Sprinter Sacre

Shemale

mailburner wrote: »

the race is there for the taking if sdg come back in the same form

they'll all be playing for second imo
my gut is that ss won't be winning this year

So SDG coming back from a leg is a better proposition than Sprinter Sacre, come off it.

Dodging Bullets ran to a higher mark yesterday than SDG ever has and is improving.

mailburner

Shemale wrote: »

So SDG coming back from a leg is a better proposition than Sprinter Sacre, come off it.

Dodging Bullets ran to a higher mark yesterday than SDG ever has and is improving.

never said he was a better proposition

what I mean to say is that I would back the sdg of last year against the
rest and be quite confident

Huntley

Nobody would prefer to say Sprinter Sacre showed all his attributes of old yesterday more than myself. He ran a fine comeback race for any other horse. In terms of what he was capable of there was plenty lacking from that performance. Taking an extra half stride at fences, being cajoled along and reaching for his fences. That isn't him. If he pinged every fence and then blew up two out it would have been more encouraging than what was evident yesterday. He just plugged along really in the finish and it all seemed very ordinary from a horse that would have had these dead and buried turning in. The exuberance was lacking which was probably the most worrying aspect.

It's a mark of how good he was that he could run a stone and a half below his best and still possibly win a Champion Chase. I'll be surprised if he is in training next year.

mailburner

jimjamcos wrote: »

Same form? The same form it took to beat bridesmaids like Hidden Cyclone and Somersby will not be enough to win this years renewal in all likelihood, even Sprinter Sacre aside the likes of DB, CF and Al Ferof are classier than what showed up last year. He won as bad a QMCC as we'll see in a long time

it was as bad a qmcc alright
I refuse to believe that db or cf are good enough to win this race though

I wouldnt rule out al ferof but I'd have af and sdg ahead of the field if there
werent any problems with sdg

Alba Frere

Sire de Grugy was the best of a piss poor bunch last year. It's an insult to Sprinter when people mention them together. I would nearly fancy Twinlight ahead of SDG ffs. Sprinter should win it out but he'll never touch his best again.

Peintre Celebre

Alba Frere wrote: »

Sire de Grugy was the best of a piss poor bunch last year. It's an insult to Sprinter when people mention them together. I would nearly fancy Twinlight ahead of SDG ffs. Sprinter should win it out but he'll never touch his best again.

People love belittling Sire de Grugy but I'm not so sure. Sire could only beat what was put in front of him and he did so with ease. People like to ignore he absolutely smashed the subsequent Ryanair winner at Ascot. A bad Champion yes but not his fault. Mark Howard couldn't believe there was 4/1 for the champion on what he saw an evens shot.


Twinlight wouldn't get near him.

jimjamcos

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

People love belittling Sire de Grugy but I'm not so sure. Sire could only beat what was put in front of him and he did so with ease. People like to ignore he absolutely smashed the subsequent Ryanair winner at Ascot. A bad Champion yes but not his fault. Mark Howard couldn't believe there was 4/1 for the champion on what he saw an evens shot.


Twinlight wouldn't get near him.

You mean Ryanair runner up?

Peintre Celebre

That I do Jim

jimjamcos

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

That I do Jim

That was a fine performance but Hidden Cyclone is not going to be winning a top Gr1 over 2m anytime soon and his jumping was poor that day IIRC. SDG sluiced through the soft ground that day but the opposition was rancid

Peintre Celebre

jimjamcos wrote: »

That was a fine performance but Hidden Cyclone is not going to be winning a top Gr1 over 2m anytime soon and his jumping was poor that day IIRC. SDG sluiced through the soft ground that day but the opposition was rancid

Hidden Cyclone probably wouldn't be much bigger than 10/1 if he turned up in a Champion. Let's not forget Hidden Cyclone is proven in heavy and was no mug last season, he was coming off a close 3rd in the PP Gold Cup and was just held by Benefficient in gr.1 Irish Arkle race before that, and he did go off fav for the Champion at Punchestown. He's no mug

jimjamcos

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Hidden Cyclone probably wouldn't be much bigger than 10/1 if he turned up in a Champion. Let's not forget Hidden Cyclone is proven in heavy and was no mug last season, he was coming off a close 3rd in the PP Gold Cup and was just held by Benefficient in gr.1 Irish Arkle race before that, and he did go off fav for the Champion at Punchestown. He's no mug

He's just a horse I've never ever rated at the top level, particularly over 2m, whether that's down to jumping issues or his trainer I don't know. IMO he's been ridden aggressively on bad ground over 2m to place in top races without ever being good enough. I think his form over the trip is deceiving and I'd rate him a 16/1 shot if turning up in a good-soft CC against the likely field.

nobody told me

http://www.theirishfield.ie/kevin-blake-sprinter-sacres-time-at-the-top-is-over-172867/ good pice here from Kevin Blake who wasn't impressed by sprinters return

Gringo180

600 days he was off the course for lads, I think that was a cracking run. Take Dodging Bullets out of that race on Saturday and the bookies would have him a 1/2 shot for the Champion Chase.

jimjamcos

nobody told me wrote: »

http://www.theirishfield.ie/kevin-blake-sprinter-sacres-time-at-the-top-is-over-172867/ good pice here from Kevin Blake who wasn't impressed by sprinters return

Good piece by Blake as usual but one thing he, like most others, is failing to factor in when comparing the comeback run to that of Big Bucks is the opposition. BB was beaten by a 66/1 yak in Knockara Beau and a horse who although going onto run well in World Hurdle, is overall regressive in At Fishers Cross. SS was beaten by a younger improver with solid gr1 form and he had solid Gr1 winners in behind. Totally different races in terms of depth of quality given Boston Bob bombed in BBs race too

nobody told me

jimjamcos wrote: »

Good piece by Blake as usual but one thing he, like most others, is failing to factor in when comparing the comeback run to that of Big Bucks is the opposition. BB was beaten by a 66/1 yak in Knockara Beau and a horse who although going onto run well in World Hurdle, is overall regressive in At Fishers Cross. SS was beaten by a younger improver with solid gr1 form and he had solid Gr1 winners in behind. Totally different races in terms of depth of quality given Boston Bob bombed in BBs race too

Ye agree stronger look to the form than big bucks but if I remember it left the same impression, big bucks hacked into the race and found nothing with people saying he would improve for the race but he didn't. Sprinter wasn't even close to too 600 days off the track btw.

Gringo180

nobody told me wrote: »

Ye agree stronger look to the form than big bucks but if I remember it left the same impression, big bucks hacked into the race and found nothing with people saying he would improve for the race but he didn't. Sprinter wasn't even close to too 600 days off the track btw.

He was pulled up at Kempton you could hardly call that a proper run. Geraghty didnt give him a smack of the whip once on Sat iirc. He can easily improve a few pounds for the run and that will be enough in the CC imo.

Shemale

nobody told me wrote: »

Ye agree stronger look to the form than big bucks but if I remember it left the same impression, big bucks hacked into the race and found nothing with people saying he would improve for the race but he didn't. Sprinter wasn't even close to too 600 days off the track btw.

I don't remember hearing many saying Big Bucks would win after that run, he came back at 11, which is very old for a French horse and got beaten by a journeyman horse.

Can't believe:

A) all the doom merchants saying he is done at the game
Sire Du Grugy being put forward as a viable alternative.

Denman came back from his heart problem and while he wasn't as good, he only had Imperial Commander in front of him in a decent Gold Cup and he won a Hennessy with top weight.

Peintre Celebre

How is it difficult to believe that the reigning champion chaser is a viable alternative?

Shemale

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

How is it difficult to believe that the reigning champion chaser is a viable alternative?

The:

A) Reigning
Possibly worst champion chaser for years
C) Coming back after a leg
D) With his nearest challenger last year being a right hand track specialist.
E) Sprinter Scare would only have to improve 7lbs on Saturday to beat the lot of them in March

God, I don't know maybe all of the above.

nobody told me

Shemale wrote: »

I don't remember hearing many saying Big Bucks would win after that run, he came back at 11, which is very old for a French horse and got beaten by a journeyman horse.

Can't believe:

A) all the doom merchants saying he is done at the game
Sire Du Grugy being put forward as a viable alternative.

Denman came back from his heart problem and while he wasn't as good, he only had Imperial Commander in front of him in a decent Gold Cup and he won a Hennessy with top weight.

http://www1.skysports.com/racing/news/12426/9134594/big-bucks-fine-following-cleeve-hurdle-third-at-cheltenham

I doubt there is much you remember to be honest. Not going to get into an argument you think he will win I think he's a place lay, we won't be long finding out which one is right. Best of luck to you.

Peintre Celebre

Shemale wrote: »

The:

A) Reigning
Possibly worst champion chaser for years
C) Coming back after a leg
D) With his nearest challenger last year being a right hand track specialist.
E) Sprinter Scare would only have to improve 7lbs on Saturday to beat the lot of them in March

God, I don't know maybe all of the above.

Yeah they're reasons you may not fancy him. To say you can't understand how people are putting him forward is, to put it mildly, a stupid statement.

I see Tom Segal has put up Hidden Cyclone for the Champion.

NaiveMelodies

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

I see Tom Segal has put up Hidden Cyclone for the Champion.

33s has to be decent value.

nobody told me

NaiveMelodies wrote: »

33s has to be decent value.

It is but I think he's running in the ryanair where he will be outstayed by johns spirit. Least I hope he will!

Meath Centre Forward

I can't see how anybody can have a strong opinion on Sprinter Sacre either way to be honest.

Yes he may come back to his best or even within a few pounds of it and yes he may now not be good enough to win the Champion Chase. The reality is nobody knows. One side may ultimately be proven right but there's no hard and fast way of knowing until he runs at least once more.

Sire De Grugy wouldn't be my cup of tea. I generally try to steer clear of horses coming back from long term injuries but you'd have to acknowledge he has a fair chance. The same with Sprinter Sacre. I won't be backing him but I won't be ruling him out !

It's a fascinating Champion Chase with so many of the leading contenders former Festival winners but also with so many question marks. It's just one of those intriguing races that you have to keep an open mind about.

By the way Denman after his heart scare raced 10 times and won only once. His record before was 13/14. Not that it's relevant in my opinion but it may be of interest to those who think there are parallels between Sprinter Sacre and Denman.

UrbanFret

Sire de grugy is a much better horse than he is given credit for at least when he runs he is a price that a working man could invest in. Sprinter sacre is done for and is in my honest opinion way over rated. He beat sizing europe when he was long past his best. No worldlys in any of his other victims and to have him rated a superior horse than Kauto star is an insult!

longshotvalue

UrbanFret wrote: »

Sire de grugy is a much better horse than he is given credit for at least when he runs he is a price that a working man could invest in. Sprinter sacre is done for and is in my honest opinion way over rated. He beat sizing europe when he was long past his best. No worldlys in any of his other victims and to have him rated a superior horse than Kauto star is an insult!

He may have beaten Sizing Europe past his very best but he was still and afterwards a top class horse, that was very easily beaten that day. Its still as good Champion Chase form as there has been for a while. Kauto is a more complete horse in that he won a Tingle Creek 5 King Georges and 2 gold cups all of which are totally different tests..

jimjamcos

UrbanFret wrote: »

Sire de grugy is a much better horse than he is given credit for at least when he runs he is a price that a working man could invest in. Sprinter sacre is done for and is in my honest opinion way over rated. He beat sizing europe when he was long past his best. No worldlys in any of his other victims and to have him rated a superior horse than Kauto star is an insult!

Go home, you're drunk. And when you're there watch the Melling Chase.

Shemale

nobody told me wrote: »

http://www1.skysports.com/racing/news/12426/9134594/big-bucks-fine-following-cleeve-hurdle-third-at-cheltenham

I doubt there is much you remember to be honest. Not going to get into an argument you think he will win I think he's a place lay, we won't be long finding out which one is right. Best of luck to you.

So the most bullish man in racing says he is confident Big Bucks would "improve enormously" means that everyone though the old Big Bucks in his first run would lose to Knockcara Beau.

The reason Big Bucks was 11/4 was he was back from a leg and most people felt this superstar had faded from his reappearance, if they didn't he would have went off favourite.

I am just trying to say they are completely different cases and I wouldn't advise anyone to place lay Sprinter Sacre, a repeat of his run on Saturday could be enough to place never mind the improvement I think he has in him.

Dunno if you heard Geraghty on SS, he said he traveled nicely, he looked like a winner and felt like a winner and was willing to put the jumping down to being ring rusty. I would trust Geraghtys honesty:

Shemale

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Yeah they're reasons you may not fancy him. To say you can't understand how people are putting him forward is, to put it mildly, a stupid statement..

If I am so stupid perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to why this poor winner of a champion chase who is returning from a leg, possibly worse for it, is a better option than the third highest rated horse of all time who has proven this year he can run a 169/ 170 race when De Grugy at his very best with an uninterrupted prep can only hope for 172.

Unless I missed something the "horse" won a champion chase beating

Somersby 6 lengths on a left handed track,
Module (who has since had Uxizandre and Dodging Bullets take massives pisses on him over course and distance) 7 lengths
Sizing Europe a regressing 12 year old 10 lengths

The form at the time looked poor and it looks crap now, also at Cheltenham over 2 miles he has finished behind Kid Cassidy (sure giving him 10lbs) and Captain Conan.

In my "mildly stupid" opinion I just can't have him ahead of Sprinter Sacre, Dodging Bullets or Uxizandre on all known form.

Shemale

jimjamcos wrote: »

Go home, you're drunk. And when you're there watch the Melling Chase.

Well in Jim, I didn't have the heart to tell him Sizing Europe was a year older and 11 lengths closer to "the pig" than he was to Sprinter Sacre