Eircom eFibre VDSL/FTTC rollout – plans to reach 1.6m premises by mid 2016

OneEightSeven

MBSnr wrote: »

While I'd agree with the position on rural cabinets, I don't on your solution that they are better off moving. Honestly, that's your answer? Did you really think it out or is it a broad sweeping statement? I'd say the latter.

There is the option of fixed wireless but it's not being done properly - there isn't enough backhaul to support it. They are better off moving because the physics of broadband are not going to evolve just because a few people decided to save a few quid by buying a house in the countryside. I understand that some inherited their home but things still stand.

Why is it that those in the town/city seem to think the ONLY solution, for all issues, is for those in rural areas to move to a town/city?

Because it's the truth; so much so, even you couldn't offer an alternative solution.

No neither. You'd be amazed, but many successful businesses exist outside of cities and towns.

If they can survive without fast broadband, then more power to them.

ED E

He's right, if broadband is important to you, move. Rural dwellers will always be, naturally, last to get any upgrades.


In a year or two we'll have 500Mbps cable and you'll still be on a 6Mb unreliable wireless link. If thats ok for you, fine, but I know for me it sure as hell wouldn't be.

Johnboy1951

That 'move' argument rather amuses me at this stage ...... maybe those residing in the West/rest of the country should tell Dubliners to move out because they don't have sufficient flow of water and want to take it from the Shannon.

One is equally as ridiculous as the other.

MBSnr

^^^
Exactly. If I move to a town can I bring the farm with me? Oh wait...

murphaph

MBSnr wrote: »

^^^
Exactly. If I move to a town can I bring the farm with me? Oh wait...

You know full well that if the only isolated one off dwellers were farmer that it's a manageable problem that could actually be tackled with a subsidised fixed wireless programme. Do you think German farms or French farms etc. are all connected to high speed broadband? There are many hundreds of villages in Germany (so not even isolated farmhouses, actual villages) without even ADSL, still reliant on dialup (well more likely ISDN but still crap). I presume France and Italy are the same. Ireland is catching up and overtaking these places.

See This map (select "Festnetz") and then select all the options from ADSL to FTTH and you'll see vast gaps in the coverage. In Germany the numbers affected are proportionally lower, because living in isolated one off properties is fairly unusual here (and was in Ireland until the 20th century and its bungalow blitz).

The problem is that most people in one off houses aren't farmers and don't need to live where they do...they choose to for various reasons and as part of that choice, sh!te broadband needs to be factored in.

It will get better and eventually isolated one off dwellers will get that VDSL but by then the urban centres will be on gigabit FTTH. It'll continue this way because that is the economics of it....these rollouts have to make money for the telco doing them.

MBSnr

^^^
I agree totally with you. My point is that it isn't always possible to move, so the posters implying that moving is the answer are not looking at the larger picture.

Capt'n Midnight

Machinehead wrote: »

As far as I can recall the promise is to get rural villages on fibre, no mention of ribbon developments on individual 1/2 acre sites beyond these villages.

The clue is in the thread title , 60% of premises.

This is from the Indo so take with pinch of salt http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/one-million-homes-and-businesses-to-get-broadband-boost-30219985.html

The plan envisages 900,000 of Ireland's estimated 2.3 million premises gaining access to the new fibre network. This will be dominated by a target list of 1,100 small towns and villages that are identified as having no other high-speed broadband service available.
...
He said that the list of 1,100 small towns was the result of a mapping exercise conducted by the Government during the last year.
...
The minister said that the plan had been costed on a per-kilometre basis and that the State's roll-out bill could be contained at €355m if infrastructure such as railway lines or state-owned roadside structures could be "leveraged" to help distribute the fibre lines, instead of having to dig new trenches.

murphaph

MBSnr wrote: »

^^^
I agree totally with you. My point is that it isn't always possible to move, so the posters implying that moving is the answer are not looking at the larger picture.

Of course. A farmer cannot move (within reason, if he has only cereals he could actually move to a nearby town, but that's a side issue). He's presumably talking about all the people who have made the choice to live in one-off properties, not the (much smaller number) of people who have to live in one-off properties.

Let's be honest, most one-off owners aren't farmers and don't need to live on the land, they just want to.

MBSnr

murphaph wrote: »

Let's be honest, most one-off owners aren't farmers and don't need to live on the land, they just want to.

Not strictly true. This varies based on location. Of the 20 or so houses around me, about 2 people travel to Galway and Castlebar. The others are either farmers, run a business from their property or all work locally (hotel, accountant, teacher, builder) - certainly within 5Km.

OneEightSeven

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That 'move' argument rather amuses me at this stage ...... maybe those residing in the West/rest of the country should tell Dubliners to move out because they don't have sufficient flow of water and want to take it from the Shannon.

One is equally as ridiculous as the other.

No, that's just stupid. There are plenty of rivers in Ireland to pump water from, it's a very wet country, in case you haven't noticed; but even if there wasn't, there's certainly enough tax money to pump from the Shannon considering there's nearly 2 million people living in the Greater Dublin area.

OneEightSeven

MBSnr wrote: »

^^^
Exactly. If I move to a town can I bring the farm with me? Oh wait...

This debate was about ribbon developments. You even quoted the part where I mentioned ribbon devolopments.

I seen your post on the vectoring thread and you appear to have eFiber already, so what's the problem?

MBSnr

OneEightSeven wrote: »

This debate was about ribbon developments. You even quoted the part where I mentioned ribbon devolopments.

I seen your post on the vectoring thread and you appear to have eFiber already, so what's the problem?

I'm the one that works in Galway.... it's a business line

MBSnr

Ok - the way I see it is we aren't going to agree. All the thumbs up for each post are seemingly divided between the rural dwellers and the town dwellers giving support to whoever they side with. Those who live in rural areas expect more and those in towns say if you want more then move. I would like fast internet access at my house and who knows, I may get it at some point. But I'm not going to move into town to get it now though. Other priorities are more important to me and I used to live in the suburbs - wouldn't go back.

Capt'n Midnight

OneEightSeven wrote: »

No, that's just stupid. There are plenty of rivers in Ireland to pump water from, it's a very wet country, in case you haven't noticed; but even if there wasn't, there's certainly enough tax money to pump from the Shannon considering there's nearly 2 million people living in the Greater Dublin area.

Reverse osmosis might be cheaper and it would be a handy way of using excess renewable electricity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Water_Desalination_Plant



If we had nationalised eircom's networks , like we did with Eirgrid or insisted on FTTH or even just to new estates things could have been very different.


Eircom are going flat out so if you aren't on the roadmap then you really have to ask another provider.

I should imagine that lots of community wireless schemes should be really interested in this because now there is the opportunity for cheap 100Mb backhaul if you can get to it with repeaters.

Gonzo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That is such a ridiculous idea I find it hard to believe it was posted!

:eek: :rolleyes:

While he's right about it being difficult for rippon developments, it's a bit over the top expecting them to move to a town just for the sake of better broadband. Thing is, I would argue most of counties Meath, Kildare, parts of Louth and Wicklow are mainly ribbon development homes. We would need to build some very large towns to occupy all these people!

Gonzo

MBSnr wrote: »

^^^
I found this today. http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/2013/chart-bt-fttc-vdsl2-speed-against-distance

any chance Eircom would ever make these speeds available on fibre lines 2-3km? Those speeds aren't bad, much better than Eircom's 7meg max at 2km. Going by that chart if I am connected to the nearest cabinet I would get close to 17meg, that would be a huge upgrade for me.

MBSnr

Gonzo wrote: »

any chance Eircom would ever make these speeds available on fibre lines 2-3km? Those speeds aren't bad, much better than Eircom's 7meg max at 2km. Going by that chart if I am connected to the nearest cabinet I would get close to 17meg, that would be a huge upgrade for me.

At present (and I had it confirmed) they are only doing out to 2Km line distance from street cabs. Once exchanges outside of the cities start being fibre enabled and if/when Eircom start enabling direct fed lines, we'd get reports of attainable rates versus line distance.

It seems that they already had adopted a phased approach - first any line under 1Km was considered and now they have pushed this out to 2Km. There just aren't enough reports on here with confirmed line length and speed/attenuation figures to compare speeds at 2Km and if anything over 2Km can realistically be considered. I'm hopeful that they would and vectoring seemingly gives an uplift on the shorter to medium distance <1KM but combined with G.INP perhaps even beyond 2Km is possible if the line is fairly clean.

Our local exchange would have 100s of direct fed customers but how many are <2km? I read that the DSLAM in the street cabs can cater for 200 lines. How many DSLAMs are they intending to fit in the exchange I wonder? Just enough to cover those lines out to 2Km or have they capacity factored into the costings....

Johnboy1951

OneEightSeven wrote: »

Originally Posted by Johnboy1951
That 'move' argument rather amuses me at this stage ...... maybe those residing in the West/rest of the country should tell Dubliners to move out because they don't have sufficient flow of water and want to take it from the Shannon.

One is equally as ridiculous as the other.

No, that's just stupid. There are plenty of rivers in Ireland to pump water from, it's a very wet country, in case you haven't noticed; but even if there wasn't, there's certainly enough tax money to pump from the Shannon considering there's nearly 2 million people living in the Greater Dublin area.

Water is to be taken from the Shannon and pumped to Dublin, so Dubliners do not have to move to where the resource is plentiful

Yet you expect rural dwellers to move to where the broadband resources are plentiful.

Why is it different to expect Dubliners to move to where the water is plentiful?



One is as ridiculous as the other!

murphaph

MBSnr wrote: »

Not strictly true. This varies based on location. Of the 20 or so houses around me, about 2 people travel to Galway and Castlebar. The others are either farmers, run a business from their property or all work locally (hotel, accountant, teacher, builder) - certainly within 5Km.

The ones that work locally could just as easily live in the next village. They choose not to. The guy who runs the non farming business too probably.

Capt'n Midnight

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Water is to be taken from the Shannon and pumped to Dublin, so Dubliners do not have to move to where the resource is plentiful

Yet you expect rural dwellers to move to where the broadband resources are plentiful.

Why is it different to expect Dubliners to move to where the water is plentiful?



One is as ridiculous as the other!

Actually not. Water metering should reduce demand. Also the scheme is one piece of infrastructure that will supply about 1/3rd of the population.

About 1m premises won't benefit from the current efibre roll out. Since the cabs can serve a little under 200 customers you are looking at tens of thousands of rollouts to fill in the gaps

bk

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Water is to be taken from the Shannon and pumped to Dublin, so Dubliners do not have to move to where the resource is plentiful

This is a ridiculous point. Dublin currently gets all it's water from the greater Dublin region. There is a plan to take water from the Shannon in the future.

However it wasn't the only option, there were other options to increase the amount of water stored and taken from the greater Dublin region. It is just that the Shannon option is the cheapest option. If needed they could go with the other options.

And in some way this proves the whole point. Just one large pipe from the Shannon to Dublin will supply the water needs to 1m people. However a single fiber cable from Dublin to rural Ireland won't supply BB to everyone in rural Ireland.

Billions would need to supply FTTH to everyone in rural Ireland.

People who live in rural Ireland need to be realistic about what they can get. If they want to improve things, don't expect the government or a private company to do it for you. You are going to need to do things for yourself. Work with your local community to set up fixed wireless services, etc.

fat-tony

Careful there bk - Dublin gets its water mostly from Wicklow;)

Impetus

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Where are you getting this stuff about how things are done on the "Continent"? You did not address the proof which I provided that the exact opposite pertains in Germany to the perfect world you think exists. I simply do not believe that utilities engineers anywhere turn up at an exact agreed time, or even 5 or 10 minutes late which you allowed would be acceptable. Germany is not that much different now than 2008 afaik and human nature is the same the world over, some good workers, some not so good.

Anyway what advantage would having an exact time gain for a typical commuter who has to travel to work, say from Dundalk to Dublin if their house is empty during the day? Effectively they would still have to take a full day off. If they have someone else at home it is not an issue.

The "Continent" is a meaningless appelation. If you want to provide proof of your imaginary perfect world out there please specify what countries you mean. And Germany is out.

waiting around for hours for some flake is not a very good option for me.
Get use to it, because it is normal in Germany for many things.

If there was wide ranging failure by Eircom/KN to stick to agreed schedules we would have heard about it after the thousands of installations which have been done.

While I can't speak of experience in Germany in particular, things tend to happen to time on the continent. It is called punctuality.

It is not beyond the bounds of a computerised planning system to allocate fairly precise time segments to each task for a repairer or installer. The time required for fixing a set-top box installation, a phone line, or repairing an alarm system can be reasonably accurately estimated based on the type of fault described by the user. The travelling time between customers is a GPS job. A company that does not manage its workforce time spent is not a well managed company. Time spent = part of the cost of providing service to that customer. These issues should not go unquantified, and therefore should be acted on.

There is no excuse for "half-day or all day vagueness" in 2014. It is a symptom of a monopoly and a sign of abuse of that monopoly. If someone orders furniture or an electrical appliance, there is generally no problem in my experience getting it delivered within a specified hour on a specified day, even though generally the supplier names the hour, With organised suppliers anyway. No different to showing up for a dentist's appointment on time.

You smell as if you are speaking for, or are employed by one of these monopoly service providers, because I find it difficult to believe that anybody (on the receiving end) who has to take a half day or full day off work, particularly if out of holiday entitlements or otherwise unpaid, waiting for a technician to call, would be motivated to write your type of posting.

Alsalmo

fat-tony wrote: »

Careful there bk - Dublin gets its water mostly from Wicklow;)

Actually, the two biggest water supply sources for Dublin at situated in Ballymore Eustace and Leixlip, both of which are in County Kildare.

UP THE LILIES!

jspuds

Back on track with the forum please

dxhound2005

Impetus wrote: »

While I can't speak of experience in Germany in particular, things tend to happen to time on the continent. It is called punctuality.

It is not beyond the bounds of a computerised planning system to allocate fairly precise time segments to each task for a repairer or installer. The time required for fixing a set-top box installation, a phone line, or repairing an alarm system can be reasonably accurately estimated based on the type of fault described by the user. The travelling time between customers is a GPS job. A company that does not manage its workforce time spent is not a well managed company. Time spent = part of the cost of providing service to that customer. These issues should not go unquantified, and therefore should be acted on.

There is no excuse for "half-day or all day vagueness" in 2014. It is a symptom of a monopoly and a sign of abuse of that monopoly. If someone orders furniture or an electrical appliance, there is generally no problem in my experience getting it delivered within a specified hour on a specified day, even though generally the supplier names the hour, With organised suppliers anyway. No different to showing up for a dentist's appointment on time.

You smell as if you are speaking for, or are employed by one of these monopoly service providers, because I find it difficult to believe that anybody (on the receiving end) who has to take a half day or full day off work, particularly if out of holiday entitlements or otherwise unpaid, waiting for a technician to call, would be motivated to write your type of posting.

In your head all of this utopia is possible. But not in real life. Offer me some real life examples. I don't know why you continue with these fanciful notions in the face of the contrary evidence on the thread. Or maybe you didn't bother reading it. So here is an example:

I've had French installers turn up on the wrong day, not turn up at all, ring and cancel and then actually install the wrong product entirely!

Also, you won't get tech support outside certain hours depending on your ISP and if you want tech support in English, they'd probably suggest you provide a translator.

In Spain, I couldn't get any tech support whatsoever from Telefonica in anything other than Spanish or Basque. They provided very little assistance online and were very awkward to deal with at almost all times.

I couldn't even pay a bill from Ireland as they wouldn't accept non Spanish cards or provide me with information for paying by bank transfer.

Belgacom also left me waiting 3 days in Belgium and kept not showing up.

Don't get me started about my experience getting Comcast to install something in the US!


And I told you that my installer had all "non standard" installations before he got to me and had to arrange for a colleague to take over his later jobs. In the real world your precisely timed schedules would go out the window as soon as some unexpected snag was encountered.

irishgeo

Cab install works taking place in claremorris.

fat-tony

Alsalmo wrote: »

Actually, the two biggest water supply sources for Dublin at situated in Ballymore Eustace and Leixlip, both of which are in County Kildare.

UP THE LILIES!

I'll give you the water treatment plant is in Kildare, but most of the water is in Pollaphuca Reservoir in Wicklow, as is Vartry Reservoir:D

degsie

fat-tony wrote: »

I'll give you the water treatment plant is in Kildare, but most of the water is in Pollaphuca Reservoir in Wicklow, as is Vartry Reservoir:D

I'll better that. Most water comes from rainclouds!

Impetus

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I've had French installers turn up on the wrong day, not turn up at all, ring and cancel and then actually install the wrong product entirely!

I find that hard to believe, as in my experience the French are punctual. Period.

Language ability varies depending on the country. It is less flexible in bigger countries - GB, FR, ES and IT. Smaller countries are more linguistically flexible in my experience.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

In Spain, I couldn't get any tech support whatsoever from Telefonica in anything other than Spanish or Basque. They provided very little assistance online and were very awkward to deal with at almost all times.

Try getting support in Basque, Catalan or even Spanish from Eircom and their "competitors".

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I couldn't even pay a bill from Ireland as they wouldn't accept non Spanish cards or provide me with information for paying by bank transfer.

There is a thing called SEPA which is legally required in every Eurocurrency state. It handles direct debits, credit transfers, and electronic banking originated transfers Eurozone wide.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Don't get me started about my experience getting Comcast to install something in the US!

Comcast is one of the most hated companies in the US. It seems to me to be trying to create a 100% monopoly of the American internet business for consumers. I wouldn't be surprised if they won't start attempting to take over Hollywood as well (content production companies) to give them vertical integration and total control. Ireland is following close to the US in this regard with the incompetent government giving UPC a monopoly over cable, and they are now going into mobile telephony in IRL.