A Mere Mention of Abortion.

Feathers

amacachi wrote: »

Feathers wrote: »

Exactly, unless you're counting something like the morning-after pill, in which case, yes - I would presume you either support both or neither.

Well based on my erroneous post that makes no sense. If life beginning at conception is the reason to oppose abortion then preventing conception is perfectly in line with that.

I'm not sure why your post was erroneous..? When you say 'perfectly in line with that', do you mean contraception is along the same lines as abortion?

amacachi

Feathers wrote: »

I'm not sure why your post was erroneous..? When you say 'perfectly in line with that', do you mean contraception is along the same lines as abortion?

I thought that conception meant implantation rather than fertilisation. I'm blaming my biology teacher for that!

Basically being in favour of contraception and against abortion is perfectly logical if one believes life begins at conception.

Feathers

amacachi wrote: »

Feathers wrote: »

I'm not sure why your post was erroneous..? When you say 'perfectly in line with that', do you mean contraception is along the same lines as abortion?

I thought that conception meant implantation rather than fertilisation. I'm blaming my biology teacher for that!

Basically being in favour of contraception and against abortion is perfectly logical if one believes life begins at conception.

Ah, getcha. Yeah, I'd agree - apart from a few contraceptives, like the morning-after pill; although contraceptive is a misnomer here as they do prevent implantation rather than conception.

amacachi

Feathers wrote: »

Ah, getcha. Yeah, I'd agree - apart from a few contraceptives, like the morning-after pill; although contraceptive is a misnomer here as they do prevent implantation rather than conception.

Yeah 5 minutes of reading around shows that the terminology is thrown around a bit too loosely.

But yeah, my point is just that I don't see being OK or in favour of contraception as being at odds with being against abortion if the reason for being against abortion is the belief that life begins at conception.

Morag

All modern hormone based contraception (pill, patch, ius, implannon, nuva ring) works in 3 ways, prevent ovulation, thickens cerival mucus and thins the lining of the womb. If ovulations does occur and so does conception then the thinned lining of the womb will not allow the zygote to implant.

Those who think that life begins at conception see preventing the implant ion as abortion.
The morning after pill prevents implantation, medically and legally it does not cause an abortion but people who believe that life begins at conception think it does.

Any of those 'personhood' laws they are trying to pass in the usa, will try and protect from conception and as a result make the vast majority of contraception used by the majority of women illegal.

Feathers

Sharrow wrote: »

Any of those 'personhood' laws they are trying to pass in the usa, will try and protect from conception and as a result make the vast majority of contraception used by the majority of women illegal.

I won't attempt to sound knowledgeable about the huge variety of female contraceptives available, but if the laws are focused around conception, surely anything taken prior.to this wouldn't be covered?

Don't want to keep dragging the thread off topic though.

Morag

All hormonal contraception lists thinning of the womb lining as one of the ways it prevents pregnancy and that would be the issue if such laws were passed.

Morag

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/02/24/martha_plimpton_stop_undermining_women_s_health_with_personhood_amendments_and_ultrasound_laws.html

The Senate is slated to vote soon on legislation proposed by Sen. Roy Blunt (R-MO) that would make it legal for any insurer or employer to deny insurance coverage for any medical treatment or service to which it has a “moral” objection. Obviously, this legislation is designed with one goal in mind: To undermine the fundamental principle behind the Affordable Care Act––that all Americans deserve a basic standard of health care coverage. Senator Blunt was inspired by the fight two years ago over the birth control benefit as part of women’s health care packages. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops took issue with this provision of the act, even though the Obama administration had already put in place exemptions for religious institutions similar to those in effect in multiple states for years. The president further amended the benefit to the satisfaction of religiously affiliated institutions like the Catholic Health Association.

Still, the Republicans had found their ideal wedge issue. And now, they are going to run with it.

But notice who is getting the most heat: women. Once again, amazingly, a culture war over women’s health, specifically, their sexual health, has been ignited. Without any serious economic argument against the provisions in the ACA, “matters of conscience” becomes the rallying cry. And women, as always, make the best target. It's easier to lecture women on sexual morality than it is to explain why all Americans shouldn’t have comprehensive, fair, and equal health care coverage. And it’s easier to wage a campaign of dis-information about Planned Parenthood and the Girl Scouts than it is to bring jobs back to your state.

It’s long been accepted as fact that the availability of family planning services saves lives. Where women have access to these services, children and families are healthier, and society at large benefits. So the question becomes, what is it exactly about family planning that upsets so many conservatives?

Most of the time, when you ask a conservative, their answer doesn’t even attempt to address matters of public health, or economics, or science, or even medicine. Instead, the moral concept of “consequences” gets thrown up. We are expected to believe that using birth control or the decision to have an abortion––for any reason––prevents us from learning the “consequences” of our actions, namely, of having sex. In other words, the argument goes, women are too ignorant, too thoughtless, and too confused to make decisions about their own bodies, so the state has an obligation to step in and teach them a moral lesson.

But Republicans are forgetting that women have been paying the consequences of life without family planning for thousands of years. And that’s why we need, and want, contraception. We have made that known in poll after poll in recent weeks, showing a huge majority favor of an insurance coverage mandate for birth control. Even a whopping 61 percent of Catholics support it, according to a recent New York Times/CBS News poll.

Women know the financial, social and physical costs of not having access to basic health care. And make no mistake, contraception is basic health care. Yet the all-male panel at Rep. Issa’s congressional hearing on birth control coverage last week, at which no woman who disagreed with him was permitted to speak, exposed the persistent belief that women simply do not know what is best for them and are not qualified to comment.

But it doesn’t stop at just keeping women from speaking.

In several states, “ultrasound laws,” which clearly violate the constitutional ban on imposing an “undue burden” on abortion rights, are being forced on women regardless of their medical necessity. These laws carry only one purpose, and that is to humiliate and emotionally manipulate women who seek an abortion.

Various so-called "personhood amendments" which could effectively outlaw hormonal birth control and all abortion, period, are shown to be wildly unpopular when put to a statewide vote. Such laws were rejected by huge margins by voters in Colorado and Mississippi. In Virginia the senate has decided to shelve similar legislation, no doubt due to the tremendous public pressure they’ve received from outraged citizens who are starting to get a clearer picture of just how far their lawmakers are willing to go to curtail their rights. Yet numerous other state legislatures are moving forward with forcing women to take a back seat to their biology.

It would appear that no matter how unpopular––or unconstitutional––these proposed laws are, there is a persistent and growing campaign in this country to undermine decades of progress for women. Women’s health and physical freedom are under attack in this country so that one party may try to win votes by staking a claim on the moral imperatives of the entire nation.

But we don’t live in caves anymore. And it has long been known that where women have the ability to control their own reproductive lives, standards of living rise, children are healthier, education levels rise, and women’s contributions to society increase. This is true in developing countries around the world, and in countries across Europe where low rates of teen pregnancy and infant mortality put ours to shame. When you keep women from exercising their right to physical self-determination, the actual consequences reveal themselves. It’s long past time we started focusing on the solutions that actually keep women healthy, instead of using basic aspects of women’s health as a tool of cultural, moral, and political control.

The idea of 'the consquences' and of pregnancy as punishment, is something which we have here in this country and the idea that women can't be trusted to make the best choices.

Gilldog

Sharrow wrote: »

The idea of 'the consquences' and of pregnancy as punishment, is something which we have here in this country and the idea that women can't be trusted to make the best choices.

Exactly, they can't stand the idea of a woman having an active sex life, without being 'punished' for her immoral behaviour. They won't be happy until the only sex is baby-making sex. It's pretty scary stuff.

And yet again its men making all the arguments and decisions for womens bodies. Even here on boards there are a few abortion threads on the go, and inevitably they descend into two or three male posters arguing the finer technicalities of when 'life begins'. It angers me that they seem to think in such black and white terms like this, when the reality for many young, vulnerable women is not so clear cut.

LegacyUser

Great sum up of the current state of abortion issues in Ireland here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW0N0w3Pllc

Morag

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/251fa6410b/women-s-health-experts-speak-out

hattoncracker

Sharrow wrote: »

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/251fa6410b/women-s-health-experts-speak-out

I was giggling away... Until I realised that in most countries, that's not fiction.

Morag

cant log in right now wrote: »

Great sum up of the current state of abortion issues in Ireland here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW0N0w3Pllc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW0N0w3Pllc

Excellent clip.

Maple

tatabubbly wrote: »

Abortion is hard and difficult enough mentally and physically without having to worry about travelling to another country to get it done. It should be legalised in Ireland and everybody should mind their own damn business about who gets it done and why.

I think this sums up the abortion debate for me.

For me, I find it very hard to separate my emotions when this topic comes up because to be a mother is one of my greatest wishes. I react emotionally because abortion and the necessity for it disturbs me to my very core. I would absolutely hate to be in the position whereby I had to make the decision to abort, it would break me.

But were I in that position whereby I felt that this was the best choice for me at a particular time in my life, then I would do so. I would hope to find the strength within myself to do so. Because I do not believe that this is a decision that a woman makes lightly with nary a blink.

And it enrages me how this topic is treated in Ireland. We smugly congratulate ourselves as one of the last bastions in the world that champion the rights of the unborn child, while glibly ignoring the women in their thousands who have to travel in secrecy and shame in order to obtain an abortion.

These women are criminalised and shamed unnecessarily. Having to travel only adds to both the physical and emotional burden they carry.

It shames me as an Irish woman that we do this to the women in our society. So no, I would never judge another woman who has an abortion. Why would I?

LittleBook

Sharrow wrote: »

Any of those 'personhood' laws they are trying to pass in the usa, will try and protect from conception and as a result make the vast majority of contraception used by the majority of women illegal.

Kinda NSFW so posting the link rather than the pic:

If I wanted the government in my womb ...

LegacyUser

Written when I was trying to figure out if I would travel for an abortion, 20 years ago.



Choice.

Never had the possibility ever seemed real,
Until it was forced upon me, time and time again.
My mind still objected, loudly denying what
my body knew to be true, and so very real.

It was a topic often discussed;
If, only if, always if, God forbid it should happen.
Who would we, could we turn to; who could we trust.
Where there options, to us in the lives that we lead.
When the choice was made, could we survive and would we succeed.

Suddenly an outcast condemned either way
for "I've danced with the fiddler and no I must pay"
Religiously wronged, Morally corrupted,
Socially secluded, emotionally disrupted.

Life to be considered, It's potential or mine.
Is there a difference, they both so entwine.
Once choice there would be no denying,
The other inner turmoil and night spent crying.

Family, Social, Emotional and general dismay.
Or conscience and soul searching disarray.
To carry the choice out all the way through
No matter how afterwards people would react to you.

Public humiliation, shame, sympathy, disgrace:
To become one of them, a welfare case,
A number, a statistic, one who was caught,
Are all my life plans and ambitions to come to naught?



I did travel, it was hard and people's attitudes were a lot harsher then they are today.
Today women are talking, finally. I had a friend confide in me and she was surprised when
I told her that I too had travels and made that hard choice.

Gilldog

Sharrow wrote: »

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/251fa6410b/women-s-health-experts-speak-out

I too was laughing along (especially at the 'heehee...vaginas' bit) but then afterwards it made me sad and more than a little angry to think that this is the reality im most countries.

I agree with many posters here that the current situation is ridiculous, I think Maple said it better than I could;


And it enrages me how this topic is treated in Ireland. We smugly congratulate ourselves as one of the last bastions in the world that champion the rights of the unborn child, while glibly ignoring the women in their thousands who have to travel in secrecy and shame in order to obtain an abortion.

These women are criminalised and shamed unnecessarily. Having to travel only adds to both the physical and emotional burden they carry.

It shames me as an Irish woman that we do this to the women in our society. So no, I would never judge another woman who has an abortion. Why would I?


Im glad to see that many women have been able to tell their own stories on this thread, share their own experiences. I think its so important to be reminded of the real people behind the statistics.

I was actually thinking of starting a thread on LL where women who had experiences with abortion could come and tell their stories; the good, the bad, the heartbreaking...just to show others that they are not alone in this situation. However I fear that it would be railroaded by those who do not agree, or by those whose hateful words would taint it.

So I was so glad to read ont this thread a few brave women who told their stories. I would love to keep this thread going, as a reminder to the women out there who had to make the hard choice that there are many many others who support you. We may not shout as loud and the pro-lifers, but we are here and we will listen and try to understand.

hattoncracker

This has turned into what I could only have hoped for when I started it.. Im delighted that this has turned into a safe haven..

I have posted anonymously on this thread of my experience.. I didn't feel safe telling the truth under this username until other people made me feel less alone..

Me=Garciaanon..

I never shout loudly, it's just too painful.. But at least I don't feel as alone as I have done for the past 9 months..

Morag

The notion that there are no abortion carried out here is flat out wrong.
Abortion is the intervention to end a pregnancy.
A woman is considered pregnant when an embryo has implanted itself insider her.
Some time this happens before the embryo gets to the womb and this is know as an ectopic pregnancy.
These are very dangerous to the health of the woman and can result in her death.
So so protect her life, the pregnancy is ended, either an injection is given or surgery preformed to end the pregnancy.
Both of those medical actions are legal and both of those are ending a pregnancy and so are abortion.

Ireland has legal abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancies.
Ireland has legal abortion.

All that is being asked is that the scope for legal abortion in which the woman's life is in danger, be widened.

neuro-praxis

Sharrow wrote: »

The notion that there are no abortion carried out here is flat out wrong.
Abortion is the intervention to end a pregnancy.
A woman is considered pregnant when an embryo has implanted itself insider her.
Some time this happens before the embryo gets to the womb and this is know as an ectopic pregnancy.
These are very dangerous to the health of the woman and can result in her death.
So so protect her life, the pregnancy is ended, either an injection is given or surgery preformed to end the pregnancy.
Both of those medical actions are legal and both of those are ending a pregnancy and so are abortion.

Ireland has legal abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancies.
Ireland has legal abortion.

All that is being asked is that the scope for legal abortion in which the woman's life is in danger, be widened.

I agree with everything that you say. Except for the final line. That isn't all that's being asked.

herisson

I am Pro-Choice! im not against abortion!

i dont understand how people can be be so rude about those who have or are considering having an abortion! at the end of the day it is the womans/couples decision whether or not to have an abortion or not!

if one of my friends decided to get an abortion i would be there to support them no matter what!

i dont know if i would have an abortion i would certainly consider it
it will always be an option for me
im not ashamed to admit it!
im sure i would feel horrible afterwards but ill have to live with that and reassure myself that it was for the best!

well thats my 2 cents!

booboo88

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

I am completely intolerant of people wanting to have a control over what women do with their own bodies, yes.


His.

While I dont agree with people who spit in peoples faces, for no justifiable reason, I know where you're coming from as (Im not saying all) But alot of the people who want you to sign petition pro life, are very pushy and somewhat ignorant of your opinion.

MrStuffins wrote: »

When I was younger, my best friend and his girlfriend at the time found themselves in the situation where she was a few weeks pregnant and they were both young, dumb and unemployed. There was also other big reasons which I won't go into here. After A LOT of soul searching, they decided they couldn't have the child so decided to have an abortion.

So, they travelled, the abortion was performed, and they came back. it was a tough thing to go through but they kept it secret, from everybody. The only person who knew was me as I was his best mate and I was very very close to them as a couple as well. I was also there throughout the whole process of their decision as to what they should do.

So, after a while we're all out and about having a few drinks and the girl decided she needs to tell somebody. SO she tells her best mate.

Her reaction was incredible! This girl who had been her best mate since they were kids flipped out. She NEVER asked about the circumstances, she didn't care about her mate, it was like a switch was flipped and she started screaming calling her "A murdering bitch" etc. it was like she was pre-programmed to say "Murder" when she heard the word "Abortion". They actually never spoke again.

Some people will let their pre-conceived ideas about a certain subject ruin lifelong relationships! it's terrible

Now while I dont agree with her friends reaction, why the hell was she telling her while ye were "out and about having drinks"

That is not an appropriate time or place.

I am pro choice, I dont think its right for other people to decide for another unwanted, for the want of a better phrase, baby to be born into this world.

LegacyUser

i postd my story here and want to say thank you... tonight it made my heart a little lighter




thank you

Beesand

hattoncracker wrote: »

I'm just wondering, what would you say if you met someone who openly told you she had an abortion because she wasn't capable of raising a child and didn't want to give up her job, education, etc? Would you think she was a horrible person? Or would you be able to look past her actions and not judge her on it?

I would respect anyone with the guts to admit openly to an abortion because I think it's still a very taboo subject.

I would also respect her for being considerate enough to recognise that she's not suitable for/ ready for motherhood.

yellow hen

ligthentheload wrote: »

i postd my story here and want to say thank you... tonight it made my heart a little lighter




thank you

It's good to hear that a forum like this can help someone.

Gilldog

Giselle wrote: »

I've just read that the 'personhood' bill in Virginia, the one espousing the compulsory IV ultrasound, has fallen after the Governor, Bob McDonnell, withdrew his support.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/24/as-virginia-ultrasound-rule-fails-is-gop-seeing-reproductive-rights-backlash.html

“No person should be directed to undergo an invasive procedure by the state, without their consent, as a precondition to another medical procedure,” he said in a statement.

Unfortunately, it hasn't stopped them inforcing ultrasounds, how horrible.:mad:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/ultrasounds-made-mandatory-for-women-seeking-abortions-in-virginia-542701.html




Abdominal ultrasounds for women seeking abortions in Virginia will become mandatory starting on July 1 under a law signed by the US state's Republican governor.

The Bill signed into law by conservative Governor Bob McDonnell requires all abortion providers in the state to comply or pay a $2,500 (€1,897) fine for each violation.

It also requires patients living within 100 miles of the clinic where the abortion is performed to wait 24 hours after the ultrasound examination before having an abortion.

Seven US states have laws mandating some form of pre-abortion ultrasound exam.

Under the law, victims of rape or incest who reported the attacks to police are exempt from examination.

Women also must be offered the chance to view the ultrasound images, but not forced to see them, the law states.

The measure initially had sought to mandate a vaginally invasive form of an ultrasound, triggering a political outcry.

Critics said the measure is intended to foster guilt in women so they would not terminate a pregnancy.

eviltwin

As far as I know all women having abortions get ultrasounds as a matter of course. I did when I had one 3 yrs ago. It was dating / sizing scan. I didn't have to see it but afterwards I contacted the clinic and got a copy of the scan picture which helped.

I have lost friends over my abortion. I have been called a slut, murderer, told I don't deserve to be a mother....

Its horrible and serves no purpose after the fact. You can't undo it.

I wish there was more help and support for women like me, I am sick of being made to feel like a leper for doing this.

eviltwin

Okay, have just read the thread and it says it all that so many women will post their abortion stories under guest id's. That says it all. If you have to come onto a message board - which is faceless anyway - under another false name to tell your story is shocking...are we really that judgemental as a nation?

I was in my 30's, had already had a crisis pregnancy at 19 ( kept the baby ), was working, married, had my own home...I smugly thought I would never be touched by abortion. How wrong I was.

Abortion nearly killed me, I almost took my own life over it because the help I needed wasn't here. I knew I was one of many but I felt alone in every sense of the word. It took a long time and a lot of work to get the help I needed and it sickens me women go through this every day and are just abandoned.

Ladies you are NOT alone...far from it. There is a huge number of us who carry this around. We have been there, we know what its like, we don't judge. There is now a support group in Dublin for women who want/need to talk about it. Anyone who thinks they might be interested or benefit please pm me.

username123

garciaanon wrote: »

I had an abortion too. I waited til I was almost 12 weeks to make the decision so I could really really know whether it was the right thing for me or not. I used to get ill when stressed, and threw up a pill during exam time......

Its very rare that a post on boards.ie would actually move me to tears but this post has done it. hattoncracker/Garciaanon Im sorry that you had such a traumatic experience.

Im a nearly 40 year old married woman and I do not want to have children. Either does my husband. I have always been pro choice about abortion.

Thanks to the women on this thread who have shared both their points of view and their experiences.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

As far as I know all women having abortions get ultrasounds as a matter of course. I did when I had one 3 yrs ago. It was dating / sizing scan. I didn't have to see it but afterwards I contacted the clinic and got a copy of the scan picture which helped.

I have lost friends over my abortion. I have been called a slut, murderer, told I don't deserve to be a mother....

Its horrible and serves no purpose after the fact. You can't undo it.

I wish there was more help and support for women like me, I am sick of being made to feel like a leper for doing this.

You arent any of those things but i am sure you know that yourself . Just someone faced with a difficult choice sorry for your pain
. I hope your at peace with yourself and your decision and to all the woman who have gone through this i dont know how hard this was for you . But you have my support and empathy .

LittleBook

From Wikipedia:

Wrongful birth is a legal cause of action in some common law countries in which the parents of a congenitally diseased child claim that their doctor failed to properly warn of their risk of conceiving or giving birth to a child with serious genetic or congenital abnormalities

The elements of a wrongful birth claim are

- the existence of a patient-doctor relationship between the defendant and the plaintiff;
- the doctor negligently failed to disclose to the prospective parents the risk of having a child with a genetic or congenital disease;
- the plaintiff suffered harm; and
- the doctor’s negligence caused that harm.

Anti Abortion Doctors Could Legally Lie in Arizona

Arizona senators have called for a law that will, if passed, eliminate malpractice suits that are brought on by families that believe doctors willingly withheld information about their unborn children. In instances across the state, some families have sued physicians after giving birth to children with disabilities and handicaps that they believe doctors were aware of before delivery. Some state residents have waged lawsuits based on allegations that physicians were not clear with crucial information which, had the parents been privy to, could have led them to consider abortion.

Parents have filed both “wrongful birth” and “wrongful life” medical malpractice lawsuits over allegations that physicians were not clear or did not properly inform expectant couples that the children in question, while still in the womb, risked complications after birth. Parents have in the past pursued legal action for doctors they allege did not disclose information that could have caused them to abort the child, but if the Arizona bill passes, doctors who lie to parents over the health of a fetus would be free from these suits.

State Senator Nancy Barto, a Republican Party member and sponsor of the bill ... adds, however, that doctors that “intentionally or knowingly” withhold information could still be brought to court for wrongdoings.

Arizone Senate Approves Bill Barring Wrongful Birth Suits Against Doctors

Gilldog

eviltwin wrote: »

Its horrible and serves no purpose after the fact. You can't undo it.

Its just another way for them to impose more guilt or shame on the woman getting the procedure.

I am a friend

hattoncracker wrote: »

how you would feel if someone you know had one and told you about it..

I dont agree with abortion. Two friends of mine told me they had abortions and while its their choice, I dont agree with that choice.. In saying that, its not my place to judge them or to say anything to them but I personally would have made a different choice to theirs.

I had my first baby lately and believe that he had a right to life from the second he was conceived. when i look at him now, I think how easily his life could have been erased by abortion, if I had chosen to (dunno if that makes sense) at the time.

Two of my friends are adopted and I wonder if times were different back when they were born, if they would be alive now... I think about the contributions they make to the human race and wonder how many other fabulous people are not walking the planet due to abortions...

I guess I think about the human being who will be missing from the planet as a result of the abortion and I dont feel I have the right, in my lifetime, to make the decision to cause that gap.

plenty of could-have-been people don't exist because a couple decided not to have sex that one night or whatever
there's loads of gaps
of all the reasons to be pro life, that doesn't really make any sense

I am a friend

bluewolf wrote: »

plenty of could-have-been people don't exist because a couple decided not to have sex that one night or whatever
there's loads of gaps
of all the reasons to be pro life, that doesn't really make any sense

But its my own reason...

cynder

bluewolf wrote: »

plenty of could-have-been people don't exist because a couple decided not to have sex that one night or whatever
there's loads of gaps
of all the reasons to be pro life, that doesn't really make any sense

Deciding not to have sex and terminating a pregnancy are totally different things.


*im not pro life!

username123

I am a friend wrote: »

I dont agree with abortion. Two friends of mine told me they had abortions and while its their choice, I dont agree with that choice.. In saying that, its not my place to judge them or to say anything to them but I personally would have made a different choice to theirs.

When I read something like this it makes me think there are really 3 views on abortion.

Theres pro choice.
Theres personal pro life (which is illustrated above)
Theres pro life for all - which in my opinion forces the beliefs of one or some onto all regardless of their wishes.

I respect anyones individual opinion but it does my head in that in this country my choice to have an abortion is prevented by people who wish to impose their own morality on me.

I am a friend wrote: »

I guess I think about the human being who will be missing from the planet as a result of the abortion and I dont feel I have the right, in my lifetime, to make the decision to cause that gap.

I dont think that this is a invalid reason. I can think of plenty of reasons why a person who might have existed might not exist before or after conception or indeed before or after birth, but it doesnt make it any less of a reason.

However, I feel that I do have the right to make that decision, if its my body thats the vessel being used to fill that gap.

grindelwald

grindelwald wrote: »

Deciding not to have sex and terminating a pregnancy are totally different things.


*im not pro life!

I didn't say they weren't

username123

username123 wrote: »

Theres pro choice.
Theres personal pro life (which is illustrated above)
Theres pro life for all - which in my opinion forces the beliefs of one or some onto all regardless of their wishes.

I respect anyones individual opinion but it does my head in that in this country my choice to have an abortion is prevented by people who wish to impose their own morality on me.

See I would think the opposite. I don't get it when pro-lifers are ok with other people being pro-choice.

If you're pro-choice, then by definition you're free to let everyone think/choose how they want to think/choose for themselves. So it makes sense that you don't really concern yourself with other people's opinions.
If you're pro-life, you see abortion as murder. Surely it makes more sense for a pro-lifer to want to stop murders going on? I can't understand how someone could see abortion as murder but think that it's ok for other people to do it. I don't force my ideas on other people because I'm pro-choice, but I'm only pro-choice (as is the reason for most people I know who are pro-choice) because I don't see it as murder - I don't think it's wrong.

So I just don't get pro-life people who are ok with other people being pro-choice.

Malari

But people who are personally pro-life only ARE pro-choice. That's what it means. Pro letting people make their own decisions, whatever they may be.

eviltwin

There will always be people who believe their views should be forced on everyone. Hopefully most people are mature and objective enough to know that their choices in life may not always be the right ones or even possible ones for others and that as such other options should be available.

I think its also relevant that a lot of those people have never had a crisis pregnancy and therefore don't really know how they would feel and as a result what they would do.

confusticated

true-or-false wrote: »

See I would think the opposite. I don't get it when pro-lifers are ok with other people being pro-choice.

If you're pro-choice, then by definition you're free to let everyone think/choose how they want to think/choose for themselves. So it makes sense that you don't really concern yourself with other people's opinions.
If you're pro-life, you see abortion as murder. Surely it makes more sense for a pro-lifer to want to stop murders going on? I can't understand how someone could see abortion as murder but think that it's ok for other people to do it. I don't force my ideas on other people because I'm pro-choice, but I'm only pro-choice (as is the reason for most people I know who are pro-choice) because I don't see it as murder - I don't think it's wrong.

So I just don't get pro-life people who are ok with other people being pro-choice.

I think the "personal pro-lifers" are maybe people who couldn't face an abortion themselves, but wouldn't stop someone else having one? I'd probably count myself under that category, but having said that I've never been faced with the decision.

Not wanting to have an abortion or just not being able to have one doesn't necessarily mean someone sees it as murder.

username123

confusticated wrote: »

I think the "personal pro-lifers" are maybe people who couldn't face an abortion themselves, but wouldn't stop someone else having one? I'd probably count myself under that category, but having said that I've never been faced with the decision.

Not wanting to have an abortion or just not being able to have one doesn't necessarily mean someone sees it as murder.

Yes, thats what I meant by the term anyway.

I understand that other people see that as pro choice - which it technically is, but as stated above just because someone wouldnt have one themselves doesnt mean they see it as murder. They have a different viewpoint to both standard pro choice and standard pro life.

Im only entertaining the notion that positions on the subject range beyond the standard pro choice Vs pro life. Its more complex than that I think.

We do have legal abortion in Ireland for particular situations, meaning that the legal position is not strictly pro life either.

newport2

true-or-false wrote: »

See I would think the opposite. I don't get it when pro-lifers are ok with other people being pro-choice.

...........

So I just don't get pro-life people who are ok with other people being pro-choice.

Why not?

I'm not comfortable with abortion, but I appreciate that is just my opinion and should not be forced upon other people who disagree, therefore I would be pro-choice.

Just because you don't agree with something or think it's wrong does not necessarily make you want to impose the same view on everyone else irregardless of what they think. You can have your own view on things and still respect other people's views.

gcgirl

newport2 wrote: »

true-or-false wrote: »

See I would think the opposite. I don't get it when pro-lifers are ok with other people being pro-choice.

...........

So I just don't get pro-life people who are ok with other people being pro-choice.

Why not?

I'm not comfortable with abortion, but I appreciate that is just my opinion and should not be forced upon other people who disagree, therefore I would be pro-choice.

Just because you don't agree with something or think it's wrong does not necessarily make you want to impose the same view on everyone else irregardless of what they think. You can have your own view on things and still respect other people's views.

Plus a million there

Zulu

eviltwin wrote: »

There will always be people who believe their views should be forced on everyone.

Thankfully! And better still, an open democracy enables us to force our beliefs on others. It's one of the most important points of democracy.

newport2 wrote: »

..I appreciate that is just my opinion and should not be forced upon other people who disagree

You are entitled to you opinion, and you shouldn't be afraid to voice it. More to the point, if you believe something, you should be proud to fight for it. Frankly it's your civic duty.
In a democracy your voice shouldn't be silenced.

Morag

I wonder how many people would be brave enough to go on a pro choice march?
There have been two prolilfe marches in the last 12 months, the numbers they have get published in the press with photos(usually of kids dragged along) until we get close to the same numbers of people out on the street showing support the notion that there are more pro life people then pro choice people will remain.

tiny_penguin

Sharrow wrote: »

I wonder how many people would be brave enough to go on a pro choice march?
There have been two prolilfe marches in the last 12 months, the numbers they have get published in the press with photos(usually of kids dragged along) until we get close to the same numbers of people out on the street showing support the notion that there are more pro life people then pro choice people will remain.

It really bothers me in any protest but especially one like this where such graphic images are used, that people feel it is inappropriate to bring their young children along and expose them to this sort of thing. Also to have images like this on display in public places where children are likely to be. The images are not suitable for small children.

Also the children being forced to take part in the protest are usually not old enough to really understand the issue, and although their parents may have these strong opinions it is not fair to force them onto their children. And IMHO they are just brought along for shock value and to up numbers.

Morag

And to try and imply that people who are pro choice are anti children and anti family.

Giselle

Sharrow wrote: »

And to try and imply that people who are pro choice are anti children and anti family.

This is why so many people who have serious issues with abortion are reluctant to voice it loudly. Nobody wants to be lumped in with a band of sanctimonious types with photos of dismembered foetus's saying decades of the rosary in public.

I find the subject of abortion very upsetting. More so as pregnancy progresses. Peoples views are very polarised and anti-abortion views usually wind up being labelled with some unflattering stereotype as a knuckle dragging cavewoman who wants to deny people the freedom to enjoy or have domain over their own bodies. Often (not on this thread) the insinuation that you lack understanding or intelligence is made if you aren't liberally pro-choice.

None of that is true of me. Until I definitively know the moment when human life becomes a human being, I will always have conflicting view. I know only one thing for absolute certain. I could not, and would not, have an abortion myself.

That does not mean I condemn those who have abortions, or that I think the present situation is fair. It doesn't even mean that I think abortion is definitively wrong. If at some point, science tells me that the spark of life at conception, or implantation, or seven or twelve weeks is not a human being, doesn't dream, doesn't feel, doesn't deserve the label of humanity, then I could conceivably decide that abortion prior to that moment is acceptable.

But for now, with what I know for sure, my opinion of abortion is that its a human tragedy for all involved. Thats the mother, the father, the wider family, and the would-be baby.