufficient braking is achieved, whichever
occurs first. Note the braking effort indicated from the brake of each roadwheel, and calculate the total
braking force available.

Irishgoatman

With regard to the handbrake, the only time I have had problems with one being tested was many years ago in the U.K.

The car I had at the time failed its test because the hand brake didn't work at all!. I was completely unaware of this, hadn't bothered to test it even. The reason was that the car was an automatic and I couldn't even remember when I last used the brake because I always put the lever in "park" because it was the easiest, and in my opinion, the safer way.
I have to admit that I felt a right fool.:o

nailer8

I assume the thinking is that your hand brake is the last resort if you have a complete brake failure out on the road. That's why they test it with the wheels turning. I wouldn't like to see what would happen if you put it into "park" then.

Irishgoatman

That thought conjures up some interesting pictures:D.

niloc1951

So the issue of the Alko park brake is still rattling along, see HERE also.

It appears the 'problem' is due to the fact that the Alko rear disc brakes incorporate the parking brake in a 'top hat' arrangement as part of the disc.
The brake, being a 'parking brake' designed to hold the vehicle in place when stopped and not a traditional 'hand brake' which is designed to bring a moving vehicle to a halt, will 'snatch' on if the leaver is pulled when the wheels are in motion. On a test machine this can cause very low reading followed by a total wheel lock up all of a sudden which can result in a fail as the recorded values before lock up are what count.

The RSA and test technicians really do need to research this issue and get their heads around it, after all vehicles with the arrangement in question comply with ECWVTA and are issued with an EC Certificate of Conformity.

Morgan The Moon

niloc1951 wrote: »

So the issue of the Alko park brake is still rattling along, see HERE also.

It appears the 'problem' is due to the fact that the Alko rear disc brakes incorporate the parking brake in a 'top hat' arrangement as part of the disc.
The brake, being a 'parking brake' designed to hold the vehicle in place when stopped and not a traditional 'hand brake' which is designed to bring a moving vehicle to a halt, will 'snatch' on if the leaver is pulled when the wheels are in motion. On a test machine this can cause very low reading followed by a total wheel lock up all of a sudden which can result in a fail as the recorded values before lock up are what count.

The RSA and test technicians really do need to research this issue and get their heads around it, after all vehicles with the arrangement in question comply with ECWVTA and are issued with an EC Certificate of Conformity.

Thank you niloc1951... nice to see that someone understands the problem.

I enquired at a German garage on my way through back to Ireland and I was told "the park brake should not be applied whilst the vehicle is in motion." I asked how is it tested, " wheels off the ground." "Torque wrench applied to suitable positioned wheel nut", "wheel moves." "Apply Park Brake", "torque wrench applied to suitable wheel nut", wheel does not move. On a vehicle with two axles at the rear the torque setting is less as there are four brake possibilities. I was told the TUV test centres are well conversant with Al-Ko chassis arrangements. The Al-Ko test centres also have a rolling road set up with the possibility to have the four rear wheels turning at the same time. I was told this is the only way to test the "foot braking" system to give a true diagnostic report as to the efficiency of the brakes.

I had left the test until I returned, tax is due now so I will have to do something soon. Has anyone had any joy arguing the point with the RSA ?

Aidan_M_M

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

niloc1951 wrote: »

So the issue of the Alko park brake is still rattling along, see HERE also.

It appears the 'problem' is due to the fact that the Alko rear disc brakes incorporate the parking brake in a 'top hat' arrangement as part of the disc.
The brake, being a 'parking brake' designed to hold the vehicle in place when stopped and not a traditional 'hand brake' which is designed to bring a moving vehicle to a halt, will 'snatch' on if the leaver is pulled when the wheels are in motion. On a test machine this can cause very low reading followed by a total wheel lock up all of a sudden which can result in a fail as the recorded values before lock up are what count.

The RSA and test technicians really do need to research this issue and get their heads around it, after all vehicles with the arrangement in question comply with ECWVTA and are issued with an EC Certificate of Conformity.

Thank you niloc1951... nice to see that someone understands the problem.

I enquired at a German garage on my way through back to Ireland and I was told "the park brake should not be applied whilst the vehicle is in motion." I asked how is it tested, " wheels off the ground." "Torque wrench applied to suitable positioned wheel nut", "wheel moves." "Apply Park Brake", "torque wrench applied to suitable wheel nut", wheel does not move. On a vehicle with two axles at the rear the torque setting is less as there are four brake possibilities. I was told the TUV test centres are well conversant with Al-Ko chassis arrangements. The Al-Ko test centres also have a rolling road set up with the possibility to have the four rear wheels turning at the same time. I was told this is the only way to test the "foot braking" system to give a true diagnostic report as to the efficiency of the brakes.

I had left the test until I returned, tax is due now so I will have to do something soon. Has anyone had any joy arguing the point with the RSA ?

Alko use the fiat hubs , so adjusting the park Brake is done the same as if was a standard Ducato chassis. I've not had ANY fails yet, and I've had dozens done.

Morgan The Moon

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

Alko use the fiat hubs , so adjusting the park Brake is done the same as if was a standard Ducato chassis. I've not had ANY fails yet, and I've had dozens done.

Adjusting the park brake is not the issue! Testing the "park brake" without potentially causing any damage to the components is the question. There are numerous incidents reported of damage being caused by misuse of the "park brake" system. As an owner and user who follows the manufactures recommended operation I find it difficult to consider that should damage be caused by a tester, there would be no liability on their part.

niloc1951

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

Alko use the fiat hubs , so adjusting the park Brake is done the same as if was a standard Ducato chassis. I've not had ANY fails yet, and I've had dozens done.

Tell you what Aidan, why not take a 'van with an Alko Maxi chassis, one with rear disc brakes and the 'top hat' type of parking brake, out on the road bring it up to say 40k/ph and give the 'handbrake' leaver a good pull up and then tell us what you think about the loud bang as the shoes snatch on

I did it one in ignorance, I though the back end had fallen off, it frightened the bejeesus out of me and I will never repeat the action again. By all accounts I am lucky I did not end up with a big bill to rebuild a busted park brake system.

Morgan the Moon seem to have had a conversation with the equivalent of our VTN which confirms that the park brake should not be tested in the same manner as a traditional handbrake.

Perhaps, being in the trade you might get advice on the matter directly from AL-KO and share it with us on here.

Morgan The Moon

nailer8 wrote: »

The standard procedure is the rolling road starts first then the tester applies the hand brake. Not sure if it would be permitted to apply the hand brake first. If it is a transmission brake they test both sides at the same time.

Extract from the manual

The manual you refer to does not even consider that there some motorcaravans that have more than two two axles. The test centres do not have the equipment to test correctly a motorcaravan with three axles. Yet we have to pay a higher fee to have a vehicle tested. By now the VTN should have addressed the problem.

I know this may not concern everyone at this moment but if they introduce stricter testing as in other EU states we should all try to ensure they are doing it right and not just a paper exercise.

Aidan_M_M

niloc1951 wrote: »

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

Alko use the fiat hubs , so adjusting the park Brake is done the same as if was a standard Ducato chassis. I've not had ANY fails yet, and I've had dozens done.

Tell you what Aidan, why not take a 'van with an Alko Maxi chassis, one with rear disc brakes and the 'top hat' type of parking brake, out on the road bring it up to say 40k/ph and give the 'handbrake' leaver a good pull up and then tell us what you think about the loud bang as the shoes snatch on

I did it one in ignorance, I though the back end had fallen off, it frightened the bejeesus out of me and I will never repeat the action again. By all accounts I am lucky I did not end up with a big bill to rebuild a busted park brake system.

.

I'm not sure if that was meant to be sarcastic. I have actually done that. And having had all the hub and brake assembly stripped on the floor for inspection , I don't know how you could "bust" it, it's basically the same as the older Ducatos drum brake assembly. The main difference is the main shoe hasn't a lever like a normal drum brake.
And if you get a woejus bang when applying the park brake, you need to get your park brake adjusted properly. NOT just tightening up the cable. Properly adjusted ones don't "bang".

And again, why keep going on about Alko? They don't make the brakes! Fiat do.

Pjwal

Aidan_M_M wrote:

niloc1951 wrote: »

Aidan_M_M wrote:

Alko use the fiat hubs , so adjusting the park Brake is done the same as if was a standard Ducato chassis. I've not had ANY fails yet, and I've had dozens done.

Tell you what Aidan, why not take a 'van with an Alko Maxi chassis, one with rear disc brakes and the 'top hat' type of parking brake, out on the road bring it up to say 40k/ph and give the 'handbrake' leaver a good pull up and then tell us what you think about the loud bang as the shoes snatch on

I did it one in ignorance, I though the back end had fallen off, it frightened the bejeesus out of me and I will never repeat the action again. By all accounts I am lucky I did not end up with a big bill to rebuild a busted park brake system.

.

I'm not sure if that was meant to be sarcastic. I have actually done that. And having had all the hub and brake assembly stripped on the floor for inspection , I don't know how you could "bust" it, it's basically the same as the older Ducatos drum brake assembly. The main difference is the main shoe hasn't a lever like a normal drum brake.
And if you get a woejus bang when applying the park brake, you need to get your park brake adjusted properly. NOT just tightening up the cable. Properly adjusted ones don't "bang".

And again, why keep going on about Alko? They don't make the brakes! Fiat do.

We have tested a good number of theese.
All tested on the rolling road as we have no choice in that untill the rsa tell us otherwise. But all have passed the test.
No loud bangs. No broken mechanisms. No problems. But because I am consious of alko insructions, once I have obtained enough readings I stop and leave it at that. The rolling road turns at 3 km/hour.
40 miles/hour would be severe on any parking brake mechanism.

niloc1951

There is definitely something to the issue of a low reading followed by a lock-up resulting in the required reading not being reached and hence a 'fail'.

See THIS FIAT FORUM where this issue is being discussed and the comment Each rear wheel eventually just barely complied to the minimum standard efficiency. Luckily, the wheels tend to lock before they reach the minimum and that is a pass according to UK MOT testing..

This seems to confirm the fact that whatever the arrangement of the parking brake is it appears to 'snatch on' when the lever is pulled, it would also account for the 'bang' experienced if the lever is pulled or the park brake comes on at speed.

See further discussion on the issue HERE

So come on you techies in the trade, how about a call to AL-KO, as it appears to be only a problem with AL-KO chassis, is the system exactly the same as that fitted by FIAT on their axles or is it modified in some way by AL-KO, there seems to be no report of Ducatos having the same issue.

In a number of forum discussions the advice given by mechanics that the brake is a 'parking brake' and should not be applied when the wheels are in motion and damage to its internals could result crops up again and again.
As the saying goes, there's no smoke without fire

Finally, is it realistic to expect such a small friction surface as represented by the little shoes inside the small drum (top hat) has been designed with the task of bringing 4 tonne of vehicle to a halt in place of four large servo assisted disc brakes in mind, I think not.

Pjwal

niloc1951 wrote: »

There is definitely something to the issue of a low reading followed by a lock-up resulting in the required reading not being reached and hence a 'fail'.

See THIS FIAT FORUM where this issue is being discussed and the comment [COLOR="Navy"]Each rear wheel eventually just barely complied to the minimum standard efficiency. Luckily, the wheels tend to lock before they reach the minimum and that is a pass according to UK MOT testing.[/COLOR].

This seems to confirm the fact that whatever the arrangement of the parking brake is it appears to 'snatch on' when the lever is pulled, it would also account for the 'bang' experienced if the lever is pulled or the park brake comes on at speed.

See further discussion on the issue HERE

So come on you techies in the trade, how about a call to AL-KO, as it appears to be only a problem with AL-KO chassis, is the system exactly the same as that fitted by FIAT on their axles or is it modified in some way by AL-KO, there seems to be no report of Ducatos having the same issue.

In a number of forum discussions the advice given by mechanics that the brake is a 'parking brake' and should not be applied when the wheels are in motion and damage to its internals could result crops up again and again.
As the saying goes, there's no smoke without fire

Finally, is it realistic to expect such a small friction surface as represented by the little shoes inside the small drum (top hat) has been designed with the task of bringing 4 tonne of vehicle to a halt in place of four large servo assisted disc brakes in mind, I think not.

I know you are very passonate about this. But I was only stateing what I observed first hand. Never had a problem reaching a parking brake Reading and never had one lock suddenly. And never heard a bang.
But the Citroën relay van which is a twin sister of the ducato does tend to lock very suddenly when testing the park brake.