Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

Irish Guitarist

Irish bored me to tears in school. To this day I can't construct a single Irish sentence.

I'm not sure if it should be compulsory or not but it should be more interesting or children will never want to learn it. Maybe dub some programmes that children would actually be interested in into Irish and play them to the class. South Park has already been dubbed into Irish by TG4. I saw a brief snippet of it once and the voices were remarkably similar to the real ones. Although I despise South Park I know a lot of teenagers like it so they would probably be more interested in watching that then reading a book.

billybudd

NakedNNettles wrote: »

Yeah it's part of our heritage but totally pointless, and I knew it was pointless all of 20 years ago when it was being forced down my neck.

Lets be honest 5 years in primary and 5 years in secondary, that's 10 years :eek: learning a friggin' language that's only spoken by a few pockets in Ireland. POINTLESS

Now here I am today having emigrated like many others, wishing that something useful had been taught which would have been more beneficial in my day to day life.

Nice moments aren't enough.

Yes lets be honest, if anything the english language was forced down your neck as it is not the official language of this country, you are capable of learning many languages, not everything one learns in education has to be beneficial to what you choose to do in life, you cannot blame education for your failings in life certainly it is an easy option for many people to take but its not the truthful one.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

billybudd wrote: »

Its part of my heritage and many others so therefore it cant be ''end of'', its an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background, was it not a nice moment last year when the queen of England spoke Irish in her speech?

No it isn't. I'm living poof that that statement is bull****.

I have even less interest in Frau Windsor than I do in the language.

deise go deo wrote: »

If you were 15 and wanted to stop learning it, then I would have no problem with that, my objection to making it optional is not because I have a personal interest in every individual student learning Irish, but rather because allowing the government to make Irish optional would in essence be allowing them to abdicate their responsibility to the proper promotion of the Irish Language once and for all.
Making Irish optional is a political cop out, I have no intention of allowing the government to take the easy way out, there are serious, long overdue reforms needed in the area of Irish language education, the government needs to tackle those issues before there can be any question of making Irish optional.

Making Irish optional now would be akin to kicking the stool out from under its feet, there needs to be other supports are in place for the language in the education system before that happens.

What we have here is a contraditcion, then. You either support or do not support someone else's choice to discontinue a lanuage. If, at 15, a student, having studied the sujects for several years, can not be trusted to make an informed decision about the continuation of them, there are graver problems with the education system than mere inclusion of said subjects. And, just to be clear, I sid subjects, not Irish.

Your objections are also hypocritcal because they directly affect the people mentioned above. The question is, do you trust the govenemnt to implement a better syllabus that well make students want to learn the languagae?

If yes, what's the problem?
If no, then you are condemning another generation to forced learning when they should really be mkaing that coice for themselves.

I'm not against the teaching of Irish, here. Very few are. But if you want to preserve the langauge, stop using schoolkids as pawns.

billybudd

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

No it isn't. I'm living poof that that statement is bull****.

I have even less interest in Frau Windsor than I do in the language.




What we have here is a contraditcion, then. You either support or do not support someone else's choice to discontinue a lanuage. If, at 15, a student, having studied the sujects for several years, can not be trusted to make an informed decision about the continuation of them, there are graver problems with the education system than mere inclusion of said subjects. And, just to be clear, I sid subjects, not Irish.

Your objections are also hypocritcal because they directly affect the people mentioned above. The question is, do you trust the govenemnt to implement a better syllabus that well make students want to learn the languagae?

If yes, what's the problem?
If no, then you are condemning another generation to forced learning when they should really be mkaing that coice for themselves.

If you want to preserve the langauge, fine. But stop using schoolkids as pawns.

Ironic.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

billybudd wrote: »

[/B]


Ironic.

In what way?

billybudd

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In what way?

Isnt that the argument in both views, using children as a tool to achieve either result? the argument to me is not whether it is useful or not but it should be protected and encouraged as a national treasure, i do not consider myself a mad nationalist but i do respect the history of the state and the Island and like the burren should be protected so should our heritage and our language was a big part of our heritage at one time or another.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

billybudd wrote: »

Isnt that the argument in both views, using children as a tool to achieve either result? the argument to me is not whether it is useful or not but it should be protected and encouraged as a national treasure, i do not consider myself a mad nationalist but i do respect the history of the state and the Island and like the burren should be protected so should our heritage and our language was a big part of our heritage at one time or another.

In what way am I using a student as a tool?

billybudd

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In what way am I using a student as a tool?

Then all children over a certain age should just be allowed to pick whatever subject they want? leaving behind for instance math for instance? should it be all out freedom of choice or should there be restrictions and if there is restrictions then why?

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

What we have here is a contraditcion, then. You either support or do not support someone else's choice to discontinue a lanuage. If, at 15, a student, having studied the sujects for several years, can not be trusted to make an informed decision about the continuation of them, there are graver problems with the education system than mere inclusion of said subjects. And, just to be clear, I sid subjects, not Irish.

Your objections are also hypocritcal because they directly affect the people mentioned above. The question is, do you trust the govenemnt to implement a better syllabus that well make students want to learn the languagae?

If yes, what's the problem?
If no, then you are condemning another generation to forced learning when they should really be mkaing that coice for themselves.

I'm not against the teaching of Irish, here. Very few are. But if you want to preserve the langauge, stop using schoolkids as pawns.

No contradiction really, Choice is fine, but I don't see it as a must have, I have never seen any research that suggests that compulsion is detremental to educational outcomes, therefore making subjects optional is not at the centre of the reforms I think are needed in the education system. I'm not against it per se, I just don't really see it as being a priority.

That said, If you as a 15 year old wanted to stop doing Irish, personally I have no problem with that, I really have no interest in forcing you to learn the language.
Making the subject optional is something that can come about and is not something that I am against in principle, but I do not see it as a one step process, there are many reforms than need to happen before then, its not that I want to force everyone to learn Irish, its that I favor a rational well tought out process that will achieve a balance between what you want, choice, and what I want, the Irish language to continue growing.

Wibbs

billybudd wrote: »

Its part of my heritage and many others so therefore it cant be ''end of'', its an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background,

Well thanks for making that assumption for all Irish people. Another pain in the mammaries I have with too many of the overly pro Irish language camp is this kind of assumption.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

billybudd wrote: »

Then all children over a certain age should just be allowed to pick whatever subject they want? leaving behind for instance math for instance? should it be all out freedom of choice or should there be restrictions and if there is restrictions then why?

Freedom of choice, full stop. Why should maths be copulsory? Assuming, of course, that a 15 year old has suffiecent skills for everyday usage.

deise go deo wrote: »

No contradiction really, Choice is fine, but I don't see it as a must have, I have never seen anything research that suggests that compulsion is detremental to educational outcomes, therefore making subjects optional is not at the centre of the reforms I think are needed in the education system. I'm not against it per se, I just don't really see it as being a priority.

Problem here is that you're not see the students making the decisions as real human beings. Do you really want to live in a society where choice is something you can live without...?!

Beyond that, like Billy, you seem to want me to prove something I haven't actually stated. I never said it was better, I just said that they should be trusted to pick what they think and feel is relevant.

That said, If you as a 15 year old wanted to stop doing Irish, personally I have no problem with that, I really have no interest in forcing you to learn the language.

So neither of us in favour of it being forced, then.

Making the subject optional is something that can come about and is not something that I am against in principle, but I do not see it as a one step process, there are many reforms than need to happen before then, its not that I want to force everyone to learn Irish, its that I favor a rational well tought out process that will achieve a balance between what you want, choice, and what I want, the Irish language to continue growing.

Until then, who gives a **** about what a 15 year old wants. LEts just muddle on and hope that massive amounts of them suddenly find the language massively inspiring at the age of 16, because what you want it more important than what they want. Don't think it's going to happen and again, I find that very condescending.

billybudd

Wibbs wrote: »

Well thanks for making that assumption for all Irish people. Another pain in the mammaries I have with too many of the overly pro Irish language camp is this kind of assumption.

I didnt, i said for me and many others.

billybudd

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Freedom of choice, full stop. Why should maths be copulsory? Assuming, of course, that a 15 year old has suffiecent skills for everyday usage.



Problem here is that you're not see the students making the decisions as real human beings. Do you really want to live in a society where choice is something you can live without...?!

Beyond that, like Billy, you seem to want me to prove something I haven't actually stated. I never said it was better, I just said that they should be trusted to pick what they think and feel is relevant.



So neither of us in favour of it being forced, then.



Until then, who gives a **** about what a 15 year old wants? Again, I find that very condescending.

Thats fine i was just working out your train of thought on it.

Wibbs

billybudd wrote: »

I didnt, i said for me and many others.

Followed by

its an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background

Emphasis mine. So yep you did make this assumption for everyone born on this island. Indeed going by what you say this includes people of a non Irish background so long as they're born here. So I stand uncorrected.

billybudd

Wibbs wrote: »

Followed by
Emphasis mine. So yep you did make this assumption for everyone born on this island. Indeed going by what you say this includes people of a non Irish background so long as they're born here. So I stand uncorrected.

you took from it what you wanted and thats fine.

Wibbs

billybudd wrote: »

you took from it what you wanted and thats fine.

I would love for you to explain how I or anyone else could misread/take from it what they want "(Irish is) an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background". I've noted this as a pattern in these threads too. When statements and very clear ones at that like the above are posted and others ask for further explanation, they're regularly told "they're taking from it what they wanted/they're projecting". Seriously. Can you explain what you mean, because it's as clear as mud, no projecting required from the reader.

billybudd

Wibbs wrote: »

I would love for you to explain how I or anyone else could misread/take from it what they want "(Irish is) an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background". I've noted this as a pattern in these threads too. When statements and very clear ones at that like the above are posted and others ask for further explanation, they're regularly told "they're taking from it what they wanted/they're projecting". Seriously. Can you explain what you mean, because it's as clear as mud, no projecting required from the reader.

I never said you where projecting i stated you took from it what you wanted, hardly projecting, from outside of Eire it is an identity that identifies you as Irish, if you want to travel outside the EU and you travel with a Irish passport then your identity is that of a person from Eire.

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Problem here is that you're not see the students making the decisions as real human beings. Do you really want to live in a society where choice is something you can live without...?!

Beyond that, like Billy, you seem to want me to prove something I haven't actually stated. I never said it was better, I just said that they should be trusted to pick what they think and feel is relevant.

So neither of us in favour of it being forced, then.

Until then, who gives a **** about what a 15 year old wants. LEts just muddle on and hope that massive amounts of them suddenly find the language massively inspiring at the age of 16, because what you want it more important than what they want. Don't think it's going to happen and again, I find that very condescending.

If you want the state to spend time and money changing the education system, it should at least be in an effort to make it better. I have never seen anything to suggest that introducing choice will make the system better, in fact it may well make it worse.
That was the experience in England when Languages were made optional.

Choice is not more important than an effective education system

hooradiation

Irish being compulsory is a waste of time and resources and that's about as generous as I can find myself be to it.

To paraphrase David Mitchell, there may well be thousands of fluent Irish speakers in the country, but I can also communicate with them just as well, if not better, through English.
And if there is a small percentage of them that don't speak English then they'd want to be very bloody interesting to justify me learning the language.

I can't see any reason to continue making what is essentially a hobby a compulsory part of the national curriculum. If you know Irish and want to teach it to your sprogs, go for it. If you want to gather with other like minded hobbyists and share your knowledge and learn from each other - fine. Be my guest. Maybe we could even set aside some of the money we currently spend on translations of government documents into Irish and constructing the Irish syllabus into a grant fund for those that want to run courses or workshops about Irish.

What we shouldn't be doing is using this as political and nationalistic football and refusing to contemplate it's removal from the curriculum for ill defined reasons amounting to people somehow being less Irish if we did.

The language can't stand on it's own as things are, so lets give it to the people who profess to care about it and wish them the best of luck, help them as best we can and see how it goes.
The alternative is to continue wasting all that time and money on having the majority of people not actually being able to string a sentence together after thirteen or so years continued education

Fluorescence

Wibbs wrote: »

So yep you did make this assumption for everyone born on this island. Indeed going by what you say this includes people of a non Irish background so long as they're born here. So I stand uncorrected.

In fairness, Irish DOES form a cultural background for all Irish people. We speak Hiberno-English, which is heavily influenced by Gaeilge (despite the vast majority not having much Irish at all).

So, in that sense he was right.

That said, I don't think enough people want to speak Irish. Really REALLY want, not just a wistful "Oh I'd like to speak a cúpla focal". If, as a nation, we were really serious about Irish we'd have a generation of bilinguals. Languages aren't hard, and especially not for children (who just sponge it up). The only problem is they can't see why they are learning it, and teachers can't see what they're doing wrong.

It doesn't help that to get into primary teaching courses you just need a C3 in Higher Irish. That is no acceptable level to converse with a classroom of kids entirely as gaeilge.

Solair

The biggest problem is that you would have to decommission a lot of Irish teachers. And what would they do?!

I think it should be optional. However, if it remains compulsory the exam should be optional. The classes should be more about teaching people some basic communicative skills in Irish and some cultural stuff.

People who are interested would take it on as a full, examinable subject.

Wibbs

billybudd wrote: »

I never said you where projecting i stated you took from it what you wanted, hardly projecting, from outside of Eire it is an identity that identifies you as Irish, if you want to travel outside the EU and you travel with a Irish passport then your identity is that of a person from Eire.

Eh wut? You stated that as far as you are concerned the Irish language is an identity of all Irish people. Anyway moving on...

fluorescence wrote:

In fairness, Irish DOES form a cultural background for all Irish people. We speak Hiberno-English, which is heavily influenced by Gaeilge (despite the vast majority not having much Irish at all).

Oh it does to some degree, but that degree IMHO is pretty exaggerated by some.

That said, I don't think enough people want to speak Irish. Really REALLY want, not just a wistful "Oh I'd like to speak a cúpla focal". If, as a nation, we were really serious about Irish we'd have a generation of bilinguals. Languages aren't hard, and especially not for children (who just sponge it up). The only problem is they can't see why they are learning it, and teachers can't see what they're doing wrong.

I think most of all they find they have little use for it outside the classroom. Even Gaelscoil kids tend to use it little outside the classroom. It doesn't have the critical mass yet to make that leap I reckon. The comparisons to Finnish, Hebrew, Catalan etc you see mentioned are beyond daft because of this lack of critical mass with Irish.

deise go deo

hooradiation wrote: »

Irish being compulsory is a waste of time and resources and that's about as generous as I can find myself be to it.

To paraphrase David Mitchell, there may well be thousands of fluent Irish speakers in the country, but I can also communicate with them just as well, if not better, through English.
And if there is a small percentage of them that don't speak English then they'd want to be very bloody interesting to justify me learning the language.

I can't see any reason to continue making what is essentially a hobby a compulsory part of the national curriculum. If you know Irish and want to teach it to your sprogs, go for it. If you want to gather with other like minded hobbyists and share your knowledge and learn from each other - fine. Be my guest. Maybe we could even set aside some of the money we currently spend on translations of government documents into Irish and constructing the Irish syllabus into a grant fund for those that want to run courses or workshops about Irish.

What we shouldn't be doing is using this as political and nationalistic football and refusing to contemplate it's removal from the curriculum for ill defined reasons amounting to people somehow being less Irish if we did.

The language can't stand on it's own as things are, so lets give it to the people who profess to care about it and wish them the best of luck, help them as best we can and see how it goes.
The alternative is to continue wasting all that time and money on having the majority of people not actually being able to string a sentence together after thirteen or so years continued education

Are get rid of it or leave it as it is now really the only two options you can see?

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

I think most of all they find they have little use for it outside the classroom. Even Gaelscoil kids tend to use it little outside the classroom. It doesn't have the critical mass yet to make that leap I reckon. The comparisons to Finnish, Hebrew, Catalan etc you see mentioned are beyond daft because of this lack of critical mass with Irish.

Out of interest, what would you see as a critical mass? At what point would you say, right, there it is, that's critical mass.

And how would you judge if things are moving twords or away from that critical mass?

hooradiation

deise go deo wrote: »

Are get rid of it or leave it as it is now really the only two options you can see?

If you think that letting those that claim to care about the language be the ones who are responsible for it's continued existence and proliferation constitutes "get[ing] rid of it" then I think you've failed to understand everything I've said.

The King of Moo

Wibbs wrote: »

Or of all the subjects they take, they just can't see the point of Irish? That for most they instinctively realise that it's not "our" language?

The uncool bit? TBH and certainly when I was growing up it would have been seen by many if not most I knew as the language of Irish teachers, cross eyed chuckies, fainne(sp) wearing pseuds and backward flatcapped boggers in possession of a whine rather than an accent. Back then Peig Sayers and all that (largely invented) post Victorian diddley eye shíte tended to copperfasten that for many. That has changed to a large degree, though irrelevant born again boggers like Eamon O'Cuiv* and his ilk should shuffle off into the sunset homes for the terminally fcuking daft.

I think when they get to secondary school, or at least fourth/fifth year, then a lot of students would look at their subjects and see Irish as less relevant than the others.

But for those with a grudge against, it exists well before they've begun to think of how relevant their subjects will be to their college courses or career.

The main reason for people developing this grudge is the way it's taught from the start. Many of the basics needed when learning a second language are either ignored or skipped over. It's probably due to the expectation that students should already know some Irish (probably not as common as in my day) and due to the fact that people don't tend to speak a second language here, even if they're fluent in Irish (something which can also be seen in the way many teachers teach other languages in schools) so some Irish teachers, despite being fluent, aren't well-equipped to teach the language.
I'd contrast the way Irish is taught here with the way English is taught in many countries on the continent where most teachers have learned English themselves as a second language and because of this and the fact that in their lives they would've used/encountered English as a second language, they're better equipped to teach English and know better what the students need and want.

Coolness is also a problem. Again, things have probably improved in that regard in recent years, but as you say, when I was learning it was the language of bearded gaeilgeoirs, Peig, and Eddie Lenihan the seanchaí on the Den at 5.30 on Fridays (probably the only day we'd consider turning off the Den early!).

I think a second language should be taught for all of primary school and secondary school, and during primary school it should be Irish simply because some children will have some knowledge of it and kids have more exposure to it. Not for any great nationalist or cultural reasons, it just seems more practical.
Then in secondary school, or fourth year, if students decide they don't want to continue learning or it won't be useful to them, they can get rid of it.

But I think if Irish were taught better and made more fun in primary school (which isn't so hard to do) more students would be better-disposed to it and willing to keep it on, or else wish to stop learning because it's not relevant to them or because they want to parlay the language ability they've developed from learning Irish into another language (and maybe continue learning/speaking Irish in their spare time). They might even feel good enough at it not to need continue learning it in school.

I've no problem with teenagers deciding they want to stop learning Irish (they're smarter than we think!) but I think if they'd learned Irish properly and had it made more attractive , they'd all be dropping it for the right reasons.

conor.hogan.2

It is the national language of Ireland. (whether you like it or not, whether it is widely spoken or not)

It is not being taught well in school, but I don't think any of the subjects are being taught particularly well.

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

Out of interest, what would you see as a critical mass? At what point would you say, right, there it is, that's critical mass.

I suppose when it's actually spoken and used outside the classroom, special interest groups(clubs and the like) and traditional Irish speaking areas. Simply when you hear more people using it as a communication tool.

And how would you judge if things are moving twords or away from that critical mass?

Hard to judge. It had more usage in the past (since the foundation of the state) and declined. More schools used it all the way to the LC and still it declined. Maybe mass media as Gaelige will make that change in a better direction today? I reckon if it does grow appreciably it'll be more down to that.

The King of Moo wrote:

Coolness is also a problem. Again, things have probably improved in that regard in recent years, but as you say, when I was learning it was the language of bearded gaeilgeoirs, Peig, and Eddie Lenihan the seanchaí on the Den at 5.30 on Fridays (probably the only day we'd consider turning off the Den early!).

Oh god it was even worse in the 70's/80's. I'd agree with you though it's definitely gotten "cooler" in the last decade as far as the media is concerned. More youth orientated stuff for a start.

conor.hogan.2 wrote:

It is the national language of Ireland. (whether you like it or not, whether it is widely spoken or not)

How the more proactive Irish language bods miss the irony/doublethink of the bold bit above always fascinates me. It's "national language status" is largely artificial. An alien who landed would find it all a bit odd.

LordSutch

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It is the national language of Ireland. (whether you like it or not, whether it is widely spoken or not)

Indeed it is in theory, but in practice it most definately is not. English is our National language as you well know, and as the whole world recognises (including the Chinese)!

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It is not being taught well in school, but I don't think any of the subjects are being taught particularly well.

But Irish has been very badly taught since it was first introduced into our schools, for decades it has been mistaught, and I guess it will continue to be mistaught, ergo the status quo will continue > Irish will remain (on paper) as our official language, Irish children will continue to be churned out of the educational system not being able to speak it, and the vast majority of the adult population will continue to communicate in our first language - English.

Iwasfrozen

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It is the national language of Ireland. (whether you like it or not, whether it is widely spoken or not

It is one of the national languages of Ireland. On par with english.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It is not being taught well in school, but I don't think any of the subjects are being taught particularly well.

I studied german in school and it was taught much better. Same with french. The course was much less literature based and more focused on the conversational aspect of the language. The irish curriculum coordinators could learn a thing or two from their german colleagues. After it's made optional of course.

token101

Yes. If you want a knowledge and skills based economy then there are far more relevant subjects than Irish, like Maths and IT. IT should be a core subject, you can get most jobs without Irish, you won't get many without at least basic IT skills. You interact with IT systems everyday, I haven't used Irish in years. If you want to learn Irish after primary school then pick it as an extra subject, like people do Applied Maths, extra languages, etc. I wouldn't even be adverse to offering incentives for it, like extra LC points or whatever, just to encourage people to keep the language going.

conorhal

Looking at the arguments from some on this thread, it would seem that the only subjects taught in schools should be:

Math
Mandarin
Computer science
Basic literacy
Chemistry
Business and Economics

End of.

Should we dispense with history? Ours is of little or no interest to the rest of the world. Surely English literature constitutes nothing but an impractical waste of time? Art classes or music serve no real function either come to think of it.

But then I guess I'm in the minority of people that think schools are one of our most important cultural building blocks supposed to educate the soul as well as shaping citizens with enquiring minds, as opposed to churning out culturally void ‘economic units’ ready to plug into the factory floor.
A disturbing number of people however seem quite happy to live in a society which places no value on culture, possesses no values, retains no history and seeks to commodify all human experience, even beauty or love. Such a society of course would never reach for the stars, or write about them for that matter, it would just lie in the gutter and wonder how the sh1t floating past might be turned into gold.

Iwasfrozen

conorhal wrote: »

But then I guess I'm in the minority of people that think schools are one of our most important cultural building blocks supposed to educate the soul as well as shaping citizens with enquiring minds, as opposed to churning out culturally void ‘economic units’ ready to plug into the factory floor.
A disturbing number of people however seem quite happy to live in a society which places no value on culture, possesses no values, retains no history and seeks to commodify all human experience, even beauty or love. Such a society of course would never reach for the stars, or write about them for that matter, it would just lie in the gutter and wonder how the sh1t floating past might be turned into gold.

Better then writing poems over a half empty glass of Guinness in the back arse of Connemara.

JohnMarston

I do think Irish should be optional, but more should be done to create a love for the language. That starts with not forcing people to learn it.

I fail to see why european languages are any more relevant, unless you plan to move to and work in the one, maybe two countries that french, german spanish etc. is spoken.

I dont know about you but it would be nice to think that in fifty years time there would be people still speaking Irish.

Seanchai

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It is one of the national languages of Ireland. On par with English

It's not. Curiously enough, English is the "national language" of the nation known as England. As such it never was the national language of the nation known as Ireland. That honour has only been held by, unsurprisingly, Irish. This isn't rocket science.

That you don't know the difference between English being an "official language" of Ireland (which it is) and being a "national language" (which it isn't) reflects poorly on your command of the English language. Why is it always the same sort of undereducated types who use Irish as a scapegoat for their own failures most?

LordSutch

JohnMarston wrote: »

I do think Irish should be optional, but more should be done to create a love for the language. That starts with not forcing people to learn it.

Agreed, and seeing as it isnt our national language (in any meaningful/practical way) then it shouldn't be forced on us.

JohnMarston wrote: »

I fail to see why european languages are any more relevant, unless you plan to move to and work in the one, maybe two countries that french, german spanish etc. is spoken.

Surely european languages would be far more relavant to master than Irish! after all if you leave these shores (like many people currently are) then another language would be very helpful, German, French & Spanish spring to mind, and if you stay here you can continue to speak English!

JohnMarston

LordSutch wrote: »

Surely european languages would be far more relavant to master than Irish! after all if you leave these shores (like many people currently are) then another language would be very helpful, German, French & Spanish spring to mind, and if you stay here you can continue to speak English!

True, true

conorhal

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Better then writing poems over a half empty glass of Guinness in the back arse of Connemara.

I put it to you that there is more inherent value in that, then there was in all the harvard MBA's in Lehman Brothers thinking up new ways to comoditize your mortgage arrears to turn a buck.....

The King of Moo

LordSutch wrote: »

Agreed, and seeing as it isnt our national language (in any meaningful/practical way) then it shouldn't be forced on us.



Surely european languages would be far more relavant to master than Irish! after all if you leave these shores (like many people currently are) then another language would be very helpful, German, French & Spanish spring to mind, and if you stay here you can continue to speak English!

In secondary school, yes, but I think Irish is the best language to teach in primary school as some kids will already have some, they can be more exposed to it through tv and radio, and I also think it'd be hard to convince a four-year old that learning German or French would be relevant to them .

If we taught Irish properly, kids could leave primary school with a good grasp of it (and even another language perhaps) and they could they focus on one or two European languages in secondary school (maybe one compulsory and one optional, the latter including Irish), which again, should be taught properly, not just by someone who can speak the language and be assumed that they can teach it.

Cú Giobach

Some anglophilic Bearlgeoir seems to have been playing with the boards software, someone stole the fada from the thanks function. :eek:
Cú Giobach thanking someone just seems wrong.

To all you lovers of our great Gaelic heritage, don't accept this travesty to our ancient and wonderful language and call for its reinstatement now.

Sorry for being off topic.

starlit

Yes I agree Irish should be optional at Leaving Cert while having English and at least one Foreign language compulsory with the option of doing Irish or another Foreign Language.
Irish is really only needed for certain people and certain professions.

I would recommend that students complete compulsory Irish while in primary school and up to Junior Cert Level. Up to them if they wish to complete it in TY, and at Leaving Cert Level. Might be an idea to still do it if they wish as an extra subject in TY and 5th year once in 6th year can decide if they want to keep it on or not or if they wish have the option to do the exam in 5th year rather than in 6th. It be even then that they have it done and completed the subject. Then have the option of doing one or two foreign languages without or without having completed Irish for the Leaving already in 5th year rather than waiting till 6th year too do it.

Though all the Uni's and IT's require you have Irish at the moment but I'd hope that might become optional for IT's at least. You have to have Maths but I think you can use either use English or a language as a requirement into colleges at the moment. Any course that has languages in it you be expected to have covered that language at leaving cert level and achieve a certain grade to meet requirements of getting into the course.

I think it would be very important to introduce all or most foreign languages to students at a much younger age even from when they start school. Just basic stuff and grammar. Its stuff you could learn in Primary school first before going into Secondary school at least you get an grounded understanding of the language and foundations of it learnt already before even starting 2nd level. You can concentrate then on the oral, tape, composition, comprehension and writing when in secondary school and go a little advanced like you would with the Irish and English when in secondary school compared to primary school.

It work in students favour whether they are into languages or not or not good at them, if started early they might actually like and do well in the language. They should be given more choices of languages though down the country I feel French or German isn't enough, they should at least have Spanish and Italian as an option down the country too.

Fluorescence

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Some anglophilic Bearlgeoir seems to have been playing with the boards software, someone stole the fada from the thanks function. :eek:
Cú Giobach thanking someone just seems wrong.

To all you lovers of our great Gaelic heritage, don't accept this travesty to our ancient and wonderful language and call for its reinstatement now.

Sorry for being off topic.

I think that's probably just a problem with the particular browser you're using...

LordSutch

The King of Moo wrote: »

In secondary school, yes, but I think Irish is the best language to teach in primary school as some kids will already have some,

Let me stop you there! > "as some kids will already have some . . . "

Some kids indeed, but very few I would suggest, and re my own kids, the first bit of irish they will ever hear is when they walk through the doors of their Primary school, and I reckon my children are not alone in this introduction to Irish.

jcf

Make it optional, at least the kids who do it will want to learn it and will keep it more "alive" then it is now.

Iwasfrozen

Seanchai wrote: »

It's not. Curiously enough, English is the "national language" of the nation known as England. As such it never was the national language of the nation known as Ireland. That honour has only been held by, unsurprisingly, Irish. This isn't rocket science.

If you believe that you'll believe anything. "Ireland" itself is just an island. An unimportant piece of land. It is the people who make it a nation and those people speak english. See? Logic. This isn't rocket science you know.

Seanchai wrote: »

That you don't know the difference between English being an "official language" of Ireland (which it is) and being a "national language" (which it isn't) reflects poorly on your command of the English language. Why is it always the same sort of undereducated types who use Irish as a scapegoat for their own failures most?

Why is it that we must fund this over inflated hobby of pseudo intellectuals with public funds just so they can look down their nose at those they call "undereducated" ?

The King of Moo

LordSutch wrote: »

Let me stop you there! > "as some kids will already have some . . . "

Some kids indeed, but very few I would suggest, and re my own kids, the first bit of irish they will ever hear is when they walk through the doors of their Primary school, and I reckon my children are not alone in this introduction to Irish.

Of course most kids (but not all) will have little or none, but I'm sure there's more four-year olds with a cúpla focail than there are with a bit of French or German.

And once they start learning there are many kid-friendly Irish resources available to them outside of school.

Again, I've no real cultural or nationalistic reasons for wanting kids to learn Irish, but I think it's crucial for young kids to learn a second language, and Irish is the most practical choice.

Cú Giobach

fluorescence wrote: »

I think that's probably just a problem with the particular browser you're using...

You think so?
It (Chrome) was never like that before and shows the fada everywhere else, except on the "thanks".
I thanked conorhal's post no 183 above, does it show the fada in my name for you?

Iwasfrozen

conorhal wrote: »

I put it to you that there is more inherent value in that, then there was in all the harvard MBA's in Lehman Brothers thinking up new ways to comoditize your mortgage arrears to turn a buck.....

There really is something wrong with our education system if we're turning out adults who think poems are more important then investment banks! :eek:

kowloon

conorhal wrote: »

Looking at the arguments from some on this thread, it would seem that the only subjects taught in schools should be:

Maths
Mandarin
Computer science
Basic literacy
Chemistry
Business and Economics

End of.

Should we dispense with history? Ours is of little or no interest to the rest of the world. Surely English literature constitutes nothing but an impractical waste of time? Art classes or music serve no real function either come to think of it.

But then I guess I'm in the minority of people that think schools are one of our most important cultural building blocks supposed to educate the soul as well as shaping citizens with enquiring minds, as opposed to churning out culturally void ‘economic units’ ready to plug into the factory floor.
A disturbing number of people however seem quite happy to live in a society which places no value on culture, possesses no values, retains no history and seeks to commodify all human experience, even beauty or love. Such a society of course would never reach for the stars, or write about them for that matter, it would just lie in the gutter and wonder how the sh1t floating past might be turned into gold.

Physics and Biology are useful sciences too.

I consider History to be the subject more relevant to our history than Irish.
Yet it's not compulsory. I don't think anything should be forced on anyone at leaving cert level.
I believe in freedom of choice, particularly when it has such an effect on the students future, but if we had to make a subject compulsory to preserve heritage, why would it be Irish and not History?

MysticalRain

conorhal wrote: »

Looking at the arguments from some on this thread, it would seem that the only subjects taught in schools should be:

Math
Mandarin
Computer science
Basic literacy
Chemistry
Business and Economics

End of.

Should we dispense with history? Ours is of little or no interest to the rest of the world. Surely English literature constitutes nothing but an impractical waste of time? Art classes or music serve no real function either come to think of it.

But then I guess I'm in the minority of people that think schools are one of our most important cultural building blocks supposed to educate the soul as well as shaping citizens with enquiring minds, as opposed to churning out culturally void ‘economic units’ ready to plug into the factory floor.
A disturbing number of people however seem quite happy to live in a society which places no value on culture, possesses no values, retains no history and seeks to commodify all human experience, even beauty or love. Such a society of course would never reach for the stars, or write about them for that matter, it would just lie in the gutter and wonder how the sh1t floating past might be turned into gold.

I am happy to be corrected. But I don't believe anyone has suggested eradicating anything related to history or culture in the school curriculum.

As an Irish history buff myself, I would be very much against that. Although in my experience, I learned a hell of a lot more about Irish history and culture outside of school hours in my own time than I ever did in school. That included listening to Eddie Lenihan's stories on the Den as well.