History textbook. Mental abuse?

_NY_

Have you ever read through your child's history book?

I was just blown away by yesterday's homework.
My nine-year-old came to me all in tears saying that she can't do it.
Quite unusual for her.
We sat down down with her textbook. I read through her task 3 times thinking that I must be wrong as the task was absolute disaster for a kids mental health.
They are studying World War I (History Quest 5. CjFallon, pg 73)

There's an image of trench with soldiers and dead bodies.
Questions to answer:
- Why do you think dead soldiers have not yet been removed?
- Imagine it is Christmas Eve and you are a soldier in this trench. What are your thoughts and feelings?
- Imagine you are a mother or farther of a young soldier ... (see attachment)

Surely it is not an appropriate task for a nine-year-old or even for a primary student at all, is it? It is so much close to mental abuse of a minor.
How this can be an "approved curriculum" as school states?

All feedback welcome.
Textbook page attached.

byhookorbycrook

How is she using book 5 if she is nine?What class is she in?

_NY_

She's in fourth. It is actually combined 4-5 class thus the textbook is 5.

byhookorbycrook

She's a little young to face the War, but it is on the primary curriculum,,along with things like the great famine etc. so schools do have to cover the DES curriculum.

E.T.

World War I is definitely on the 5th class curriculum, what I've posted below in italics is directly from it. (http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Primary_School_Curriculum/Social_Environmental_and_Scientific_Education_SESE_/History/History_Curriculum/Fifth_and_sixth_classes/Content/)

Strand: Eras of change and conflict
Strand unit: A selection from:

The Renaissance
The Reformation
Traders, explorers and colonisers from Europe
The Great Famine
The Industrial Revolution
Changing land ownership in
19th-century Ireland
Changing roles of women in 19th and 20th centuries
World War I
Modern Ireland

The child should be enabled to

become familiar with aspects of these periods
ways in which the everyday lives of people changed
changes and conflicts in people’s thoughts and beliefs
reasons for these changes and conflicts
people, organisations and events involved in bringing about change or adapting to
change
local evidence of changes and conflicts
the reactions of people to changes and issues which they experienced
the long-term effect of changes and conflicts
examine and become familiar with evidence which informs us about the lives of people
in the periods studied, their thoughts and concerns, especially evidence which may
be found locally
record the place of peoples and events on appropriate timelines.

Fourth class is definitely very young for the maturity required for this type of questioning, and nine at this stage of the year is quite young for fourth class, and very young for this type of higher order questioning.

I'd definitely let the teacher know how upset your daughter was about this, just for her own sake, and for future reference for other children, especially if a mixed class is the norm in her school (as it is in many schools).

As for mental abuse, I don't think there's anything wrong with the topic, for fifth class. It's a bit hazy for fourth. Stories from the lives of people in the past is a strand unit for fourth class.

Nine is quite young for halfway through fourth class, a lot children would be turning ten or have turned ten by this stage in fourth, so some of the topics on the curriculum, which are aimed at the slightly older age bracket might be too mature for a nine year old.

Just saw the attached photo - have to say I was expecting way worse from the OP's post. Even though it's quite detached and hard to make out, I do think that together with the attached questions, it is a bit too much for fourth class.

_NY_

E.T. thank you very much for such a detailed answer.

I wouldn't have been that much concerned if the topic stayed at the facts level.
I am very concerned at this effort to connect a child emotionally to the warfare.
"Imagine yourself.." I'm not comfortable imagining myself in the abovementioned situation even at my age. What is the purpose of this exercise? For a child with vivid imagination it can be a disaster leading to nightmares, bedwetting etc.

Thank you again.

ShamoBuc

_NY_ wrote: »

Have you ever read through your child's history book?

I was just blown away by yesterday's homework.
My nine-year-old came to me all in tears saying that she can't do it.
Quite unusual for her.
We sat down down with her textbook. I read through her task 3 times thinking that I must be wrong as the task was absolute disaster for a kids mental health.
They are studying World War I (History Quest 5. CjFallon, pg 73)

There's an image of trench with soldiers and dead bodies.
Questions to answer:
- Why do you think dead soldiers have not yet been removed?
- Imagine it is Christmas Eve and you are a soldier in this trench. What are your thoughts and feelings?
- Imagine you are a mother or farther of a young soldier ... (see attachment)

Surely it is not an appropriate task for a nine-year-old or even for a primary student at all, is it? It is so much close to mental abuse of a minor.
How this can be an "approved curriculum" as school states?

All feedback welcome.
Textbook page attached.

The bits underlined ( for me ) show how much of an over reaction you are having regarding the homework. Mental health, mental abuse of a minor....a tad over the top.

As has been pointed out, it is on the Curriculum for 5th, life during WWII is there for 4th. That book - History Quest - is widely used and has been for a few years and I've not seen a reaction to it like yours.
When they study Pompeii and discuss how the people were covered in ash and their bodies were preserved in that state etc I think you should accept it for what it is, history.

ShamoBuc

_NY_ wrote: »

E.T. thank you very much for such a detailed answer.

I wouldn't have been that much concerned if the topic stayed at the facts level.
I am very concerned at this effort to connect a child emotionally to the warfare.
"Imagine yourself.." I'm not comfortable imagining myself in the abovementioned situation even at my age. What is the purpose of this exercise? For a child with vivid imagination it can be a disaster leading to nightmares, bedwetting etc.

Thank you again.

But as per the Skills and Concepts Development section of the History curriculum, a child is supposed to develop.....
Empathy

• imagine and discuss the feelings and motives of people in the past.

With that in mind, the questions are probably laid out to cover the above.

_NY_

No problem with empathy at all.
As per curriculum online:
Empathy

• imagine and discuss the feelings and motives of people in the past
• discuss how an event in the past may have been perceived by those who participated in it.

Not a word of putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

Word it as: "DO you think he/they felt this and that?" That's a history question.
"Imagine yourself in a trench full of corpses on Xmas Eve and describe your feelings" is well over the top.

Don't you think so? Where is this thin border and who defines what wording is appropriate and what not?
Would appreciate the answer.

ShamoBuc

_NY_ wrote: »

No problem with empathy at all.
As per curriculum online:
Empathy

• imagine and discuss the feelings and motives of people in the past
• discuss how an event in the past may have been perceived by those who participated in it.

Not a word of putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

Word it as: "DO you think he/they felt this and that?" That's a history question.
"Imagine yourself in a trench full of corpses on Xmas Eve and describe your feelings" is well over the top.

Don't you think so? Where is this thin border and who defines what wording is appropriate and what not?
Would appreciate the answer.

To imagine the feelings of a soldier in a trench....you would imagine you were there.... that the point.

Imagine how Gerrard felt scoring the winner in the FA cup final....you would imagine scoring it yourself.... putting yourself in their shoes....it does tend to help to use your imagination in such circumstanes.

"DO you think he/they felt this and that?" - using scaffolding type questions like this, can be used ( if necessary ). But sometimes it's better to see what children can come up with themselves without that aid.

I don't see what is wrong with the wording of the questions? They are specifically tailored to try to aid the covering of certain sections of the curriculum....and you know who wrote that ( the answer you were looking for)

D4RK ONION

ShamoBuc wrote: »

As has been pointed out, it is on the Curriculum for 5th, life during WWII is there for 4th. That book - History Quest - is widely used and has been for a few years and I've not seen a reaction to it like yours.

That's the point though, it's a 5th class book, for a young fourth class child. The book is not aimed at her, and the material is a little too much for her. I think "Mental abuse" is a bit far, but certainly the teacher should probably only have covered WW1 with the 5th class children, if that was at all possible.

ShamoBuc

D4RK ONION wrote: »

That's the point though, it's a 5th class book, for a young fourth class child. The book is not aimed at her, and the material is a little too much for her. I think "Mental abuse" is a bit far, but certainly the teacher should probably only have covered WW1 with the 5th class children, if that was at all possible.

I see your point but would the child have the same reaction a year later when they were in 5th? Would they really have matured so much as to not to be in tears at the thought? It's hard to say.
Also the op was even thinking it would probably not be suitable for a child in the latter stages of 6th, which in my view is a tad ridiculous.

_NY_ wrote: »

Surely it is not an appropriate task for a nine-year-old or even for a primary student at all, is it? It is so much close to mental abuse of a minor.
How this can be an "approved curriculum" as school states?
.

_NY_

Thank you for all your insights.

I don't want my kids to even try and imagine themselves in those trenches.
We all know that those guys returning from war scenes were all severely psycologically traumatised. Why one would look for forcing children to empathise with them? Aren't there better ways?
What will be the next step in building up that empathy? Digging trenches in the school backyard to help kids feel it better?
I can think of a hundred plus one positive tasks on this topic, to encourage kids to think how they could have improved the situation in the trenches including innovative ones. Why victimise kids from the early years? Why force them to associate themselves with warfare?

ShamoBuc, since you are a sports fan, have you ever imagined yourself not scoring the goal for your favourite player but being injured the way he is? When your bones cut through your muscles and excruciating pain strikes through all your body? Do you want to write an essay describing you emotions at that moment? What kind of thoughts it brings to you? That's the empathy they are looking for from kids. Why?

I consider (my personal private concerned parent opinion) that it is not a way to teach kids. Not with that level of details.

Thank you for all opinions.

ShamoBuc

_NY_ wrote: »

Thank you for all your insights.

I don't want my kids to even try and imagine themselves in those trenches.
We all know that those guys returning from war scenes were all severely psycologically traumatised. Why one would look for forcing children to empathise with them? Aren't there better ways?
What will be the next step in building up that empathy? Digging trenches in the school backyard to help kids feel it better?
I can think of a hundred plus one positive tasks on this topic, to encourage kids to think how they could have improved the situation in the trenches including innovative ones. Why victimise kids from the early years? Why force them to associate themselves with warfare?

ShamoBuc, since you are a sports fan, have you ever imagined yourself not scoring the goal for your favourite player but being injured the way he is? When your bones cut through your muscles and excruciating pain strikes through all your body? Do you want to write an essay describing you emotions at that moment? What kind of thoughts it brings to you? That's the empathy they are looking for from kids. Why?

I consider (my personal private concerned parent opinion) that it is not a way to teach kids. Not with that level of details.

Thank you for all opinions.

I'm not even sure where to start with the above.

I'll say it again, I think you are over reacting, but that's your opinion so fair enough.
My son has been going around shooting one of his vast array of guns since he was about 3 - I really hope I'm not victimising him. Many a time he shot me and I've laid down pretending to be dead.....I've scarred him for life:rolleyes:

I've spoken to kids who see players injure themselves on the TV. They relate the injury in an age dependant way. They would describe him being in pain, needing a stretcher and probably missing a certain amount of games. They would not talk like your first bolded comment ( nor would they be expected to), hence your second bolded comment is incorrect.


Maybe you should read through 6th class books ( and maybe even secondary school ones) and deal with any topic/set of questions that would cause you an equal amount of concern for the future and try dealing with it before the 'problem' arises. It might help you and your child in the furure.

Think I've shared my opinion enough here, slán.

Ayla

Out of fairness to the OP, I would not be happy with the school using warfare & the horrors of the trenches to try to "teach" empathy to my child, regardless of their age. What does asking questions like "how do you feel about being in a trench on xmas eve" really teach anyway? Huh? Are they just trying to suss out possibly sociopathic children by asking such rhetorial questions...like some child's really going to say, oh I think it'd be grand? :rolleyes:

I do not shield my children from the realities of the world - the see & hear news and we answer all of their questions in a forthright and honest way so they can try to understand. But I would be quite irrate at any school thinking they can show my 9 year old child a photo (admittedly not the worst image, but graphic enough) of an active trench and ask such pointed and insincere questions in the name of "teaching" them empathy.

jill_valentine

There's a lot of casual violence in modern entertainment media, and on the news. WWI and II are popular subjects for movies, videogames etc, and in many cases warfare is treated as something exciting and remote and depersonalised. Characters respawn, the hero walks off a bulletwound and saves the day, people on the news fight in places far away on poor quality satellite videos.

Your child will already undoubtedly have been exposed to some degree of all of those things. What this question is asking them to do is to think about the reality of war for the individuals involved. That's not necessarily a question of teaching empathy, IMHO, but of introducing a greater understanding of what actually happened. It's very easy to present history as a series of dates and casualty figures, but I think it's far more valuable to seat all of that in a humane context.

I think maybe 9 is a little too young to confront a child with a trench full of decomposing corpses, but I definitely see a value in the thinking behind it and I don't think it nearly qualifies as mental abuse.

_NY_

ShamoBuc wrote: »

My son has been going around shooting one of his vast array of guns since he was about 3 - I really hope I'm not victimising him. Many a time he shot me and I've laid down pretending to be dead.....I've scarred him for life:rolleyes:

Well, that explains a lot.
We live in the parallel universe and do not have guns at home.
We try to bring up kids in a non-violent manner, filter TV and games etc.

There's no point in arguing further as our and your kids are just brought up in a different way...

byhookorbycrook

If she had been sheltered in this way, it had probably been why the exercise had such an impact on her.

Ayla

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

If she had been sheltered in this way, it had probably been why the exercise had such an impact on her.

Sheltered??? What, is it now to be assumed that kids off all ages (and certainly by the age of 9) should have exposure to violence & see/try to understand the complexities of war? And by protecting them of that horror, now the OP is *sheltering* her child...as if that's a bad thing?!?!?!

What ever happened to the innocence of childhood? Violence & the horrific things people do to one another in the name of war does not need to be shown/shared or imposed upon young 9 year old minds.

If some parents choose to expose their children to violence (even "play" violence through toy guns, etc) that's their choice. But - please - don't make it a bad thing that the OP was chosing to allow their daughter a bit of childhood innocence by "sheltering" her from the horrors of war.

Mr.Wemmick

A nine year certainly does not have the maturity to deal with those questions as far as I am concerned. The questions imply that a nine year would be able to put him/herself in the position of a soldier and imagine how death/war feels.
If the soldiers themselves found the war harrowing, horrific and mentally destroying as adults, why on earth would you expose a younger child to to the gruesome horrors unless they have a maturity beyond their years to cope with the truth of war.

There are ways that a good History teacher can explain how awful war is and the effects on the soldiers without making a 9 year old dwell on the horrors. Sorry, but this is ridiculous!! Those questions require a detailed response and a certain degree of empathy thus belong to an older secondary school student who would not only have the maturity but a wider knowledge and experience to deal with realities of war in today's world and in the past.

Playing with guns by the way is exactly that "playing" which prepares a child to the realities ahead of them: what killing and death means.. and I do not think many young children think of death in the real sense of the word, that comes later when they have the maturity to cope with and understand the wider world around them.

byhookorbycrook

Much as we would wish it, we cannot avoid our children hearing/seeing things that we'd prefer they didn't. This little girl is young for her class, using an older class textbook and was upset by it.

Sooner or later, children will,sadly,need to be exposed to the harsh realities of life. The text book is in line with the DES curriculum,so the issue is not with the school ,but with the DES.

I remember learning Seamus Heaney's poem "Mid-term break" in 5th class,it was in one our Dept. of Ed. (as was then) approved texts too. It upset me a little,I can still recite it by heart "a foot for every year" but it was not mental abuse or torture,

Mr.Wemmick

Seamus Heaney's Mid term break is about sadness and loss which is very different to dead bodies brutally killed and left to rot in the battlefield.

I do not always have a great deal of respect for the powers that be with regard to curriculum development. Very often those that write and design curriculums have little experience in the classroom and are not sensitive to the developmental ages and pastoral needs of children. Fortunately though, most teachers worth their salt, will know immediately if a topic is disturbing to a class, or a child, and edit/water it down without losing the key points that need to be covered in the curriculum.

Seeing/hearing about death is one thing but being forced to understand it fully when you are not ready to is another thing entirely.

Beautiful poem, by the way, and what better way to teach a child about death than through the gentle, sad voice of Mr. Heaney.

thesimpsons

I've kept some copies and workbooks from when the kids were finished with them so I checked what 2 of mine wrote for those questions. They certainly weren't traumatised by the questions or images of dead bodies in trenches. One of my girls answered she'd have been missing her family back home, the warmth and comfort and nice food from home. she didn't write anything about the dead rotting bodies at all, I'd say it did't even occur to her to be honest. The boy on the other hand did have lots of gorey images of blood washing through the trenches but he wasn't traumatised by it either. I'd imagine the average 9/10 yr old wouldn't be mentally tortured in the least.

as an aside, I thought most schools kept the split classes as 1st/2nd, 3/4th, & 5/6th as the curriculum works more naturally with these splits.

_NY_

byhookorbycrook, I do not look at not having guns as toys as "sheltering" kids from something. It is a personal informed choice and we do our best to stream all the competitiveness into the sport field and it works really good. We do not have behavioral issues in the school (and I do have a great team of boys except the DD). We teach them that every life is precious and it's not funny to even pretend killing a living being.

Interesting news on toy-guns: one, two. I'd rather "shelter" my kids from the toys that lead to the consequences like that.

Ayla, Mr.Wemmick thank you for support. I've been in contact with Department of Education and NCCA. Hopefully I will be able to encourage them to review the curriculum on the subject in question.

Thank you all.

byhookorbycrook

I don't mean you should let children have guns, but you did say you screen her from many things. This is how you choose to parent and I do not suggest you change, but merely meant that it might have hit her harder than a child who had been more exposed to news programmes/newspapers on such things. I do not like to see any child upset or in distress,but I still think "abuse" is an overstatement.

ShamoBuc

thesimpsons wrote: »

I've kept some copies and workbooks from when the kids were finished with them so I checked what 2 of mine wrote for those questions. They certainly weren't traumatised by the questions or images of dead bodies in trenches. One of my girls answered she'd have been missing her family back home, the warmth and comfort and nice food from home. she didn't write anything about the dead rotting bodies at all, I'd say it did't even occur to her to be honest. The boy on the other hand did have lots of gorey images of blood washing through the trenches but he wasn't traumatised by it either. I'd imagine the average 9/10 yr old wouldn't be mentally tortured in the least.

as an aside, I thought most schools kept the split classes as 1st/2nd, 3/4th, & 5/6th as the curriculum works more naturally with these splits.

The underlined bit....I can see Lisa saying that.
The bolded piece.....I can certainly see Bart saying that:D

E.T.

thesimpsons wrote: »

as an aside, I thought most schools kept the split classes as 1st/2nd, 3/4th, & 5/6th as the curriculum works more naturally with these splits.

Most schools do try to keep the natural splits, but over the last few years the huge rise in pupil numbers and cuts in teacher numbers have meant awkward splits in a lot of schools. Very small schools would be in the situation of having 3 or 4 classes in the same room as their norm.

D4RK ONION

_NY_ wrote: »

Interesting news on toy-guns: one, two. I'd rather "shelter" my kids from the toys that lead to the consequences like that.

Just to quickly comment on this sensationalist linking, the "toy" guns mentioned in both these articles are replica pellet guns, not the kind of colourful obviously fake toy guns you would give to a child.

If you like I could probably find some articles and scientific studies which say that violent media can be good for children.

thesimpsons

ShamoBuc wrote: »

The underlined bit....I can see Lisa saying that.
The bolded piece.....I can certainly see Bart saying that:D

guess it shows you can't disown your own kids

Ayla

D4RK ONION wrote: »

If you like I could probably find some articles and scientific studies which say that violent media can be good for children.

Yeah, ok, I'd be interested in that, particuarly the "scientific studies" part.

D4RK ONION

Ayla wrote: »

Yeah, ok, I'd be interested in that, particuarly the "scientific studies" part.

I was merely trying to point out that there's an article to support every arguement out there on the net. Like so.

Libra1

I would be intetsted to hear how the other 4th class pupils reacted?

I think the language you are using is very strong, I'm not undermining your childs...

cathmackdee

why would she be too young for the war what happened is what happened you can't change it and it's a part of history and i learnt about it when i was 10

byhookorbycrook

Please don't drag up zombie threads. Locking.