Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

conor.hogan.2

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The one where you stated compulsory subects is more effective for students doing the leaving cert than optional subjects. Third time, now.

All, all, all irrelvant (point being made to Wibbs and many others as well as yourself, in fairness) because we're talking (AGAIN) about the leaving cert. Wether or not it's in decline, is an EU official language, has been on the increase since 19x doesn't matter. We are not talking about Irish as a language, we are talking about Irish as a subject on the leaving cert.

I stated compulsory subjects are "more effective"? Where?

Ok then on your last point. It is compulsory and the majority want it to stay that way. /thread

Wibbs

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

(1,656,790/4,588,252)*100 = 36% of people speak irish?! Pull the other one. :rolleyes: I'd put the figure more at 10% tops.

On the native speakers try going lower. From the page conor linked to:

"Whether all the 64,265 individuals registered by the 2006 census are native speakers of Irish is unsure (there will be some people living in the Gaeltacht but who did not grow up learning Irish, especially in the periphery of the areas designated by the government as Gaeltachtaí). If one substracts about a third, because the government exaggerates the size of Gaeltachtaí and because not everyone even in the core of the Gaeltacht areas grew up speaking Irish as a first language, then one reaches a figure of approximately 45,000, but not more than 50,000, for the native speakers of the Gaeltacht (recall that only 53,130 individuals in the entire country claimed to use Irish on a daily basis outside education). This represents just over 1% of the population of present-day Ireland.

In fact this figure may in itself be too optimistic. If one considers the numbers of persons in the Gaeltacht who use Irish on a daily basis outside of education – 17,687 – and compares it to the population of the entire state – 3,990,863 – then one reaches a percentage figure of 0.44%. Given that the number of active native speakers can scarcely be higher than that of those in the Gaeltacht who use Irish on a daily basis outside education, the percentage of native speakers in present-day Ireland would be between 0.4% and 0.5%, i.e. not more than 20,000 at the most. Given this alarmingly low figure, it is understandable that the statistics office and the government in general does not wish to be more accurate in this matter. "

conor.hogan.2

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

(1,656,790/4,588,252)*100 = 36% of people speak irish?! Pull the other one. :rolleyes: I'd put the figure more at 10% tops.

People who can speak Irish, native speakers and people who speak Irish are 3 different things.

We all know the number of native speakers is low and shrinking. Has been shrinking for a long time and continues to shrink.

Seachmall

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It is compulsory and the majority want it to stay that way.

None of which is relevant.

/thread

Are you conceding?

conor.hogan.2

CAPS, smilies and sarcasm.

The 3 stapes of pointless debate. People here are free to appeal to EU or International law if they feel rights are being impinged upon.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0209/irish.html
and
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77233469&postcount=5

It should be compulsory until the majority do not want it or the government decide to change it.

Seachmall

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

The 3 stapes of pointless debate.

This is the internet, people debate to debate, not to change the world.

Some valid points have been raised, if you can't address them at least try not to ignorantly dismiss them like a troll.

Iwasfrozen

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

People who can speak Irish, native speakers and people who speak Irish are 3 different things.

We all know the number of native speakers is low and shrinking. Has been shrinking for a long time and continues to shrink.

I was taking all of that into consideration. The number of native speaks is no where near 10%.

conor.hogan.2

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0209/irish.html
and
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77233469&postcount=5

It should be compulsory until the majority do not want it or the government decide to change it.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I was taking all of that into consideration. The number of native speaks is no where near 10%.

I agree, the numbers are inflated. Always have been. The point I was making is the number who are able to speak Irish has risen but also the decline of native speakers has continued to drop.

Iwasfrozen

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0209/irish.html
and
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77233469&postcount=5

It should be compulsory until the majority do not want it or the government decide to change it.

I don't agree. On a purely academic sense the wish of the majority cannot come before the rights of the minority. In this case the rights of the minority to control their own education.

And seriously? Come on. Look at the people who conducted that poll. Comhar na Muinteoirí Gaeilge? Yeah they won't be biased. It's not like their jobs depend on it or anything. :rolleyes:

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I agree, the numbers are inflated. Always have been. The point I was making is the number who are able to speak Irish has risen but also the decline of native speakers has continued to drop.

That's the thing though because we know the data is not accurate we cannot draw conclusions from it. Common sense though would tell you there were more irish speakers in the twenties then there are now. There may be more people claiming to speak it now but that's beyond the point.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I stated compulsory subjects are "more effective"? Where?

Ok then on your last point. It is compulsory and the majority want it to stay that way. /thread

Hmm... actually, you stated that Irish should remain compuslory, but then evaded my requests as to why for so long I forgot what I asked. In any case, you still haven't answer it other than to say ...

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It should be compulsory until the majority do not want it or the government decide to change it.

... which is one of the WORST worst possible reasons for maintinaing any course of action that is not giving a satisfactory result.

It also implies that if Ruari Quinn did decide to change it and make it optional, you would be okay with it.

Beyond that, what Senchmall said above about failing to counter valid arguments.

conor.hogan.2

I should back up my opinion?
How would I back up my opinion? My opinion is it should remain compulsory much like yours is to make it optional.

Why? I like Irish I can not back that up with any evidence.

What exactly do you want me to back up?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I should back up my opinion?
How would I back up my opinion? My opinion is it should remain compulsory much like yours is to make it optional.

Why? I like Irish I can not back that up with any evidence.

What exactly do you want me to back up?

Conor, read the ****ing thing and stop making me waste posts.

I asked why you think this. Based on what. I have made numerous argumentd as to why I feel optional is better. The student can tailor theior education to what the feel is more important for them. They can get more points studying seven subjects they are good at, if they have trouble with Irish, rather then six and one they don't fell competent with. More grades in courses they feel are relevant to what they want to do. All said and said and said again.

And ignored, becaue for you, it's more important that they show up and learn a cupla focal.

For the last time, why?

What are you so aganist a student who wants to make a different choice?

Now, before you hit the repy button actually read what I have written again and then answer the two questions in bold.

conor.hogan.2

Students have choice. Just not 100% choice.

If a student is not good at languages or has a learning disability they can get an exemption. If they love languages they can do Irish, English, French and German.

Seachmall

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Students have choice. Just not 100% choice.

In relation to Irish they have no (0%) choice, which is the point of the thread.

If a student is not good at languages or has a learning disability they can get an exemption. If they love languages they can do Irish, English, French and German.

And if they don't love languages (more specifically Irish) ...?

conor.hogan.2

Seachmall wrote: »

In relation to Irish they have no (0%) choice, which is the point of the thread.

And if they don't love languages (more specifically Irish) ...?

If they have an actual reason they can get an exemption, otherwise you are right they currently have 0% choice.

If they don't like Irish and they have no actual proper reason to not do it then they have to do it.

Hence me saying they do not have 100% choice. This is school not adult life.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Students have choice. Just not 100% choice.

If a student is not good at languages or has a learning disability they can get an exemption. If they love languages they can do Irish, English, French and German.

And if they don't love Irish and English they can choose to....

Anad how dows limiting their choice increase their chances of getting the course they want in univesity?

Seachmall

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

If they have an actual reason they can get an exemption, otherwise you are right they currently have 0% choice.

If they don't like Irish and they have no actual proper reason to not do it then they have to do it.

In this case you are defining what a "proper" or "actual" reason is.

One might suggest it is an arbitrary reason, not one based on rational argument, and a case of special pleading. Not something to base such important exams on.

conor.hogan.2

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

And if they don't love Irish and English they can choose to....

Anad how dows limiting their choice increase their chances of getting the course they want in univesity?

See above.

You do not get 100% choice in school or life. Students often are given a "choose 1 subject from column a,b,c and d option" for which subjects they choose in school because of fixed capacity classrooms, demand and trying to give them a broad education.

Getting to University is not a problem for anyone who does not like Irish you just have to pass it at OL then use your 6 other subjects to get your LC points.

Seachmall wrote: »

In this case you are defining what a "proper" or "actual" reason is.

One might suggest it is an arbitrary reason, not one based on rational argument, and a case of special pleading. Not something to base such important exams on.

No, the department of Education define the reasons for exemptions afaik.
As I said above you just have to do and pass Irish at OL.
You have 6 other subjects on which you can use to get your LC points.

Doing Irish does not affect a students ability to do as well as they can in the LC nor does it affect their ability to get their college course.

Dietmar Hamann

Should be compulsory as without learning Irish they may as well not be Irish. Its part of who we are. Without it we are nobody. Comes in handy when you are abroad and you want to slag other nationalities without them understanding!!

Seachmall

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

No, the department of Education define the reasons for exemptions afaik.

But we're not asking the Department of Education, we're asking you.

It's assumed that your involvement in the discussion means you are open to discuss it. Your points thus far supporting your position have been inadequate in that they've either been countered or exposed as fallacious.

As I said above you just have to do and pass Irish at OL.
You have 6 other subjects on which you can use to get your LC points.

Doing Irish does not affect a students ability to do as well as they can in the LC nor does it affect their ability to get their college course.

You also have to study it, which takes time from other subjects which puts your chances of getting your course in jeopardy.

If you don't study your teacher has the right to assign more homework or give you detention, which also takes time from other subjects.

It also adds unnecessary stress at an already stressful time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

See above.

You do not get 100% choice in school or life. Students often are given a "choose 1 subject from column a,b,c and d option" for which subjects they choose in school because of fixed capacity classrooms, demand and trying to give them a broad education.

Getting to University is not a problem for anyone who does not like Irish you just have to pass it at OL then use your 6 other subjects to get your LC points.



No, the department of Education define the reasons for exemptions afaik.
As I said above you just have to do and pass Irish at OL.
You have 6 other subjects on which you can use to get your LC points.

Doing Irish does not affect a students ability to do as well as they can in the LC nor does it affect their ability to get their college course.

I give up.

Your two best reasons are
1 - Because the populist govenremnt says so
2 - So students learn that they do not have a choice in life so screw them.

I'm out. You've answered my questions, but with attitudes like this, no wonder you have bored and talented students wasteing their time on the leaving cert.

Iwasfrozen

d_max wrote: »

Should be compulsory as without learning Irish they may as well not be Irish. Its part of who we are. Without it we are nobody. Comes in handy when you are abroad and you want to slag other nationalities without them understanding!!

No. It is part of who you are. Not we since obviously I don't agree with you. Are you calling all the irish people who can't speak irish nobodies? That'll make you popular...

So does pig latin. Quick make it mandatory!

conor.hogan.2

My opinion is you have to study Irish unless you get an exemption, otherwise you have no reason not to study it.

"but I don't like it" is not a valid reason imo.

If a student can not pass OL Irish without "jeopardizing" getting into their desired course then I would strongly say college is not for them. Take a look at the OL paper Des Bishop passed it with less time than a student studying it for 13 years has.

I don't know how long you have been out of education but Homework takes very little time away from a good student and it helps them pass the subject. A potential college student should have no problem doing 6 subjects very well and OL Irish to a pass level.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

no wonder you have bored and talented students wasteing their time on the leaving cert.

Yes very talented if they can not pass OL Irish after 14 years of study.

You are the one going against the status quo and your only reason is "choice" when I have stated many times they have choice in their other 5+ subjects.

Dietmar Hamann

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No. It is part of who you are. Not we since obviously I don't agree with you. Are you calling all the irish people who can't speak irish nobodies? That'll make you popular...

So does pig latin. Quick make it mandatory!

It is part of who WE are as it is the first official language of Ireland under article 8 of Bunreacht na hÉireann (www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf) if people stop studying it then as a result it will die out. As you need 8+ in a class to run the class for leaving cert in many schools. Some schools will not be able to offer Irish to the students if only one or two want to take it as a subject. Anyway the subject is a joke at the moment anybody could get a decent result in HL when you look at the amount of work there is. In the english course you have to learn nearly 3 times as much. Plus the aural simple.

It is also part of who we are as before any of us were born this is the language of our forefathers. Before the English language was in this country everybody spoke Irish. Meaning your ancestors spoke it:eek:

IloveConverse

Irish should continue to be compulsory as it's clearly part of who we are.

I recently read that Polish is now the second most spoken language in this country, while Irish falls to third. This stark fact should bring out a sense of urgency that we are losing the very language that is part of our culture, who we are. Instead it procures a sense of accomplishment- What will happen when we lose the Irish language?

So for those who rant about 'not needing Irish, it's a waste of time- can't speak it anywhere else anyways, hateee Irish so much'- The Census certainly brought out the real attitude towards losing our native tongue, that is an utter contrast to this.

Declan Lynch wrote in the last Sunday Independent about the lies portrayed in the Census- that '1.77 million people said that they were able to speak the Irish language'. Seems as if those who rant about the language being 'a waste of time', are somewhat secretly embarrassed about the downward spiral that Irish is caught in- and ultimately their standard of the language that made them who they are.

Gaeilge go deo!

kowloon

To sum up the argument of conor.hogan.2:

Because.

The argument used by parents when they couldn't be bothered answering a young child's questions.

Perhaps we should treat our Leaving Cert students with a little more respect.
Their Leaving Cert affects their future, anything that uses up time and effort clearly does affect study time for other subjects.

If no effort is required to pass ordinary level Irish perhaps students should take a LC Irish paper in transition year or the year before (the Junior Cert, as many are proposing). If they want to improve on this they can take it again in sixth year .

conor.hogan.2

The majority back compulsion.
The importance of the language. (historical and cultural to name just two)
More languages make it easier to learn more languages.
(You can study English, Irish, French and German if you want I know people who have done it the more the better)

None of these I have mentioned, I just said "because".

But the people against it have one argument and that is "100% choice" which as we all know is just simply not how school works.

hooradiation

IloveConverse wrote: »

Irish should continue to be compulsory as it's clearly part of who we are.

One could argue the same of the GAA.
Should that hobby be made compulsory too lest our 'Irishness' be diminished?

IloveConverse wrote: »

I recently read that Polish is now the second most spoken language in this country, while Irish falls to third. This stark fact should bring out a sense of urgency that we are losing the very language that is part of our culture, who we are. Instead it procures a sense of accomplishment- What will happen when we lose the Irish language?

Nothing, seeing as we'll all be able to communicate with eachother just fine using English.

IloveConverse wrote: »

So for those who rant about 'not needing Irish, it's a waste of time- can't speak it anywhere else anyways, hateee Irish so much'- The Census certainly brought out the real attitude towards losing our native tongue, that is an utter contrast to this.

The real attitude is that when it comes to the state of the Irish language we're pathological liars?

IloveConverse wrote: »

Gaeilge go deo!

Gaeilge can go die in a fucking ditch for all I care.

kowloon

IloveConverse wrote: »

Irish should continue to be compulsory as it's clearly part of who we are.I recently read that Polish is now the second most spoken language in this country, while Irish falls to third. This stark fact should bring out a sense of urgency that we are losing the very language that is part of our culture, who we are. Instead it procures a sense of accomplishment- What will happen when we lose the Irish language?

Not everyone feels that way. Who someone is is their own concern, not something for the arrogant to dictate.

Many of those Polish people are now citizens. Does that worry you? If you want to take the citizenship as a whole, Polish is very much a part of 'our' culture.

Eoin_

a few things

1) Teaching: The entire way irish is taught should be changed. I entered secondary level education with no french and 8 years of irish. By third year i was already more competent in french. Something is seiously wrong with the way irish is taught. for starters they need to stop presuming that everyone has the same level (or any level) of irish entering secondary and start with the basics.

2) Teachers: Teachers are being removed from people that really need them, yet C.S.P.E. is still a thing.... why is this happening! It is a useless subject. Leave Irish for now, at least until we get our priorities straight.

3) Culture: To those that say that Irish is an essential part of our culture, I would like to suggest that it is not the only part of it. Instead of forcing the thousands of students who are in pass to study a unuseable level of irish, why cant they learn another factor of irish culture like music or dancing. These things could be much more useful than the language since music, for example, can be appriciated by, enjoyed by and communicated to everyone in the world, regardless of their academic ability or formal irish education.

fkt

IloveConverse wrote: »

So for those who rant about 'not needing Irish, it's a waste of time- can't speak it anywhere else anyways, hateee Irish so much'- The Census certainly brought out the real attitude towards losing our native tongue, that is an utter contrast to this.

The majority of people cannot speak it effectively in a way where they can have a converasation in it. I don't have statistical evidence for this, but lets's use our common sense. It's pretty evident.

Even if everyone of us could speak it - We don't use it everyday. Therefore, why should the taxpayer fund it? I have no problem if someone likes Irish - that's your personal choice, the same way I like football and holidays - I don't expect the taxpayer to pay for my holidays - because it does not benefit wider society.

Unfortnately, I think the majority of people have fear of accepting that their pipe dream of everyone of us using Irish everyday will never be reality and are afraid to move on. It's really sad, it's holding the country back

kowloon

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

None of these I have mentioned, I just said "because".

But the people against it have one argument and that is "100% choice" which as we all know is just simply not how school works.

You do seem to argue that people have to do Irish because that's the way it is, tough. Hence my summary of your argument in a single word. A word lazy parents use when their children ask for answers.

Choice in the Leaving Cert was my argument, not choice in all school.

conor.hogan.2

kowloon wrote: »

Choice in the Leaving Cert was my argument, not choice in all school.

Choosing 5+ of your subjects is not choice enough? You do not have to like or do well in Irish you just have to pass it at OL.

You have a lot of choice. I did not like Poetry but it had to be done in school. It may be easy to ridicule but this is school so "because" is a legitimate reason.

IloveConverse

hooradiation wrote: »

One could argue the same of the GAA.
Should that hobby be made compulsory too lest our 'Irishness' be diminished?

Language is obviously a vital tool. 'Language is not only a vehicle for the expression of thoughts, perceptions, sentiments, and values characteristic of a community; it also represents a fundamental expression of social identity.' The earliest forms of Irish can be seen on ogham stones from as early as the 4th century, conveying the fact that our language originated during prehistoric times and as such is much more substantial- Whilst GAA is a pastime on the other hand. The GAA was founded in 1884.


Nothing, seeing as we'll all be able to communicate with eachother just fine using English.

Yes of course.We could do this and let our language die. Most Germans can speak their own native tongue and English at the same time just fine- Why don't we see them trying the banish the German language from the Abitur (LC)? We should be able to do the same with Gaeilge and English. We need to keep Irish as it's part of our culture.



The real attitude is that when it comes to the state of the Irish language we're pathological liars?

' Pathological Liar- A person who tells lies frequently, with no rational motive for doing so.' The majority of 1.77 million people had a reason for doing so- it's embarrassment that we cannot speak our own language.

Iwasfrozen

d_max wrote: »

It is part of who WE are as it is the first official language of Ireland under article 8 of Bunreacht na hÉireann (www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf) if people stop studying it then as a result it will die out. As you need 8+ in a class to run the class for leaving cert in many schools. Some schools will not be able to offer Irish to the students if only one or two want to take it as a subject. Anyway the subject is a joke at the moment anybody could get a decent result in HL when you look at the amount of work there is. In the english course you have to learn nearly 3 times as much. Plus the aural simple.

It is also part of who we are as before any of us were born this is the language of our forefathers. Before the English language was in this country everybody spoke Irish. Meaning your ancestors spoke it:eek:

While I recognise it's legal position that does not in anyway affect my view of the language. You said it was a part of who we are. Since I don't agree with you it is not a part of who we are. It is a part of who you are.

And you say that if people are no longer compelled to study the language in secondary school after it will die out. Why? People will still study it just not as many. And it will still have the few thousand native and non native speakers it has now. The language will not die just because people who have no interest in studying it are allowed to choose not too. Besides the education system exists to serve the student not the other way around. If irish does die because no one wants to speak it then so be it. A language that cannot maintain itself deserves to die.

As for not everyone gettign to study irish. True if it is made optional then some schools will not be able to offer it but that's true of any optional subject. I wanted to do chemistry for my leaving but I couldn't because my school didn't offer it. That's not a argument for chemistry to be mandatory.

Irish is not simple! Maybe for a native speaker but irish students learn irish as a foreign language. Comparing it to english is stupid because that's our native language. You should be comparing it to the german or french papers. Of which irish is much more difficult.

As a parting I can do you one better then that. My grandfather was a fluent speaker. Non native he learned it in his later years. Changed his name and everything.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eoin_ wrote: »

a few things

1) Teaching: The entire way irish is taught should be changed. I entered secondary level education with no french and 8 years of irish. By third year i was already more competent in french. Something is seiously wrong with the way irish is taught. for starters they need to stop presuming that everyone has the same level (or any level) of irish entering secondary and start with the basics.

Not disagreeing with you there.

2) Teachers: Teachers are being removed from people that really need them, yet C.S.P.E. is still a thing.... why is this happening! It is a useless subject. Leave Irish for now, at least until we get our priorities straight.

Surely CSPE is one of the more practical elements of the education? I would prefer to see more politically, socially and civiclaly aware kids than people who have no idwea wat is going on.

You really can't call it "useless" and then say Irish is more important.

3) Culture: To those that say that Irish is an essential part of our culture, I would like to suggest that it is not the only part of it. Instead of forcing the thousands of students who are in pass to study a unuseable level of irish, why cant they learn another factor of irish culture like music or dancing. These things could be much more useful than the language since music, for example, can be appriciated by, enjoyed by and communicated to everyone in the world, regardless of their academic ability or formal irish education.

Fair point, I think most do. I plaed GAA and hurling as a kid (althought it was nothing to do with culture or bollox like that, it was because I enjoyed them).

kowloon

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Choosing 5+ of your subjects is not choice enough? You do not have to like or do well in Irish you just have to pass it at OL.

You have a lot of choice. I did not like Poetry but it had to be done in school. It may be easy to ridicule but this is school so "because" is a legitimate reason.

There should be no limit to choice until there is a legitimate reason. Once again, I'm not talking about all school.

Why is 'because' a legitimate reason? Because?

IloveConverse

kowloon wrote: »

Not everyone feels that way. Who someone is is their own concern, not something for the arrogant to dictate.

Many of those Polish people are now citizens. Does that worry you? If you want to take the citizenship as a whole, Polish is very much a part of 'our' culture.

Not at all. It's worrying that a language that's been with us since the 4th century is behind one that became prevalent in recent decades.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Choosing 5+ of your subjects is not choice enough? You do not have to like or do well in Irish you just have to pass it at OL.

You have a lot of choice. I did not like Poetry but it had to be done in school. It may be easy to ridicule but this is school so "because" is a legitimate reason.

Can I put that in my sig? Please?!

conor.hogan.2

kowloon wrote: »

Why is 'because' a legitimate reason? Because?

Because that is what successive governments and successive generations of voters have agreed upon making and keeping it compulsory.

The reason it was made compulsory in the first place was to prevent the language from dieing as it was in fast decline and the revival movement was good but not enough considering we got full independence (which was drawn out over many many years).

(Perhaps History should be made compulsory too?)

kowloon

IloveConverse wrote: »

Not at all. It's worrying that a language that's been with us since the 4th century is behind one that became prevalent in recent decades.

I honestly don't think it's at risk. The people keeping it alive are the people who speak it, those who study it by choice or those who use it as an artistic medium. People who don't want to study it at Leaving Cert contribute nothing to its survival and in many cases are set against it for life. Those extra two years achieve nothing positive for the language.

kowloon

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

(Perhaps History should be made compulsory too?)

I would love to see more people take an active interest in History, but I'm against forcing people to do it for the Leaving Cert when it's against their wishes.

conor.hogan.2

They would be more informed about the history of Ireland and the world if they did.

For example knowing why Irish was made compulsory in the first place.

Then common sense would show them that successive governments and voters have backed the decision to make and keep it compulsory. (democracy in action)

That is "why" and that is the reason behind the "because". The Department of Education says so with the backing of the Government and the majority of people.

kowloon

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

They would be more informed about the history of Ireland and the world if they did.

For example knowing why Irish was made compulsory in the first place.

It could be argued that it was driven by an urge to set us apart from the British, something we've surely grown out of, but I'll let you delve into the historiography yourself.

conor.hogan.2

kowloon wrote: »

It could be argued that it was driven by an urge to set us apart from the British, something we've surely grown out of, but I'll let you delve into the historiography yourself.

Irish has a lot in common with British languages like Scottish, Welsh, Manx etc but I suppose that depends on what you mean as British.

We have been speaking Irish for longer than any language similar to modern English has been spoken in Britain so distinguishing ourselves does not make much sense there.

Also we used Catholicism to "distinguish" ourselves, not Irish. The Welsh did more of that.

Wibbs

d_max wrote: »

Should be compulsory as without learning Irish they may as well not be Irish.

Really. There exists a long list of Irish people who have made a huge difference to this country and the world and weren't Irish speakers.

Its part of who we are.

The underlined is the operative word.

Without it we are nobody.

Riiight. I'll give you a quote from one of the true "fathers" of modern Ireland. A native Irish speaker too.

"Although the Irish language is connected with the many recollections that twine around the hearts of Irishmen, yet the superior utility of the English tongue, as the medium of all modern communication, is so great that I can witness without a sigh the gradual decline of the Irish language."
Daniel O'Connell.

Comes in handy when you are abroad and you want to slag other nationalities without them understanding!!

From the sublime to the ridick. :pac:

It is part of who WE are as it is the first official language of Ireland under article 8 of Bunreacht na hÉireann (www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf)

There's an awful lot of God in the same constitution. Indeed it sets out that many higher echelon members of our society must "swear an oath to almighty God". Many aspects of the same constitution held back Ireland on a couple of human rights points and were heavily influenced by the Catholic churches heirarchy. So using that document in defence of your position is debatable. If you're Church of Ireland or an atheist you're not really Irish either, even if you're fluent in the language.

if people stop studying it then as a result it will die out.

Debatable. Personally I'm not nearly as gung ho for this idea of it's extinction as both camps seem to be. In any event we can see that it was dying out as a wider Irish method of communication for a very long time. Daniel O'Connel noted it. Now one can argue for all sorts of reasons why this was happening. The English, the famine, mass emigration(inc. internally to the urban centres). All valid to one degree or other, but the result was the same. The IRISH people were voting with their feet and continued to do so.

Aside. One aspect I've always found interesting on this score was the use or lack of use of the language amongst the Irish diaspora. Take America for instance. Other immigrant populations retained their native tongues to some degree or other, even as extended slang. The Italian and Jewish and Chinese immigrants for example(and more recently the Hispanic folks). This didn't seem to happen with the Irish immigrants. Even more oddly as the majority would have come from those Irish speaking areas, many escaping the very famine that is rightfully implicated as having some effect(though it was declining beforehand). I could understand it if they were leaving from urban centres like say Dublin or Cork. There is some evidence IIRC of the first generation conversing as Gaelige, but by the time of the Celtic revival in the late 19th century native or fluent speakers were very thin on the ground to act as teachers(usually relying on recent emigres). In pretty much one generation the Irish language usage of the Irish American population dwindled to a tiny minority. The only other ones I can think of that were similar were Polish and German populations. Yet with the latter you still get some old German language among the isolated Amish. So while the Irish as a group in the US had many and varied influences on that nation, their language wasn't one of them. Odd

/Aside

It is also part of who we are as before any of us were born this is the language of our forefathers. Before the English language was in this country everybody spoke Irish. Meaning your ancestors spoke it:eek:

And the majority of those very same ancestors chose over time to stop speaking it. Including in countries where the hated engerlish had no sway.

IloveConverse wrote: »

Irish should continue to be compulsory as it's clearly part of who we were.

FYP. Well more were than are anyway.

Declan Lynch wrote in the last Sunday Independent about the lies portrayed in the Census- that '1.77 million people said that they were able to speak the Irish language'. Seems as if those who rant about the language being 'a waste of time', are somewhat secretly embarrassed about the downward spiral that Irish is caught in- and ultimately their standard of the language that made them who they are.

Or they feel culturally bullied and guilted into a sense of culture that doesn't actually belong to them anymore to any great degree beyond lip service?

Wibbs

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Then common sense would show them that successive governments and voters have backed the decision to make and keep it compulsory. (democracy in action)

Funny I never noticed a vote on keeping or extending compulsion in Irish. The only example I can think of even vaguely similar was the internal vote on relying exclusively on Irish in the civil service for internal procedure. Irish "lost". Governments have also reduced the Irish requirement in other areas since the 60's. So not quite as black and white as you make out.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

We have been speaking Irish for longer than any language similar to modern English has been spoken in Britain so distinguishing ourselves does not make much sense there.

The Irish you speak/are learning/grew up with is as different to old Irish as modern English is to Chaucer. Well nearly. IIRC it's more like Latin, has extra genders and pronunciations are different. Things like TH and GH are pronounced as you would pronounce them in modern English, not the soft sound of modern Irish. Hopefully Enkidu comes along soon, he's a charm and education on this stuff.

conor.hogan.2

Wibbs wrote: »

Funny I never noticed a vote on keeping or extending compulsion in Irish. The only example I can think of even vaguely similar was the internal vote on relying exclusively on Irish in the civil service for internal procedure. Irish "lost". Governments have also reduced the Irish requirement in other areas since the 60's. So not quite as black and white as you make out.

The Irish you speak/are learning/grew up with is as different to old Irish as modern English is to Chaucer. Well nearly. IIRC it's more like Latin, has extra genders and pronunciations are different. Things like TH and GH are pronounced as you would pronounce them in modern English, not the soft sound of modern Irish. Hopefully Enkidu comes along soon, he's a charm and education on this stuff.

Each government has backed its continual compulsion. FG made a fuss but dropped it. No it is not black and white. I have not made it out to be black and white. But it is a fact that the majority of people have and continue to back it as compulsory. People in general do not have a problem with it being compulsory except a minority.

Making Irish optional was not a major vocal point to any of the reforms in the education system of the past 70+ years.

I know the Irish I learned is different to 200 years ago and that is very different to Irish 1000 years ago. In fact my English and Irish is quite different than that of the early and mid 20th century even.

Irish was spoken here before the language which became modern English was spoken in Britain. That was my rebuttal to the silly comment on "distinguishing" ourselves.

Of course both languages went through tremendous changes in 1500+ years.

Enkidu

Wibbs wrote: »

Aside. One aspect I've always found interesting on this score was the use or lack of use of the language amongst the Irish diaspora. Take America for instance. Other immigrant populations retained their native tongues to some degree or other, even as extended slang. The Italian and Jewish and Chinese immigrants for example(and more recently the Hispanic folks). This didn't seem to happen with the Irish immigrants. Even more oddly as the majority would have come from those Irish speaking areas,

This is something I always wondered as well and so far I have never really seen a good explanation of why this never happened. The only place where it even sort of happened was in New York, where "An Gaodhal" the newspaper ran from 1881-1897 (it was printed irregular after that, finally shutting down in 1904, an American guy has recently restarted it in 2009 and in my opinion its far better than the officially funded stuff here.)

If I find out anymore I'll let you know.

conor.hogan.2

http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Irish-Invented-Slang-Counterpunch/dp/1904859607

Much like anything, it can be disputed.

Anyway the Irish more so retained Catholicism as part of their identity rather than language whereas the Welsh and Italians to name but two kept both in a sense.