Apartment management fees.

Moo1

Just got a bill today for €1300 for management fees which I feel is excessive. We have met them several times and they have not broken down charges, they also inform us that 2012/2013 fees will be on the way next month. I feel we shouldn't pay on the basis of no invoice breakdown I don't dispute they have carried out certain tasks and should be paid for them but the balance of charges don't stack up. Anybody have similar experiences.

jd

Did you ever get notice of an AGM, accounts and budgets for the year etc?

Moo1

We did, but we contested aspects of it for example window cleaning which never happened.

Lantus

Firstly the bad news..There is never a reason to withold payment of fees for whatever reason under the lease and contract and laws governing OMC's.

Next.....

Is the OMC run by developers still? They tend to be pretty bad just quoting bulk figures with no justification. Wouldn't be surprised if several hundred of it goes straight into their pockets.

You should get and are entitled to a detailed breakdown of costs from the OMC that makes up your service fee.There should be detailed accounts produced on a daily basis. I would also obtain and request (typically at an AGM but you can ask for them anytime) the 'working books' these are the day to day accounts and not the same as the final end of year accounts that get submitted t the CRO (and can often be very different to anything in the budgets you may of seen as we have discovered.)

If services are being provided by third parties fiond out who they are and request the signed contracts detailing the fee's being charged.

The sinking fund allowance should be in a seperate account.

Request all ESB and other servioes bills.

If any of these are 'missing' or unavailable then or your given the run around for weeks or months then start to smell a rat.

As a final option get together with other residents and prior to the next AGM announce your intention to stand as a director by sending it in writing to the registered office. Then take over and take control and hopefully reduce costs!

dont expect corrupt or slimy directors or developers to suddenly get a conciensce though. The law protects them to the hilt and you'd have to mount a high court case at your own expense to get anywhere, removal and replacement is the only easy cure to the sickness they bring.

markpb

This post in the Mega Management Company thread might help.

wasim21k

when every i see management fee thread my blood boils. :mad:
Scavengers and parasites (sorry if i hurt someone but this my opinion and experience)
just dont get me started...:mad:

pinkypinky

wasim21k wrote: »

when every i see management fee thread my blood boils. :mad:
Scavengers and parasites (sorry if i hurt someone but this my opinion and experience)
just dont get me started...:mad:

Comments like that really annoy me.
We're stuck with the management company system and it's up to residents in the developments to make it work. It takes effort, time and little thanks but it is worth it. The fact that managing agents are unregulated is a different problem but by having an active resident committee of directors in charge, any managing agent can be reined in, and if not, fired.

markpb

pinkypinky wrote: »

The fact that managing agents are unregulated is a different problem

Not any more! The Property Services Regulation Act was passed in the Dail just before Christmas and has been signed into law by the President. This gives full, legal authority to the NPSRA who will regulate management agents and estate agents.

pinkypinky

markpb wrote: »

Not any more! The Property Services Regulation Act was passed in the Dail just before Christmas and has been signed into law by the President. This gives full, legal authority to the NPSRA who will regulate management agents and estate agents.

Oh excellent - I missed that.

athtrasna

wasim21k wrote: »

when every i see management fee thread my blood boils. :mad:
Scavengers and parasites (sorry if i hurt someone but this my opinion and experience)
just dont get me started...:mad:

Sounds like you don't understand the system at all. I live in a managed development. I am an owner/director and got involved as soon as the MC was handed over to the owners. It was the best way to protect my interests and make sure that fees charged and services received are fair.

There are five of us, all normal owners with mortgages. We probably spend 100 hours a year working hard for free to make sure that the development runs smoothly, is a pleasant and safe place to live and is well maintained.

We work with our Management Agent to insure that fees are kept as low as possible while providing what is needed for the development. As we pay our fees too it is in our interest to do so.

Nothing in the least like a scavenger or a parasite!!

CricketDude

I used to own a couple of apartments in a Dublin managed complex too until 2005.
I still know some people who still own apartments there now so I can tell you what the yearly fee is now.

At the time I bought the apartments the management charges were the equivalent in punts of about €1000 or the one bed and €1200 for the 2 bed.

I thought this was expensive so got on the management committee.
I found that the people on it already were just useless and 2 of them were relatives of the management agents who had been sold their apartments at a discount and thought they owned the whole place. Then I found out that most of the contractors who were given jobs, were related to or friends of the committee or agents and their prices were extortionate.

Eventually I got the yearly charges down for the 1 bed apartments to €600. They are €650 this year as far as I know, so still good work is being done there. The 2 beds I got down to €700 and they are €775 this year.

I did this by pointing out that the committee was acting in their own interests and not the interests of the people they were supposed to be representing. And I would be sending out a notice to everyone about who was getting the contract jobs and how much they were charging. And I also said that I would be reporting he current members to the authorities for this as well unless they resigned. They resigned, we formed a new committee, changed the agent (the new ones cost less than half the price). We ensured tenders were received for every contract, every year.

The costs tumbled massively and they are still down.

When agents get in they will get lazy. Same goes for the committee. They form relationships with each other that are unhealthy.

If you make it a point to change agents every couple of years and get tenders for everything then the current agent is much more likely to get costs down.

You need to be proactive. Get on the committee. Get your neighbours together and examine the accounts and question everything at the AGMs.

You can easily half the charges if you need to. Once you are involved you can control the flow of money to agents and contractors.

athtrasna

Getting involved is positive, making generalisations isn't.

A one one bed in our development is about €600..that includes refuse.

Paulw

athtrasna wrote: »

Getting involved is positive, making generalisations isn't.

Exactly.

It's almost impossible to compare fees for units from different developments, since each has it's own costs that the other may not have, and is all dependent on size and features of the development.

CricketDude

Paulw wrote: »

Exactly.

It's almost impossible to compare fees for units from different developments, since each has it's own costs that the other may not have, and is all dependent on size and features of the development.

well find out everything about those costs and take some control.

tp1980

Hi everyone,

I'm a member and a new director of a management company and I'm interested in changing the management agent...any good sugestions?

Thanks,

Paulw

tp1980 wrote: »

I'm a member and a new director of a management company and I'm interested in changing the management agent...any good sugestions?

Shop around. Get multiple quotes. Make sure they do a site visit before they quote you. Get a list of their sub-contractors and what they plan to do.

Take your time.

amtc

I think I live where altthrasna does - I'm quite happy with what we get

fptosca

I pay €1,600 a year to the management company. 40 apartments divided in two blocks. Location - Blanchardstown.
Fee includes refuse collection, insurance for the Building, lift maintenance, carpark and garden maintenance, bulbs and stairs cleaning and maintenance, admin charges and not a lot more.
The Management company holds a meeting every year where the fee is explained and it's easy to get in contact with them at any time.
Are we being overcharged?
I think we probably are but I don't know how much other people is paying for similar services.

Paulw

fptosca wrote: »

The Management company holds a meeting every year where the fee is explained and it's easy to get in contact with them at any time.
Are we being overcharged?

Only you can answer that question. Do you go to the AGM each year, and go through the accounts, as explained by your management agent?

If the fee is explained, then it should be clear what you are paying for, and so you should know if you're being charged correctly or not. :eek:

fptosca

Paulw wrote: »

Only you can answer that question. Do you go to the AGM each year, and go through the accounts, as explained by your management agent?

If the fee is explained, then it should be clear what you are paying for, and so you should know if you're being charged correctly or not. :eek:

Yes, I go to the meeting every year but if they tell me that the refuse collection is say €10K per year and the cleaners €8K and admin costs €5K and so on (making up the figures here)... I don't know if that's OK or expensive.
You could say that I could find out by myself if I'm really that interested to know, and you are probably right.
I just came across this thread and though of giving it a try here.

Paulw

fptosca wrote: »

Yes, I go to the meeting every year but if they tell me that the refuse collection is say €10K per year and the cleaners €8K and admin costs €5K and so on (making up the figures here)... I don't know if that's OK or expensive.

No one on here can give a true answer, without seeing your accounts and checking other quotes.

At your AGM, it is up to the members (including you) to decide if the costs are right or not. You get to vote, to accept the proposed budget for the coming year or not.

You will just have to go do your own research, since every development is different.

fptosca

I think I'll have a chat with a few neighbours before the meeting to agree a common position

ted1

Admin fee, translates to agents cut.

Paulw

ted1 wrote: »

Admin fee, translates to agents cut.

The agent usually has a specific fee listed. Admin costs tend to be things like CRO filings, notifications, post, phone charges and other admin fees like that.

Again, the poster was just picking numbers at random, rather than actual figures.

cookie1977

Director insurance and secratarial fees also. I'm a director on my apt complex. We had out agm tonight and only 1 person turned up (apart from the directors). Comparing complexes can be like comparing chalk and cheese. We have 3 lifts in our complex and these are a big part of our costs. We also have a full time caretaker which while a big cost can work out well as we can get them to do jobs we'd have to hire others to do such as painting and repairs etc... We have only about 50 apts.

If you really want to get involved try and get on to the management company with the other directors.

You can see who the directors of your company are by looking them up. For instance until the end of May Solocheck will tell you for free the list of directors:
www.solocheck.ie
The same info is held by the CRO for a fee