Primary school college course and atheism

Peregrinus

Isn't the irony that the stuff which was unacceptable to the readers of this Board also turned out to be unacceptable to the Catholic church?

When A&A and the Catholic bishops are both togging out for the same team, against Hibernia College, you'd have to be a brave man to put your money on Hibernia College.

expectationlost

don't think has anything to do with what was in the course before, because apparently it hasn't been there for a while, just a consolidation of schools ethos/control

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

Isn't the irony that the stuff which was unacceptable to the readers of this Board also turned out to be unacceptable to the Catholic church?

When A&A and the Catholic bishops are both togging out for the same team, against Hibernia College, you'd have to be a brave man to put your money on Hibernia College.

Entirely unevidenced assertions - never!

In the Irish Times article expectationlost linked to, the president of Hibernia said they did not seek approval (which isn't a good sign in itself professionalism-wise, given that 90% of primary schools are RC controlled so this is pretty important for the employment prospects of their graduates - but it does mean they haven't been rejected by the RCC - not yet anyway)

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Entirely unevidenced assertions - never!

In the Irish Times article expectationlost linked to, the president of Hibernia said they did not seek approval (which isn't a good sign in itself professionalism-wise, given that 90% of primary schools are RC controlled so this is pretty important for the employment prospects of their graduates - but it does mean they haven't been rejected by the RCC - not yet anyway)

My point was to query oceanclub's suggestion that Hibernia "bent over backwards to indoctrinate new teachers with bigoted offensive rubbish on behalf of the Catholic Church". It now appears that they had no contact with the church at all, and we know from earlier posts in this thread that the bigoted offensive rubbish doesn't feature in the courses run by colleges who do have the episcopal nod of approval. The conclusion must be that the bigoted offensive rubbish was entirely Hibernia's own choice, and their own responsibility. Perhaps they just shared oceanclub's assumption that the bigoted offensive rubbish would be what the church would want, but the assumption appears to be baseless and is itself, perhaps, the tiniest bit bigoted.

SpaceTime

You'd think in this day and age one of the secular universities like UCC or NUIG might develop a primary teaching programme. It'd be far healthier for primary teachers to be educated in that kind of mainstream university environment too.

Think about it.
Age 4 to 12 catholic primary
Age 12 to 18 Catholic secondary
Age 18 to 22 Catholic teacher education centre.
Age 22 to retirement - teaching in Catholic school.

Hardly surprising that nothing in education here changes.

Peregrinus

The former Froebel College of Education is now a department of NUI Maynooth, and is located on the main Maynooth campus.

Hibernia College, which is the one causing the problems here, is a secular institution. Plus, its primary teaching qualification is a Master's degree, for which an entry requirement is a Bachelor's degree, so all its students have already been to university, usually secular university.

expectationlost

Vincent Twomey is an Irish Roman Catholic priest and Professor Emeritus of Moral Theology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Twomey

he transferred to the University of Regensburg to do his doctoral studies under the supervision of the then Professor Joseph Ratzinger.

On 10 October 2011 he was conferred with the Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice medal by Cardinal Burke. The medal was given to Fr Twomey for outstanding services rendered to the Church and to the Pope

St Patrick's College, Maynooth (Irish: Coláiste Naoimh Phádraig, Maigh Nuad), is the "National Seminary for Ireland" (a Roman Catholic college), and a Pontifical University,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Patrick%27s_College,_Maynooth

Pontifical universities are "academic institutes established or approved directly by the Holy See, composed of three main ecclesiastical faculties (Theology, Philosophy and Canon Law) and at least one other faculty. These academic institutes deal specifically with the Christian revelation and related disciplines, and the Church’s mission of spreading the Gospel, as proclaimed in the Apostolic Constitution Sapientia christiana"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_university

officer of the church wrties the court but that nothing to do with the catholic church?

Peregrinus

St Patrick's College Maynooth (recently rebranded as "Maynooth College") is indeed the National Seminary for Ireland and a pontifical university. The Froebel Department of Primary and Early Education is, however, not a department of St. Patrick's College Maynooth but rather of the National University of Ireland Maynooth (recently rebranded as "Maynooth University") which is a separate, and much larger, institution. It's a secular institution, established by the Universities Act 1997 and run by a President who is appointed by the Governing Authority which (like the governing authorities of all Irish universities) is also constituted by the Universities Act 1997.

Vincent Twomey is indeed an Irish Roman Catholic priest, but it seems clear that his involvement in the Hibernia religion module didn't arise from any express or implicit requirement of the Catholic church, and the material that he seemingly provided for this course doesn't feature in any of the courses which have actually got the episcopal nod.

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

My point was to query oceanclub's suggestion that Hibernia "bent over backwards to indoctrinate new teachers with bigoted offensive rubbish on behalf of the Catholic Church". It now appears that they had no contact with the church at all, and we know from earlier posts in this thread that the bigoted offensive rubbish doesn't feature in the courses run by colleges who do have the episcopal nod of approval. The conclusion must be that the bigoted offensive rubbish was entirely Hibernia's own choice, and their own responsibility. Perhaps they just shared oceanclub's assumption that the bigoted offensive rubbish would be what the church would want, but the assumption appears to be baseless and is itself, perhaps, the tiniest bit bigoted.

Yes it does appear that they didn't consult with the educational authorities of the RCC at all, which is pretty amateurish given the situation in Ireland in relation to control/patronage/ethos whateveryacallit in primary schools here. But someone had the brainwave to hire Vincent Twomey and then subject the material he presented to, it appears, no form of review at all.

You have to wonder what would have happened if Twomey's material had been submitted for approval - it would have been ironic if the RCC rejected a leading theologian's material as being too extreme...

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes it does appear that they didn't consult with the educational authorities of the RCC at all, which is pretty amateurish given the situation in Ireland in relation to control/patronage/ethos whateveryacallit in primary schools here.

Yup. The more this goes on, the more I get the sense that Hibernia College is not a brilliantly-managed outfit.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

someone had the brainwave to hire Vincent Twomey and then subject the material he presented to, it appears, no form of review at all.

What's with the "but"? If it's a badly-managed outfit then a bad decision by managers is pretty much what you'd expect.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You have to wonder what would have happened if Twomey's material had been submitted for approval - it would have been ironic if the RCC rejected a leading theologian's material as being too extreme...

It would, though at best that's only a hypothetical irony.

But I don't know whether episcopal approval of the religious certificate involves detailed review of the course materials. We can only speculate, but it's at least possible that if Hibernia had sought approval they would have got it - not because Twomey's views on atheism would have found favour, but becaust Twomey's views on atheism wouldn't have come to light in whatever scrutiny process was involved.

The background here is that Hibernia was, until recently, the only secular institution involved in teacher training in Ireland. So my guess is that the episcopal approval process emerged in an environment in which the religion certificate was being delivered in a church-run institution, and checking the substantive content of the course wouldn't have been seen as a priority.

recedite

This whole thing is getting a bit confusing. Is this correct;

During the time Fr. Vincent Twomey (Professor Emeritus of Moral Theology) was controlling the content of the religious module at Hibernia, they were issuing a cert to say its students were qualified to teach religion in a RC school. And RC schools had no problem accepting the cert.

And now that Fr. Twomey no longer controls the content, those same schools have been told by RCC that they are not allowed to accept the Hibernia cert.

Peregrinus

Yes, it is confusing. But (unless I am confused) your summary is not correct, or at least not necessarily correct.

1. I don't know that Twomey ever controlled the content of the religious module. He provided content which the College used. They were free to source and use other content.

2. He may or may not have been the only person providing content, I don't know, but he seems to have provided the particular content which gave rise to upset in 2011. The upset arose out of what he had to say about atheism, but I'd imagine comments about atheism formed a small part of the total religious module, which is basically about religion, and only incidentally about atheism.

3. As to recognition before the 2011 kerfuffle, it seems from the Irish Times report that it was only in 2011 that the bishops introduced a list of recognised religious certificates.

4. The timing seems to be that a recognition requirement was introduced after complaints about the Twomey material emerged, but before Hibernia introduces revised religious material - that only happened in 2012. So it's possible that they introduced it because they didn't like the Twomey material but, on the timing, less likely that they introduced it because they didn't like the replacement material.

5. It's also quite possible that the introduction of the recognition requirement was wholly unrelated to the Twomey kerfuffle; it could have been something that arose in response to the wider trend of the delivery of teacher training passing out of the control of the religious orders. And in fact this seems to me to be the more likely explanation. If it was connected with the Hibernia business, you'd expect Hibernia to be at least aware of it, whereas it seems they never knew of it at all until recently. And it's introduction came after Froebel College announced its planned closure and reappearance as the Froebel Department at Maynooth. (This was announced in 2010.) I think this was the first time that a religious-run training college was closed and replaced with a secular-run department on a secular campus.

SpaceTime

Peregrinus wrote: »

The former Froebel College of Education is now a department of NUI Maynooth, and is located on the main Maynooth campus.

Hibernia College, which is the one causing the problems here, is a secular institution. Plus, its primary teaching qualification is a Master's degree, for which an entry requirement is a Bachelor's degree, so all its students have already been to university, usually secular university.

Maynooth is anything but a secular university.

Peregrinus

How so? NUI Maynooth is pretty well identical in structure, governance, mission, ownership, ethos, etc to UCC or NUIG, both of which you identify as secular universities in post #406. True, NUI Maynooth is located adjacent to the (definitely not secular) St Patrick's College and they share some facilities, but I don't think that makes NUI Maynooth a religious institution any more that it makes St. Patrick's College a secular institution.

expectationlost

Hibernia graduates still unsure on eligibility in Catholic schools http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/hibernia-graduates-still-unsure-on-eligibility-in-catholic-schools-1.2246534

The Taoiseach was speaking at the official opening of a €50 million campus development at St Patrick’s College, his former alma mater.
He said he believed the incorporation of St Patrick’s with DCU, Mater Dei and the Church of Ireland College of Education on the site would strengthen its respect for religious, cultural and secular traditions

whats secular about these teaching colleges if you have to infuse religion into everything to get a job?

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

The timing seems to be that a recognition requirement was introduced after complaints about the Twomey material emerged, but before Hibernia introduces revised religious material - that only happened in 2012. So it's possible that they introduced it because they didn't like the Twomey material but, on the timing, less likely that they introduced it because they didn't like the replacement material.

RCC are playing the situation well, it has to be said. By drawing up this list of approved certs, they can distance themselves retrospectively from the original material after it has been discredited.
Also they can send the message that the new course would have to be approved by them.

It may or may not be open to Hibernia now, to go cap in hand to the bishops and ask them what sort of course content would meet their approval, and then implement that.

Unfortunately that still leaves the current crop of students who studied there since 2011 with an unapproved qualification in the teaching of catholic religion.
Maybe the Hibernian religion cert could be used in the new ETB primary schools, which propose to segregate students and teach a RC module to RC kids? As the schools are to be owned and operated under "secular" VEC patronage they wouldn't need official church approval to teach church doctrine. Or would they? Maybe church doctrine is proprietary/copyright and can't be taught without approval? :pac:

What a tangled mess this country has created by caving in to the original church demands to integrate religion into the State education system.

expectationlost

why after starting an approved list in 2011 did the church only start enforcing it in 2014?

SpaceTime

Peregrinus wrote: »

How so? NUI Maynooth is pretty well identical in structure, governance, mission, ownership, ethos, etc to UCC or NUIG, both of which you identify as secular universities in post #406. True, NUI Maynooth is located adjacent to the (definitely not secular) St Patrick's College and they share some facilities, but I don't think that makes NUI Maynooth a religious institution any more that it makes St. Patrick's College a secular institution.

Not quite the same in terms of its history.

Also the Froebel College is (or at least was until very, very recently) run by the Dominican order! Yeah moving into a mainstream campus is great news but, it's hardly a new institution or one that's not deeply imbedded in the historical legacy of Catholic schooling here.

Both UCC and NUIG were specifically founded as secular universities from day one. They've no legacy as being part of any religious organisation or having any religious ethos.

Rather progressively, the two former Queen's Colleges (and Queens Belfast) were specifically created to be non-religious as there was justifiable concerned that there would be a duplication of the sectarianism that existed in higher education in Dublin with Trinity and the Catholic University which morphed into what is now UCD.

There's no teaching of theology at UCC for example, it's only course on religion is more the history / sociology of religion.

I just find that when you look anything to do with education here (especially primary) you're always within a few metres of a nun.

Those universities were absolutely castigated as "godless institutions" by both Protestant and Catholic clergy in the 1800s.

I just think it'd be nice to see a somewhat different take on primary education teacher training. UCC academics for example have been quite strongly linked to educate together.

I'd love to see NUIG take up the role of training teachers for Gaelscoil programmes. It's the ideal location!

Peregrinus

expectationlost wrote: »

why after starting an approved list in 2011 did the church only start enforcing it in 2014?

I'm not sure that they did "start enforcing it in 2014".

They announced the approval arrangements in 2011 but, obviously, at that point nobody had approval. All that was announced was that approvals would be given, what a certificate would need to cover to secure approval, and what colleges needed to do to secure approval ("send details of their programmes (course outlines, learning outcomes, contact hours, and bibliographies) to the Council for Catechetics of the Irish Episcopal Conference"). There was a statement that to be approved the programmes would have to be "located on Level 7 of the NQAI framework, Special Purpose Certificate Award", would have to be validated by extern examiners, etc. So presumably Colleges were going to have to review their existing programmes, and upgrade them if necessary, before applying for episcopal approval. Then when Colleges did apply, you'd imagine review and approval (or refusal of approval) would take some time. So I don't think it was ever the case that everyone graduating from 2011 onwards was expected to have an approved certificate; all that happened in 2011 was that they announced that they wanted colleges to offer approved certificates, but it was clearly going to take some time before courses were designed, reviewed, approved and taught. It may be that it wasn't until 2014 that there was any expectation that a newly-graduated teacher would have an approved certificate, those applying for jobs were being asked by interview panels if they had an approved certificate, and Hibernia graduates were discovering that they didn't, while others did.

expectationlost

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm not sure that they did "start enforcing it in 2014".

They announced the approval arrangements in 2011 but, obviously, at that point nobody had approval. All that was announced was that approvals would be given, what a certificate would need to cover to secure approval, and what colleges needed to do to secure approval ("send details of their programmes (course outlines, learning outcomes, contact hours, and bibliographies) to the Council for Catechetics of the Irish Episcopal Conference"). There was a statement that to be approved the programmes would have to be "located on Level 7 of the NQAI framework, Special Purpose Certificate Award", would have to be validated by extern examiners, etc. So presumably Colleges were going to have to review their existing programmes, and upgrade them if necessary, before applying for episcopal approval. Then when Colleges did apply, you'd imagine review and approval (or refusal of approval) would take some time. So I don't think it was ever the case that everyone graduating from 2011 onwards was expected to have an approved certificate; all that happened in 2011 was that they announced that they wanted colleges to offer approved certificates, but it was clearly going to take some time before courses were designed, reviewed, approved and taught. It may be that it wasn't until 2014 that there was any expectation that a newly-graduated teacher would have an approved certificate, those applying for jobs were being asked by interview panels if they had an approved certificate, and Hibernia graduates were discovering that they didn't, while others did.

fair point about lead in time, but surely between 2011 and 2014 Hibernian would have looked into it, not impressed by Hibernian

btw Hibernian just got a new CEO article about them in the SBP

Peregrinus

expectationlost wrote: »

fair point about lead in time, but surely between 2011 and 2014 Hibernian would have looked into it, not impressed by Hibernian

Oh, I'm with you there. You may like or dislike the influence the Catholic church has on education in Ireland, but as far as Hibernia are concerned that's neither here nor there. If they're in the business of providing qualifications to equip people to teach in Irish schools, then a pretty basic minimum is that they should be aware of the qualifications which the market requires, and that they should either offer them or make it clear at the outset to prospective students that they don't offer them. They don't seem to have done either of these things.

The obvious solution is to offer the certificate as a stand-alone postgraduate course. In fact SFAIK this is already available (though not through Hibernia) for the benefit of teachers who qualified abroad, but who wish to relocate to Ireland. Hibernia is (presumably) moving to offer an approved certificate to current and future students, and my guess is that the college will come under pressure from its own recent graduates (and from their union?) also to offer a "conversion" module that its recent graduates can take so that they, too, can the religion component of the degree they have already taken upgraded to an approved certificate.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

a "conversion" module that its recent graduates can take...

What's your opinion on using the existing Hibernia cert to teach the RC religion programme in an ETB primary school?
Obviously it depends on the employer, but the employer would not be obliged to accept only the newer approved certs, would they?

And then there is the question of established teachers in RC schools. None of them will have approved certs. Will they have to upgrade or convert their certs?

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

What's your opinion on using the existing Hibernia cert to teach the RC religion programme in an ETB primary school?
Obviously it depends on the employer, but the employer would not be obliged to accept only the newer approved certs, would they?

No. Employers can form their own view as to the qualifications they value and/or demand. Take religion out of the question for the moment; if I'm hiring, say, a software writer I am free (a) to specify that candidates should have at least a relevant bachelor's degree (thus excluding those who only have a certificate) and (b) to prefer the candidate whose degree comes from University of X over the candidate with a degree from University of Y, because I have a high regard for the quality of the University of X degree.

It's no different when you bring religion back in. Any school is free to hire qualified teachers whether or not they have an approved religion certificate. But equally any school is free to required the approved religion certificate, or to prefer the candidate who has it over the candidate who hasn't. And if a significant number of schools do take that position, that something that teacher training colleges should know about, and they should either offer that qualification, or let prospective students know that they don't offer it.

I do not know whether the ETB schools will demand an approved religion certificate. I doubt it. But it's conceivable that a candidate with an approved certificate will, all other things being equal, have an edge over the candidate that doesn't, if the approved certificate is in fact the better-credentialled qualification. (The approved certificate has to be at least a level 7 on the NQAI framework, has to be validated by extern examiners, has to involve at least a set number of contact hours, etc, etc, so it's conceivable that on purely pedagogic grounds it will be a more attractive qualification than an unapproved certificate which may not have the same characteristics.)

recedite wrote: »

And then there is the question of established teachers in RC schools. None of them will have approved certs. Will they have to upgrade or convert their certs?

They might be encouraged to, I don't know, but I doubt that they will have to. They have already been hired, and you can't really fire somebody on the basis that he has failed to obtain a qualification which you didn't require him to have when you hired him.

By way of analogy, my sister-in-law qualified as a primary teacher (in Australia) many years ago, when the qualification was a three-year course. More recently, the qualification was upgraded to a four-year course, so younger teachers all have a four-year B.Ed. She didn't have to upgrade, but she (and many of her colleagues) chose to do so, on the basis that they would enhance their professional status and improve their promotion prospects by getting the better qualification. (Plus, the Education Department facilitated their upgrading by giving them study leave, paid their fees, etc).

Similarly, again in Australia, lots of already-qualified primary teachers take an additional qualification in religious education in order to enhance their employability in the Catholic education system (which comprises about 25% of primary school places). Some of them actively aim to work in the Catholic system; others are simply keeping their options open.

So, something like that could happen here. If there's a career advantage to having this particular qualification, people will take the qualification even if not required to. The fact that it's a qualification in teaching religion in particular doesn't really change the basic dynamic that's at work here.

But, of course, this is a qualification focussed on the teaching of religion, which is only a small part of the work of most primary teachers. So even if this dynamic does operate, it's not going to be a very big factor. Not many appointment/promotion decisions are going to come down to which candidate is the better-qualified religion teacher.

recedite

Good points, they make sense.

robindch

Bishops approve Hibernia College’s religious training programme

Irish Times wrote:

Private teacher training college Hibernia has received approval from the Catholic bishops for its religious education programme, removing any doubt about whether its graduates can teach in Catholic schools. At its autumn meeting last week, the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference approved what it called a “revised proposal” by Hibernia College to be included on a register of accredited courses.

Concerns were raised over the summer after a graduate seeking employment circulated a letter from a Catholic employer saying Hibernia’s religious diploma was not recognised by the Irish Episcopal Conference. Hibernia subsequently applied to be included on the list, which was first drawn up in 2011.

In a statement, the bishops said a working group established by its council for catechetics had explored submissions to its “Recognition of qualifications to teach Religious Education in Catholic Primary Schools”, and it was deemed that the most recent submission by Hibernia College met the requirements as set out by this document. Hibernia’s religious education programme was designed in partnership with retired Maynooth professor of moral theology Fr Vincent Twomey.

It ran into controversy in 2012 when Atheist Ireland claimed a number of lecture slides contained “untrue statements” about atheism, prompting the college to remove the material. Meanwhile, the Catholic Primary School Management Association (CPSMA) has issued a statement to boards of management, clarifying how to carry out elections this month.

It follows a claim made by a primary school principal that the issue of whether unmarried parents should be allowed to be nominated had been raised at board level, and that advice had been sought from the CPSMA. The claim had been made in an online forum for members of the Irish Primary Principals Network (IPPN).

The IPPN said it subsequently spoke to the principal and he acknowledged the information he posted was incorrect and that the CPSMA was never contacted on the matter. In a statement, the CPSMA said: “It is not the role of the school to seek clarification on marital status, the procedures make no reference to whether parents are married or unmarried.”

New boards for the State’s 3,200 primary schools will be appointed by December 1st under a nomination process that takes place every four years. Minister for Education and Skills Jan O’Sullivan has introduced new election procedures this year whereby schools can circulate a list of the names of all parents to each household inviting them to nominate candidates. The aim is to broaden the field of potential candidates, and attract individuals who might not normally be involved in parents’ groups.

expectationlost

robindch wrote: »

Bishops approve Hibernia College’s religious training programme

article link
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/bishops-approve-hibernia-college-s-religious-training-programme-1.2378656
and CPSMA statement http://cpsma.ie/election-of-parent-nominees-to-the-board-of-management/

Meanwhile, the Catholic Primary School Management Association (CPSMA) has issued a statement to boards of management, clarifying how to carry out elections this month.

Unmarried parents
It follows a claim made by a primary school principal that the issue of whether unmarried parents should be allowed to be nominated had been raised at board level, and that advice had been sought from the CPSMA.

recently guy telling me as a step dad, a catholic school wouldn't engage with him in relation to his step-children

Hotblack Desiato

Minister for Education and Skills Jan O’Sullivan has introduced new election procedures this year whereby schools can circulate a list of the names of all parents to each household inviting them to nominate candidates.

The aim is to broaden the field of potential candidates, and attract individuals who might not normally be involved in parents’ groups.

Wait, what!?!

Schools should have no right to do this. My data protection rights don't disappear just because I have a child enrolled in school.

Peregrinus

expectationlost wrote: »

recently guy telling me as a step dad, a catholic school wouldn't engage with him in relation to his step-children

"Catholic" may be a giant red herring there; this may have nothing to do with the patronage of the school. Legally, he's not related to the children in question; they have a mother and a father, and he is neither. Nor is he their guardian. The children's father might strongly object to the school engaging with the stepfather in relation to the children.

The last thing the school wants is to be dropped into some toxic family row. They are mostly going to take care to respect the legalities of the situation, which is that a stepfather is not related to the children and has no right to be involved in decisions about them.

Why would he expect the school to engage with him about the children? Is there some special circumstance that you have not mentioned?

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Wait, what!?!

Schools should have no right to do this. My data protection rights don't disappear just because I have a child enrolled in school.

Good point.

Here in Australia, when my child was enrolled in the local primary school, I was given a booklet listing the name of every child in the school, the class each child was in, their parents' names and (if supplied) their parents mobile numbers. The idea was to facilitate the development of a school community - make it easy to contact the parents of your child's friends, that kind of thing.

It was, to be honest, extremely useful, perhaps especially for me as a newly-arrived migrant with no existing social network. But, yes, it did strike me that Australian data protection standards must be extraordinarily low.

In fairness, I can't recall whether part of the mountain of paperwork we filled out in connection with enrolling the child included ticking a box to assent to being included in the booklet; perhaps it did. But if it did everyone must have ticked the box; I never failed to find any parent's name and contact details when I looked.

On edit: Following through the links provided by expectationlost, it seems that before circulating a list of names of parents the Board of Management is to invite parents to consent to having their names included in the list. So your name will only be supplied to other parents if you agree to its being supplied.

expectationlost

Peregrinus wrote: »

"Catholic" may be a giant red herring there; this may have nothing to do with the patronage of the school. Legally, he's not related to the children in question; they have a mother and a father, and he is neither. Nor is he their guardian. The children's father might strongly object to the school engaging with the stepfather in relation to the children.

The last thing the school wants is to be dropped into some toxic family row. They are mostly going to take care to respect the legalities of the situation, which is that a stepfather is not related to the children and has no right to be involved in decisions about them.

Why would he expect the school to engage with him about the children? Is there some special circumstance that you have not mentioned?

not sure he wasn't a guardian

Peregrinus

expectationlost wrote: »

not sure he wasn't a guardian

It would be highly unusual, I'd have to say, if the children's mother and father were both still living. Plus, if he was a guardian, I can't see why the school wouldn't engage with him.

expectationlost

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Wait, what!?!

Schools should have no right to do this. My data protection rights don't disappear just because I have a child enrolled in school.

badly worded sentence I hope

http://cpsma.ie/category/categories/boards-of-management-2015-2019/
Template Letters For Nomination/Election Of Parent Nominees To The Board Of Management

• [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Please find attached Consent Form. If you think that you will be nominated at the meeting and are willing to put your name forward for election as parent nominee to the Board of Management, please complete, sign and date the Consent Form and return it to the school no later than [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](insert date). [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Only tick the box if you are happy for the information that relates to that box to be sent to other parents. If your spouse/partner (being a parent of a child in the school) wishes to be nominated s/he must furnish the school with a separate Consent Form) [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]

Queenalocin

Peregrinus wrote: »

Good point.

Here in Australia, when my child was enrolled in the local primary school, I was given a booklet listing the name of every child in the school, the class each child was in, their parents' names and (if supplied) their parents mobile numbers. The idea was to facilitate the development of a school community - make it easy to contact the parents of your child's friends, that kind of thing.

It was, to be honest, extremely useful, perhaps especially for me as a newly-arrived migrant with no existing social network. But, yes, it did strike me that Australian data protection standards must be extraordinarily low.

In fairness, I can't recall whether part of the mountain of paperwork we filled out in connection with enrolling the child included ticking a box to assent to being included in the booklet; perhaps it did. But if it did everyone must have ticked the box; I never failed to find any parent's name and contact details when I looked.

On edit: Following through the links provided by expectationlost, it seems that before circulating a list of names of parents the Board of Management is to invite parents to consent to having their names included in the list. So your name will only be supplied to other parents if you agree to its being supplied.

We got booklets like that when our children started in primary school, best resource ever! It was great way for everyone to get to know each other and the kids. The option to be included was given when we were filling out details at the first school meeting in the May before they started.