Eircom eFibre VDSL/FTTC rollout – plans to reach 1.6m premises by mid 2016

smelly sock

jca wrote: »

There's no chance of UPC ever becoming a de-facto monopoly they're only interested in the cities and very large towns. I'd hardly call my speed jumping from 8 meg to 48 meg for €35 pm(€50 after 6 months) an "incremental" increase. I'd sooner enjoy 48 meg than stay with 8 meg and wait for "some" telecoms company to arrive and give me ftth. It ain't going to happen.

Keep the faith JCA.

I was told late last year that there were no plans to upgrade my estate by UPC. Yet, 2 months after that I was getting 200 meg down and ten up.

jca

smelly sock wrote: »

Keep the faith JCA.

I was told late last year that there were no plans to upgrade my estate by UPC. Yet, 2 months after that I was getting 200 meg down and ten up.

I can't see it happening here tbh. We were given all the promises at each price increase, the service actually got worse if anything. Realistically though, Can anyone here see ftth becoming a reality for everyone?

Nonoperational

Not for a very long time. And it is possible that copper technology will keep improving so that it is adequate for the last 100 metres for a long time yet.

ED E

jca wrote: »

I can't see it happening here tbh. We were given all the promises at each price increase, the service actually got worse if anything. Realistically though, Can anyone here see ftth becoming a reality for everyone?

For everyone? No way. For some, yes, very much so.

jca

ED E wrote: »

For everyone? No way. For some, yes, very much so.

I don't mean literally everyone but for, say the same amount of customers who can get fttc? I can't see it tbh. I'd love to see it but, I really don't think I will.

ED E

VDSL can be a platform for it. Its putting fibre nodes in the middle of estates that can slowly be transitioned to FTTH later on.

The great thing with fibre is you can drastically increase bandwidth by just swapping the terminators at either end but using the same lines. So even if the VDSL cabs dont currently have the bandwidth to support FTTH they could cheaply be made to later. Swap VDSL cards for fibre cards as needed and away you go.

When ESB go live in 4 or 5 years then we'll see eircom move in that direction, until then they wont need to bother and getting more VDSL and replacing all the terrible old radio ASAMS in small towns should be and will be the priority.

bk

Impetus wrote: »

It seems to be that the main issue to bear in mind is that it would be extremely unwise if UPC had a de-facto monopoly. You would end up with a situation as is the case in many parts of the US where many households are paying $150 to $200 a month to the local cable monopoly, for what by European standards is a crappy service. By crappy I mean quality of service and contention ratio issues - rather than speeds which are just marketing hype for idiots.

Huh? UPC aren't the monopoly here. Eircom were and are the monopoly company. You seem to have forgotten your history. UPC entered the market only about 8 years ago, spent 500 million upgrading their network and in doing so totally revolutionised the market. UPC are largely only available in the main cities and soem big towns and it is very unlikely that they will ever significantly expand outside of these areas. So they can't really ever have a monopoly.

Trust me Eircom would not be doing this VDSL rollout and possibly FTTH in the future if it wasn't for the competition from UPC.

Impetus wrote: »

In many countries you have just two pipelines to compete. Cable and xDSL. xDSL is dead and there are many companies selling VDSL2 kit to xDSLers (like eircom) (like they sold ADSL2+ kit a few years ago) grabbing a few hundred million in the process, and delivering only an incremental increase in performance for the money. Back in the day eircom spent zillions installing modems to provide "flat rate" dial up internet. As old fashioned telcos try and stretch their copper pair shelf life for another few years. Each generation means a large new investment. Telcos would be far better off grasping the nettle, and installing future proof fibre - uninstalling the expensive copper / switched network completely.

I sort of thought the same way a few years ago but having seen how fast and how well Eircoms rollout is going, I have to disagree now.

Going from 4 to 12 mb/s ADSL to 100mb/s VDSL isn't an "incremental" increase it is a massive jump.

Here is the thing, by going VDSL, Eircom have been able to reach far more people, far faster, for less money with decent high speed broadband, then they could have with FTTH.

Lets Compare:
- For 500 million Eircom will reach 1.4 million homes in 3 years with VDSL
- For 500 million ESB will reach 500,000 homes in 5 years with FTTH

In order for Eircom to connect the same 1.4 million homes with FTTH, it would thus have cost them about 1.5 billion (which they don't have) and taken about 15 years!!!

I'm sure the majority of 1.4 million people would be much happier having "good enough" 100mb/s BB today, then being stuck on 4mb/s for the next 15 years waiting for FTTH!!

The reality is 100mb/s is good enough for most people for at least the next 5 years. Most people use wifi which currently maxes out at 80mb/s anyway, so if you can get Eircom@100mb/s, UPC@200mb/s or ESB@1tb/s it is mostly irrelevant as you are going to be throttled by the 80mb/s wifi anyway.

Also Eircom have very much future proofed their VDSL rollout for upgrading to FTTH in future. They have seemingly laid enough fibre to each VDSL cabinet to convert them to FTTH in future as needed.

And the thing that people need to understand, is that most of the work and investment in the VDSL rollout isn't wasted, that most of the same work would have had to be done if they did FTTH instead.

They still would have to install each fibre cabinet anyway and they still would have had to bring fibre to each cabinet.

The only extra cost of doing VDSL that they wouldn't otherwise have, is the DSLAMs in the fibre cabinets and the VDSL modems. But to be honest those are an incredibly small cost compared to the cost of the fibre cabinets and installing them and running fibre to them. You are probably talking only about 10% to 20% of the 500 million being "wasted" on VDSL versus FTTH.

To be honest, Eircoms strategy is turning out to be very shrewd. Giving the majority of people "good enough" high speed Broadband with VDSL for the next 5 years, while building a network from which they will be easily able to do FTTH upgrades as needed. All very sensible.

Impetus wrote: »

The only sustainable country-wide solution is an open fibre optic network available to all types of ISPs and content suppliers and telcos, working to a common standard, and available to everybody.

A very nice idea, that I would personally support, but the realist in me knows will never happen. We maybe had the opportunity to do this back when Eircom was privatised, by splitting the company and keeping the network under semi state ownership, but unfortunately the politicians couldn't see it and were too greddy back then.

Now with private companies (Eircom/UPC/ESB) doing fibre to most of urban and semi-urban Ireland on their own, the government will see little justification for spending lots of money to do this for themselves. The best we can hope for is the new ESB FTTH network and maybe the government giving some subsidies for rural BB.

Nonoperational

Another excellent post.

To say that VDSL is a pointless waste of resources is just incorrect in my opinion. It itself is not a bad medium term technology at all, and Eircom are actually leading the way with such widespread and quick implementation of vectoring.

I would be a heavy internet user in a house with 2 other heavy users. I'm maxed out at 50Mbit on VDSL, and to be honest it's is absolutely ample bandwidth at the moment. Simultaneous HD streams including super HD 1080p Netflix, torrents, music streaming and numerous people browsing uses less than 50% of the available bandwidth, if that. I really could't be happier with it at the moment to be honest.

Added to that, it hasn't dropped once that I've noticed since I've had it, and it's pretty cheap too at around €40 for unlimited net and calls.

Capt'n Midnight

Nonoperational wrote: »

Not for a very long time. And it is possible that copper technology will keep improving so that it is adequate for the last 100 metres for a long time yet.

Copper technology has NOT improved.

And even if it had the problem is the quality of the existing copper in the ground.

The whole point of efibre is to bypass all the copper between the exchange and cabinet. The copper hasn't gotten better, the only reason there is less noise and loss on the line is because it's shorter.


Just a reminder
Discovery Channel is on 575MHz on UPC in Dublin.
Phone cable to your house was designed for 0.0033MHz and that's why the speeds fall off when you move away from the cabinet.

Sam Russell

jca wrote: »

The slab isn't poured. It arrives on the lorry as a pre-cast block, saves installation time I suppose.

I was talking to some guys installing one just up from mine. The box comes fully stocked and is just plonked down. He said they install 7 boxes a day, so there is hope that I may be connected before the month is out. However, I am not holding my breath.

fat-tony

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was talking to some guys installing one just up from mine. The box comes fully stocked and is just plonked down. He said they install 7 boxes a day, so there is hope that I may be connected before the month is out. However, I am not holding my breath.

It's worth the wait, Sam! Have had eFibre since Nov and the performance is just brilliant. Vectoring has just been turned on in my local cabinet so I'm looking forward to a further speed boost.

Sam Russell

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Copper technology has NOT improved.


Phone cable to your house was designed for 0.0033MHz and that's why the speeds fall off when you move away from the cabinet.

No that is not correct. The twin wires that used to run from pole to pole were 600 ohm pairs and in that configuration could pass 3.3 khz. A equalizer was used every so often to keep the signal going . That was a century ago.



Now twisted pairs can pass 10 or 100 mhz or more, no bother. Digital signals can be reformed in repeaters without loss. I am getting 12 Mbits on my twisted pair at 2 km from the exchange. That is all copper.

What has changed with fibre is that the fibre can deliver gigabytes of data per fibre. At the end of the fibre, you are back to copper again.

Nonoperational

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Copper technology has NOT improved.

And even if it had the problem is the quality of the existing copper in the ground.

The whole point of efibre is to bypass all the copper between the exchange and cabinet. The copper hasn't gotten better, the only reason there is less noise and loss on the line is because it's shorter.


Just a reminder
Discovery Channel is on 575MHz on UPC in Dublin.
Phone cable to your house was designed for 0.0033MHz and that's why the speeds fall off when you move away from the cabinet.

Disagree. Copper has gone from providing a few bits per second, to 24Mbit ADSL direct from the exchange, to 100Mbit VDSL2+ with help from fibre. The line may be the same but the implementation of the technology and expanded frequency use has made it a viable medium term option. That was my point. With fibre getting closer to properties copper will be an adequate last few 100 meters for quite a while yet.


Bit of reading on VDSL here if anyone is interested. Old but still quite interesting. http://www.ericsson.com/ro/res/thecompany/docs/publications/ericsson_review/2006/vdsl2.pdf

red_bairn

bk wrote: »

To be honest, Eircoms strategy is turning out to be very shrewd. Giving the majority of people "good enough" high speed Broadband with VDSL for the next 5 years, while building a network from which they will be easily able to do FTTH upgrades as needed. All very sensible.

Well I hope they are gonna be very sensible and include us in that 1.4million homes.

How are they gonna provide our household with FTTH? The cabinet has been live since Nov/Dec 2013 and I've had to ask about and we eventually found out from people that the majority of households in our estate are direct fed from the exchange. People said on here, "oh sure they'll add DSLAMs inside the exchange or a VDSL cabinet just outside it"...but they don't realise we're 2.3km from the exchange.

So how are those who are in our position gonna be provided? What will Eircom do for us?

Nonoperational

It has been said many times that they are working with Comreg to sort something for this situation but it is likely a year or more away.

Just because there are some exceptions doesn't mean this isn't a great role out. I had a look at the cabinet map there and it's really great the number of cabinets they have rolled out already.

ED E

red_bairn wrote: »

Well I hope they are gonna be very sensible and include us in that 1.4million homes.

How are they gonna provide our household with FTTH? The cabinet has been live since Nov/Dec 2013 and I've had to ask about and we eventually found out from people that the majority of households in our estate are direct fed from the exchange. People said on here, "oh sure they'll add DSLAMs inside the exchange or a VDSL cabinet just outside it"...but they don't realise we're 2.3km from the exchange.

So how are those who are in our position gonna be provided? What will Eircom do for us?

Chances are they wont.

Hope for good fixed wireless, thats the best you'll see unless the ESB put a fibre node near you.

NextYearIthink

The nearest cab to me now shows as "work in progress".....anybody know how long it might take now before it is ready and active based on past experience?


BSZ1_006

Fibre Build commenced - completion work is in progress

bk

red_bairn wrote: »

How are they gonna provide our household with FTTH? The cabinet has been live since Nov/Dec 2013 and I've had to ask about and we eventually found out from people that the majority of households in our estate are direct fed from the exchange. People said on here, "oh sure they'll add DSLAMs inside the exchange or a VDSL cabinet just outside it"...but they don't realise we're 2.3km from the exchange.

So how are those who are in our position gonna be provided? What will Eircom do for us?

In the short to medium term, they will probably do nothing for you.

As others have pointed out, a solution for exchange direct fed lines is being worked on and is on it's way, however even when it comes it won't help you as your too far from the exchange.

The reality is that they are going to do the low hanging fruit first. Get as many cabinets as possible installed and get as many people connected to those as possible.

And in doing so, the majority of people will benefit from this rollout.

But unfortunately there will always be the exceptions like you, a minority of people for whatever reason that can't be easily or cheaply serviced.

I'm hopeful that once they finish the main rollout, that they may come back around and deal with the more difficult cases like yourself. Perhaps they could re-route your phone line to a closer cabinet if one is close by?

In the long term they will probably eventually do FTTH, however I wouldn't hold my breath.

Would you possibly be in an area that might be serviced by the ESB FTTH rollout? That will be targeting homes in towns with populations more then 4,000 people.

Capt'n Midnight

red_bairn wrote: »

Well I hope they are gonna be very sensible and include us in that 1.4million homes.

Nope.
Ain't going to happen in the short term.

eircom are strapped for cash so they will concentrate on getting the best bang for their buck. Not that any other organisation would do any differently. It's the difficult choice of putting up a cab that supports 192 customers in the middle of a village or housing estate versus sticking it along a road where they might not even be 19 houses within 1Km of it.

Maybe in future they will have micro cabinets that could service a dozen customers, but that still needs electrical power and installation.

The fact that there is a whole estate might make a difference, if it's a big enough one, but they are concentrating on the low hanging fruit first.


Check and see what wireless groups are in your area if any / if you have line of sight to any of your neighbours who have the good stuff.


Also Rome wasn't built in a day. In the bad old days people waiting for cable TV couldn't go to a different provider if the incumbent in the area had given them an install date, even one 5 years in the future :eek: (Old thread abut NTL in Dunsink IIRC)

jantheman91

Do the technicians that come out to install fibre just work Mon-Fri?

Nonoperational

They work Sat too.

thefinalstage

Nonoperational wrote: »

They work Sat too.

Only as overtime though so not guaranteed. The standard in 8:30 to 4:30 Monday to Friday.

domeld

They have paid by installation (15 Euro) so some of them are working even Sundays :]

red_bairn

bk wrote: »

In the short to medium term, they will probably do nothing for you.

As others have pointed out, a solution for exchange direct fed lines is being worked on and is on it's way, however even when it comes it won't help you as your too far from the exchange.

The reality is that they are going to do the low hanging fruit first. Get as many cabinets as possible installed and get as many people connected to those as possible.

And in doing so, the majority of people will benefit from this rollout.

But unfortunately there will always be the exceptions like you, a minority of people for whatever reason that can't be easily or cheaply serviced.

I'm hopeful that once they finish the main rollout, that they may come back around and deal with the more difficult cases like yourself. Perhaps they could re-route your phone line to a closer cabinet if one is close by?

In the long term they will probably eventually do FTTH, however I wouldn't hold my breath.

Would you possibly be in an area that might be serviced by the ESB FTTH rollout? That will be targeting homes in towns with populations more then 4,000 people.

It's the only way. But perhaps our line doesn't go by the nearest cabinet? The nearest is 500m away and we have 166 houses in our estate. So plenty of room for the VDSL cabinet. If the majority of the homes in our estate can't access it, they might want to think of some civils.

There are 17000+ in Greystones and the newer part, Charlesland, has the UPC fibre network because the apartments/houses are newer builds and they probably organised it with the developers to put that system in place.

So we can't get UPC, ESB FTTH will be years away and Eircom is at our doorstep... :rolleyes:

RustDaz

Is there a website that gives reliable info on the progress of the roll out of broadband?

OneEightSeven

RustDaz wrote: »

Is there a website that gives reliable info on the progress of the roll out of broadband?

This is decent enough: http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/Our_Network/#nga-map

RustDaz

OneEightSeven wrote: »

This is decent enough: http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/Our_Network/#nga-map

Cheers

f0zzy

Is there anyway to get a timetable on when planned services will roll out ?

Thanks

F0z

bk

red_bairn wrote: »

It's the only way. But perhaps our line doesn't go by the nearest cabinet? The nearest is 500m away and we have 166 houses in our estate. So plenty of room for the VDSL cabinet. If the majority of the homes in our estate can't access it, they might want to think of some civils.

Well that sounds like relatively good news, assuming all 166 houses in the estate are exchange direct feed, then the sensible solution would be to install a fibre cab in the estate and run all the wires too it.

I'm only guessing, but I assume at some point, all the telephone cables in your estate meet up somewhere and are combined into one big bundle which then runs to the exchange.

It would thus be only slightly more complicated then a normal fibre cabinet install. It would involve dropping a junction cabinet at the point where all the cables meet up, cutting the cables and splicing them into the junction cabinet. Then it is just a case of a standard VDSL install of dropping a fibre cabinet next to the junction cabinet.

I say this may well come under the plan on how to fix exchange only lines. I believe the reason fixing exchange only lines is taking long is that it isn't just a case of dropping VDSL DSLAMs in the exchanges, I believe it is a much bigger project to reconfigure the physical network and to add more junction boxes, etc. to estates like yours.

I'd say you are in a much more likely to get eFibre then some poor person living in a one off house in a ribbon development in rural Ireland.

ED E

If they're all direct fed then they go back to a 200 pair somewhere. There may be a junction in a UG cavity. If theres room above that build the cabs there and jumper them over.