Integration vs. Multiculturalism (See Mod In-Thread Warnings)

Nodin

Yonge Street wrote: »

I think we all could all agree that a secular state would aid cultural integration, yes? No religion should be given a privileged status in our constitution. Sure, our state laws may share certain values with various organized religions. For example, "Thou shalt not kill" is an important rule in Islam and Christianity (despite their followers not adhering strictly to it). But more importantly, our state laws do not agree with major organized religions on other issues, such as homosexuality. This is why I agree with the banning of religious symbols like the hijab and buqa in public.

The hijab doesn't cover the face.

lagente

JustinDee wrote: »

How is being unwilling to bow down to selective myopia and irrational sweeping generalisms a refusal to open my mind?? It is nothing of a kind.

But you are open to Islamic selective myopia and irrational sweeping generalisms, maybe

JustinDee

lagente wrote: »

What exactly does Xenophobic mean? Some definitions of it imply that race is not necessarily a part of it .

An irrational and generalistic fear and disdain of a person based on their demographic background or nationality.

Yonge Street

Jaafa wrote: »

Hi.

What makes you an ordinary Muslim?

Nodin wrote: »

The hijab doesn't cover the face.

I know what the hijab is. It's still a religious symbol and has no place in a secular state.

JustinDee

lagente wrote: »

But you are open to Islamic selective myopia and irrational sweeping generalisms, maybe

What's this supposed to insinuate? Stupid retort. Don't go mistaking me for some left-wing cause-du-jour pamphlet waver.
Its called an educational view based on experience.

Jaafa

Yonge Street wrote: »

What makes you an ordinary Muslim?

I follow Islam as it should be follow. i.e In such a way that allows me to practice my faith without effecting others who do not wish to be a part of it. I am not the exception I can assure you from my many interactions with dozens of Muslims in Ireland.

JustinDee

Yonge Street wrote: »

What makes you an ordinary Muslim?



I know what the hijab is. It's still a religious symbol and has no place in a secular state.

No churches, synagogues, mosques or dava? Crosses, yamulke, turbans or mass cards? Should we report catholics genuflecting perhaps?
Legally spurious.

Batsy

Yonge Street wrote: »

I know what the hijab is. It's still a religious symbol and has no place in a secular state.

I saw a Muslim woman driving a car whilst wearing a burka the other day. Surely that's fairly dangerous.

Of course, the authorities won't do the common-sense thing and ban Muslim women from wearing the burka whilst driving, though. Because, of course, that would be "racist" and "Islamaphobic", no matter that it might be putting the lives of road users and pedestrians at risk.

Dr Galen

Yonge Street wrote: »

I know what the hijab is. It's still a religious symbol and has no place in a secular state.

You do understand the concept of a secular state, right?

Yonge Street

Jaafa wrote: »

I follow Islam as it should be follow. i.e In such a way that allows me to practice my faith without effecting others who do not wish to be a part of it. I am not the exception I can assure you from my many interactions with dozens of Muslims in Ireland.

So you hate gays. That's ok in this country (despite what the liberals will tell you). Same way it's ok to despise Muslims. Once you don't incite hatred against these groups, you are living within the law.

Personally I'm an atheist. I place faith in science over fairytales. After you die, you rot in the ground I'm afraid. There is no heaven or hell. Think of all the time you've wasted praying or fasting. But of course, in your eyes it's not a waste.

Yonge Street

Dr Galen wrote: »

You do understand the concept of a secular state, right?

Yes I do. Allow me to clarify. A woman should not be wearing a hijab while working in a public role, such as a teacher. She is free to wear it inside her home.

KeithAFC

Yonge Street wrote: »

What makes you an ordinary Muslim?



I know what the hijab is. It's still a religious symbol and has no place in a secular state.

Religious symbols should be allowed in a democratic society if people wish to express themselves in that way. You can't take that away from people.

Dr Galen

Yonge Street wrote: »

Yes I do. Allow me to clarify. A woman should not be wearing a hijab while working in a public role, such as a teacher. She is free to wear it inside her home.

Why not?

How do you understand the secular state concept then? You do realise that secular does not mean no religion?

Jaafa

Yonge Street wrote: »

So you hate gays. That's ok in this country (despite what the liberals will tell you). Same way it's ok to despise Muslims. Once you don't incite hatred against these groups, you are living within the law.

No I don't hate gays.

Personally I'm an atheist. I place faith in science over fairytales. After you die, you rot in the ground I'm afraid. There is no heaven or hell. Think of all the time you've wasted praying or fasting. But of course, in your eyes it's not a waste.

Fair enough that's your opinion, I'll take into consideration.

One point I will make however is you might want to consider the ironic nature of hating Muslims, because they 'hate gays'.

Don't hate man.

lagente

KeithAFC wrote: »

Religious symbols should be allowed in a democratic society if people wish to express themselves in that way. You can't take that away from people.

Bit vague, really.

Yonge Street

I don't hate Muslims Jaafa. As I stated in the OP, I welcome cultural integration. I presume you're not of native white Irish descent? If not, well done for learning English and for adopting our tolerance of homosexuals. But then you can't be a "true" Muslims if you don't follow the religion's teachings to hate gays.

lagente

Jaafa wrote: »

No I don't hate gays.



Fair enough that's your opinion, I'll take into consideration.

One point I will make however is you might want to consider the ironic nature of hating Muslims, because they 'hate gays'.

Don't hate man.

But please do not simplify Jaafa.

Islam is in a widespread way, unfair to gays, muslim women, and to a lesser extent non-muslim Irish. Your calling yourself a muslim is not helping really.

KeithAFC

lagente wrote: »

Bit vague, really.

People should be entitled to express any religious symbol they want without being oppressed for it. That is how a secular and democratic society works.

Jaafa

Yonge Street wrote: »

I don't hate Muslims Jaafa. As I stated in the OP, I welcome cultural integration. I presume you're not of native white Irish descent? If not, well done for learning English and for adopting our tolerance of homosexuals. But then you can't be a "true" Muslims if you don't follow the religion's teachings to hate gays.

I would say you can't be a 'true Muslim' (whatever that means) if you do hate gays. Surely you are aware that any religion is completely subjective to one's interpretation of it. To suggest there is a consensus among all Muslims on ANY matter is simply not true. As I have mentioned before most Muslims I know wouldn't even bother wasting their time hating gays. And that includes Muslims living here that I know and in the mid east.

Hatred of gays is not restricted only to Muslims, nor is it restricted to religious people.

lagente

Jaafa wrote: »

I would say you can't be a 'true Muslim' (whatever that means) if you do hate gays. Surely you are aware that any religion is completely subjective to one's interpretation of it. To suggest there is a consensus among all Muslims on ANY matter is simply not true. As I have mentioned before most Muslims I know wouldn't even bother wasting their time hating gays. And that includes Muslims living here that I know and in the mid east.

Hatred of gays is not restricted only to Muslims, nor is it restricted to religious people.

Argument is poor.

Jaafa

lagente wrote: »

Argument is poor.

Thanks for the input. Ill try get it to a B+ level for you next time.

RichieC

Yonge Street wrote: »

I don't hate Muslims Jaafa. As I stated in the OP, I welcome cultural integration. I presume you're not of native white Irish descent? If not, well done for learning English and for adopting our tolerance of homosexuals. But then you can't be a "true" Muslims if you don't follow the religion's teachings to hate gays.

Muslims are hardly the only religion that teaches to despise gays..

Nodin

lagente wrote: »

But you are open to Islamic selective myopia and irrational sweeping generalisms, maybe

.....?

You stated earlier "We see clearly in Ireland how they widely treat women". Would you please clarify that statement?

You still haven't explained why you ascribe absolute uniformity of creed and fervourto muslims.

yonge street wrote:

I know what the hijab is. It's still a religious symbol and has no place in a secular state.

Regardless of the whole "secular state" thing, do you support a similar ban on sikh turbans, crucrifixes, yamulkes and suchlike?

I asked you a number of questions earlier to which I've received no reply -

How many women in France wear a full face covering?

What percentage of North Africans "haven't integrated"?

What percentage "despise the country they live in and trash their communes"?

yonge street wrote:

But then you can't be a "true" Muslims if you don't follow the religion's teachings to hate gays.

Considering that muslims themselves can't agree what a "true muslim" should be, I think your ability to discern one is an acheivement worthy of international recognition.

RichieC

Ireland, the secular state :rolleyes:

I give you the preamble of the Irish constitution:


In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom
is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all
actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our
Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our
fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and
unremitting struggle to regain the rightful
independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with
due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity,
so that the dignity and freedom of the individual
may be assured, true social order attained, the
unity of our country restored, and concord
established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this

Beubeu

Yonge Street wrote: »

1. Here is a list from an official French government website of no-go areas for whites, or "sensitive urban zones" as they are euphemistically known. http://sig.ville.gouv.fr/Atlas/ZUS/
.

the website gives a list of "dangerous" street in France... nothing to do about muslim praying in the street.

Actually2 streets were making the news in France. Lets say a 1000 Muslims are praying in that steet... 1000 out of 6M Muslims in France...

Yonge Street

Nodin wrote: »

.....?
Regardless of the whole "secular state" thing, do you support a similar ban on sikh turbans, crucrifixes, yamulkes and suchlike?

Yes, I do.

I asked you a number of questions earlier to which I've received no reply -

How many women in France wear a full face covering?

What percentage of North Africans "haven't integrated"?

What percentage "despise the country they live in and trash their communes"?

The French government doesn't collect census data on citizens' religion, ethnicity, or whether they wear a burqa/hijab, so I am unable to provide an informed answer to your question. And anyone who claims they can is a liar. The stats don't exist. However, a walk around Paris would indicate that a significant number of female Muslims wear some sort of head covering.

Beubeu

Yonge Street wrote: »

Yes I do. Allow me to clarify. A woman should not be wearing a hijab while working in a public role, such as a teacher. She is free to wear it inside her home.

What about on the street or in a supermarket? What about priest being in schools? So its ok for a catholic priest or a nune to be in a school but not a muslim's teacher wearing a vail? Under which law?

K-9

lagente wrote: »

Argument is poor.

Can you expand on that a little bit more!

Beubeu

Yonge Street wrote: »

Yes, I do.

The French government doesn't collect census data on citizens' religion, ethnicity, or whether they wear a burqa/hijab, so I am unable to provide an informed answer to your question. And anyone who claims they can is a liar. The stats don't exist. However, a walk around Paris would indicate that a significant number of female Muslims wear some sort of head covering.

SO what? I know that some of them do this as an act or "rebellion" against France and "white catholic" culture but do you realy think that muslim are the biggest problem in France, Ireland or Europe?
The biggest problem that France faces in the suburbs is insecurity. Perhaps if the French were not that racist (Association and newspaper made surveys... Le Pen's program etc...) and if those suburbs were not massivly hit by unemployment, this will not happen.

Beubeu

Yonge Street wrote: »

I don't hate Muslims Jaafa. As I stated in the OP, I welcome cultural integration. I presume you're not of native white Irish descent? If not, well done for learning English and for adopting our tolerance of homosexuals. But then you can't be a "true" Muslims if you don't follow the religion's teachings to hate gays.

What are you talking about? The catholic religion, like any other religion, is openly against gay, sex before marriage etc.... Should we kick them out?

I think you have a problem with Muslims and because you don't understand them you are mixing things in your head. For you Muslim = Al-Qa'ida = terrorism??

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

That refers to a bunch of xenophobes, racists and right wing extremists often associated with the BNP. The small muslim group is not what Batsy seemed to be referring to.

Not specific but,in 2008 it was in the general direction of the differences which Batsy alluded to.....

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/2279441.celebrating_muslims_parade_through_bolton_streets/


Mind you,from the Bolton News archives it seems as if some "Ordinary" Muslims find the shennanigans a bit to "Irish" for their liking too

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/archive/2008/09/26/Shuiab+Khan+%28shuiabkhan%29/3705926.Eid_revellers_can_be_a_right_royal_pain/

southsiderosie

I'm a little concerned that this thread is being used as an opportunity to attack issues other than multiculturalism. Please keep it civil, because this is not the place for racism or gay-bashing.

It also isn't the place for dismissive one-liners, so if you don't have something to add, or a specific question, then don't bother posting on this thread.

SSR

booom

K-9 wrote: »

Mod

Could you please outline exactly where that article backs up the questions asked?

Seems an opinion piece to me.

sorry for not getting back sooner- been a busy thread. I posted that video (not that I pay too much heed to the website that posted it - but that doesn't detract from the video's content) in response to the issue of streets being no-go areas. If my memory serves me correct a similar sitaution used to take place outside finsbury mosque in London. Yes, i realise a parallel could be drawn with say, an easter procession through any number of south american towns or villages, or for that matter, other hindu, jewish and yes, islamic processions, but apart from being in violation of law and with the theme of the thread (up to that point) ie; the issue of integration, multiculturalism (or as some MP - cant remember who exactly called it- multimonoculturalism), I thought it was an example of the kind of thing that should people pause for thought before launching in to the defence of (in this case) a religious or ethnic minority who either by will, by design or for other reasons fail to integrate. 'Integrate' here, as you can imagine, is a deeply contested concept.

HamletOrHecuba

Beubeu wrote: »

SO what? I know that some of them do this as an act or "rebellion" against France and "white catholic" culture but do you realy think that muslim are the biggest problem in France, Ireland or Europe?
The biggest problem that France faces in the suburbs is insecurity. Perhaps if the French were not that racist (Association and newspaper made surveys... Le Pen's program etc...) and if those suburbs were not massivly hit by unemployment, this will not happen.

Islam has a lot more in common with Traditional Christianity than hedonistic Industrial Capitalism does. People who call themselves Christians and have a lot to say against the former but nothing against the latter are impossible to take seriously.

K-9

booom wrote: »

sorry for not getting back sooner- been a busy thread. I posted that video (not that I pay too much heed to the website that posted it - but that doesn't detract from the video's content) in response to the issue of streets being no-go areas. If my memory serves me correct a similar sitaution used to take place outside finsbury mosque in London. Yes, i realise a parallel could be drawn with say, an easter procession through any number of south american towns or villages, or for that matter, other hindu, jewish and yes, islamic processions, but apart from being in violation of law and with the theme of the thread (up to that point) ie; the issue of integration, multiculturalism (or as some MP - cant remember who exactly called it- multimonoculturalism), I thought it was an example of the kind of thing that should people pause for thought before launching in to the defence of (in this case) a religious or ethnic minority who either by will, by design or for other reasons fail to integrate. 'Integrate' here, as you can imagine, is a deeply contested concept.

The post your responded to was:

Let's get started on this...

1. Which streets in Paris are no-go areas for the native whites?
2. In what way was immigrant culture valued and preserved in a country where wearing the burqa in public can put you in jail?
3. Has it occurred to you that the cause of such ghettoisation, much like the creation of ghettoes throughout history, has been as much to do with natives being unwilling to consider living next to immigrants and abandoning areas? Areas like Chinatown in most major American cities, Golders Green in London, huge swathes of Bradford in England, Astoria in Queens in New York, Hell's Kitchen in Manhattan, Harlem...the list goes on, featuring just about every ethnicity and religion imaginable.

The link points to one example which barely addresses point 1 and I didn't see any relevance to points 2 and 3.

Mod

Please take a read of the charter for the politics boards here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056544328

In particular:

This forum is not a newsdump, blog or somewhere to post copy & pastes from other sites. All OP's and posts require some input of your own.

Nodin

Yonge Street wrote: »

Yes, I do..

As an atheist, I'd find that overly harsh, and would say it would be somewhat counter-productive. Banning any kind of scarf would be ridiculous, draconian, and a flout of the values that are supposedly under threat by muslims.

Yonge Street wrote: »

The French government doesn't collect census data on citizens' religion, ethnicity, or whether they wear a burqa/hijab, so I am unable to provide an informed answer to your question. And anyone who claims they can is a liar. The stats don't exist. However, a walk around Paris would indicate that a significant number of female Muslims wear some sort of head covering.

Largely correct, which of course renders comments about North Africans "not integrating" a matter of speculation, rather than fact.

As for the Burqa - the French Government took a guess at 2,000.

"Quelque 2 000 femmes porteraient la burqa en France. "

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2009/09/09/01016-20090909ARTFIG00040-deux-mille-femmes-portent-la-burqa-en-france-.php

Its in French there, obviously, but thats the best I can do for a direct source at this hour.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Not specific but,in 2008 it was in the general direction of the differences which Batsy alluded to.....

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/2279441.celebrating_muslims_parade_through_bolton_streets/


Mind you,from the Bolton News archives it seems as if some "Ordinary" Muslims find the shennanigans a bit to "Irish" for their liking too

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/archive/2008/09/26/Shuiab+Khan+%28shuiabkhan%29/3705926.Eid_revellers_can_be_a_right_royal_pain/

If he's interested in discussing it, he can get back to me with the correct references. Personally I don't feel like playing "identify the parade" with a third party who has no more idea what hes on about than I do.

In addition, the two events you linked are not related, so I don't know what point you're trying to make there. Find reference to every muslim related event in Bolton and make out "they're taking over"? Imply it always descends into chaos?

Nodin

booom wrote: »

sorry for not getting back sooner- been a busy thread. I posted that video (not that I pay too much heed to the website that posted it - but that doesn't detract from the video's content) in response to the issue of streets being no-go areas. If my memory serves me correct a similar sitaution used to take place outside finsbury mosque in London. ..............

The mosque expelled the extremist abu hamsa. He and about 20 followers held prayers outside the grounds. I'm not seeing the comparison meself.

southsiderosie

Nodin wrote: »

As for the Burqa - the French Government took a guess at 2,000.

"Quelque 2 000 femmes porteraient la burqa en France. "

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2009/09/09/01016-20090909ARTFIG00040-deux-mille-femmes-portent-la-burqa-en-france-.php

Its in French there, obviously, but thats the best I can do for a direct source at this hour.

CHristian Joppke's book Veil notes that, during the headscarf controversy in France, there were only 1,400 known cases of girls wearing headscarves in public schools. Given that there are over 8 million Muslims in France, this is an extraordinarily small percentage. While clearly many girls end up wearing headscarves when not on school grounds, the data suggests that the battle over headscarves in schools was the very definition of a tempest in a teacup.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

If he's interested in discussing it, he can get back to me with the correct references. Personally I don't feel like playing "identify the parade" with a third party who has no more idea what hes on about than I do.

In addition, the two events you linked are not related, so I don't know what point you're trying to make there. Find reference to every muslim related event in Bolton and make out "they're taking over"? Imply it always descends into chaos?

I personally have no difficulty with Nodin's refusal to engage with Batsy on the issue of the Bolton events,however I find it a little disengenuous to dismiss Batsy's posts so resdily.

I would give some credence to Batsy's post as he states he is resident in Bolton and in a particular area mentioned in the articles (Great Lever).

It's not quite the same as suggesting that every Bolton Muslim Event descends into chaos,even though,on the reportage alone,a significant amount does.

Credit also must go to those Bolton based Muslim correspondents who provide the coverage supportive of Batsy's POV....yes/no ?

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

I (.......) POV....yes/no ?

If somebody wants to talk about an event in which "a group of several thousand Muslims " marches and juxtapose that with "a planned Royal British Legion march" than they can provide links with some reference to the actual specifics. This should not prove difficult, seeing as they supposedly know all about it, live there and the event itself allegdly having caused some controversy.

BluntGuy

Yonge Street wrote: »

Yes, I do.

On what basis do you propose to say to Mary, "you can't display that cross necklace in public anymore".

they must speak English or Irish
dress in a Western fashion
respect our laws which tolerate the equality of women, homosexuality, and the disabled
Be encouraged to get involved in the community. Playing for the local GAA club, for example

Why "or Irish"? English I can understand the argument for needing to communicate. Irish seems to have different motivations.

Dress in a western fashion? Why is this important? What if I wanted to dress up in Muslim or Sikh apparel, should I be disallowed?

Be encouraged to get involved in the community? Why is this a necessity? I dislike the GAA as an organisation, and have never had a whole lot of time for the sports either.

Act within the law is the only one I fully agree with. I don't have the time for this De Valerian idea that you can impose a culture on people. Do you not realise the intense irony in your complaints that "multiculturalism" is being forced on us, while defending essentially the same thing. You seem fine with the idea that "their" culture can be forced on us in "their" countries, as long as "our" culture can be forced on "them" in this country, which scarcely seems any different from the notion you argue against that there are "areas" in countries in which some cultures dominate and impose on other people.

The only thing you've said thus far that I agree with is that we should have a secular state, that doesn't show any undue deference to any "culture". A secular state the respects the rights of individuals equally. We of course, don't have that, and it's not down to the ~40,000 Muslims here.

Incidentally,

Personally I'm an atheist. I place faith in science over fairytales.

Fair bit of irony in that statement.

Hayte

Yonge Street wrote: »

I'm in favour of cultural integration. If immigrants come to Ireland:

• they must speak English or Irish
• dress in a Western fashion
• respect our laws which tolerate the equality of women, homosexuality, and the disabled
• Be encouraged to get involved in the community. Playing for the local GAA club, for example

What I don't like is "multiculturalism", as advocated by Tony Blair and his ilk. The legacy of this failed policy can be seen in several European cities today, where immigrants' culture was "valued" and preserved. Hence whole streets in Paris are blocked off by Muslims and are no-go areas for the native whites. The residents can't speak a word of the local language and so Arabic is the vernacular. Women saunter around in burqas and hijabs. Arranged marriages are still practiced. It's like a whole community from Pakistan was transplanted to Europe. Ghettos everywhere.

What you are describing is assimilation, not integration. The whole concept of multiculturalism is quite maligned and it does not mean what you think it means. I talked about these concepts at length in a thread called "You reap what you sow". The main points I argued are in this post.

The simplest that I can boil it down to is that all of these terms are part of multiculturalism, but some strategies that involve social segregation and the complete surrender of immigrant identity have negative corollaries. Most of this is to do with not treating acculturation as a open and ongoing dialogue. As soon as you start dictating terms and using your position of power and authority (i.e. as part of a dominant ethnic/cultural group) then its not really a dialogue anymore.

Batsy

they must speak English or Irish
dress in a Western fashion
respect our laws which tolerate the equality of women, homosexuality, and the disabled
Be encouraged to get involved in the community. Playing for the local GAA club, for example

Correct. In Rome do as the Romans do.

Batsy

The biggest problem that France faces in the suburbs is insecurity. Perhaps if the French were not that racist (Association and newspaper made surveys... Le Pen's program etc...) and if those suburbs were not massivly hit by unemployment, this will not happen.

Perhaps if French Muslims weren't breaking the law by worshipping in public, blocking streets and people's homes, and hiring private security to do all this then maybe the French would look more favourable on the Muslims.

Batsy

AlekSmart wrote: »

Not specific but,in 2008 it was in the general direction of the differences which Batsy alluded to.....

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/2279441.celebrating_muslims_parade_through_bolton_streets/


Mind you,from the Bolton News archives it seems as if some "Ordinary" Muslims find the shennanigans a bit to "Irish" for their liking too

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/archive/2008/09/26/Shuiab+Khan+%28shuiabkhan%29/3705926.Eid_revellers_can_be_a_right_royal_pain/

I like this line in the Bolton News article:
It is like most things — an excuse to cause a bit of annoyance to everyone else.

And he's right. It's the Muslims' way of saying: "Look, we're Muslims and we can do what we like. We know you aren't allowed to do your St George's Day Parades or your Royal British Legion parades but us Muslims are allowed to parade the streets of Bolton with our loud intimidating chants and causing busy roads to be closed to traffic causing inconvenience for motorists. Because we're Muslims and we can do what we like and you stinking kaffirs and go to hell. Bolton will soon belong to Islam"

Hayte

Batsy wrote: »

And he's right. It's the Muslims' way of saying: "Look, we're Muslims and we can do what we like. We know you aren't allowed to do your St George's Day Parades or your Royal British Legion parades but us Muslims are allowed to parade the streets of Bolton with our loud intimidating chants and causing busy roads to be closed to traffic causing inconvenience for motorists. Because we're Muslims and we can do what we like and you stinking kaffirs and go to hell. Bolton will soon belong to Islam"

Admit it. You just made that up didn't you?

Gregor Samsa

Yonge Street wrote: »

they must speak English or Irish

I think this is a fair requirement. I wouldn't dream of moving to another country without being able to speak at least the basics of the language, and I'd make it my business to improve as I stayed there. It's not like learning a new language replaces your old one - so one could still speak their native tongue as they wish, but with the benefit of also being able to communicate in ours. Obviously Irish is only being thrown in there because it's our official National Language, and by the Constitution, we can't insist on English only. But we're really talking about English here. Any foreigners coming here with perfect Irish and no English would be almost as marginalised and disadvantaged in day-to-day society as someone who only had Mongolian.

Yonge Street wrote: »

dress in a Western fashion

No way. How does one define "western fashion"? Will there also be restrictions on what I'm allowed to wear? I'm not prepared to give up a jot of my liberty in matters like this to force restrictions on anyone else. Let people wear what they want - how other people choose to dress doesn't affect me in any way. Just because some Muslim countries insist that western women dress in certain ways doesn't mean that we have to become so intolerant to personal liberty too.

Yonge Street wrote: »

respect our laws which tolerate the equality of women, homosexuality, and the disabled

I would expect anyone coming here to respect our laws, just as I would respect the laws anywhere else in the world. But Irish law works on that basis at the moment, so I don't really see the issue here. Note that there's a difference between respecting the law and agreeing with it.

Yonge Street wrote: »

Be encouraged to get involved in the community. Playing for the local GAA club, for example

Flip side, of course, is that the local community should be equally encouraged to accept immigrants into it. We all know that this does not always happen at present - regardless of how good their English is, how western their dress is or how law abiding they are.

Batsy

Hayte wrote: »

Admit it. You just made that up didn't you?

Nope. I'm not naive enough to thing the motives for doing this march are entirely innocent.

Black Swan

MOD COMMENT:
Please be advised that some posts are getting a bit too personal. Please focus on making meaningful contributions to the thread; i.e., play the ball, not the man or woman.