Supplying the Bull !

thetiredfarmer

Hi all dairy farmers out there !
I would like your opinions on a problem I am going to encounter next year!
The dairy farmer I buy most of my calves from every year (till now) has picked out next years breeding bull from within his herd for mopping up after AI.
The problem is the bull is only heXfr and not even the best example I have ever seen.I was thinking of buying a quality bull and placing him with the farmer to use as he sees fit and when the bull needs moving on he returns to me.The hope is that we will continue our good relations long into both our futures and I will have a better class of bullock in the mean time.
Do you see any major problems or am I cracked?....His system suits my system and we rarely have sick calves or a cross word between us......So?

Bodacious

thetiredfarmer wrote: »

Hi all dairy farmers out there !
I would like your opinions on a problem I am going to encounter next year!
The dairy farmer I buy most of my calves from every year (till now) has picked out next years breeding bull from within his herd for mopping up after AI.
The problem is the bull is only heXfr and not even the best example I have ever seen.I was thinking of buying a quality bull and placing him with the farmer to use as he sees fit and when the bull needs moving on he returns to me.The hope is that we will continue our good relations long into both our futures and I will have a better class of bullock in the mean time.
Do you see any major problems or am I cracked?....His system suits my system and we rarely have sick calves or a cross word between us......So?

Will he use 100% Dairy AI and hence all the calves that you will be purchase be from the scrub bull he thinking of keeping? and how many calves would you usually buy from the man?

6480

thetiredfarmer wrote: »

Hi all dairy farmers out there !
I would like your opinions on a problem I am going to encounter next year!
The dairy farmer I buy most of my calves from every year (till now) has picked out next years breeding bull from within his herd for mopping up after AI.
The problem is the bull is only heXfr and not even the best example I have ever seen.I was thinking of buying a quality bull and placing him with the farmer to use as he sees fit and when the bull needs moving on he returns to me.The hope is that we will continue our good relations long into both our futures and I will have a better class of bullock in the mean time.
Do you see any major problems or am I cracked?....His system suits my system and we rarely have sick calves or a cross word between us......So?

i would nt like the idea of u buyin the bull , wat if he got hurted or died it can happen or who pays for him if he gets sick , u dont really know wat good or bad breeding the bull has that he has picked for next year ,

thetiredfarmer

Bodacious wrote: »

Will he use 100% Dairy AI and hence all the calves that you will be purchase be from the scrub bull he thinking of keeping? and how many calves would you usually buy from the man?

He uses AI on about 40 of his best cows and beef bull on the rest(60) I buy everything fr bulls and bwh heifers and bulls.

6480

thetiredfarmer wrote: »

He uses AI on about 40 of his best cows and beef bull on the rest(60) I buy everything fr bulls and bwh heifers and bulls.

its not up to u to tell him wat breed or kind of bull to run with his cows ,u must be getting good calves off him at small money

thetiredfarmer

6480 wrote: »

i would nt like the idea of u buyin the bull , wat if he got hurted or died it can happen or who pays for him if he gets sick , u dont really know wat good or bad breeding the bull has that he has picked for next year ,

thanks for throwing up the health /accident questions. I know the bull he will use is basically a fine boned fresian with a red coat and white hat and feck all around the rear quarters.

Farmer Pudsey

thetiredfarmer wrote: »

Hi all dairy farmers out there !
I would like your opinions on a problem I am going to encounter next year!
The dairy farmer I buy most of my calves from every year (till now) has picked out next years breeding bull from within his herd for mopping up after AI.
The problem is the bull is only heXfr and not even the best example I have ever seen.I was thinking of buying a quality bull and placing him with the farmer to use as he sees fit and when the bull needs moving on he returns to me.The hope is that we will continue our good relations long into both our futures and I will have a better class of bullock in the mean time.
Do you see any major problems or am I cracked?....His system suits my system and we rarely have sick calves or a cross word between us......So?

The reason he is useing a scrub bull this year is because of the price of breeding bulls he is like a lot of farmers they sold there breeding bull and cannot find a replacement at the right money go with it this year and encourage him to buy one next year you other solution is messy for all the reasons above

thetiredfarmer

6480 wrote: »

its not up to u to tell him wat breed or kind of bull to run with his cows ,u must be getting good calves off him at small money

Yea I am getting good calves from him and want that to continue!
He is the kinda guy who takes the handiest option and when he saw the red whitehead bull calf being born he decided that he would just use him instead of looking for anything any better.i know he will still want the good money for the whiteheads from this bull and I fear it may be the end of a very good set up for both of us.Thats why I was thinking along the lines of getting the bull for him.
As I asked earlier "Am I cracked"

Bodacious

thetiredfarmer wrote: »

He uses AI on about 40 of his best cows and beef bull on the rest(60) I buy everything fr bulls and bwh heifers and bulls.

thats alot of calves and would well justify input to the sire sidefrom yourside if necessary without upsetting the man of course

id try talking to him first about merits to you both of a good PB bull, maybe even an easy calving lim and perhaps even go halves on him but have whatever you agree clear to you bothas regards to selling him again/vets/should he break a leg etc

thetiredfarmer

Bodacious wrote: »

thats alot of calves and would well justify input to the sire sidefrom yourside if necessary without upsetting the man of course

id try talking to him first about merits to you both of a good PB bull, maybe even an easy calving lim and perhaps even go halves on him but have whatever you agree clear to you bothas regards to selling him again/vets/should he break a leg etc

Thanks Bodacious ,as i said he does tend to take the easiest option so my plan would be to give him the bull at my expense and he look after it in a normal fashion (breaking legs and sickness are a gamble I would be taking )I think with nice quality calves for approx. 3 years I would be reasonably compensated for my input.All of which would be totally discussed and fully agreed to both our satisfaction before pen would be put to paper! Non milking offspring play a very(very) small role in his operation and a very important role in mine!

Tipp Man

If you are buying the majority of his calves from him then i think it is a very good idea and you should at least discuss it with him - ye seem to have a good realtionship so what have you got to loose

I assume that you wouldn't be buying a double muscled Belgium blue or the like to go on the dairy cows

thetiredfarmer

Tipp Man wrote: »

If you are buying the majority of his calves from him then i think it is a very good idea and you should at least discuss it with him - ye seem to have a good realtionship so what have you got to loose

I assume that you wouldn't be buying a double muscled Belgium blue or the like to go on the dairy cows

No I would be happy with a Hereford,Lim or an Angus .Thanks.

JohnBoy

if you have a good working relationship with him then I think it'd be a great idea, he gets his AI on the cows he wants and you get a better calf at no real extra cost to him.

should be a win/win

thetiredfarmer

JohnBoy wrote: »

if you have a good working relationship with him then I think it'd be a great idea, he gets his AI on the cows he wants and you get a better calf at no real extra cost to him.

should be a win/win

That's the way I was looking at it too, but was just worried that I might be over looking something important aswell .

greysides

Go for it! It's a good answer to the situation you're in. Unconventional but commendable out-of-the-box thinking.

A couple of things to consider.

Calving difficulty has been mentioned.
What if the bull turns out nasty? Is he happy taking personal risk with a bull not of his chosing?
Disease. Ensure the bull you buy is clear of BVD, Johne's, Lepto and IBR. You don't want to introduce disease to his herd.................or your's.

yessam

greysides wrote: »

Go for it! It's a good answer to the situation you're in. Unconventional but commendable out-of-the-box thinking.

A couple of things to consider.

Calving difficulty has been mentioned.
What if the bull turns out nasty? Is he happy taking personal risk with a bull not of his chosing?
Disease. Ensure the bull you buy is clear of BVD, Johne's, Lepto and IBR. You don't want to introduce disease to his herd.................or your's.

I think you might have to register the animal to the heard the bull is running with to cover department regulations.
If you have an inspection, you would not want to be going to the neighbours farm to look for the bull.

PMU

you buy the bull and give him to the dairyman for the breeding season,then take him back for the rest of the year. run him with a few heifers and that will keep him quiet.

blue5000

Only problem I can see is if someone else starts offering him more money for his calves from your bull. You need to lock in some sort of agreement on price, what happens to the bull if he has to be sold or if he gets locked up with tb. It is a good idea, but there could be problems down the road.

thetiredfarmer

blue5000 wrote: »

Only problem I can see is if someone else starts offering him more money for his calves from your bull. You need to lock in some sort of agreement on price, what happens to the bull if he has to be sold or if he gets locked up with tb. It is a good idea, but there could be problems down the road.

Thanks blue ,I did think of agreeing a price guide based on similar style calves around the country,We have always tried to hit a price somewhere in the middle.If the bull proved troublesome well then he would just have to go to the factory as I hate the thaughts of having a dangerous animal anywhere around the farm.TB will be based on the luck of the draw as it would be no matter where the animal was kept.
I mentioned the idea to him yesterday and he was not for it or against it but will weigh it up and see how it might work out for him!

Bizzum

The difference between calves off a scrub bull X Freisan and off say a decent Lim bull X Freisan would be night and day. It's very shortsighted to be breeding rubbish, Spread the cost over 60 calves and in one year it's small money.