Paypal to announce about new 1000 jobs?

Max Power1

liammur wrote: »

Willie O Dea has stated that those paypal jobs should have gone to Limerick. This is the guy that failed to bring in 1 major employer into city or county during the entire celtic tiger.

Hypocites.

Why?
Im astounded that Dundalk was selected (given Irish poor infrastructure I'm surprised that the jobs were sent to Ireland at all) However the new site is less than an hour away from the existing Blanchardstown, on a motorway, and also from Dublin Airport, given that the site is going to work with other PayPal sites (like in the US, like in Newcastle UK, or Luxembourg) that need air connections.

How is Limerick a more viable candidate? I fail to see the logic of Limerick.

murphaph

liammur wrote: »

Willie O Dea has stated that those paypal jobs should have gone to Limerick. This is the guy that failed to bring in 1 major employer into city or county during the entire celtic tiger.

Hypocites.

Hypocrite he is, and a few other things, but it is NOT the job of ministers (or any politicians tbh) to bring jobs to their constituencies! Have we learned nothing about parish pump politics at this stage?

liammur

murphaph wrote: »

Hypocrite he is, and a few other things, but it is NOT the job of ministers (or any politicians tbh) to bring jobs to their constituencies! Have we learned nothing about parish pump politics at this stage?

Getting no major employer into Limerick city or county in over 15 years goes just a little beyond parish pump politics I would imagine.

Total neglect of a region, and complete disregard for the many small businesses who have now gone bust but who did pay the wages of our politicians springs to my mind.

liammur

Max Power1 wrote: »

Why?
Im astounded that Dundalk was selected (given Irish poor infrastructure I'm surprised that the jobs were sent to Ireland at all) However the new site is less than an hour away from the existing Blanchardstown, on a motorway, and also from Dublin Airport, given that the site is going to work with other PayPal sites (like in the US, like in Newcastle UK, or Luxembourg) that need air connections.

How is Limerick a more viable candidate? I fail to see the logic of Limerick.

The logic is, he's now outside of government, and crying for jobs. Did nothing when he was a minister. Let 15 years go by before he said jobs are needed, despite several big closures.

As for Louth getting those jobs, they badly needed them as well and no one would begrudge them getting them.

waxon-waxoff

I dont know the details but i assume most of these jobs are for people with English and another language, so useless for most of the unemployed in Co Louth. I dont know why the IDA keep focusing on these glamourous projects when all the workers have to be imported.

Dundalk wont be an easy sell to prospective employees either.

raymon

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

I dont know the details but i assume most of these jobs are for people with English and another language, so useless for most of the unemployed in Co Louth. I dont know why the IDA keep focusing on these glamourous projects when all the workers have to be imported.

Dundalk wont be an easy sell to prospective employees either.

Ok let's get the IDA to look for companies that hire people with absolutely no education. Great idea . Good thinking ..........

mikemac1

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

I dont know the details but i assume most of these jobs are for people with English and another language, so useless for most of the unemployed in Co Louth. I dont know why the IDA keep focusing on these glamourous projects when all the workers have to be imported.

Dundalk wont be an easy sell to prospective employees either.

The jobs are coming over the next four years

Even if you applied today for an immediate hire it could be over two months to your start date

Plenty of time to get the basics and by summer you'd be doing well in your new language.
And sure if you're unemployed you could dedicate yourself to it, even an hour a day

IDA don't control education unfortunately

raymon

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

I dont know the details but i assume most of these jobs are for people with English and another language, so useless for most of the unemployed in Co Louth. I dont know why the IDA keep focusing on these glamourous projects when all the workers have to be imported.

Dundalk wont be an easy sell to prospective employees either.

If Joan Burton is any good she will set up language courses in French, Swahili, Hindi etc and send the people of Louth who are long term unemployed to upskill.

Another crowd could get certified in basic computing.

That way these "glamorous" jobs could be filled locally.

Apparently Dundalk was an "easy sell " .

jester77

waxon-waxoff wrote: »

I dont know the details but i assume most of these jobs are for people with English and another language, so useless for most of the unemployed in Co Louth. I dont know why the IDA keep focusing on these glamourous projects when all the workers have to be imported.

Dundalk wont be an easy sell to prospective employees either.

No company that requires employees with basic skills will setup in Ireland, and a lot of those that are already here are leaving or have left. This type of work is too expensive for Ireland, companies will select countries with lower costs for this work.

Languages are not difficult to learn, just takes time and effort. People shouldn't be using it as an excuse. I can't remember what the figures are, but something like 30% or 40% of those currently unemployed have been unemployed for over a year. You could easily learn a language in that time.

later12

jester77 wrote: »

Languages are not difficult to learn, just takes time and effort. People shouldn't be using it as an excuse. I can't remember what the figures are, but something like 30% or 40% of those currently unemployed have been unemployed for over a year. You could easily learn a language in that time.

Languages are generally useful for call centre/ support jobs which are a notoriously unstable source of employment in an economy like ours.

Quite apart from that, I think we are in danger of disregarding the high education participation rates of those who have left the labour force, and the impact their engagement with education has had on the unemployment statistics.

In last year's study on Unemployment & Labour Force Participation, Thomas Conefrey (CBI) suggested the extent to which almost 30% of those young people who left the labour force from Q3 2008-Q3 2010 (a total exit without whom unemployment would have went to almost 20%) are now classified as students.

This is particularly good news and combined with the emigration statistics, (which I do not agree are a particularly bad thing in economic terms, though I would rather if it were the older generations who were emigrating) suggest that Irish young people are more realistic about the economic environment, and the need for a pragmatic response, than some of the older generations may be, and certainly more realistic than they are usually credited as being.

liammur

later12 wrote: »

Languages are generally useful for call centre/ support jobs which are a notoriously unstable source of employment in an economy like ours.

Quite apart from that, I think we are in danger of disregarding the high education participation rates of those who have left the labour force, and the impact their engagement with education has had on the unemployment statistics.

In last year's study on Unemployment & Labour Force Participation, Thomas Conefrey (CBI) suggested the extent to which almost 30% of those young people who left the labour force from Q3 2008-Q3 2010 (a total exit without whom unemployment would have went to almost 20%) are now classified as students.

This is particularly good news and combined with the emigration statistics, (which I do not agree are a particularly bad thing in economic terms, though I would rather if it were the older generations who were emigrating) suggest that Irish young people are more realistic about the economic environment, and the need for a pragmatic response, than some of the older generations may be, and certainly more realistic than they are usually credited as being.

Young people emigrating are disastrous for the economy. This is what the last government didn't grasp, and unfortunately, neither do the current ones.

later12

liammur wrote: »

Young people emigrating are disastrous for the economy.

Not as disastrous as staying in Ireland doing nothing, I'm afraid.

Ireland enjoys access to a very fluid labour market and a ready reallocation of workers as soon as the economic conditions show sign of improving. I think there are lots of social and community downsides to youth emigration, and as I said I would prefer if it were the older age groups packing their bags, but I don't believe that the "disaster for the economy" has been established.

watchingthepols

murphaph wrote: »

Hypocrite he is, and a few other things, but it is NOT the job of ministers (or any politicians tbh) to bring jobs to their constituencies! Have we learned nothing about parish pump politics at this stage?

Willie O'Dea would differ with you on this one. He was on local radio the other claiming that the two Limerick based ministers should "pull their socks up" in relation to job creation in Limerick. It just shows how politically insignificant that O'Dea has become in Limerick politics that Jan O'Sullivan didn't even both personally slap him down. Instead she just let one of the juniors, Clr Joe Leddin swat him aside.

"Labour Councillor Joe Leddin has claimed that while a senior Minister in Government for several years Willie O’Dea’s record on delivering Jobs to Limerick was non-existent.

It is hypocritical of Willie O’Dea to claim that both Minister Noonan and O’Sullivan should try harder to deliver jobs when under his watch as a Government minister the IDA practically abandoned Limerick.

When the entire population of Limerick where worried about the prospect of Dell closing there manufacturing base in Limerick Minister O’Dea waited until the decision was all but made and then cost the taxpayer thousands of Euros by travelling on board the Government jet to visit Michael Dell in Texas.

Two weeks later thousands of Limerick workers lost their jobs and to add insult to injury Willie O’Dea then went on the national airwaves and stated that he was in advanced talks with Dell for the recruitment of 700 new jobs thus providing false hope to those seeking new employment opportunities.

Willie O’Dea as the late Jim kemmy stated is consistent if nothing else, ‘Mighty Mouse in Limerick and Church Mouse in the Dail’. When the storm clouds gathered over Shannon Airport and the axing of the vital Shannon to Heathrow flights Willie O’Dea disappeared. The flights are back thanks to the thousands of Limerick and Clare people who marched to demand there return.

Willie O’Dea can now do what he does best running around the City posing for photographs with nurses who his Government crucified with cutbacks, or demanding that more jobs be delivered for Limerick despite his own abysmal record of non-performance."

http://www.labour.ie/joeleddin/news/13299095364474.html

I'm no fan of the Limerick Labour Party but at least they are not putting up with O'Dea's nonsense in the media any longer. Clearly these jobs were never heading in our direction here in Limerick.

[MOD]watchingthepols, this thread isn't about Willie O'Dea, and it seems like every post you've made on boards.ie is.[/MOD]

liammur

later12 wrote: »

Not as disastrous as staying in Ireland doing nothing, I'm afraid.

Ireland enjoys access to a very fluid labour market and a ready reallocation of workers as soon as the economic conditions show sign of improving. I think there are lots of social and community downsides to youth emigration, and as I said I would prefer if it were the older age groups packing their bags, but I don't believe that the "disaster for the economy" has been established.

It's the spend. Youth spend, older generation save.

Now, read that Noonan & co. and you won't have to scratch you heads anymore wondering why spending is down.

murphaph

liammur wrote: »

Getting no major employer into Limerick city or county in over 15 years goes just a little beyond parish pump politics I would imagine.

Total neglect of a region, and complete disregard for the many small businesses who have now gone bust but who did pay the wages of our politicians springs to my mind.

Limerick has been provided with excellent infrastructure, well beyond what a regional UK city of the same size could dream of getting and at least comparable or better than similar sized cities in Ireland. It has an airport with connections to the US and Europe. It is rail connected. It has a good university.

If Limerick can't attract foreign direct investment with these advantages, then perhaps the issue lies somewhere else. Limerick hasn't been ignored at all. It is obviously not attractive enough for other reasons (certainly not a lack of support from the state, given the excellent infrastructure to be found in and around the region).

mikemac1

watchingthepols wrote: »

It is hypocritical of Willie O’Dea to claim that both Minister Noonan and O’Sullivan should try harder to deliver jobs when under his watch as a Government minister the IDA practically abandoned Limerick.

Politicians don't do a whole lot when it comes to this, you are giving them too much credit and blame.

About the only thing they can do is lobby for State jobs, Tipp North got six hundred jobs for Revenue as they had two senior Ministers back then and this was before decentralization.
Or lobby on universities and UL is one of the finest in the country so Limerick has done well there.

You will hear about your local councillor take their wife or husband off to Boston or New York on St Patrick Day and claim it's to attract jobs and build relationships and go to Irish-American associations.
But it's just a holiday at rate payers expense. :mad:

Keep the politicians out of this, they only mess things up

And I know Limerick people look at what Galway has achieved and how they are attracting new jobs but it's not down to the local politicians.
Some right wasters in Galway too, the city that reelected Frank Fahy for decades :pac:

raymon

mikemac1 wrote: »

Politicians don't do a whole lot when it comes to this, you are giving them too much credit and blame.

About the only thing they can do is lobby for State jobs, Tipp North got six hundred jobs for Revenue as they had two senior Ministers back then and this was before decentralization.
Or lobby on universities and UL is one of the finest in the country so Limerick has done well there.

You will hear about your local councillor take their wife or husband off to Boston or New York on St Patrick Day and claim it's to attract jobs and build relationships and go to Irish-American associations.
But it's just a holiday at rate payers expense. :mad:

Keep the politicians out of this, they only mess things up

And I know Limerick people look at what Galway has achieved and how they are attracting new jobs but it's not down to the local politicians.
Some right wasters in Galway too, the city that reelected Frank Fahy for decades :pac:

I think the point is that Willie is begrudging the jobs that have gone to Dundalk, when he should be celebrating the fact that jobs came to the country.

Well done Dundalk.

Zip it Michael Martin , and Willie o Dea.

liammur

murphaph wrote: »

Limerick has been provided with excellent infrastructure, well beyond what a regional UK city of the same size could dream of getting and at least comparable or better than similar sized cities in Ireland. It has an airport with connections to the US and Europe. It is rail connected. It has a good university.

If Limerick can't attract foreign direct investment with these advantages, then perhaps the issue lies somewhere else. Limerick hasn't been ignored at all. It is obviously not attractive enough for other reasons (certainly not a lack of support from the state, given the excellent infrastructure to be found in and around the region).

Of course the issue lies elsewhere. This is exactly my point.

Companies get better incentives from the IDA under the BMW scheme to set up in Galway. So why on earth would they even consider Limerick.
Companies don't locate for the beaches, they locate for the incentives.

murphaph

liammur wrote: »

Of course the issue lies elsewhere. This is exactly my point.

Companies get better incentives from the IDA under the BMW scheme to set up in Galway. So why on earth would they even consider Limerick.
Companies don't locate for the beaches, they locate for the incentives.

Shouldn't your argument be with incentivisation schemes then? If the problem is that BMW counties are getting more investment than Limerick, then the solution is to remove all these eilly incentives completely and let companies choose the location based on business need, not what incentives they can be offered, no?

You ask "why would companies even consider Limerick?" but companies locate outside of BMW counties all the time. Limerick has far superior infrastructure to most if not all BMW counties. Limerick needs to work on its reputation tbh. It's even known beyond Ireland for all the wrong reasons (fairly or unfairly).

gurramok

later12 wrote: »

Quite apart from that, I think we are in danger of disregarding the high education participation rates of those who have left the labour force, and the impact their engagement with education has had on the unemployment statistics.

In last year's study on Unemployment & Labour Force Participation, Thomas Conefrey (CBI) suggested the extent to which almost 30% of those young people who left the labour force from Q3 2008-Q3 2010 (a total exit without whom unemployment would have went to almost 20%) are now classified as students.

Any idea what the unemployment rate would be in a scenario if including this group of under 24's PLUS the over 24's who went back to education?

liammur

murphaph wrote: »

Shouldn't your argument be with incentivisation schemes then? If the problem is that BMW counties are getting more investment than Limerick, then the solution is to remove all these eilly incentives completely and let companies choose the location based on business need, not what incentives they can be offered, no?

You ask "why would companies even consider Limerick?" but companies locate outside of BMW counties all the time. Limerick has far superior infrastructure to most if not all BMW counties. Limerick needs to work on its reputation tbh. It's even known beyond Ireland for all the wrong reasons (fairly or unfairly).

I think it's a bit silly to have a scheme in place for years in 1 area to the detriment of an area 60 miles down the road. Clearly, that scheme has worked wonders for Galway. But other counties who qualify under the BMW scheme like Donegal/Sligo/Roscommon/Mayo can't get jobs either, because Galway is the obvious choice.

Look at what the developmental scheme did for the IFSC in Dublin. Every region needs assistance. Government policy, whether we like it or not, defines a region.

watchingthepols

mikemac1 wrote: »

You will hear about your local councillor take their wife or husband off to Boston or New York on St Patrick Day and claim it's to attract jobs and build relationships and go to Irish-American associations.
But it's just a holiday at rate payers expense. :mad:

Keep the politicians out of this, they only mess things up

Well, our Mayor & deputy Mayor here in Limerick think that politicians have a role to play in creating business opportunities & job creation as they are heading off to China shortly.

"AFTER the landmark visit of Chinese vice-president Xi Jinping to the region at the weekend, it has emerged that the Mayor of Limerick Jim Long is to lead a local delegation to Nanjing next week."

"Mayor Long said he would leave for China next week, accompanied by Deputy Mayor Kevin Kiely, an official from City Hall and a representative from the education sector in Limerick."

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/long_march_to_china_mayor_leads_limerick_delegation_to_nanjing_1_3548891

Daisyboo18

ardmacha wrote: »

So what percentage of French and German speaking jobs in the new facility, languages widely enough taught at present, will go to native Irish people with no connection to those places?

ArdMhaca....

seriously get a grip.... regardless of the amount of these jobs go to "irish people" is irrelevant.... the opening of this centre in Dundalk with 1000 staff will boost the economy north and south of the border.... if Paypal have to recruit 500 of these people from outside of Ireland, that will be 500 people who need accomodation.... 500 people that will need to shop..... 500 people who may socialise at the weekend... therefore creating more work for those who wish to do so, in hospitality/ retail. And PayPal is a European centre... which means they have to speak to their customers in their language......

ardmacha

Daisyboo18 wrote:

ArdMhaca....

seriously get a grip...

Get a grip yourself and stop quoting people out of context.

Daisyboo18 wrote:

the opening of this centre in Dundalk with 1000 staff will boost the economy north and south of the border.... if Paypal have to recruit 500 of these people from outside of Ireland, that will be 500 people who need accomodation.... 500 people that will need to shop..... 500 people who may socialise at the weekend... therefore creating more work for those who wish to do so, in hospitality/ retail. And PayPal is a European centre... which means they have to speak to their customers in their language......

I absolutely agree and have never said otherwise.

_Kaiser_

To be fair to ardmacha, it's all very well FG/FF grandstanding in the media about "1000 new jobs for Ireland/Dundalk/wherever" but it's not much good to the unemployed of that area if they're not qualified for these jobs and THAT comes down to education.

Having worked in various multinationals over the years, the preference for these roles is native speakers of the required language. I doubt there's anything discriminatory in it (before the "racist"/"dey tuk our jobs" brigade get too wound up) but more likely that someone who learns it as an abstract skill isn't going to necessarily understand all the regional variations or nuances that come with being a local so to speak - no more than someone newly arrived here would necessarily understand why everything is "grand", where the "jacks" is, what a "slice pan" is and so on.
That said, certainly when I spent some time in Holland in the mid-80s, US/UK TV was shown there with subtitles rather dubbed so the "details" can be picked up that way. Here of course we don't as a rule cater for German/French TV last I checked except TV5.

Of course we waste so much time (still) at primary/secondary level on a practically dead language like Irish and the catholic religion (which is completely inappropriate in my opinion given the scandals and abuse but also the increasingly multi-denominational nature of our schools) that our kids are behind the curve from the start anyway.

Religion, like Irish belongs in the home - if you feel so strongly about your kids knowing their "heritage", teach it to them or hire tutors - but don't expect 25 other kids to endure your "pet project" while their counterparts in Europe learn 2/3 other languages fluently and 20 years later arrive here to fill these jobs instead.

avalon68

At work so havent had time to read through the whole thread - its clear that 2nd languages, and lack there of is always going to be an issue. Im not sure that this can be tackled in schools - yes, we can teach basics, but to become fluent, you need immersion in a language. It could be tackled at university - mandatory semester abroad or something, but Im sure there are financial reasons against that. Its not uniquely an Irish problem either - Im stateside at the moment and was talking to someone last week who just got a job with a major telecommunications company. The 1st 4 weeks of his contract will be in China (on a training wage - I guess to subsidize costs), where he informs me that for every time he or a colleague speaks english to each other during the training hours they will be docked pay!. Maybe if the irish government agreed to subsidize programs like this for new employees or something it might help with getting Irish people into these jobs.....although they would still need the basics first.

RichardAnd

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Of course we waste so much time (still) at primary/secondary level on a practically dead language like Irish and the catholic religion (which is completely inappropriate in my opinion given the scandals and abuse but also the increasingly multi-denominational nature of our schools) that our kids are behind the curve from the start anyway.

Religion, like Irish belongs in the home - if you feel so strongly about your kids knowing their "heritage", teach it to them or hire tutors - but don't expect 25 other kids to endure your "pet project" while their counterparts in Europe learn 2/3 other languages fluently and 20 years later arrive here to fill these jobs instead.

Indeed, I find it hard to disagree with this sentiment to the language of Irish. There are a few problems with Irish being compulsory, as I see it.

Firstly, it is indicative of Irish society's dire fear of change. My grandmother once summed up the tuition of Irish with the sentence "Irish has always been taught here, that's just the way it is." I will forgive a 84 year old woman for holding such an opinion but to the younger generations, many question the sagacity of teaching Irish when it is of less use than other languages and, further, it can hardly be said that Irish is catching on.

I have encountered many people in my time who do not actually speak Irish yet claim vociferously that it is a pillar of our culture and should be compulsory. Essentially, they are claiming something akin to this; "I never bothered to learn Irish, but I think you should have to." Strange, wouldn't you say?

Another problem with Irish that really irritates me is that it's champions seem to think that the language should be forced upon people. If a language like French was compulsory, it would have the vindication of being a ubiquitous language to account for it being compulsory but Irish does not have this. The said individuals seem to think that their interests and beliefs should be forced upon children from their first day of school.

Now, the argument used to counter the very point I'm making here and to justify Irish in a broader sense is that Irish, as a second language to English, can broaden the mind and make the acquisition of other languages easier. This is true, no argument from me. However, Spanish, as a second language to English, can also broaden the mind and make the acquisition of other languages easier too and Spanish rivals English for global usage so what advantage has Irish got over that? In fact, Spanish has the further boon of being a Romance language which would thus make the learning of Italian, French and many other tongues much easier. what has Irish got over all of that?

Let's also pay due consideration to the time spent attempting to teach Irish in school. When I was in primary school, a full two hours of each day was dedicated to Irish at the expense of maths, english and other subjects. This is also true for many schools to this day and the net result is that many young Irish people have appalling English and math skills. This was recently illustrated to me by a question from my younger cousin who wishes to apply tot he same computer course I attended. Before asking about general course subjects, his very first question was "it it alot of maths?" Many people here seem to have a pathological fear mathematics which, to me, demonstrates that time in school is not being used efficiently.

Lastly, I want to address one little aspect of Irish that constantly comes up; "it's our culture!" Well the issue with that is that culture is hugely subjective. To me, culture is literature, classical music and the other aspects of the arts but to someone else, it could be cookery and archery. Hence, "our culture" is quite an empty phrase.

Furthermore, many Irish people seem to be under the impression that Irish history and folklore is something unparalleled by the equivalent of any other state. Irish history and social hallmarks are special and certainly interesting but they are just the the stories of Ireland and many counties have histories just as rich. Look at Italy, the home of some of the greatest minds in history, the envy of the world in terms of art and the birthplace of the renaissance. Ireland has some great stories and history but I think that schools drilling Irish into people somehow cuts them off from gaining a broad view of the world.

Lastly, let me just make one final comment regarding Irish "culture." One thing Ireland really does excel in is the art of literature. Irish writers today still produce outstanding works and for such a tiny country, we can lay claim to some of the greatest literary geniuses in history and most of them wrote their works in English. Consider that.

Essay over gentlemen, I was just on a roll .

djpbarry

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

To be fair to ardmacha, it's all very well FG/FF grandstanding in the media about "1000 new jobs for Ireland/Dundalk/wherever" but it's not much good to the unemployed of that area if they're not qualified for these jobs...

I wouldn’t really agree with that – an extra 1,000 people working in an area is bound to be good for the local economy, assuming that many of them will live in the general Louth area. It’s obviously also good for the exchequer as that’s 1,000 extra people paying income taxes.

RichardAnd wrote: »

When I was in primary school, a full two hours of each day was dedicated to Irish at the expense of maths, english and other subjects. This is also true for many schools to this day and the net result is that many young Irish people have appalling English and math skills.

I don’t think that’s really a causal link. The reason many Irish kids (and British kids too) have such poor maths skills is simply because they’re not prepared to put the effort in to studying it – they don’t see the point. However, I would expect that to change to some extent over the coming years as the jobs market has become more competitive again and the numbers gunning for science and engineering courses picks up.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

I wouldn’t really agree with that – an extra 1,000 people working in an area is bound to be good for the local economy, assuming that many of them will live in the general Louth area. It’s obviously also good for the exchequer as that’s 1,000 extra people paying income taxes.

It won't produce high value jobs for the locals like graduates.

On grasp of languages, this article says 66% of us cannot speak a second language. Strip out those who can speak Irish and that percentage climbs. http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/survey-two-thirds-of-irish-people-unable-to-speak-second-language-556202.html

RichardAnd wrote:

Indeed, I find it hard to disagree with this sentiment to the language of Irish. There are a few problems with Irish being compulsory, as I see it.

Despite your rant against Irish and surrounding the poor quality teaching of Irish as we all know, the problem is not with Irish language solely, plenty of students learn the basic grasp of foreign languages up to the Leaving Cert.

The problem is that the grasp of the languages(including Irish) do be forgotten within a short space of time when they leave school. How do we counteract this?

RichardAnd

gurramok wrote: »

Despite your rant against Irish and surrounding the poor quality teaching of Irish as we all know, the problem is not with Irish language solely, plenty of students learn the basic grasp of foreign languages up to the Leaving Cert.

The problem is that the grasp of the languages(including Irish) do be forgotten within a short space of time when they leave school. How do we counteract this?

Just before I make any sort of response, let me just say that if you took the time to write a long post outlining your beliefs on a particular subject, I would not label it as a "rant" but rather, a detailing of your opinion. I would appreciate that respect in future.

Now then, you are correct that language skills stagnate and decline without constant use. Ultimately, if an individual does not want to use a language, then no one can make them do so after they have left school but there is a huge difference between Irish and French (for example) in this regard. Irish is only of use within certain areas of the country and the material available in Irish is minuscule when compared to French.

If I wished to indulge my French, I would have no problem finding media articles, books, films and many other sources online and these would be materials designed for French speakers and not simply texts in Irish for the sake of it, as alot of Irish material is. It's easy and indeed, good fun, to use a second language and many young people are wise enough to see the massive advantage that good language skills can offer. This, I believe, is one of the major reasons Irish just doesn't catch on; it's just not all that useful.

No one is saying that there is anything wrong with Irish and I've no wish at all to see it die. All I was trying to say in my post is that the teaching of Irish to the extent it currently enjoys just can not be justified in a modern world. Furthermore, if it were not forced upon people and left as optional, the uptake might increase as people tend to take to things better when they choose to do so of their own will.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

It won't produce high value jobs for the locals like graduates.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that a portion of those 1,000 jobs will not be "high-value".

We have one poster complaining that the unemployed in the area will not be sufficiently qualified for these jobs and a second complaining that the jobs are not sufficiently high value. There really is no pleasing some people.

war_child

I check boards every day ...read different threads get different points of view and rarely ever respond , but in this case i feel i must.

People wake the fug up ...are we all soon to be politicians here do WE as a people have any say in where a business sets up or the the standard of those they choose to employ.

Instead of arguing about the location of a certain enterprise why not be glad for those who are in that area that many families will be in a better position then they currently seem to be.

Now before people say anything i am Irish i love Ireland and i get really surprised when i read threads which are basically just people giving out. Its time we stopped pointing the finger and looked deeply in the mirror.

I am currently unemployed and have been for the last 2 years i live in waterford which is a town that was desimated by the downturn both in construction and production i would love for abig multinational to take roots here but alas as with most of our smaller towns the infrastructure to support such large companies is not readily available.

Do i harbour ill will against Dublin or Dundalk ...NO , i am originally from Dublin and have numerous friends and family that were hit badly by losing jobs, mortgage increases, cuts on welfare. I think rather of the positive that hopefully some of the friends and family may be able to get themselves back to a respectable level of living.

I really just wish that people in Ireland would band together instead of engaging in this round of "what the jones have ".

Remember people Toicfaidh Ar La ....means so much more now, have patience your day will come.

ardmacha

Going back to my previous point, thousands of people in Louth and about learned French at school. What proportion of French speaking jobs in Paypal will they get? It seems to me that these jobs will go to native speakers. You only have to see the objections here on boards to the accents of people manning outsourced support in India.

The real tragedy is that many of the technical jobs in these places will also go abroad and there should be no objection to a Dundalk accent in SQL or Java, but not enough people learn these things.

avalon68

ardmacha wrote: »

Going back to my previous point, thousands of people in Louth and about learned French at school. What proportion of French speaking jobs in Paypal will they get? It seems to me that these jobs will go to native speakers. You only have to see the objections here on boards to the accents of people manning outsourced support in India.

The real tragedy is that many of the technical jobs in these places will also go abroad and there should be no objection to a Dundalk accent in SQL or Java, but not enough people learn these things.

I don't think, that as mentioned by some posters, that lack of proficiency in languages is due to teaching Irish, religion...whatever else is deemed of little value to some. Rather the way it's taught is the problem. I learned Irish from age 4 to 17' and French from 12 to 17.....I am fluent in neither, but whenever I go to France I always muddle through....it's there somewhere inside, but instead of having French conversations in class we seemed to spend the majority of time learning to reem of verbs and letters and sample exam papers. To a certain extent it is far easier in Germany or France to have English as a second language as there is heavy media / tv coverage....and a constant stream of irish and British tourists who expect everyone to speak English to them wherever they go:p

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

I find it incredibly hard to believe that a portion of those 1,000 jobs will not be "high-value".

We have one poster complaining that the unemployed in the area will not be sufficiently qualified for these jobs and a second complaining that the jobs are not sufficiently high value. There really is no pleasing some people.

Nice twist on words.

Agree that the vast majority of Irish graduates(unemployed or still in college) in Louth for example have not a hope of landing one of the jobs that require you to have a foreign language?

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

Agree that the vast majority of Irish graduates(unemployed or still in college) in Louth for example have not a hope of landing one of the jobs that require you to have a foreign language?

Probably not, but how many of the 1,000 jobs require a second language? And why are you only focusing on Irish people? Are there not plenty of non-Irish people in Ireland?

At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter who these jobs go to, it’s still a positive development.

Employment creates employment.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

Probably not, but how many of the 1,000 jobs require a second language? And why are you only focusing on Irish people? Are there not plenty of non-Irish people in Ireland?

At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter who these jobs go to, it’s still a positive development.

Employment creates employment.

Are you reading the posts at all in the thread? I answered your questions in post 44.http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77223946&postcount=44

89% of the population of Louth are Irish, thats why we should focus on local needs first. http://www.lceb.ie/equalatwork/louth.html

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

Are you reading the posts at all in the thread?

I apologise - I’ve not read the entire thread yet no, but...

gurramok wrote: »

I answered your questions in post 44.http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77223946&postcount=44

...my question was rhetorical. Your post says that half the jobs will require foreign language skills. However, it does not say that fluency is required for all of these – the fact that training is being provided underlines this. So, that means at 500+ jobs that Irish people may be considered for.

gurramok wrote: »

89% of the population of Louth are Irish, thats why we should focus on local needs first. http://www.lceb.ie/equalatwork/louth.html

Well that’s just plain silly – we should retard progress to create more jobs for less qualified people?

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

...my question was rhetorical. Your post says that half the jobs will require foreign language skills. However, it does not say that fluency is required for all of these – the fact that training is being provided underlines this. So, that means at 500+ jobs that Irish people may be considered for.

So please tell how long it trains Irish people to be fluent technically in a foreign language, a few months, a few years?

djpbarry wrote: »

Well that’s just plain silly – we should retard progress to create more jobs for less qualified people?

No, if you cannot find a locally suitable qualified candidate first then find one from abroad. This should be especially the case for non-EU migrants. Your govt(UK) is implementing this policy in most occupations where this is not a skill shortage at home.

So lets see, half the jobs at Paypal are immediately available to Irish people who largely cannot speak foreign languages, do you expect the others(including grads) who do not qualify for the other half of the jobs to work in the canteen at Paypal?!

And how will creating these jobs which need foreign language skills dent the unemployment rate in Ireland as a whole?

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

So please tell how long it trains Irish people to be fluent technically in a foreign language, a few months, a few years?

There you go again - you don't have to be fluent in a language to be able to work with it. And why the emphasis on Irish people? Do they take longer to learn languages than everyone else in the world?

gurramok wrote: »

No, if you cannot find a locally suitable qualified candidate first then find one from abroad.

Are employers in Ireland going out of their way to import staff instead of hiring locals?

gurramok wrote: »

Your govt(UK) is implementing this policy in most occupations where this is not a skill shortage at home.

So what? Just because the UK government implements something Ireland should too?

Ireland needs fewer restrictions on immigration, not more. It is now next to impossible to obtain a work permit in Ireland, which makes it extremely unattractive for non-EU citizens. Despite Ireland’s high unemployment, many employers in Ireland, particularly those in the technology sector, are struggling to fill vacancies – this has been well documented in the media. Lifting restrictions on work permits would help employers fill those positions and boost economic growth.

gurramok wrote: »

So lets see, half the jobs at Paypal are immediately available to Irish people who largely cannot speak foreign languages, do you expect the others(including grads) who do not qualify for the other half of the jobs to work in the canteen at Paypal?!

What’s wrong with working in a canteen?

Oh I see – canteen work is below Irish graduates, is it? What about the non-graduates? The lads who can’t find any more construction work? They can’t work in a canteen?

gurramok wrote: »

And how will creating these jobs which need foreign language skills dent the unemployment rate in Ireland as a whole?

Well first of all, there are several hundred jobs that won’t require foreign language skills, aren’t there? Then of course there’s the fact that, whether you like it or not, there are non-Irish people in Ireland who do have foreign language skills. Finally, as I said already, jobs create jobs. Working people spend money on goods and services which obviously benefits the economy. And of course, more workers means more tax revenue.

I can’t believe you’re actually arguing that job creation is pointless if the jobs are going to foreigners – the short-sightedness is staggering.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

There you go again - you don't have to be fluent in a language to be able to work with it. And why the emphasis on Irish people? Do they take longer to learn languages than everyone else in the world?

Explain how one does not have to be fluent in a foreign language in order to fulfill a foreign language role?(2nd time asking)

Irish and British people struggle at languages, see link posted about that earlier.

djpbarry wrote: »

Are employers in Ireland going out of their way to import staff instead of hiring locals?

Are they?

djpbarry wrote: »

So what? Just because the UK government implements something Ireland should too?

Might help.

djpbarry wrote: »

Ireland needs fewer restrictions on immigration, not more. It is now next to impossible to obtain a work permit in Ireland, which makes it extremely unattractive for non-EU citizens. Despite Ireland’s high unemployment, many employers in Ireland, particularly those in the technology sector, are struggling to fill vacancies – this has been well documented in the media. Lifting restrictions on work permits would help employers fill those positions and boost economic growth.

Provide links to back that up.

djpbarry wrote: »

What’s wrong with working in a canteen?

Nothing. Should a graduate having studied 4yrs for a degree have their only opportunity serving salads? Thats a waste.

djpbarry wrote: »

Oh I see – canteen work is below Irish graduates, is it? What about the non-graduates? The lads who can’t find any more construction work? They can’t work in a canteen?

As a career for grads it is, you know it. They study for years to progress their career in a particular specialised field, they ain't temp part time jobs.

djpbarry wrote: »

Well first of all, there are several hundred jobs that won’t require foreign language skills, aren’t there? Then of course there’s the fact that, whether you like it or not, there are non-Irish people in Ireland who do have foreign language skills. Finally, as I said already, jobs create jobs. Working people spend money on goods and services which obviously benefits the economy. And of course, more workers means more tax revenue.

I can’t believe you’re actually arguing that job creation is pointless if the jobs are going to foreigners – the short-sightedness is staggering.

Asking a 2nd time, how does foreign language jobs dent the unemployment queue in Ireland and in this case Dundalk?

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

Explain how one does not have to be fluent in a foreign language in order to fulfill a foreign language role?

You're being deliberately disingenous - there are levels of proficiency in languages you know. If a foreign language is required for a role, that does not necessarily mean fluency is required.

gurramok wrote: »

Irish and British people struggle at languages...

No, English-speaking people are incredibly ****ing lazy when it comes to learning second languages because they expect the whole world to speak English.

gurramok wrote: »

Are they?

Might help.

I'm going to ignore these pointless responses.

gurramok wrote: »

Provide links to back that up.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/innovation/2012/0127/1224310600310.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0614/1224317871488.html
http://www.ibec.ie/Sectors/IMDA/IMDA.nsf/vPages/9387783ED1DF23678025784600359F8B?OpenDocument
http://www.cpl.ie/blog/post/98227089/it-skills-shortage
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0426/1224315187601.html

gurramok wrote: »

Should a graduate having studied 4yrs for a degree have their only opportunity serving salads?

I spent the first 9 months after I graduated working as a temp on the minimum wage. Didn’t do me any harm. It was certainly better than being unemployed.

gurramok wrote: »

As a career for grads it is...

Who said anything about a career?

gurramok wrote: »

They study for years to progress their career in a particular specialised field...

And if there are no jobs available in their “specialised field”?

gurramok wrote: »

Asking a 2nd time, how does foreign language jobs dent the unemployment queue in Ireland and in this case Dundalk?

Once again, jobs create jobs, don’t they? If I move to an area to take up a job, I’m going to be spending money on goods and services locally and nationally, aren’t I? That’s going to create a demand for goods and services, isn’t it? Which leads to increased need for staff among the providers of said goods and services, won’t it?

Then of course there is the obvious fact (already stated at least once) that there are undoubtedly unemployed people in the general Louth area (and elsewhere in the country who would be prepared to relocate) who speak languages other than English.

femur61

djpbarry wrote: »

The reason many Irish kids (and British kids too) have such poor maths skills is simply because they’re not prepared to put the effort in to studying it – they don’t see the point. However, I would expect that to change to some extent over the coming years as the jobs market has become more competitive again and the numbers gunning for science and engineering courses picks up.

Compared to the UK where they concentrate on two or three subjects for their A levels where those subjects are studied throughtly. We are making kids study badly lots of subjects which they have no interest in. How many people who will be employed will come from the across the border, its only a couple of miles from Dundalk.

djpbarry

femur61 wrote: »

Compared to the UK where they concentrate on two or three subjects for their A levels where those subjects are studied throughtly.

That's not necessarily a good thing. In my opinion, education in the UK becomes specialised at far too young an age. For example, few people in the UK study maths beyond their GCSEs.

femur61 wrote: »

We are making kids study badly lots of subjects which they have no interest in.

Nobody's making kids study badly - part of the learning process is learning how to study effectively. Especially if one plans to go on to third-level.

“Interest” is something that has to be taken with a pinch of salt when it comes to kids, because let’s face it: given the choice, most kids would study facebook rather than maths and English.

But anyway, I don’t think having kids study a variety of different things is a bad thing. The whole point of primary and secondary education is to produce rounded individuals. That’s not to say the leaving cert system could not be improved – it obviously could. But let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater and let’s certainly not use the UK as a model of how things should be.

raymon

This thread has been trudging on for six months where I have seen some people argue that 1000 jobs is a bad thing because Irish people are bad at languages.

In this same six months someone could have learned the basics of a new language , or brought their leaving cert French or German up to a good level.

1000 hours ( 8 hours per day m-f) would be loads if you are unemployed.

I have never seen such a defeatist and beaten attitude.

"Locals will never get a job there", or " those jobs will go to foreigners" is a failure of attitude.

Unbelievable

Degsy

So graduates(who are effectively just schoolleavers) shouldnt have to work in menial jobs because they have a degree?


That,ladies and gentleman is why unemployment is so high in this country.

Lazy ****ers with no work ethic whatsoever.

spank_inferno

I do find it a little bit odd that the company I work (in Telecoms) is nearly complete in its transfer of 430 English language, moderately skilled jobs to India, Africa & the UK.

PayPal announce 1000 foreign language jobs and are inevitably critical of our labour forces lack of languages.

Am I missing something here?

I don't speak a foreign language, I don't because I never wanted to learn one.
It doesn't make me less intelligent or capable than any other worker (language aside) & so I make no apologies for it.

However I would love to know why the government does nothing to prevent the export of jobs we can do, yet pisses itself like an excited dog over bringing in jobs we cannot!


People here need to lay off on workers just because we all are not fluent in the diverse range of languages sought by PayPal (which were never available in the vast majority of schools and never will be).

And besides, if PayPal don't like the workforce they can always leave, they are only here because we are effectively a tax-haven anyway.

djpbarry

spank_inferno wrote: »

I do find it a little bit odd that the company I work (in Telecoms) is nearly complete in its transfer of 430 English language, moderately skilled jobs to India, Africa & the UK.

PayPal announce 1000 foreign language jobs and are inevitably critical of our labour forces lack of languages.

Am I missing something here?

All jobs are not equal?

spank_inferno wrote: »

And besides, if PayPal don't like the workforce they can always leave, they are only here because we are effectively a tax-haven anyway.

So why haven't they set up shop in the Caymans or Bermuda?

gurramok

Those Paypal jobs announced in February are in the news today, surprise surprise at the results, all predictable. My point made.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paypal-forced-to-import-500-workers-and-warns-of-language-skills-crisis-3171118.html

Indo wrote:

THE online company that announced 1,000 new jobs in February yesterday said it is having trouble finding Irish workers with the necessary language skills.

Instead, PayPal has been forced to 'import' employees from abroad -- 500, or half of those required -- at a far higher cost.

Global operations vice-president Louise Phelan warned that we need to focus on language skills here to protect our status as a European gateway.

She said Ireland suffered from a "deficiency" in workers with second languages. "We are a gateway to Europe but we need to ensure we are supporting the languages. Absolutely there is a deficiency in languages in Ireland. I am bringing in 50pc of our language cover I require from 19 other countries."

Ms Phelan said the education system required a grassroots change to ensure future workers had the language and science qualifications the business world needed.

She highlighted current gaps in the number of people who speak German, Dutch and Nordic languages, and said alternative employee sourcing has been introduced -- but at a greater expense to the company.

"I have to give them relocation, pay for their travel, their board for seven to 10 days to get them in here," she said. "That shouldn't be a cost to the industry; the education system should have them groomed for me."

Reacting to her comments last night, the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation said that it took all such concerns very seriously.

In a statement, it said it "constantly monitors the skills needs of multinational companies which have invested, or are considering investing, here".

This relates in particular to guidance it receives from the Expert Group on Future Skills Needs, which identifies requirements for investment growth.

"Concerns expressed by companies are taken very seriously. A variety of new measures were introduced through the Action Plan for Jobs 2012 and further measures are currently being considered as part of the process of formulating the Action Plan for Jobs 2013."

A spokesman for the IDA said it was acutely aware that multi-nationals often needed bilingual staff. "The general history of staffing up such centres here is very good," he said.

"In those cases where the languages needed are very broad-based, companies may recruit in the wider European market."

BFDCH.

gurramok wrote: »

Explain how one does not have to be fluent in a foreign language in order to fulfill a foreign language role?(2nd time asking)

Irish and British people struggle at languages, see link posted about that earlier.



Are they?



Might help.



Provide links to back that up.



Nothing. Should a graduate having studied 4yrs for a degree have their only opportunity serving salads? Thats a waste.



As a career for grads it is, you know it. They study for years to progress their career in a particular specialised field, they ain't temp part time jobs.



Asking a 2nd time, how does foreign language jobs dent the unemployment queue in Ireland and in this case Dundalk?

I have a Spanish guy sitting beside me now who's English isn't perfect, selling enterprise products to the UK market. You don't need to be a native speaker to do it, but you do need a certain level of proficiency.
most of these guys learn the language in school/uni, then leave to work in a ****ty job over here or in some other english speaking company, get their skills up and then move on to better jobs related to their degrees.


We don't do that here, as soon as we finish our education we are expected to start work, if we want to develop language skills we need to start suggesting those that have left education go to work/live in a country with a foreign language.