Graphic designers ruining the web?

tramoreman

not a chance designers and developers of the web should know code its a disgrace if they dont there is no excuse

came across this article very interesting

should designers know how to code html and css yes and so should developers

http://marcdrummond.com/comment/104

BarackPyjama

Some of the most talented web designers in this country don't touch code (front-end or otherwise) so the assertion is utterly, utterly, utterly wrong that you can't be a good web designer and not know code.

Whether they should know code or not is another matter. However I'd much rather work with a talented designer who doesn't know code than a hack that knows code inside-out. <- basically... not a designer. Just someone who designs badly and knows front-end code.

smash

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Some of the most talented web designers in this country don't touch code (front-end or otherwise) so the assertion is utterly, utterly, utterly wrong that you can't be a good web designer and not know code.

You can be a good designer, but you're job is redundant to most companies.

BarackPyjama wrote: »

However I'd much rather work with a talented designer who doesn't know code than a hack that knows code inside-out. <- basically... not a designer. Just someone who designs badly and knows front-end code.

These people don't usually get hired by any reputable company so I don't know why anyone would end up working with them.

BarackPyjama

smash wrote: »

These people don't usually get hired by any reputable company so I don't know why anyone would end up working with them.

Em... yeah, they do. Trust me on this one.

smash

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Em... yeah, they do. Trust me on this one.

Na, I'll go with my own experience of people we hire.

BarackPyjama

smash wrote: »

Na, I'll go with my own experience of people we hire.

Fair enough. I'll go along with the experience of some of the top agencies in Ireland and across the globe who are producing the best work.

smash

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Fair enough. I'll go along with the experience of some of the top agencies in Ireland and across the globe who are producing the best work.

So these top agencies will employ a "hack that knows code inside-out" but can't design?

BarackPyjama

smash wrote: »

So these top agencies will employ a "hack that knows code inside-out" but can't design?

No. They wouldn't. That was my point.

Singed Icarus

This is all running under the assumption that a site is designed by one person.. most web design agencies employ programmers and graphic designers.

It is possible to do both at a stretch and the reality is that there are plenty of validated html templates out there for graphic designers to use - just swap out images and colours.

Most bad websites are exercises in bad planning with no clear purpose defined in my humble opinion.

smash

BarackPyjama wrote: »

No. They wouldn't. That was my point.

We'll you said:
"However I'd much rather work with a talented designer who doesn't know code than a hack that knows code inside-out. <- basically... not a designer."

And I replied:
"These people don't usually get hired by any reputable company so I don't know why anyone would end up working with them."

And you followed with:
"Em... yeah, they do. Trust me on this one."

Giblet

From my experience, the best designers are the ones with some knowledge and awareness of what is going on, rather than someone who has no idea, just because their designs will take a few things into account than say a pure print designer would who hasn't worked on web stuff. At the end of the day, they most likely aren't going to be implementing any of their designs and especially any server side or client side scripting (where I work anyway!)

BarackPyjama

smash wrote: »

We'll you said:
"However I'd much rather work with a talented designer who doesn't know code than a hack that knows code inside-out. <- basically... not a designer."

I think we have our wires crossed.

p

I think we should all just take our small limited experience of working in a handful of companies, and extrapolate from that, that we can speak about the entire industry and generalise about every possible type of web designer, and web design company.

Trojan

p wrote: »

I think we should all just take our small limited experience of working in a handful of companies, and extrapolate from that, that we can speak about the entire industry and generalise about every possible type of web designer, and web design company.

Damn those graphic designers and their tiny fonts!

tramoreman

came across this at http://csswizardry.com/2011/09/do-designers-need-to-code/


Is a web designer really a web designer if they can’t code?

A lot of the arguments revolve around the (false) fact that ‘designers can’t understand what they’re designing if they can’t build it’. This argument suggests that a web designer who can’t code is a fake who’s just blagging their way if they don’t know/understand how to actually build the websites they design…

This is wrong. By this token I should understand MySQL and programming and Project Managers should understand design theory and programmers should be able to manage clients. There’s a reason we have different job titles; people do different jobs.

A designer who can build websites is a designer–developer, a designer who can’t write HTML/CSS is a designer.

Designers should work with developers

One reason, I think, that people believe that designers should be able to code is that they need to honour their designs, they need to be sure their designs are buildable by being the ones who have the responsibility of building them.

The problem is not that designs need to be buildable, it’s that developers should be permitted to send designs back and make compromises. Designers and developers need to collaborate, not be combined. Designers need to keep pushing the envelope, making tricky and outside-the-box visuals that push the work of the developer forward. The developer needs to be able to work back the other way, show the designer the boundaries that cannot be broken. Designers shouldn’t lead developers, developers shouldn’t lead designers, there should be a happy middle ground where teams work together, specialising in their respective areas but understanding and appreciating each others’.

A designer who codes badly is less use to a developer than a designer who can’t code at all. Developers need designers, not bug making machines.

But the client was shown a PSD that needs to be honoured…

I think this may well be one reason why people believe designers should code; the situation where the client has seen a PSD and thus expectations are set. A developer hasn’t seen the visuals and is all of a sudden expected to build something he’s had no input in. For the most part this may not be the case at all, but it definitely could be…

The remedy here might be to make sure designers only create things that they can build, achieving this by making sure designers can code.

This is fixing the wrong problem, the problem here is a lack of communication and a lack of collaboration, not a lack of skills. Designers and developers should work together from the outset, working in the browser to ensure that a) the team is working as, well, a team and b) that a client is never shown a PSD (showing a client a PSD in 2011 is just foolish).

The recurring theme is collaboration… Designers and developers need to coexist, not be one and the same.

HTML and CSS isn’t easy…

…but it is easy to do badly. I know loads of designers who can make the most stunning visuals but their code is not a strong point. Sure, they can write HTML and CSS, but it’s not where they specialise or excel, in much the same way a lot of developers have no design sense.

A designer who writes bad code is less use than a designer who can’t code at all. Once a designer writes poor code then either a) a decent dev has to come along and spend time bug fixing, or b) poor code becomes a tangled mess off spaghetti CSS and browser hacks.

Do not undervalue the importance of HTML and CSS, they are easy to do badly, but hard to do excellently. You need excellence in both design and development, so leave each role to its respective person.

These rules introduce restrictions

If a designer needs to code what he’s designed then he’ll design to what he can do, not to what can be done. This is a fundamental mistake to introduce.

A designer who isn’t restricted by a secondary skill set will produce things outside the box, push the envelope and keep innovating. A designer who is limited by their dev knowledge is hemmed in, scared of pushing the boundaries for fear of creating themselves work they cannot complete.

By forcing one thing you are restricting another, this is not a good thing to bring into your team. What you need to do is keep the contact and collaboration (there it is again) between design and build to ensure that everyone is achieving their full potential.

Cork24

i think Web Designers go all out on images and fancy drawings.. and Flash :mad::mad:... what is the point in having a web site build in Flash.

Web Designers dont really know how the Client-Side & the Server-Side work.. .PNG helps alot.. i saw one site before that a Lecture showed us before that used their images in RAW:eek::eek:

jmcc

Cork24 wrote: »

i think Web Designers go all out on images and fancy drawings.. and Flash :mad::mad:... what is the point in having a web site build in Flash.

Interactivity. There are some things for which Flash is better than simple HTML/CSS.

Web Designers dont really know how the Client-Side & the Server-Side work.. .PNG helps alot.. i saw one site before that a Lecture showed us before that used their images in RAW:eek::eek:

I tend to be somewhat cynical when it comes to lecturers. This is based on the fact that web design is actually still a developing discipline. Lecturers are often way behind the leading edge of technologies and there's a perception, sometimes justified but other times not, that they are lecturing because they can't hack it in the real world. The web is far more complex than many people think. Some sites are masterpieces of design but completely fail to convey information. Some look completely amateurish but work better because they convey information simply and effectively. However to write off all Web Designers like you just did is quite wrong.

Regards...jmcc

Cianos

tramoreman wrote: »

This is fixing the wrong problem, the problem here is a lack of communication and a lack of collaboration, not a lack of skills. Designers and developers should work together from the outset, working in the browser to ensure that a) the team is working as, well, a team and b) that a client is never shown a PSD (showing a client a PSD in 2011 is just foolish).

OT, but how else would one ensure that the clients expectations are being met, and that they aren't going to come back with big change requests that require almost starting from scratch?

Isn't it easier to nail the design at the concept stage and build from there, rather than later on when more work has been done?

Cianos

I'm a designer that doesn't touch code. This is for a few reasons;

1. I have a background in art, and feel that that is where my strengths are. I would rather focus and build upon my strengths to offer a higher standard in design, than try and be a jack of all trades.
2. By the time I catch up to an acceptable coding standard, my knowledge will be out of date.
3. Coding doesn't excite me, and I want to work at something that I enjoy for the obviously selfish reasons, which in turn keeps the quality of work higher.

I appreciate the need to be mindful of the development work that will come afterwards, and so far most of my sites have actually been conventional in terms of structure.

I don't think anyone except the designer benefits when design is used for the sake of design. Sure it'd be fun to try a lot of crazy different concepts etc, but it's better all round to keep things simple.

tramoreman

The remedy here might be to make sure designers only create things that they can build, achieving this by making sure designers can code.

This is fixing the wrong problem, the problem here is a lack of communication and a lack of collaboration, not a lack of skills. Designers and developers should work together from the outset, working in the browser to ensure that a) the team is working as, well, a team and b) that a client is never shown a PSD (showing a client a PSD in 2011 is just foolish).


totally agree with you my own view is that sketches should be drawn first and shown to the client first. the design shouldent begin until the clients give the go ahead.

all web designers should know at least html and css i have read a few articles from around the world and there is a view out there that they should know html, css and javascript at least.

web designers should use what software they are comfortable with.

coding or not coding comes down to the main fact how fast does the client want the design.

smash

tramoreman wrote: »

The remedy here might be to make sure designers only create things that they can build, achieving this by making sure designers can code.

To be honest, I thought it's how all web agencies work these days. That's what my company do and we would never hire a designer that can't build what they design. I never see a job spec looking for a web designer that can't code either.

Cianos

smash wrote: »

To be honest, I thought it's how all web agencies work these days. That's what my company do and we would never hire a designer that can't build what they design. I never see a job spec looking for a web designer that can't code either.

Out of interest, would you prefer a designer that could produce brilliant, cutting edge (and still commercial) stuff but had no idea when it came to coding, or someone who produced fairly middle of the road stuff but could also build everything they designed?

I guess it's down to each company's own structure and practices. I can see how both people above would be a hindrance to some and an asset to others.

smash

Cianos wrote: »

Out of interest, would you prefer a designer that could produce brilliant, cutting edge (and still commercial) stuff but had no idea when it came to coding, or someone who produced fairly middle of the road stuff but could also build everything they designed?

We wouldn't hire a middleweight designer though. We have 3 very good designers at present and they all code.

BarackPyjama

I don't think I've ever seen what I would consider to be professional design and front-end code from any person I've worked with in Ireland over the last 15 years. Certainly very nice, functional design and good code but never exceptional creative skill and beautiful, clean and semantic code from the same person. Code is a developer's job IMO.

BarackPyjama

I should probably qualify my last post with - the majority of designers think they're good. The majority of them aren't. There's a major "talent delusion" in web design that can't be overstated.

tramoreman

totally agree there is only a few at the moment but there are people that are coming through that are quite good there is not one person from ireland in the top 200 i saw the list a few months ago

desaparecidos

tramoreman wrote: »

totally agree there is only a few at the moment but there are people that are coming through that are quite good there is not one person from ireland in the top 200 i saw the list a few months ago

Top 200 compiled by who? Visual design is very subjective.

BarackPyjama

desaparecidos wrote: »

Top 200 compiled by who? Visual design is very subjective.

There's good design and bad design but yeah, once you get to a certain standard, it can be subjective. I wouldn't look at these 'top 200' tables either. Absolute rubbish.

p

smash wrote: »

To be honest, I thought it's how all web agencies work these days. That's what my company do and we would never hire a designer that can't build what they design. I never see a job spec looking for a web designer that can't code either.

And therefore, you continue to think that's the only way it could possibly be in the entire world.
How boring.

BarackPyjama

p wrote: »

And therefore, you continue to think that's the only way it could possibly be in the entire world.
How boring.

Yeah. Pretty much the same reason that the vast majority of web agencies produce crap.