UCD and China

badtinegirl

I know we need funding but reading the links below, should we really be dealing with this regime?
China seems to be splashing hush money all over the world. Still Hugh might get his Gateway project yet.

http://www.ucd.ie/news/2012/02FEB12/200212-First-international-university-announced-for-Beijing.html


http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/china?id=1011134

or

http://www.freetibet.org/


Not sure if the SU has a position on this.

HavingCrack

If UCD complain about the Chinese regime the Chinese will just take their money elsewhere. They couldn't give a **** about which universities they deal with.

UCD have everything to lose by protesting and absolutely nothing to gain, minus some western sense of "doing the right thing" and making themselves feel better while actually not helping the cause of human rights in China one iota.

As sad as it is to say there's nothing to be gained from kicking up a fuss and an awful lot to lose. If UCD refuse to do business I'm sure UCC or Aberdeen or Barcelona or Leuven etc. will.

stop

There will be a proper new Confucius Institiute built on campus over the next few years. (currently using the old legal ed building in Roebuck)
Concerns & Controversies over Confucius Institutes (Wikipedia)

The huge number of Chinese students will boost the University's rankings, and they pay full fees which helps the coffers too. I'd be interested to see how any pro-tibet / falun gong movements would be treated when the Confucius Institute proper comes about, but tbh I don't see the majority of UCD students giving a toss either way... unless the Chinese suddenly turned against drink :pac:

Personally, I don't like the cosying up to the Chinese government. I don't like the head of the Polit Bureau or any other officials being welcomed with open arms... but at the end of the day its about money, the government is doing the same, as are most countries around the world, except maybe Norway. They don't have the spine to refuse them, but I can understand why, China will go elsewhere to get what it wants.

badtinegirl

I cant agree with that havingcrack, We have everything to lose by taking the money
let them go somewhere else. Did you read the links?

Im amazed that more was not made of the link up. Where next North Korea.

Its a smear on the good work this college has done since 1854

HavingCrack

badtinegirl wrote: »

I cant agree with that havingcrack, We have everything to lose by taking the money
let them go somewhere else. Did you read the links?

Im amazed that more was not made of the link up. Where next North Korea.

Its a smear on the good work this college has done since 1854

I don't need to read the links, I'm well aware of the Chinese human rights record regards Tibet, the Uighars, Falun Gong etc. It's appalling, not much worse than the US mind you (and I don't see the same fuss being kicked up about US investment).

I think you're missing the point. We have nothing to lose except some sort of moral high ground that won't help the cause of human rights in China whatsoever. Do you really think the Chinese government cares about the opinions of a country of 4 million people let alone the few thousand in UCD.

UCD loses valuable investment that we can ill afford to lose all in pursuit of a moral high ground that won't make one difference to the average Tibetan.

We have nothing to gain from kicking up a fuss and a lot to lose. The Chinese will go somewhere else and the plight of human rights in China will remain the same while we lose investment we need. It's lose-lose for UCD.

Conor108

HavingCrack wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. We have nothing to lose except some sort of moral high ground that won't help the cause of human rights in China whatsoever. Do you really think the Chinese government cares about the opinions of a country of 4 million people let alone the few thousand in UCD.

This. Beggers can't be choosers.

badtinegirl

We will have to disagree that we have nothing to lose as a college or nation.

What about the men women and children in china tibet etc who we turning our backs on? if everybody thinks this way we will all be screwed in the long run.

Duke Fame

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.

MLK

Michael Collins

HavingCrack wrote: »

If UCD complain about the Chinese regime the Chinese will just take their money elsewhere. They couldn't give a **** about which universities they deal with.

UCD have everything to lose by protesting and absolutely nothing to gain, minus some western sense of "doing the right thing" and making themselves feel better while actually not helping the cause of human rights in China one iota.

As sad as it is to say there's nothing to be gained from kicking up a fuss and an awful lot to lose. If UCD refuse to do business I'm sure UCC or Aberdeen or Barcelona or Leuven etc. will.

I might direct you to the words of Martin Niemöller:

When first they came for the criminals I did not speak
Then they began to take the Jews

When they fetched the people who were members of trade unions
I did not speak

When they took the Bible students, rounded up the homosexuals
Then they gathered up the immigrants and the gypsies
I did not speak, I did not speak

Eventually they came for me and there was no one left to speak.

HavingCrack

badtinegirl wrote: »

We will have to disagree that we have nothing to lose as a college or nation.

What about the men women and children in china tibet etc who we turning our backs on? if everybody thinks this way we will all be screwed in the long run.

What do we have to lose exactly?

Duke Fame wrote: »

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.

MLK

Michael Collins wrote: »

I might direct you to the words of Martin Niemöller:

I'll repeat myself one last time and then I'm out of this thread. The Chinese government will not care if UCD protests.

All that will happen is they will take their investment elsewhere. There's plenty of universities prepared to do business with them as sad as it may seem.

And what will UCD standing up to the Chinese government do for human rights abuses in China? Diddly squat-absolutely nothing. The opinions of an island state of 4 million and the few thousand in UCD will have no impact on a government that doesn't listen to the US/Russia/UK/France/India etc.

All that we'll do is make ourselves "feel good" that we're standing with those oppressed in China when in fact it will have no positive benefit to those people at all.

Unfortunately there are far too many countries and universities prepared to do business with China for one protest in UCD to make the slightest difference.

The situation isn't even comparable to apartheid era South Africa. China is a far more important global player, nuclear power, economic powerhouse and member of the UN security council and will only get stronger.

There are ways to make a difference to those suffering in China but shunning Chinese investment merely amounts to a back patting effort, not a real solution.

Einhard

The UN Declaration on Human Rights states that both individuals and the collective have intrinsic rights which have to be protected. The rights of the latter include the right to decent healthcare, the right to shelter, and to have enough food.

One could make the argument, and the Chinese certainly do, that Western countries, particularly the US, chastise China for failing on the former point, while they themselves are in flagrant breach of the latter.

I think also that, while abuses in China ought to be condemned, they are perpetrated because there is a massive fear of instability in that country- which considering the last two centuries of their history isn't exactly unreasonable. Many Chinese look at their society and see a remarkable transformation for the better. Tens of millions have been taken out of poverty, and there has never been lower rates of malnutrition. Their view is that instability at this juncture might erode all that progress and endanger the achievements made in recent decades.

I'm not writing this to defend China, but to point out that a more nuanced consideration of the issues involved is always helpful.

Meow_Meow

I rather wonder why the Socialist Soc or whatever they're calling themselves aren't on top of this already. If we had relations with Israeli universities they'd be all over it. I guess China just 'in' at the moment.

Pacifist Pigeon

Meh, it suits the Utopian architecture.

Evilcamper

I agree with Einhard. My family is from Hong Kong and my Grandpa came down from China and even then the main concerns were stability and feeling full. The reason I feel the communist despite everything they do is still in power is because the other options are worse. It doesn't really help when we protest as Chinese when they see Ireland they think 4 million people calling themselves a country, that's not even a city where they come from. Not to mention all UCD protests would do is turn the chinese public against those political activists as it indicates that they are not reflecting chinese opinions but outside influences. Despite what we think China is still a quite insular society in ways. The problem is that the average chinese person no matter how much they dislike their leaders, they dislike their leaders being attacked by outside groups even more.