Paypal go to Dundalk

Psychedelic

Sully wrote: »

Why would the government offer a deal just because Waterford is complaining? The government wants to secure jobs. They couldn't give a ****e where they were once they stayed in Ireland. These businesses probably already get incentives to locate here, but I don't expect the government to say "We will do X, Y and Z if you locate in Waterford". If a company believes Waterford has potential, they will investigate it and see if it meets their requirements. We don't, end of story.

Waterford was never in the picture and I would imagine PayPal & other similar companies wanted to locate near Dublin which caters for everything rather down in Waterford which doesn't.

I thought the point of Richard Bruton's South East Employment Action Plan was to make Waterford and the South East a priority for investment? Someone from the IDA was down here recently stating (direct quote here) that Waterford was their top priority for 2012.

If PayPal simply didn't want to locate here, or Waterford didn't have enough facilities or whatever, then fair enough. But these regular announcements of big investments for other towns and cities and nothing for Waterford. This not about Waterford complaining, we're genuinely in need of a big investment like this. The Government could/should offer extra incentives for locating in Waterford or the South East.

Psychedelic

The other thing is, we already have major companies like Genzyme, Teva and Bausch & Lomb here already, so they obviously have no problems with our broadband, infrastructure, international airport connectivity etc so if they have no problems being in Waterford then surely the excuses given for other companies not locating here don't hold too much water?

fricatus

From the Indo today:

Irish Independent wrote:

Ms Phelan carried out a thorough analysis of the linguistic abilities of potential candidates for the jobs based in the north-east region from Dublin to the North.

"I did a very in-depth analysis on the language opportunities that are in Dundalk. That was the most important thing in terms of clinching the investment," she added.

While some recruitment may be needed abroad, she found that speakers of the majority of languages the company needed -- including French, German, Spanish and Dutch -- could be found in this region.

There are large buildings of 100,000sq ft lying empty in Dundalk, which can be used straight away, meaning the operation will be up and running from July.

And the fact the new centre will be located just an hour's drive from the US company's base in Blanchardstown in Dublin helped seal the deal.

She mentions language skills, but I'm sure I won't insult the good people of Dundalk when I make the assumption that they're not necessarily any better or worse at languages than people in Waterford, or indeed Limerick, which was in competition with Dundalk for the investment.

I'd say a bigger factor was the large buildings (the old Dell plant being empty was why Limerick was also considered), and from the report above, the proximity to Dublin was a major consideration.

This is worrying; whereas heretofore we in Waterford were being told "you need to improve access to Dublin" in order to get FDI, the new motorways have now meant that locations like Dundalk and Kilkenny are almost commutable from Dublin, and now the goalposts are shifted. We can't move Waterford any closer to Dublin, so if that's an advantage in such matters, then we're at a permanent loss.

Good luck to Dundalk by the way. It's really nice and heartening to see investment going to an area that has been genuinely economically disadvantaged for many years. Too often we see IDA companies crowding into Dublin, Cork and (inexplicably) Galway - all three of which places are doing comparatively well. It will be a big shot in the arm for Dundalk and I wish them well. I just hope the IDA are putting in a similarly big effort for the two cities that have suffered the most from job losses in the past 5 years - Limerick and Waterford.

robtri

fricatus wrote: »

From the Indo today:



She mentions language skills, but I'm sure I won't insult the good people of Dundalk when I make the assumption that they're not necessarily any better or worse at languages than people in Waterford, or indeed Limerick, which was in competition with Dundalk for the investment.

I'd say a bigger factor was the large buildings (the old Dell plant being empty was why Limerick was also considered), and from the report above, the proximity to Dublin was a major consideration.

This is worrying; whereas heretofore we in Waterford were being told "you need to improve access to Dublin" in order to get FDI, the new motorways have now meant that locations like Dundalk and Kilkenny are almost commutable from Dublin, and now the goalposts are shifted. We can't move Waterford any closer to Dublin, so if that's an advantage in such matters, then we're at a permanent loss.

Good luck to Dundalk by the way. It's really nice and heartening to see investment going to an area that has been genuinely economically disadvantaged for many years. Too often we see IDA companies crowding into Dublin, Cork and (inexplicably) Galway - all three of which places are doing comparatively well. It will be a big shot in the arm for Dundalk and I wish them well. I just hope the IDA are putting in a similarly big effort for the two cities that have suffered the most from job losses in the past 5 years - Limerick and Waterford.

just from a paypal point of view... where would they propose they actually go in waterford... there is nothing available.... it would all ahve to be built from scratch for them.

there is no where in Waterford for PayPal...

Cabaal

robtri wrote: »

just from a paypal point of view... where would they propose they actually go in waterford... there is nothing available.... it would all ahve to be built from scratch for them.

there is no where in Waterford for PayPal...

They'd have to do alot of work to have a place big enough, and before anyone goes and suggests TalkTalk...its not big enough at all.

merlante

Sully wrote: »

The only thing the government can do is create facilities here that we don't have, if a company says no to Waterford. For example, a major airport. Decent broadband. Better office / retail / industrial units actually ready to be fitted out.

We need to establish why there is no interest, would investment by the state to address these problems pay off (like would building an expensive airport actually make sense? Would people really use it? Would it be as busy so it pays back? etc), does the state have the finances to direct at this, is Waterford an area that is capable of offering such services even if fitted out (skillset, other location factors, etc).

Arguments were put forward for the motorway that it would improve jobs and more would locate here because of the better road network. Likewise, the skillset apparently will be introduced by giving WIT a University title. The motorway theory failed to-date, but I guess you will argue that other factors need addressing before they will all link up and be of benefit.

Can, if all these problems we mention be addressed, perform strongly compared to the likes of Dublin and Dundalk?

You are missing the points that I and others have been making:
1. Nobody is talking about forcing companies to do anything, but to incentivise certain locations where appropriate -- which does happen.
2. Sometimes distance to airports or quality of infrastructure have very little to do with decisions.

Take a trip to the IDA website. Note the companies in locations that, by any conceivable measure, are more remote, less developed, smaller, etc. than Waterford. Abbott are massive in Sligo and Mayo, for example, as has been mentioned.

Note also, that when companies decide where to locate, the reason they *never* give is, "we were given a great package to locate here," they will say something like, "good workforce, great scenery, airports within 2 hrs, etc."

I don't expect that many FDI companies have all that much knowledge of the demographics of this country. Aside from Dublin, and high tech clusters in Cork and Galway, it's all much of a muchness, really. Every town is more or less the same, that's the reality. Companies will have special requirements in each case, but if they're coming to Ireland for the tax breaks, they don't necessarily care. If they think the government and council will move mountains for them, them will likely be tempted to go to one location over another. The question we have to ask is, in the finite amount of time that the IDA and the government have to pitch locations to a company, how much of it is dedicated to Waterford, and in what terms is Waterford mentioned? There is evidence to suggest that Waterford is not high on the IDAs list. This is a valid concern and something the government can address, if true.

The infrastructure in Waterford is very good anyway. The country is almost a city state at this stage, the main cities are so well connected -- to Dublin at least.

(Also, if you think that a WIT upgrade is "giving WIT a University title," despite all of the discussion you've been moderating, then I give up.)

fuzzy dunlop

Two places I can think of that could possibly be converted.Ferrybank SC instead of putting it on life support with a Kilkeeny Co. Co. Library a piece of chicanary that would make FF blush.Or a conversion of the original R&H Hall building which is essentially a high rise building.Industrial heritage like this has been converted into modern office space all over the world and believe it or not is actually historically important.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/317272_215284141863901_100001469507462_624686_6444413_n.jpg

mike65

You are joking of course.

jayboi

mike65 wrote: »

You are joking of course.

Il handle this!

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Two places I can think of that could possibly be converted.Ferrybank SC instead of putting it on life support with a Kilkeeny Co. Co. Library a piece of chicanary that would make FF blush.Or a conversion of the original R&H Hall building which is essentially a high rise building.Industrial heritage like this has been converted into modern office space all over the world and believe it or not is actually historically important.

Young man are you high?

fuzzy dunlop

mike65 wrote: »

You are joking of course.

Why do you say so?

fuzzy dunlop

jayboi wrote: »

Il handle this!



Young man are you high?

No and whereas glib comments such as yours are a dime a dozen if you actually did a small bit of research you find that what I am suggesting is not only possinle but is in fact desirable with examples all over the world.

gernon

fricatus wrote: »

There was an interview with Louise Phelan on the RTE 9 O'Clock News just now. According to the caption on the TV, she's Vice President of PayPal EMEA (and yes I know that a company can have lots of VPs so she's not necessarily PayPal's no 2 in Europe). However she had a pronounced north-eastern accent. What's the betting she's from Dundalk and had a big part in the decision.

http://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/local/donaghmore_woman_leads_paypal_jobs_boost_1_3545135

Sorry to shatter the conspiracy lads but she's from Laois probably closer to ye than you thought.;)

jayboi

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

No and whereas glib comments such as yours are a dime a dozen if you actually did a small bit of research you find that what I am suggesting is not only possinle but is in fact desirable with examples all over the world.

Have you seen the R and H hall building lately the cost of making it safe livable in the 21st century would be astronomical, for the consultancy fees alone you could probably build a unit for a thousand people on the outskirts of town.

BlaasForRafa

robtri wrote: »

very true....

best we could offer is the old talk talk place.... a 1970's converted factory ....

Which worked very well. Its a complete fallacy that you need some super building to host a call centre.

BlaasForRafa

fricatus wrote: »

From the Indo today:



She mentions language skills, but I'm sure I won't insult the good people of Dundalk when I make the assumption that they're not necessarily any better or worse at languages than people in Waterford, or indeed Limerick, which was in competition with Dundalk for the investment.

I'd say the language skills reason is rubbish tbh. The level of 2nd and 3rd language skills all over Ireland is bad, Bioware in Galway have a lot of foreign language jobs....and most of them are being done by foreigners recruited from all over Europe.

mike65

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Which worked very well. Its a complete fallacy that you need some super building to host a call centre.

Could you get 1000 in there and the infrastructure that supports 1000 people?

fuzzy dunlop

jayboi wrote: »

Have you seen the R and H hall building lately the cost of making it safe livable in the 21st century would be astronomical, for the consultancy fees alone you could probably build a unit for a thousand people on the outskirts of town.

I very much doubt it. The structure is reinforced concrete one of the first examples in Europe. A similar building from scratch would cost in excess of 100 million. But that is neither here nor there the fact that you were so quick to poo poo the idea when you obviously have no idea what it would cost or to the buildings actual potential.It took me only three minutes to find three well known examples.

The Guinness Storehouse
The Phillips Light Tower
The Tate Modern

closer to home

The Granary

The Phillips Light Tower is a good example as at one stage it looked very much like RH Hall structure.

fuzzy dunlop

mike65 wrote: »

Could you get 1000 in there and the infrastructure that supports 1000 people?

Over five years absolutely.There is 13 acres of free space there also. The building itself must be equal to 100000 sq ft.

BlaasForRafa

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Over five years absolutely.There is 13 acres of free space there also. The building itself must be equal to 100000 sq ft.

Indeed, AOL employed 800+ for quite a while and the building wasn't at capacity by any means.

fuzzy dunlop

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Indeed, AOL employed 800+ for quite a while and the building wasn't at capacity by any means.

Indeed also consider the Granary is been converted by WIT from a museum to in school in no time.

dashboard_hula

mike65 wrote: »

Could you get 1000 in there and the infrastructure that supports 1000 people?

That's 1000 desk, chairs, computers and phones. Then the cabling required to hook each workstation to a hub. Then a server room (TalkTalk had conservatively, about 4 miles of cabling under those chipboard floors). Then toilet facilities for 1000 people (about 20 ladies, gents and wheelchair access jacks. Each). Then filing cabinets able to deal with 1000 persons worth of payroll, personal and performance data (some things just can't be emailed). Then a canteen facility. Then separate areas for support staff with sensitive work (Payroll, HR, Management etc). Smoking Area. Conference rooms. Training Rooms. Reception areas. And that's even before you get into the legally mandated amount of space that each person is required to have to work in without impregnating their neighbour.

fuzzy dunlop

dashboard_hula wrote: »

That's 1000 desk, chairs, computers and phones. Then the cabling required to hook each workstation to a hub. Then a server room (TalkTalk had conservatively, about 4 miles of cabling under those chipboard floors). Then toilet facilities for 1000 people (about 20 ladies, gents and wheelchair access jacks. Each). Then filing cabinets able to deal with 1000 persons worth of payroll, personal and performance data (some things just can't be emailed). Then a canteen facility. Then separate areas for support staff with sensitive work (Payroll, HR, Management etc). Smoking Area. Conference rooms. Training Rooms. Reception areas. And that's even before you get into the legally mandated amount of space that each person is required to have to work in without impregnating their neighbour.

Well if talk talk can can accomodate 800 a rejuvenated Granary on the North Quays could accomodate at least 1000 comfortably aprrox 100 on each floor much of which wou;d be open plan anyway.

mikemac1

Different shifts, there would never be 1000 on site at the same time

dashboard_hula

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Well if talk talk can can accomodate 800 a rejuvenated Granary on the North Quays could accomodate at least 1000 comfortably aprrox 100 on each floor much of which wou;d be open plan anyway.

TT didn't accomodate 800 without some areas literally in each others laps. It wasn't the greatest of layouts tbh, and neither was the building itself in such great shape, if you count the number of bins strategically placed to catch drips in the ceiling on a rainy day. Or the great idea of the glass ceilings, which somehow managed to suck heat out in winter and turn the place into an oven in the summer.

The size or cost of the building itself isn't as much of an issue as the extent and cost of the renovations required to make it contact-centre ready. And there are no buildings in the Waterford City area (much as it pisses me off to say this) that are ready or will be in less than 2 years, even if funds were fired at it in the morning.

It's a ****ing shame tbh, because Waterford was, is and could be incredibly good at contact centres (and they do create secondary jobs - Campbell Catering was just as upset when the place closed down as TT staff - and the security company, and Rapid Cabs once they lost a steady source of daily spins out to the estate).

fuzzy dunlop

mikemac1 wrote: »

Different shifts, there would never be 1000 on site at the same time

Exactly I worked in an office area of 100 Engineers which fit comfortably in an area one third of the footprint of this building. But the point is really is that withe a small bit of imagination a sutable site could be found.

fuzzy dunlop

dashboard_hula wrote: »

TT didn't accomodate 800 without some areas literally in each others laps. It wasn't the greatest of layouts tbh, and neither was the building itself in such great shape, if you count the number of bins strategically placed to catch drips in the ceiling on a rainy day. Or the great idea of the glass ceilings, which somehow managed to suck heat out in winter and turn the place into an oven in the summer.

The size or cost of the building itself isn't as much of an issue as the extent and cost of the renovations required to make it contact-centre ready. And there are no buildings in the Waterford City area (much as it pisses me off to say this) that are ready or will be in less than 2 years, even if funds were fired at it in the morning.

It's a ****ing shame tbh, because Waterford was, is and could be incredibly good at contact centres (and they do create secondary jobs - Campbell Catering was just as upset when the place closed down as TT staff - and the security company, and Rapid Cabs once they lost a steady source of daily spins out to the estate).

You would be surprised how many of the most modern office and state of the art Industrial are prone to these issues.Much of Intel is accomodated in glorified prefabs. Whereas buildings of the period I am talking about were essentially over engineered because of less sophisticated modelling of the period.However the point is again that I don't buy the arguement that Waterford hasn;t got the office space.Look how quickly the ESB was converted to acccomodate Waterford Glass. Speaking of which the show rooms would at rudimentary glance provide the same space as the Blanchardstown site pay pal is in.

robtri

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Which worked very well. Its a complete fallacy that you need some super building to host a call centre.

very true...

but if you are thinking about moving your business to ireland, and one location has a 1970 converted factory, single skined asbetoes roof, no insulation, huge heating pipes running accross the floor, a rof that leaks in parts, a heating system that is designed for a very specfic desk layout..... with parking arrangments all over the place.
or
a nice third generation office block, good energy efficieny, nice asthetics, a working HVAC system that is modern and up to date.


which would you choose....

the talk talk building is not an option for most multi national companies...

robtri

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Well if talk talk can can accomodate 800 a rejuvenated Granary on the North Quays could accomodate at least 1000 comfortably aprrox 100 on each floor much of which wou;d be open plan anyway.

talk talk accomodated 800 at its peak in overlapping shifts and desks so small it was like a battery hen farm

fricatus

robtri wrote: »

just from a paypal point of view... where would they propose they actually go in waterford... there is nothing available.... it would all ahve to be built from scratch for them.

there is no where in Waterford for PayPal...

Maybe we need to return to the concept of an "advance factory". Anyone remember those, or am I showing my age here?

Incidentally, what is the building in Dundalk where PayPal are going? Is it one of the old Xerox buildings? Are Xerox still there, or did they cut back? I seem to remember job losses there.

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Or a conversion of the original R&H Hall building which is essentially a high rise building.Industrial heritage like this has been converted into modern office space all over the world and believe it or not is actually historically important.[/URL]

Everyone is pooh-poohing your suggestion, but I think it's a good one. You have an old industrial building with loads of floor space inside. It would be ideal as a project if someone were to kit it out with a modern interior. You could have multiple companies working from within it. Seems to me like a great idea for someone with a bit of vision (and a few bob...)

merlante

There are two obvious points that nobody seems to be making:

1. In order for a large office to be there in the first place, somebody has to build it. If not the company moving in, to their own specifications, then a large company that has just left (ouch).

2. What is wrong with taking a decent sized building and extending it over the years. Waterford has no shortage of buildings, say, half of the size required, with room for extension. Also, PayPal is an internet company, by definition it could be anywhere. Would it be such a disaster if two buildings, side by side, were to be used instead of one large building?

Most companies are willing to actually build their offices though, especially if they are doing something with an industrial element, which may be easier to build from scratch. I can only imagine the whinging (think Railway sq.) from people were a large office building to be built from scratch with no tenant in mind. There would be no end of 'white elephant' complaints. The national media would more than likely be called in by certain 'concerned' locals and it would be become an example of "everything that is wrong with this country" (tm), etc.