Dreadful comment from Ruairi Quinn

byhookorbycrook

Look at what he said in the Dáil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNjbsYZaYJk
4:10 of 20:57 minutes.
"It seems, like some erm slow learners, they have to repeatedly put up on the blackboard for people to understand".

How ignorant is he with regard to SEN,no wonder he thinks it's ok to cut SEN provision, he has no understanding whatoever of the whole area.

SerialComplaint

Dreadful indeed (and I speak as a Labour Party member).

Trotter

Oh good God.. If that was regular TD or Junior Minister, I'd be disgusted.

The fact that its the minister for Education is actually demoralising and a blatant insult to those with any level of special needs.

We're gone beyond putting things on the blackboard multiple times minister.. You who lecture us on literacy and numeracy standards.

Disgusting.

byhookorbycrook

Someone should let him know that we now use whiteboards or interactive whiteboards, talk about out of touch.

Miss Lockhart

We still use some blackboards :P

Sickening comment, but not really surprising from Mr Quinn.

byhookorbycrook

Perhaps not unexpected, but still shoxking to hear any public rep. talk like this.

dambarude

The more I hear from him, the more confidence I lose.

His constant excuse for cuts is that we're not in control of our purse strings, and that we're 'in receivership'. It's just not good enough. He does have some room for maneuver, but he is constantly passing the book to the troika. And he is always let away with it, be it in the Dáil or in the media.

From what I can see he holds a lot of people in the ed. sector in contempt, teachers and obviously children with SEN included in that. It's very disappointing.

byhookorbycrook

I would urge as many people as possible to email him.

flutered

he is one of the people you would not mind getting a pension in the morning, even if he does not deserve it, just because he would be gone.

Paddy Bateman

Everyone needs to stop being so precious and politically correct

im invisible

Yeah there were some serious slow learners in my class, none that were special needs, but just couldnt get their head around some things

MagicMarker

What am I missing here? I don't get where all the outrage is coming from...????

Paddy Bateman

MagicMarker wrote: »

What am I missing here? I don't get where all the outrage is coming from...????

It's the county we live in now.....full of very sensitive souls

flatbackfour

MagicMarker wrote: »

What am I missing here? I don't get where all the outrage is coming from...????

He is the minister for Education yet he uses a very obviously loaded term which has very negative connotations especially for children with special educational needs. I'd say its a mildly insensitive term when used by ordinary punters, very insensitive when used by teachers and well its inexcusable coming from our EDUCATION minister.


Its very poor judgement. What bright spark wrote that speech/answer for him and did he really think that slow learner quip was clever?

apologies for font size. technical error:)

Paddy Bateman

flatbackfour wrote: »

MagicMarker wrote: »

What am I missing here? I don't get where all the outrage is coming from...????

He is the minister for Education yet he uses a very obviously loaded term which has very negative connotations especially for children with special educational needs. I'd say its a mildly insensitive term when used by ordinary punters, very insensitive when used by teachers and well its inexcusable coming from our EDUCATION minister.


Its very poor judgement. What bright spark wrote that speech/answer for him and did he really think that slow learner quip was clever?

There was nothing wrong with his comment at all

flatbackfour

Paddy Bateman wrote: »

There was nothing wrong with his comment at all

Ok did everyone read that, case closed. Nothing more to see here folks. off with you.

But seriously I think you will find some who disagree with you.

Paddy Bateman

flatbackfour wrote: »

Paddy Bateman wrote: »

There was nothing wrong with his comment at all

Ok did everyone read that, case closed. Nothing more to see here folks. off with you.

But seriously I think you will find some who disagree with you.

And that's fine too but he said nothing that would offend only the most sensitive of people

MagicMarker

flatbackfour wrote: »

But seriously I think you will find some who disagree with you.

I count 7 so far, of course I'm not taking the vast media coverage this has garnered in the (almost) 3 weeks since it was posted on youtube into account, so there could be 8 or 9.

flatbackfour

Paddy Bateman wrote: »

And that's fine too but he sad nothing that would offend only the most sensitive of people

I think you should ask that to the 10%+ of parents with kids who have special educational needs. Ask them how hard it is for them to access decent resource services. In this context Quinn the minister of EDUCATION evokes images of "slow learners" in classrooms as a term of offence.

Its an insensitive gaff. He should withdraw it.

Paddy Bateman

flatbackfour wrote: »

Paddy Bateman wrote: »

And that's fine too but he sad nothing that would offend only the most sensitive of people

I think you should ask that to the 10%+ of parents with kids who have special educational needs. Ask them how hard it is for them to access decent resource services. In this context Quinn the minister of EDUCATION evokes images of "slow learners" in classrooms as a term of offence.

Its an insensitive gaff. He should withdraw it.

But slow learners are slow learners. No gaff and he shouldn't withdraw it

flatbackfour

MagicMarker wrote: »

I count 7 so far, of course I'm not taking the vast media coverage this has garnered in the (almost) 3 weeks since it was posted on youtube into account, so there could be 8 or 9.

As I said before ask any parent fighting for thier son or daughter to get some extra resource help for thier kids in schools and I can say with some confidence they would be offended.

The term slow learner in and of itself is mildly offensive. Its the context of how and by whom it is used thats offensive. And at a time of massive cuts against special educational needs resources.

flatbackfour

Paddy Bateman wrote: »

But slow learners are slow learners. No gaff and he shouldn't withdraw it

Children learn at different paces at different ways using different stimulus etc.

In the past those students who did not learn through the chalk and talk didactic method of teaching were termed "slow learners"

Education theory has moved on.

I dont expect you to understand the nuance of what he said in relation to education theory and I dont have the time to help you understand.

I do expect Quinn to be more considered in his choice of words however.

Joe10000

Ridiculous over reaction from some people who are far too precious. Saying somebody is a slow learner does not infer a learning disability or special needs.

UnLuckyAgain

Joe10000 wrote: »

Ridiculous over reaction from some people who are far too precious. Saying somebody is a slow learner does not infer a learning disability or special needs.

Exactly. I wouldn't read too much into it, nothing but a fair statement. I'm a slow learner at rocket science but I don't have a learning disability. Certainly isn't a loaded term.

Powerhouse

Paddy Bateman wrote: »

But slow learners are slow learners. No gaff and he shouldn't withdraw it

Indeed. Well spotted. There's a clue in the name isn't there?

But the thing is that he didn't say slow learners were not slow learners, so your "slow learners are slow learners" defence of him is wide of the mark.

The point - as has already been made - is the context of the remarks when the government is cutting support for slow learners. Funny how he can recognise their existence when in the Dáil chamber but not outside.

Whether he should withdraw the comment it is a matter that will obviously come down to political pressure as opposed to any abstract sense of right or wrong on Quinn's part anyway so that debate is pointless. (In any event the government has far too much of a majority to give a fiddler's.) But the view that he does not have a case to answer morally misses the point.

flatbackfour

Joe10000 wrote: »

Ridiculous over reaction from some people who are far too precious. Saying somebody is a slow learner does not infer a learning disability or special needs.

But he used the term slow learner it in the context of a classroom. He is comparing the TD in question to a "slow learner" in a classroom. Now explain to parents of kids with special eduational needs that the minister is using words like that as a term of abuse in our national parliment.

Powerhouse

Joe10000 wrote: »

Saying somebody is a slow learner does not infer a learning disability or special needs.

In any normal discourse not distorted by the semantic gymnasts I would say that the term slow-learner certainly does imply a learning disability. I don't think I have ever heard the term used in relation to a specific subject. It is at this point - when the lingo concerning learning difficulties has developed hugely to differentiate between various problems - a general term of abuse for the chattering classes. Kids in school themselves would tend to favour calling anyone in that boat a "retard" but it also is a general term of abuse. Quinn would know better than to use the latter term but is showing generational ignorance - and ignorance of the education sector - in using the term he chose.

ilovesmybrick

I never thought I would defend Ruariri Quinn but if you listen to the clip from a bit earlier he's not referring to people with educational difficulties, he's referring to the opposition parties. I know personally how his cuts affect people with learning difficulties but he's not referring to those people here. Take anything out of context and it appears awful-focus instead on the 10% staffing cuts that f**ker is imposing on deis schools

mikemac1

He wasn't even talking about children

It was to do with money and the budget deficit
The opposition are whinging so the minister has to explain it again.
Ministers explain cutbacks and the opposition whinges, been like that since the foundation of the state

That's what TD's do, they insult each other.
It's hardly new

And the Dáil is ridiculously tame, the UK parliament involves shouting, roaring and vicious put downs

Offensive?

flatbackfour

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

I never thought I would defend Ruariri Quinn but if you listen to the clip from a bit earlier he's not referring to people with educational difficulties, he's referring to the opposition parties. I know personally how his cuts affect people with learning difficulties but his not referring to those people here. Take anything out of context and it appears awful-focus instead on the 10% staffing cuts that f**ker is imposing on deis schools

No one is saying he directly refering to these people. We can all hear he is responding to an opposition TD. Thats not the point. It is the manner of the put down. The evoking of the image of the slow learner in the classroom where the information has to be written on the blackboard twice.

Its a crude and ill advised remark from a minister of education.

flatbackfour

mikemac1 wrote: »

He wasn't even talking about children

It was to do with money and the budget deficit
The opposition are whinging so the minister has to explain it again.
Ministers explain cutbacks and the opposition whinges, been like that since the foundation of the state

That's what TD's do, they insult each other.
It's hardly new

And the Dáil is ridiculously tame, the UK parliament involves shouting, roaring and vicious put downs

Offensive?

He was not refering to children directly but evoking an image of the slow learner in the classroom as a term of insult to an opposition TD, Again its a gaff from a minister of education.

ilovesmybrick

I understand your point, but in any situation where you deal with a group of people you will come across a slow learner where you have to put a point across several times. Its the same from primary to postgraduate level. Issues slow learners have is generally nothing to do with the complexity of the material, the most common issue I have come across is generational. As I said before, if you have a fault with his attacks on childrens education in this country look at the cuts he's imposing across the Deis system. His choice of wording may not be to your taste but in any situation where you are trying to teach a group, (and in this case it's politicians who precipitated the problems education is facing now), you will encouter people who cannot catch on as fast. Its a fact of education.

Powerhouse

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

I never thought I would defend Ruariri Quinn but if you listen to the clip from a bit earlier he's not referring to people with educational difficulties, he's referring to the opposition parties.

That's not the point at all. When a previous Minister alluded to "Dr Goebbels" when referring to another TD a few years back it was not during a debate about Nazism but it was still seen as inappropriate and was subsequently withdrawn. And before I get the University of Google graduates chucking Godwin's Law at me, the point is that it is the term per se (that Quinn is Minister for Education does not help) and not its direct relevance to the matter being discussed that is problematic.

mikemac1

The minister talks about an eighteen billion euro deficit but instead the outrage is over a phrase.

I know this is education forum and you have other threads on cutbacks but I'm more surprised you're focusing on two words in a speech then the money that runs the whole system

Think about it, which is more important

Don't sweat the small stuff

Powerhouse

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

His choice of wording may not be to your taste but in any situation where you are trying to teach a group, (and in this case it's politicians who precipitated the problems education is facing now), you will encouter people who cannot catch on as fast. Its a fact of education.

Quinn was arguing a political point, not teaching a class.

flatbackfour

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

I understand your point, but in any situation where you deal with a group of people you will come across a slow learner where you have to put a point across several times.

Modern pedagogical theory says that learning occurs when knowledge is constructed from the students perspective at their own pace. Teachers are no longer those who "put accross a point several times" but help students construct their own learning.

Students are no longer considered "slow" if they dont get it when the teacher tries to tell them even a hundred times. Because thats actually not good practice educationally.

Powerhouse

mikemac1 wrote: »

The minister talks about an eighteen billion euro deficit but instead the outrage is over a phrase.

I know this is education forum and you have other threads on cutbacks but I'm more surprised you're focusing on two words in a speech then the money that runs the whole system

Think about it, which is more important

Don't sweat the small stuff

Ah yes, the old don't-bother-fixing-the-local-traffic-lights-until-we-get-peace-in-the-middle-east-first-as-that's-much-more-important argument. That took longer than expected.

Words matter and people need to take ownership of them. An excuse that something else is relatively more important can always be found in nearly any situation but the temptations of that kind of obfuscation should not stop people in positions of responsibility doing the right thing.

ilovesmybrick

flatbackfour wrote: »

Modern pedagogical theory says that learning occurs when knowledge is constructed from the students perspective at their own pace. Teachers are no longer those who "put accross a point several times" but help students construct their own learning.

Students are no longer considered "slow" if they dont get it when the teacher tries to tell them even a hundred times. Because thats actually not good practice educationally.

Theory is a wonderful thing. There is no problem if a student is slow at one topic, they have strengths in others. How can you teach at an individual pace in front of a group of 30+? What is the currently accepted phrase now if a student can't keep up with the general rate, because unfortunately there has to be some way to discuss the matter without getting into pedantic arguments over terminology.

Paddy Bateman

flatbackfour wrote: »

Joe10000 wrote: »

Ridiculous over reaction from some people who are far too precious. Saying somebody is a slow learner does not infer a learning disability or special needs.

But he used the term slow learner it in the context of a classroom. He is comparing the TD in question to a "slow learner" in a classroom. Now explain to parents of kids with special eduational needs that the minister is using words like that as a term of abuse in our national parliment.

It's a basic fact. It's a comparison that is factual no more no less.

Powerhouse

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

What is the currently accepted phrase now if a student can't keep up with the general rate, because unfortunately there has to be some way to discuss the matter without getting into pedantic arguments over terminology.

There are many such phrases depending on the individual circumstances. But your post utterly misses the point. "The matter" is routinely discussed in schools all over the country and the langauge and knowledge of the language to do so is available. But Quinn was not "discussing the matter"- he was discusing an entirely different matter and was using the term as a term of abuse.

If in the context of an educational discussion in the future he wants to talk about GLDs or whatever nobody will have a problem. Such issues, thankfully, have never been capable of being discussed as much as they can be now such is the increased understanding of the area. It's the arrogance, ignorance and flippancy of the Minister for Education which appears to subvert or ignore all that theoretical and terminological progress that's the issue.

And the only people who regard arguments over terminology as pedantic are people who are utterly ignorant of the area. Why on earth they would feel qualified to discuss "the matter" without such basic knowledge in the first place is baffling. And why such interest in learning difficulties and desire to discuss "the matter" when the basic terminology with which to understand it not considered to matter?

Powerhouse

Paddy Bateman wrote: »

It's a basic fact. It's a comparison that is factual no more no less.

I think you are confusing facts and opinions. Comparisons are opinions and Quinn offered an opinion.

Paddy Bateman

Powerhouse wrote: »

Paddy Bateman wrote: »

It's a basic fact. It's a comparison that is factual no more no less.

I think you are confusing facts and opinions. Comparisons are opinions and Quinn offered an opinion.

Ever hear the Goid Friday Ageement referred to Sunningdale for slow learners ? Google it. Does that equally offend you?

byhookorbycrook

The term "slow learner " is no longer used, because children learn at different rates and have varying strengths and the term itself is laden with historic baggage.Any minister for ed. should be far more careful of what language he uses.

Paddy Bateman

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The term "slow learner " is no longer used, because children learn at different rates and have varying strengths and the term itself is laden with historic baggage.Any minister for ed. should be far more careful of what language he uses.

If its no longer used then everyone should quit with the freak attacks ! Or is that another term that shouldn't be used

flatbackfour

Powerhouse wrote: »

And the only people who regard arguments over terminology as pedantic are people who are utterly ignorant of the area.

Why I am not bothering responding to the poster.

Paddy Bateman

flatbackfour wrote: »

Powerhouse wrote: »

And the only people who regard arguments over terminology as pedantic are people who are utterly ignorant of the area.

Why I am not bothering responding to the poster.

I am not responding to the sensitive pc obsessed souls either. They need to stop going spastic

Toto Wolfcastle

If you cannot post without getting personal then please do not post at all.

spurious

The trolls have had their fun.
It doesn't lessen the fact that what Minister Quinn said was a huge gaffe on his (or his speech maker's) part.

I hope there are not too many 'slow learners' in the Dáil, they needn't expect any extra help in this country where everyone is perfect.

SerialComplaint

spurious wrote: »

The trolls have had their fun.
It doesn't lessen the fact that what Minister Quinn said was a huge gaffe on his (or his speech maker's) part.

I'd guess that it was an unscripted off-the-cuff remark. I can't imagine any speech writer putting this in a speech.

Paddy Bateman wrote: »

I am not responding to the sensitive pc obsessed souls either. They need to stop going spastic

Congrats on managing to cause offence with your post about somebody who caused offence.

E.T.

What has made me angry about the situation is not just the term that he used (which isn't a term in much use in education any more). It's the fact that he used it as an insult.

When I first heard about this I thought it was another case of Ruairí Quinn not knowing the terminology that's been in use for years. Unfortunately it's not just lack of information, but a statement of complete ignorance.

Nadser

spurious wrote: »

The trolls have had their fun.

Just because someone has a different opinion to you, does not make them a troll.