Temp ban on general traffic threads

Iwannahurl

Discodog wrote: »

The area between Barna & Lettermullen has a surprising number of households that are totally car dependant. You can use buses provided that you work a normal day & work in the centre of town. But you will need the car for your daily groceries, taking your kids to school as well as running your business.

The cost of the vehicle is irrelevant. It is the running costs which include paying huge sums to the government & local authority. If you added it all up including fuel duty, vat etc it costs a fortune.

Yes I think that if people are charged they should receive something in return.

I have already said that if I see loads of full buses & lots of pedestrains/cyclists then I may feel that all the expense & huge disruption might of been worth it. But to-date every time that I have used that route I see very few. Also as a part time cyclist & pedestrian I would prefer to cycle & walk through the back streets rather than along a busy main road - it's also a lot shorter.

No not in an ideal world but we are in the middle of a huge recession. Outside of the rush hour I wonder how full those buses will be.

No but what they are doing is making the use of business vehicles prohibitively expensive especially in the time taken to complete a journey. I turn down work every week because it isn't economically viable to cross the city.

Are you suggesting that once a bypass is built that more Galway county residents will go out & buy cars ? You can't have local jobs because no business will open where it can take ages to cover a few miles. The normal pattern is that cities build proper fast ring roads & then employers open up on the periphery. You can't cover rural Connemara in factories.

But you are both ignoring the fact that Galway is a through point so a lot of traffic that has to pass through Galway doesn't want to be there. By slowly grinding the city to a halt you affect thousands who live in Clifden, Mayo etc. You also end up dividing the city so that supermarkets, diy's etc have to open multiple branches to allow their customer to reach them.

I have lost count of the number of shops & businesses that I used to support where I now use the internet. A proper park & ride would work & I would use it when I didn't need the vehicle with me. I thought that Galway were copying Oxford but now they seem to be doing it in a half arsed way. The road that leads into Oxford, from the West, is far narrower than ours but the buses run super fast - they even have a system that changes the lights as the bus approaches.

Make the cost low & the service efficient & people will use it. There is plenty of commercial land around Knocknacara for a park & ride carpark.

Discodog wrote: »

Where I live, to the West of Galway, there are thousands of households & an irregular, infrequent bus service. It is very antisocial to say to these people that they can't use their cars especially after they have had to pay a fortune to own them.

Discodog wrote: »

The time to do these road "improvements" is after a bypass is built & not before.

Who's saying that people living between Barna & Lettermullen cannot use their car for the daily groceries and taking the kids to school?

By the way, the number of houses in certain parts of County Galway, and the ensuing car dependence, is not surprising at all given the policies of Galway County Council and the nature of its "planning" decisions. The folly of this has been pointed out for many years, and ignored of course.

To clarify, are you saying that the more I pay in terms of running costs for my chosen mode of transport the higher the Level of Service I should get? How might such a system work in practice?

As for being in the middle of a huge recession, where are we supposed to get the €320 million or so for a Bypass? Are you aware that tolling is proposed suggested/hinted at for the GCOB? What effect is that going to would a toll have on its operation and on its users' running costs?

I should say at this point that I don't want a debate on the vexed question of the GCOB. This has already been discussed in a couple of threads in the Roads forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1394




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Sponge Bob

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Are you aware that tolling is proposed for the GCOB?

Link!!!!

I should say at this point that I don't want to ignite a debate on the vexed question of the GCOB. This has already been discussed in a couple of threads in the Roads forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1394

You have your very own thread on the matter in that forum.

Iwannahurl

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I made that point many times but seemingly the answer is that there aren't enough bicycles in Connemara.

Quote the key post(s) making that exact claim.



Re the ickle Bypass, I suppose it's more accurate to say that a toll has been suggested rather than proposed.

"Mind you, the government won’t be funding the major plan costing hundreds of millions, those days are gone when the money was sloshing about the place. The most likely financing is through public-private partnership and that the road will be tolled."
http://www.galwaynews.ie/opinions/galway-outer-bypass-topped-list-tests-establish-value-money

There's also precedent, in that the NRA has tolled bypasses already. For example, AFAIK, Fermoy, Drogheda, Waterford.

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Are you aware that tolling is proposed suggested/hinted at for the GCOB?

Where do you get this rubbish out of?

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The most likely financing is through public-private partnership and that the road will be tolled.[/I]"
http://www.galwaynews.ie/opinions/galway-outer-bypass-topped-list-tests-establish-value-money

Ah right an opinion piece by a journalist who has nothing to do with the project, stating his opinion of what's possible.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

There's also precedent, in that the NRA has tolled bypasses already. For example, AFAIK, Fermoy, Drogheda, Waterford.

Yes and those tolls were announced as part of the original project specifications (as were the M4, M6, M7/8 tolls). There's no mention in any of the project documentation for GCOB of a toll. Interestingly the PPP documentation that the NRA published regarding the 4 top priority projects doesn't mention a toll anywhere (despite numerous "suggestions" that M17/18 will be tolled since the publication of the document).

Also there the small issue of the practicality of adding a toll to the proposal since the plans for GCOB have already been approved by ABP - sans toll. So adding one at this stage would be breaching their planning.

The only way a toll can get added at this stage is if ECB affirms the appeal (the prospects of which I will not go into) and the NRA, Galway Co.Co. have to go back to the drawaing board.

Iwannahurl

I don't think it would be a good idea to enter into a lengthy discussion on the GCOB in this forum, so I hope I can make this my last comment here on the matter.

None of the work done so far on the GCOB project automatically precludes a toll.

Clearly there are other ways to finance a PPP, but a toll has not been definitively ruled out.

Sean Kyne asked a question about this in the Dail last October, and Leo Varadkar's written answer was that it was a matter for the NRA, and gave no indication of a final decision having been made in that regard. Indeed Varadkar seemed to suggest that a toll could still potentially be discussed: "I am currently organising a roundtable meeting with the various public authorities involved in this project."

If a toll-free GCOB is already a fait accompli, why the need for a Dail question and why no definitive response from the Minister?

Curiously, as an aside, there seems to be a tiny bit of buck-passing going on (IMHO). Varadkar says tolling is a matter for the NRA. I have spoken informally about this to a knowledgeable official in the NRA, and he tells me that such a decision would be a political one in the first instance.

Evidently no decision has been made one way or the other. In the event that tolling is decided upon, then what would happen is that the relevant statutory processes would be invoked, eg a new EIS would have to be undertaken.

Having said all that, it is acknowledged that a toll on a bypass would reduce its effectiveness (eg as happened in Fermoy a while back), and I gather that the NRA have been "told" not to toll in more recent times. "Told" was the word my informant used, which indicates that the NRA do not make the running on this issue.




EDIT: A thought occurs. If the funding mechanism for the GCOB has already been determined, what exactly is being proposed and can you link to the details that have been decided in that regard?

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

None of the work done so far on the GCOB project automatically precludes a toll.

So the breaking of planning permission is not a legal barrier?

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If a toll-free GCOB is already a fait accompli, why the need for a Dail question and why no definitive response from the Minister?

Politicians and their games. Deputy Kyne has to be seen to ask the question (given newspaper scaremongering and rampant idiocy)

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Curiously, as an aside, there seems to be a tiny bit of buck-passing going on (IMHO). Varadkar says tolling is a matter for the NRA. I have spoken informally about this to a knowledgeable official in the NRA, and he tells me that such a decision would be a political one in the first instance.

The political decision was apparently made 10 or so years ago when the scheme information was published. Otherwise they're be a plan for a toll plaza. All that's happening there is the usual two step of avoiding accountability.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Evidently no decision has been made one way or the other. In the event that tolling is decided upon, then what would happen is that the relevant statutory processes would be invoked, eg a new EIS would have to be undertaken.

You'd just contradicted your first point there. If there was anything in the project that would allow a toll then a new EIS would not be required. Added to that CPOs would have to be changed or new ones added to cover the extra new land that would be required to build a plaza & supporting infrastructure.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Having said all that, it is acknowledged that a toll on a bypass would reduce its effectiveness (eg as happened in Fermoy a while back), and I gather that the NRA have been "told" not to toll in more recent times. "Told" was the word my informant used, which indicates that the NRA do not make the running on this issue.

The NRA just build the roads and negotiate the contracts, they don't fund them. The funding will come from DoT for building, then DoE for maintenance. So "telling" them is just another case of the administrative two step.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

EDIT: A thought occurs. If the funding mechanism for the GCOB has already been determined, what exactly is being proposed and can you link to the details that have been decided in that regard?

I linked this doc earlier, so I'll link it again. The GCOB is one of the 4 proposed projects in the Second PPP Roads Programme, which was announced in 2009. As I said earlier there are no proposed tolls on any of these projects.

The PPP model allows for, but does not dictate tolling. It means that the contractor will have to fund some or all of the initial cost of the project, with the government paying them back over a set time. For more coverage on this I suggest you take a read of the M17/18, NX & N11 schemes on the roads forum, as it has been done to death (especially since BAM are having trouble getting funding for these projects, despite having won them with financing "in place").

Iwannahurl

The NRA and DoT may well be at Lanigan's Ball together, but, as quoted above, it was an NRA official who gave me certain parts of that information.

If you disagree, and if in the (unlikely) event that you are sufficiently bothered about it, you can take it up with the relevant parties yourself.

antoobrien

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If you disagree, and if in the (unlikely) event that you are sufficiently bothered about it, you can take it up with the relevant parties yourself.

Why bother, the NRA can't decide to toll a road.

http://www.nra.ie/GeneralTollingInformation/

The National Roads Authority is empowered by the Local Government (Toll Roads) Act, 1979 to charge and collect tolls for the use of certain roads by vehicles. Before a toll may be imposed on a road, a bye-law under the Act must be passed.

So in summary there have been no bye-laws passed regarding GCOB, the decision toll the road rests with the DoT (as the funding department) and there's no planning permission for a toll plaza.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Leo Varadkar's written answer was that it was a matter for the NRA

That's his answer for anything to do with roads when questioned in the Dáil.

The only time he gives more info is when the info will make him look good in some way, shape or form