Defense against knives.

Daniel S

Hi,
I'm pretty much new to MA as I did TKD when I was about 8 or 9 for a few weeks, that's about it. I was out with friends in Limerick recently when 3 lads started on us for no reason, other than they we're pretty drunk. One of us ended up getting a black eye off the lad who stood behind the other two. Thing is, we didn't want to do anything, apart from try to leave, as a lad had a knife. At this point we were shítting bricks tbh. We just legged it for a taxi after a few minutes.

I've always had an interest in martial arts, but never wanted to do competitions which most clubs I've heard about want to do. Is there any form of Martial Arts that focus' purely on self-defence and is pretty brutal in the way it does it? Is there a form of MA that deals with knife attacks?

I can't stop thinking about if he actually decided to start thrusting the knife about.

As for my fitness, it's about average for my age (18). I cycle, surf, kayak and run regularly. 6' tall but not particularly strong. Would like to change that.

cambridge

Daniel S wrote: »

Hi,
I'm pretty much new to MA as I did TKD when I was about 8 or 9 for a few weeks, that's about it. I was out with friends in Limerick recently when 3 lads started on us for no reason, other than they we're pretty drunk. One of us ended up getting a black eye off the lad who stood behind the other two. Thing is, we didn't want to do anything, apart from try to leave, as a lad had a knife. At this point we were shítting bricks tbh. We just legged it for a taxi after a few minutes.

You do the completely correct thing. Never try and fight someone with a knife, even if you have a gun in your back pocket. Never try and fight against a crowd. Always run, always run like the wind if you get attacked, especially by lads with weapons.

I've always had an interest in martial arts, but never wanted to do competitions which most clubs I've heard about want to do. Is there any form of Martial Arts that focus' purely on self-defence and is pretty brutal in the way it does it? Is there a form of MA that deals with knife attacks?

Any martial art that prepares you for knife attacks is deeply flawed. You cannot win, anything that suppresses you instinct to flee will get you killed. It doesn't matter if they train with blunt edges, electric shock knifes, or markers, it's nothing like the real thing.

I can't stop thinking about if he actually decided to start thrusting the knife about.

It's perfectly normal to feel anxious and stressed about this kind of assault. You should try talking to some people about it.

As for my fitness, it's about average for my age (18). I cycle, surf, kayak and run regularly. 6' tall but not particularly strong. Would like to change that

sound like you have great training for 'get the **** out of there' maybe include some sprint training.

If you allow me just to hypothesise a bit, it sounds like you were in a confrontation. and you were wtih your mates, and there was a bit of shoving and pushing and then someone whipped out a knife. i am not trying to make you sound like you were in the wrong or it's your fault, but good self-defence training would tell you that you shouldn't let it go that that far. if you want to fight people on the street be prepared for some scumbag stabbing you and killing you. Don't get into fights. Don't look for martial arts tricks to beat up scumbags.

Having said all that, there is a Krav maga club in UL that do some of this self-defence stuff and you sound like you'd love it.

Daniel S

cambridge wrote: »

You do the completely correct thing. Never try and fight someone with a knife, even if you have a gun in your back pocket. Never try and fight against a crowd. Always run, always run like the wind if you get attacked, especially by lads with weapons.



Any martial art that prepares you for knife attacks is deeply flawed. You cannot win, anything that suppresses you instinct to flee will get you killed. It doesn't matter if they train with blunt edges, electric shock knifes, or markers, it's nothing like the real thing.



It's perfectly normal to feel anxious and stressed about this kind of assault. You should try talking to some people about it.



sound like you have great training for 'get the **** out of there' maybe include some sprint training.

If you allow me just to hypothesise a bit, it sounds like you were in a confrontation. and you were wtih your mates, and there was a bit of shoving and pushing and then someone whipped out a knife. i am not trying to make you sound like you were in the wrong or it's your fault, but good self-defence training would tell you that you shouldn't let it go that that far. if you want to fight people on the street be prepared for some scumbag stabbing you and killing you. Don't get into fights. Don't look for martial arts tricks to beat up scumbags.

Having said all that, there is a Krav maga club in UL that do some of this self-defence stuff and you sound like you'd love it.

IT'S YOU AGAIN!

Well, there was 5 of us and three of them. He had a knife so it's just not worth any of us getting injuries for no reason.

There was no pushing and shoving, he just had the knife in his hand the whole time. We tried to calm them down (they were looking for a fight just for the sake of it) and a lad got a box.

Zen65

Daniel S wrote: »

Is there a form of MA that deals with knife attacks?

A highly skilled martial artist knows exactly what to do when faced with a knife: he runs!

Unless there is absolutely no option, you should never try to fight somebody who is armed with a knife.

Training in a MA gives you the resilience to help deal with violence both physically and psychologically, but only if you've trained hard & regularly for many years. MA training should not make you stupid, so trying to "take on" an assailant with a knife is a terrible idea, and even more so when there's no reason to fight.

Any instructor who tells you "this is what you do in a knife fight" may be a person of poor judgement so be slow to heed the advice, unless of course the advice is prefaced by saying "absolutely never try to fight somebody with a knife, but if you have no options here's some of the things to avoid doing...."

Having said all that, any good MA club will help you build some strength, and more importantly help you to utilise what you have to the best effect.

Be at peace,

Z

crki76

I had the same problem when i came here, to Ireland( Limerick). I had no problems with stand up and with the ground but i was worry about the knife. As fast as i could save some extra money i went to study knife and stick fighting to autralia ( sydney - floro fighting systems) and later on to Philippines ( Manila). My good advice is : if you have a money travel around of world and study from professional not from charlatans.

Daniel S

Okay, I thought we were right in just legging it. But what if someone catches you off gaurd? I'm sure scumbags who are going to rob a lad are more likely to attack him, then take his money/goods rather than threating him if he doesn't hand the stuff over.

What should I do then if I'm in that situtation (if I can't run for whatever reason)? Hand it over if he has a knife?

Krav Maga deals with disarming doesn't it? Pretty sure I saw a documentary on the Israeli army using it. Hope I'm not mixing Krav Maga up with something else.

crki76

buy a knife too. EDC knife i mean.It is not legal here, i know

themandan6611

you could have tried the old "thats not a knife, this is a knife" line, but you really can't be carrying a machete

run my friend, run like the wind is the answer

Daniel S

crki76 wrote: »

buy a knife too. EDC knife i mean.It is not legal here, i know

I won't lie, I do carry a knife (Victorinox Soldier, old model, or sometimes a Victorinox Huntsman) 99% of the time. But I'd never ever use it in a fight. Don't bring it out at night either.

I have a CRKT Hammond Cruiser too, but that never leaves the house apart from cycling and trips up to the Burren.

crki76

my EDCs:
Enlan 02
Spyderco Paramilitary 2
Enlan 01
Navy k-632


backup's knives:
swiss knife
leatherman

I am not trouble maker, i just want to survive.

I dont count CRKT M16 and Gerber( i forgot model).
I am speaking about tactical folding knives.

Daniel S

crki76 wrote: »

my EDCs:
Enlan 02
Spyderco Paramilitary 2
Enlan 01
Navy k-632


backup's knives:
swiss knife
leatherman

I am not trouble maker, i just want to survive.

:eek::eek::eek:

Gardaí won't look favourably on a full on locking knife. I'd stick with the Victorinox/Wenger/Leatherman's as they're pretty lenient from my experiences. I also know a Garda (rather not say who) and he said he wouldn't make a fuss over a small knife. He did admit that it depends on the person though. No abuse, no problem.

crki76

practically you can buy a tactical pen or any metal pen what is great weapon. Or you can carry a screwdriver what is not against the law here( actually it is- depends on garda officer )

crki76

i used to be a police officer in my country i used the same rule as your friend.

Daniel S

crki76 wrote: »

practically you can buy a tactical pen or any metal pen what is great weapon. Or you can carry a screwdriver what is not against the law here( actually it is- depends on garda officer )

Screwdrivers are definitely, 100% against the law.

But, back on topic. Are there any MA's that deal with disarming?

crki76

Daniel S wrote: »

But, back on topic. Are there any MA's that deal with disarming?

check out any Filipino or Malaysian weapon systems. = traditional systems. Then you can check out some modern systems primary developed for army.
My personal experience says in P.I. is still question of dead or life if you are able to protect yourself in street. Part such as Tondo in Manila is 100 x worse then Moyross.

fg10291

Hi Daniel S.

Legging it was the correct action to take. I know what its like to be on the receiving end and afterwards I couldn't stop thinking about it for weeks. In my case I got ataacked while walking on a canal on a Saturday afternoon. I was confronted by 5 teens one of which pulled a knife asked me for my wallet and the went straight for me. Unfortunately I was backed into a corner and had nowhere to run to so did the only thing I could do fight back. the guy who swung the knife was very clumsy and made a half hearted effort which allowed me to get control of his knife arm and knock him off balance I then went for the guy standing directly in front of me but he actually moved away from me giving me an oppurtunity to run which I did. like you I had done some kung fu as a kid and not much else. Since then have done some kickboxing and krav maga in dublin. I know some people on boards are anti krav maga but the course I did was very much self defence oriented, i,e when to spot trouble brewing and head it off at the pass. I thnk this might be a good place to start

crki76

Daniel S wrote: »

Screwdrivers are definitely, 100% against the law.

easier to explain that you are going to fix something with your SD than you are just passing with your CRKT Hissatsu behind your belt.

Daniel S

fg10291 wrote: »

Hi Daniel S.

Legging it was the correct action to take. I know what its like to be on the receiving end and afterwards I couldn't stop thinking about it for weeks. In my case I got ataacked while walking on a canal on a Saturday afternoon. I was confronted by 5 teens one of which pulled a knife asked me for my wallet and the went straight for me. Unfortunately I was backed into a corner and had nowhere to run to so did the only thing I could do fight back. the guy who swung the knife was very clumsy and made a half hearted effort which allowed me to get control of his knife arm and knock him off balance I then went for the guy standing directly in front of me but he actually moved away from me giving me an oppurtunity to run which I did. like you I had done some kung fu as a kid and not much else. Since then have done some kickboxing and krav maga in dublin. I know some people on boards are anti krav maga but the course I did was very much self defence oriented, i,e when to spot trouble brewing and head it off at the pass. I thnk this might be a good place to start

A friend just suggested I go to TaeKwanDo with her. Suits my timetable very well too.

Still looking at Krav Maga, but the training times couldn't be worse

Daniel S

crki76 wrote: »

easier to explain that you are going to fix something with your SD than you are just passing with your CRKT Hissatsu behind your belt.

Toolbox, maybe. One screwdriver? I think they'd smell the bullshíte excuses a mile away. And I can't think of any reason someone would need a CRKT or any other 3" folder. Swiss Army Knives should more than suffice.

Daniel S

Daniel S wrote: »

Okay, I thought we were right in just legging it. But what if someone catches you off gaurd? I'm sure scumbags who are going to rob a lad are more likely to attack him, then take his money/goods rather than threating him if he doesn't hand the stuff over.

What should I do then if I'm in that situtation (if I can't run for whatever reason)? Hand it over if he has a knife?

Krav Maga deals with disarming doesn't it? Pretty sure I saw a documentary on the Israeli army using it. Hope I'm not mixing Krav Maga up with something else.

Most definitely hand over the money and goods without even thinking about it if the chap has a knife.

If the chap seems to be attacking you with the knife rather than robbing you and you can't run than all you can do is put as much distance between him and you, do remember a knife is a weapon, but it must be used for you to be harmed, so it has to be wielded, I'd sooner block/attempt to block than be sliced or stabbed. Having your stance correct and your balance would be an advantage over a scummer with a knife, the odds are stacked against you but if you can't run and he seems intent on using it you do have a chance, albeit a slight one.

I did a small amount of kickboxing years back and years later did a two day Krav Maga course, at the end of the course we were all "attacked" by 6 to 8 other folks from the course, many of them were practising KM for quite a while, when attacked I was the only one who kicked out at the attackers, caught one of them in the groin, I did it instinctively without thinking. Might or might not have been the kickboxing training but it certainly was no harm.

As mentioned though, avoidance is key, you shouldn't be in a confrontation with 4 of your mates against 3 scummers trying to chat to them, I would think ye could have made the escape in advance of the knife appearing tbh.

cambridge

crki76 wrote: »

I had the same problem when i came here, to Ireland( Limerick). I had no problems with stand up and with the ground but i was worry about the knife. As fast as i could save some extra money i went to study knife and stick fighting to autralia ( sydney - floro fighting systems) and later on to Philippines ( Manila). My good advice is : if you have a money travel around of world and study from professional not from charlatans.

Are you actually daft? A guy gets held up by a knife and your advice is to go spending 1000 of euro learning Filipino martial arts? You are deluded and your posts are dangerous.

crki76 wrote: »

buy a knife too. EDC knife i mean.It is not legal here, i know

Why are you telling people to buy illegal knifes?

Daniel S wrote: »

I won't lie, I do carry a knife (Victorinox Soldier, old model, or sometimes a Victorinox Huntsman) 99% of the time. But I'd never ever use it in a fight. Don't bring it out at night either.

I have a CRKT Hammond Cruiser too, but that never leaves the house apart from cycling and trips up to the Burren.

Listen mate, dead serious here, you're only asking for trouble carrying knives around with you. Fair enough, what you're carrying is a tool used for fixing bikes etc. but if you use that knife/tool as a weapon and hurt someone you risk jail time.

crki76 wrote: »

my EDCs:
Enlan 02
Spyderco Paramilitary 2
Enlan 01
Navy k-632


backup's knives:
swiss knife
leatherman

I am not trouble maker, i just want to survive.

I dont count CRKT M16 and Gerber( i forgot model).
I am speaking about tactical folding knives.

You are either a Walter Mitty, lying, or actually a nutcase. You should not be endorsing carrying knives, it's against the law to carry knives for self-defence reasons. I am reporting this post.

crki76 wrote: »

practically you can buy a tactical pen or any metal pen what is great weapon. Or you can carry a screwdriver what is not against the law here( actually it is- depends on garda officer )

It is against the law to carry a hidden weapon. Tactical pens, torches, knives, screwdrivers, hammers are all potential weapons. The question you have to answer are relating to the reasons why you carry them. If you carry them for self-defene reasons you are breaking the law. If you carry them to fix your bike, etc. it is ok. It's not simply possession it's usage. Do not stab people with knives or screwdrivers.

Daniel, serious here, do not listen to this lad he's mad.

Daniel S

RoverJames wrote: »

As mentioned though, avoidance is key, you shouldn't be in a confrontation with 4 of your mates against 3 scummers trying to chat to them, I would think ye could have made the escape in advance of the knife appearing tbh.

We were on our way home, walking like. 5 of us. They approached us and he already had the knife in his hand, not opened though.

crki76

i know that in Slovakia special army squats and special police officers ( something like ERU here ( police) and SAS in UK ( army)) train part of FFS ( Floro fighting systems) for too many reasons as well as Australian rangers, South Korean army ... Practically it is the same like Jim Wagner system or so on. I know that in P.I. is trained escrima as well as in USA ( of course, principles of escrima).
i was attacked twice with the knife every time i used my gun. here i have no gun, it is different between my country and ireland. And of course there is carry a knife legal.

crki76

the best way how to protect yourself is to avoid of any problems. Nobody needs to buy any equipment just needs to be careful, that is.

Daniel S

cambridge wrote: »

Listen mate, dead serious here, you're only asking for trouble carrying knives around with you. Fair enough, what you're carrying is a tool used for fixing bikes etc. but if you use that knife/tool as a weapon and hurt someone you risk jail time.

Totally agree. I carry the "knife" as a tool. I use it way too much to just leave it at home, I depend on it like a watch. I'm pretty sure I already said it, but I don't even look at it as a weapon. I'd be more likely to pick up a stick or brick off the ground if I had to.

Daniel S

So would TaeKwanDo be worthwhile as a form of self-defence?

crki76

Cambridge is right.
Still i think is better to save some money and to go abroad to train something efficient. 1000 e is maybe for flying ticket. Good q. would be how much this or any different person spends for unimportant things ( alcohol, clothes, fastfood...) per year? You could be surprised how nice amount you would get on the end.
Well, I am a collector I am not walking on the street and stabbing people ( and i hope no body wont do that). The true is that i am a mad guy who spends everything for information about self defense ( i speak about the raw form of SD). Everybody has any hobby, this is mine.
I am not a trouble maker as i wrote few posts above. My mistake, i am not posting here any more to avoid of any misunderstanding.
But if everybody is so fair like you Cambridge it would be paradise here. Bye

Peetrik

This whole thread is nuts, the advice being given is shocking.

1. You were dead right in running away.
2. Do not start carrying a weapon.
3. Taekwondo is a fun sport but IMO of little practical use for self defence, take up something full contact (boxing, mma, muay thai etc) if you want to learn how to fight.

Daniel S

Peetrik wrote: »

This whole thread is nuts, the advice being given is shocking.

1. You were dead right in running away.
2. Do not start carrying a weapon.
3. Taekwondo is a fun sport but IMO of little practical use for self defence, take up something full contact (boxing, mma, muay thai etc) if you want to learn how to fight.

I pretty much need my Swiss army knife, but I only carry when needed. Using it as a bottle opener on a night out isn't an excuse :pac:

So what would you recommend as a means of protecting yourself if you are attacked? Say if I want to stop him chasing.

cambridge

daniel try the krav maga club you will like it

https://www.facebook.com/pages/UL-Krav-Maga/161116823785

Daniel S

cambridge wrote: »

daniel try the krav maga club you will like it

https://www.facebook.com/pages/UL-Krav-Maga/161116823785

Had a look at it, but the times clash with Formula Student, which I can't miss.

Does look really good though.

Peetrik

Daniel S wrote: »

I pretty much need my Swiss army knife, but I only carry when needed. Using it as a bottle opener on a night out isn't an excuse :pac:

So what would you recommend as a means of protecting yourself if you are attacked? Say if I want to stop him chasing.

Personally I wouldn't rate my chances of convincing a member of the garda that I 'need' a swiss army knife. As Cambridge said, you could face jail time if your caught with it.

I'm assuming you mean what martial art would I recommend for protecting myself? As I said, something full contact with regular sparring in a club that competes (Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA).

Daniel S

Peetrik wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't rate my chances of convincing a member of the garda that I 'need' a swiss army knife. As Cambridge said, you could face jail time if your caught with it.

I'm assuming you mean what martial art would I recommend for protecting myself? As I said, something full contact with regular sparring in a club that competes (Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA).

Okay, maybe I'll leave it at home from now on.

I'll have a look into the ones you suggested. Thanks all!

Peetrik

There is a Thai Boxing club in Limrick open mondays - saturdays. The trainer Rob really knows his stuff and still competes professionally. I'd start there if I were you.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Eiremuaysiam-Thaiboxing-Gym-Limerick-Ireland/335646994574?sk=info

Dyr

You want to understand your options when it comes to blades then good filipino martial arts are one of the best options available to you.

My honest opinion is that unless your training always assumes the presence of a blade you aren't going to respond in an appropriate manner if you're unlucky enough to find yourself in that situation.

TrollHammaren

Sweet holy fúck, OP; you should probably ignore pretty much everything that was said by those lunatics in this forum.

If you want to learn self-defence to defend against a knife, you're coming from a flawed premise. The vast majority of martial arts are of very little use for defending yourself on the street, never mind against a knife.

After years and years of training intensely several times a week you might learn not to freeze when confronted, you might be more confident, and your reaction times might quicken, but you don't become capable of disarming knife-wielding aggressors or beating up a gang of thugs.

If you want to do a martial art, try whichever ones are within communiting distance and within your price range, and stick with the one you enjoy most. If you're not enjoying your training but doing it because everyone says it's "effective", you won't stick with it.

I do not recommend carrying around a knife. These guys might want to be seen as jaded badass commandos, but they just come across as delusional. Use a knife, screwdriver, leatherman, corckscrew, or whatever to defend yourself and you'll just end up dead or in prison.

Pride Fighter

I'll just wade in with a very recent story about this.

In Texas about 5 weeks ago, a woman was assaulted by a knife wielding maniac. Coincidentally one of the greatest martial artists ever was nearby to lend a hand. That martial artist was Guy Mezger, former king of pancrase, UFC tournament champion, black belt in karate and kickboxing, fought about 40 times in MMA, over 100 times as a kickboxer. He did overcome the assailant. But the amount of damage done to him was horrific. He needed dozens of stitches in his hand, he was stabbed several times trying to disarm him.

If someone that good can get damaged so badly, maybe you did the right thing in running away. I think someone advised muay thai. That is what I'd do, if you were to pick one. But dont think you're superman if you get good eventually. Anything can and does happen.

Doug Cartel

Wow, the first time in several years that I step away form a computer, and everything goes mental.

I realise that other people have covered this, but carrying a knife for self defence purposes is not a good idea. It is against the law, and it's probably going to make things worse if you ever decide to pull it out.

It's boards.ie policy that we cannot discuss ways to carry out illegal things, so no more suggestions that anyone carries weapons please.

p to the e

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Wow, the first time in several years that I step away form a computer, and everything goes mental.

I realise that other people have covered this, but carrying a knife for self defence purposes is not a good idea. It is against the law, and it's probably going to make things worse if you ever decide to pull it out.

It's boards.ie policy that we cannot discuss ways to carry out illegal things, so no more suggestions that anyone carries weapons please.

I can't believe the thread lasted as long as it did with some of the crazy suggestions. Trust me OP you don't want to go messing about with lads with knives. After 120 stitches in my face I can testify to that. Don't take up a martial art with the intent of going out stopping crime as it could be very dangerous. Take it up for fun.

It sounds like you're a bit traumatised by the whole incident which is very normal. Talk to your friends, family or GP if you're feeling at all anxious. Suppressing it will not help. Some people can train their whole lives and never come across any such incident and then some people can just be unlucky. You should be proud that you handled the situation without anyone getting seriously hurt.

arybvtcw0eolkf

p to the e wrote: »

I can't believe the thread lasted as long as it did with some of the crazy suggestions. Trust me OP you don't want to go messing about with lads with knives. After 120 stitches in my face I can testify to that. Don't take up a martial art with the intent of going out stopping crime as it could be very dangerous. Take it up for fun.

It sounds like you're a bit traumatised by the whole incident which is very normal. Talk to your friends, family or GP if you're feeling at all anxious. Suppressing it will not help. Some people can train their whole lives and never come across any such incident and then some people can just be unlucky. You should be proud that you handled the situation without anyone getting seriously hurt.

On this I think we'll look at bringing this thread to a close, just too many crazies coming out to play in it.

OP IMO, and I'm around a long, long time what TrollH and P posted just about hits the nail on the head.

Daniel S

Okay, thanks. I just want to be able to protect myself if I have no other options.

Jumpy

If you want a good way of finding out exactly how difficult it is to defend against a knife, try getting someone to attack you with a whiteboard marker.

Then crap yourself realising that every line on you would be a wound against a knife.