Keep abortion out of Ireland

oldrnwisr

koth wrote: »

oldrnwsr explained that the 2008 data is the latest available.

Thanks for that koth but it seems that since my last post on the matter a more up-to-date report was published.

Delirium

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Thanks for that koth but it seems that since my last post on the matter a more up-to-date report was published.

no problem, half expected you to have more recent data.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Has one single pregnant woman died due to lack of abortion services? The numbers of woman who died during pregnancy are very small and they did not die because they were refused abortion.

But that's not what you were being pulled up on. You said Ireland without abortion is the safest place to have a baby. That's not true based on the data that oldrnwsr provided.

qrrgprgua

koth wrote: »

But that's not what you were being pulled up on. You said Ireland without abortion is the safest place to have a baby. That's not true based on the data that oldrnwsr provided.

and would abortion make it safer? It no women are dying becuase we don't have it then its obvious we don't need it.

Delirium

qrrgprgua wrote: »

and would abortion make it safer?

Possibly. The data that oldrnwsr shows that having abortion as an option doesn't make a country less safe for pregnant women.

28064212

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Has one single pregnant woman died due to lack of abortion services? The numbers of woman who died during pregnancy are very small and they did not die because they were refused abortion.

So when you think the figures back your point up, they are valid to use. The second you find out that they don't, you try to dismiss them as irrelevant. Your standard modus operandi so

qrrgprgua

28064212 wrote: »

So when you think the figures back your point up, they are valid to use. The second you find out that they don't, you try to dismiss them as irrelevant. Your standard modus operandi so

Well if you are going to use 2008 figures i will use 2009 unicef figures that state ireland is the safest place to have a baby?

Unless you are saying unicefs figures are wrong.


And again I ask..... Would abortion make the mortality rates any better? If we had abortion nothing would change,..

philologos

oldrnwisr wrote: »

PDN wrote: »

I lived in the UK for a number of years. I personally know of a number of occasions where people received abortions for all kinds of trivial reasons (eg one girl was due to be a bridesmaid at a wedding and the dress wouldn't fit her if she continued with her pregnancy).

So all those figures prove is that people will lie in order to get what they want, and that there are plenty of doctors who are prepared to connive with such lying.

And this is an issue of great concern. I think most people in Ireland are open to abortion being performed in extreme cases (eg where the mother's life is genuinely at risk, or where the unborn child is a product of rape). But what has happened in other countries suggests that this will lead to virtual abortion on demand, for often trivial reasons and authorised with a nod and a knowing wink - and I think huge numbers of people in Ireland are not willing for that to happen.

I wasn't attempting to prove anything about abortion just refute philologos' claim.

I agree with you the reasons are probably trivial and performed with the complicity of doctors acting unethically. If you look at it 97.9% of all abortions were done on the basis of a threat to the mother's mental health.

As for the Irish situation, yes I would be open to abortion in cases of medical necessity and rape but I am undecided about abortion on demand. My general feeling is that abortion for trivial reasons is wrong but I find the arguments on both sides are pretty poor.

I don't think you've refuted it other than to say that people are quote good at claiming something fits into a category when it clearly doesn't. If abortion was strictly limited to those criterion there'd be a lot less in the UK.

oldrnwisr

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Has one single pregnant woman died due to lack of abortion services? The numbers of woman who died during pregnancy are very small and they did not die because they were refused abortion.

First of all, yes women have died because of the lack of abortion services. Lots of them. In fact, the WHO have stated that women seeking black market abortions because of the lack of legal abortion services account for 13% of maternal deaths.

Secondly, yes, the number of women who died in this country during pregnancy in 2010 was very small, just four. However, we don't have any data on the causes of deaths of those four women so we can't rule out any causal factor including being refused an abortion.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

and would abortion make it safer? It no women are dying becuase we don't have it then its obvious we don't need it.

Correlation is not causation.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Well if you are going to use 2008 figures i will use 2009 unicef figures that state ireland is the safest place to have a baby?

Unless you are saying unicefs figures are wrong.


And again I ask..... Would abortion make the mortality rates any better? If we had abortion nothing would change,..

First of all, the statistics are compiled and analysed by the WHO, UNICEF and UNFPA but are published by the WHO. UNICEF don't publish MMR stats.

Secondly, even if you had 2009 figures from UNICEF (which you didn't bother to link to in your post) the figures I posted are from 2010 which are the most recent available (at least until next year).

Finally, in our country with the general health of our citizens, our strong education system and first-world healthcare system, having legal abortion is not likely to have any effect on our MMR. Yes, nothing would change. That's the point. You tried to argue that not having abortion is keeping our MMR low. It's not.

philologos wrote: »

I don't think you've refuted it other than to say that people are quote good at claiming something fits into a category when it clearly doesn't. If abortion was strictly limited to those criterion there'd be a lot less in the UK.

In my post here I pointed to the section of the Abortion Act which details the statutory grounds for a legal abortion in the UK.

You then claimed here that very little abortions are performed for those four reasons.

I then posted the statistics here which show that, in fact, all abortions are performed for one of these four reasons.

Ergo, claim refuted.

Now, that aside, I would admit at the very least there is a possibility that some women feign a mental health issue in order to obtain an abortion and I agree that if these criteria were applied more rigorously there would be far fewer abortions in the UK. In fact, I think that's something that should be implemented.

philologos

PDN is bang on when he posts the following:

So all those figures prove is that people will lie in order to get what they want, and that there are plenty of doctors who are prepared to connive with such lying.

These figures aren't much proof other than that people can say anything in order to get an abortion. If people stuck firmly by those 4 principles you've laid out, we would see a lot less abortions. The reality is that a pro-choice mindset like has developed in Britain, and seeing it in action here helps in understanding this, goes well beyond those four criteria. Unless you're telling me that nearly 200,000 abortions are all performed because of serious risk to the life of the mother?

The statistics don't mean much when one can very clearly see what is happening on the ground.

oldrnwisr

philologos wrote: »

PDN is bang on when he posts the following:


These figures aren't much proof other than that people can say anything in order to get an abortion. If people stuck firmly by those 4 principles you've laid out, we would see a lot less abortions. The reality is that a pro-choice mindset like has developed in Britain, and seeing it in action here helps in understanding this, goes well beyond those four criteria. Unless you're telling me that nearly 200,000 abortions are all performed because of serious risk to the life of the mother?

The statistics don't mean much when one can very clearly see what is happening on the ground.

Yes, I agreed with PDN in my response to him. Are there women who lied about a mental health issue to get an abortion? Very probably. How many? There is no way to determine that.

I never said that all those abortions were performed because of a risk to the life of the mother. I pointed out that the statistics show that 97.9% or about 185,000 were performed because of a threat to the mental health of the mother. But please don't let me get in the way of your strawman.

Look, for the sake of clarity let me declare my position on this issue, once and for all. I have been reticent to do so because a) it's an incredibly emotive topic and b) there are some really awful arguments on both sides of this issue. I am in favour of legal abortion where there is a serious risk to the life of the mother and in cases of incest or rape. I have yet to see anything to tip the balance one way or the other in favour of abortion on demand. I think that even if we are to go down the road of legal abortion, the first thing we need to do is develop a better and more comprehensive sexual health education system. Like PDN said, abstinence, fidelity and contraception. Unfortunately, with the influence of the Catholic Church in this country, the latter is always going to be a problem.

FullblownRose

It's been pointed out that abortion should technically already be allowed here in accordance with the will of the people.

I'm shocked at how that fact has been consistently skimmed over.

qrrgprgua

FullblownRose wrote: »

It's been pointed out that abortion should technically already be allowed here in accordance with the will of the people.

I'm shocked at how that fact has been consistently skimmed over.

Its allowed and carried out here already if the mothers life is at risk. I know from a friends personal experience. Doctors are not sitting by letting mothers die who need treatment.

FullblownRose

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Its allowed and carried out here already if the mothers life is at risk. I know from a friends personal experience. Doctors are not sitting by letting mothers die who need treatment.

Your personal exerience tells me nothing, to be honest. I don't know the circumstances, I'm not asking the details either as they aren't my business, but to hear a story second hand from a friend doesn't mean a lot to me. Sounds like a very rare exception if it even occured the way you believe it did.

FullblownRose

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Has one single pregnant woman died due to lack of abortion services? The numbers of woman who died during pregnancy are very small and they did not die because they were refused abortion.

What about the amount of women whose lives are a living death? It's not good enough to expect a woman to have a baby and exist, just about, and the same for the child- or to expect her to give the baby up to someone who 'wants' it- that is unrealistic too. I get the feeling, excuse me if I'm wrong, that even if suicide was an immediate risk, the pro life people here would still find abortion to be unconscionable. There is no justification in some peoples' eyes. There is no compassion and a complete absence of understanding.

28064212

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Well if you are going to use 2008 figures i will use 2009 unicef figures that state ireland is the safest place to have a baby?

Unless you are saying unicefs figures are wrong.

What Unicef figures? You haven't posted any, the only ones you posted were 2 months ago and you used the 2008 figures, which were totally debunked by oldrnwisr. Then you made the exact same statement in today's post (without the reference).

qrrgprgua wrote: »

And again I ask..... Would abortion make the mortality rates any better? If we had abortion nothing would change,..

Exactly one person made the connection between the availability of abortion and maternity mortality rates: YOU. You were the one who decided they were relevant. Until of course you were shown that the figures didn't support your argument, and now you're trying to squirm your way out of it and try to claim they're not relevant any more, exactly the same tack you used with the "will of the people" discussion this question, just moved on to your flawed mortality rate argument:

Provide me with a straight answer to these questions (if you're capable of it): do you support legislation that would provide for women to receive an abortion where suicide is a substantial risk to the life of the mother? If your answer is no, please explain why the will of the people should be over-ridden

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Its allowed and carried out here already if the mothers life is at risk. I know from a friends personal experience. Doctors are not sitting by letting mothers die who need treatment.

There are a number of conditions where abortions are not available, and the "problem" is shipped off to England. The most obvious being the risk of suicide. Which reminds me, you never answered

FullblownRose

The question of faking suicidal feelings seems a bit absurd to me. Abortion is expensive, especially if it requires foreign travel etc., it can be painful and it's undignified. It carries a huge stigma too. Anyone who thinks abortion's a lifestyle choice or a lazy way out or a form of contraception needs to try to put themself in the woman's shoes and walk a mile, so to speak. I suspect there are people who don't have the life experience to do it.

georgieporgy

When this happy little girl was just a "clump of cells" her mum was offered a termination as a way of treating her oral cancer. Lucky for her,the parents opted to treat the cancer instead.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2163076/Surgeons-save-unborn-baby-removing-mouth-tumour-WOMB.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Delirium

Very lucky parents that they were able to get access to Dr Quintero and his pioneering foetal machine. Excellent to see science able to help a child that had little chance of survival. It means that in time the rare tumour would be easily treated by most hospitals.

qrrgprgua

FullblownRose wrote: »

The question of faking suicidal feelings seems a bit absurd to me. Abortion is expensive, especially if it requires foreign travel etc., it can be painful and it's undignified. It carries a huge stigma too. Anyone who thinks abortion's a lifestyle choice or a lazy way out or a form of contraception needs to try to put themself in the woman's shoes and walk a mile, so to speak. I suspect there are people who don't have the life experience to do it.

In Britain its abortion in demand .. you want it you get it. They don't ask a lot of questions.

Abortion is not expensive... pretty cheap to get to uk, do it all the time.

for most women it is the lazy choice. Its getting rid of an inconvenience.

I don't need to put myself in their shoes all I need to do is read the testimonies of those who did it to know the reason why and the regrets they live with.

Abortion is a selfish act.

Morbert

qrrgprgua wrote: »

In Britain its abortion in demand .. you want it you get it. They don't ask a lot of questions.

Abortion is not expensive... pretty cheap to get to uk, do it all the time.

for most women it is the lazy choice. Its getting rid of an inconvenience.

I don't need to put myself in their shoes all I need to do is read the testimonies of those who did it to know the reason why and the regrets they live with.

Abortion is a selfish act.

Eating food is also a selfish act. It needs to be more than selfish to be illegal.

Morbert

georgieporgy wrote: »

When this happy little girl was just a "clump of cells" her mum was offered a termination as a way of treating her oral cancer. Lucky for her,the parents opted to treat the cancer instead.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2163076/Surgeons-save-unborn-baby-removing-mouth-tumour-WOMB.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Before this child was conceived, the parents could have used contraception. Lucky for her, they chose not to.

FullblownRose

No, it's not pretty cheap . The average cost of the trip and procedure and accomodation, rail or taxi fares, et. cetera is 2,000 euro. If you think that's cheap, you're doing very well indeed and it's no wonder you can't seem to grasp the concept women in Ireland being too poor to have a baby.

You're in a privileged position if you can travel at all, compared to some of these women, some of whom don't possess a passport because they can't afford one. Which is another expense when they find themselves having to go abroad to an abortion clinic.

FullblownRose

qrrgprgua wrote: »

In Britain its abortion in demand .. you want it you get it. They don't ask a lot of questions.

Abortion is not expensive... pretty cheap to get to uk, do it all the time.

for most women it is the lazy choice. Its getting rid of an inconvenience.

I don't need to put myself in their shoes all I need to do is read the testimonies of those who did it to know the reason why and the regrets they live with.

Abortion is a selfish act.

It's your opinion that women are lazy and selfish. Not a fact. You don't seem to have any empathy for anyone who doesn't follow the path in life you think they should follow.

How can you make a sweeping, damning judgement about a group of people you've never met without putting yourself in their shoes ?


Ok. Try reading the testimonies of women who felt it was the best decision too. It's the best way to develop a balanced view.

qrrgprgua

FullblownRose wrote: »

It's your opinion that women are lazy and selfish. Not a fact. You don't seem to have any empathy for anyone who doesn't follow the path in life you think they should follow.

How can you make a sweeping, damning judgement about a group of people you've never met without putting yourself in their shoes ?


Ok. Try reading the testimonies of women who felt it was the best decision too. It's the best way to develop a balanced view.

Let it be damning. There are many things I don't like. But I can respect people for them. You seem to think we are going to lower the gravity of abortion and respect people who do it?


As for the principle of having an abortion its very clear cut. Its wrong. Its Selfish. Its not 1940's Ireland. There is support. There are options. Abortion is a coup out. Its Murder plain and simple.

Reality is.. Women are aborting Children,, not concepts... not a lifestyle.. not opinions.. Children.. HUMAN BEINGS.

FullblownRose

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Let it be damning. There are many things I don't like. But I can respect people for them. You seem to think we are going to lower the gravity of abortion and respect people who do it?


As for the principle of having an abortion its very clear cut. Its wrong. Its Selfish. Its not 1940's Ireland. There is support. There are options. Abortion is a coup out. Its Murder plain and simple.[/QUOT

I disagree strongly, but you're entitled to your opinion, fair enough

qrrgprgua

FullblownRose wrote: »

I disagree strongly, but you're entitled to your opinion, fair enough

If we were talking about saa Gay couples lifestyle. I could say I don't agree but I can respect their choices.. Its their life..

or Couples having casual sex.. I don't agree as it does not have commitment. But its their lives.and their choices..

But I can Never Respect someone who advocates abortion as an option because their "opinion" is ending another human life without consent.

Abortion is black and white. The act is murder, plain and simple.

I would never harm a woman who aborted or harass her.. Whats done can't be undone. But I will always strongly defend the right to life and the immoral principle of abortion.

NaasPreacher

qrrgprgua wrote: »

If we were talking about saa Gay couples lifestyle. I could say I don't agree but I can respect their choices.. Its their life..

or Couples having casual sex.. I don't agree as it does not have commitment. But its their lives.and their choices..

But I can Never Respect someone who advocates abortion as an option because their "opinion" is ending another human life without consent.

Abortion is black and white. The act is murder, plain and simple.

I would never harm a woman who aborted or harass her.. Whats done can't be undone. But I will always strongly defend the right to life and the immoral principle of abortion.

Very well put, IMNSHO

FullblownRose

qrrgprgua wrote: »

If we were talking about saa Gay couples lifestyle. I could say I don't agree but I can respect their choices.. Its their life..

or Couples having casual sex.. I don't agree as it does not have commitment. But its their lives.and their choices..

But I can Never Respect someone who advocates abortion as an option because their "opinion" is ending another human life without consent.

Abortion is black and white. The act is murder, plain and simple.

I would never harm a woman who aborted or harass her.. Whats done can't be undone. But I will always strongly defend the right to life and the immoral principle of abortion.

No point in reiterating what I've already said, my views are contradictory to yours obviously but we all want to stand up for our principles and part of that involves educating each other by sharing our perspectives on things.

qrrgprgua

FullblownRose wrote: »

No point in reiterating what I've already said, my views are contradictory to yours obviously but we all want to stand up for our principles and part of that involves educating each other by sharing our perspectives on things.

If we were talking about anything other than abortion i would entertain being educated,, but when it comes to abortion my objection is absolute. Because we are talking life and death of another person. + we are in Christianity forum.

FullblownRose

qrrgprgua wrote: »

If we were talking about anything other than abortion i would entertain being educated,, but when it comes to abortion my objection is absolute. Because we are talking life and death of another person. + we are in Christianity forum.

I'm not suggesting you change your stance. I consider it educational to hear opposing viewpoints, that's all.

To only converse with people who shared the same worldview would bore me and I'd hate to be that insular. (Not saying *you* are insular, but I would feel like I was, if I eschewed all alternative viewpoints)

28064212

qrrgprgua wrote: »

If we were talking about anything other than abortion i would entertain being educated,, but when it comes to abortion my objection is absolute. Because we are talking life and death of another person. + we are in Christianity forum.

So democracy and maternity mortality stats actually mean nothing to you in this discussion? You could have saved a lot of time and hypocrisy by stating that at the start

FullblownRose

28064212 wrote: »

So democracy and maternity mortality stats actually mean nothing to you in this discussion? You could have saved a lot of time and hypocrisy by stating that at the start

Read between ze lines it's all there

qrrgprgua

28064212 wrote: »

So democracy and maternity mortality stats actually mean nothing to you in this discussion? You could have saved a lot of time and hypocrisy by stating that at the start

Why can't debate the facts.....

28064212

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Why can't debate the facts.....

Because you get them so wrong? Despite being told the real facts on several occasions.

qrrgprgua

28064212 wrote: »

Because you get them so wrong? Despite being told the real facts on several occasions.

And when I ask if these real facts would have saved any of the women who died due to pregnancy complications due to lack of abortion in Ireland the answer was... ? Silence. Because the answer is 0.

No lives have been put at risk in Ireland because we don't have abortion.

Or are you trying to muddy the waters with a topic that has no bearing on the debate about abortion.


Like Clare Daly.. "the bill was simply legislating for the X-case"

then she comes out saying. "introducing the bill on behalf of the 150,000 women who have been “exported” from this country to seek abortion services."

Somehow implying that the 150,000 women who aborted in the UK were all in the same boat as the x case.

28064212

How are you not getting this? YOU brought up the maternity mortality stats, YOU brought up the democracy argument. Then when they didn't fit your position, you tried to pretend they weren't relevant.

You still haven't provided an answer to this question by the way: do you support legislation that would provide for women to receive an abortion where suicide is a substantial risk to the life of the mother? If your answer is no, please explain why the will of the people should be over-ridden

qrrgprgua

28064212 wrote: »

How are you not getting this? YOU brought up the maternity mortality stats, YOU brought up the democracy argument. Then when they didn't fit your position, you tried to pretend they weren't relevant.

You still haven't provided an answer to this question by the way: do you support legislation that would provide for women to receive an abortion where suicide is a substantial risk to the life of the mother? If your answer is no, please explain why the will of the people should be over-ridden

No I don't support any changes in Legislation. Our current laws give ample powers to medical professionals to save the life of the mother, these powers include that of terminating the pregnancy to save the mothers life.

No Pregnant women have died in Ireland from Suicide because they were denied help and support to deal with the pregnancy.

The ploy by the Daly camp is to introduce abortion on demand by the back door.

Ireland has the lowest Maternal mortality rate. No women have died in Ireland due to lack of abortion facilities.

What is needed is Support for women who can't manage their pregnancy. Not pointing the door to a abortion clinic to get rid of the child.

Prof Turner said: "We still have one of the lowest maternal mortality ratios in the world.

oldrnwisr

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Ireland has the lowest Maternal mortality rate. No women have died in Ireland due to lack of abortion facilities.

What is needed is Support for women who can't manage their pregnancy. Not pointing the door to a abortion clinic to get rid of the child.

Once again, Ireland DOES NOT have the lowest maternal mortality ratio. It has the joint 11th lowest. Your quote says "one" of the lowest, not the lowest, although I'm not sure that 11th even counts as one of the lowest. Lying is not going to help your argument.

In 2010, four women died during pregnancy. Now, we don't know how these women died a) because such information is not contained within the WHO statistics and b) because Ireland is particularly bad at compiling such statistics as revealed in the ABC v Ireland case in the ECHR. So because we don't know you cannot claim that you know it had nothing to do with abortion.

The maternal mortality rate, as high or low as it might be is not (in this country anyway) affected by abortion. It is completely irrelevant. But you introduced it as a topic so don't attempt to shy away from that.

qrrgprgua

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Once again, Ireland DOES NOT have the lowest maternal mortality ratio. It has the joint 11th lowest. Your quote says "one" of the lowest, not the lowest, although I'm not sure that 11th even counts as one of the lowest. Lying is not going to help your argument.

In 2010, four women died during pregnancy. Now, we don't know how these women died a) because such information is not contained within the WHO statistics and b) because Ireland is particularly bad at compiling such statistics as revealed in the ABC v Ireland case in the ECHR. So because we don't know you cannot claim that you know it had nothing to do with abortion.

The maternal mortality rate, as high or low as it might be is not (in this country anyway) affected by abortion. It is completely irrelevant. But you introduced it as a topic so don't attempt to shy away from that.

Excuse me... We DO know the reasons why these women died.. You can use the FOI and get the HSE reports on their deaths.. and none due to lack of abortion facilities.

The numbers of women dying during pregnancy are very small. A friend of mine lost his wife and child some years ago and they carry out extensive reports on the reasons behind these deaths. The reports are shared with the families.

Actually come to think of it I will dig out the Deaths relating to Abortion complications in the UK. Conveniently not widely publicised.

oldrnwisr

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Excuse me... We DO know the reasons why these women died.. You can use the FOI and get the HSE reports on their deaths.. and none due to lack of abortion facilities.

OK, let's see them then. Since you claim to know then you must have seen the reports so let's have links to them. There's only four for 2010 so it shouldn't be too much trouble.

FullblownRose

''... + we are in Christianity forum.''

Are non Christians unwelcome?

qrrgprgua

oldrnwisr wrote: »

OK, let's see them then. Since you claim to know then you must have seen the reports so let's have links to them. There's only four for 2010 so it shouldn't be too much trouble.

Causes, haemorrhage, pre-eclampsia, ectopic pregnancy.

MDE don't go into details. Simply because the numbers are so small. Enquires are issued to families.

feel free to email them mde@mdeireland.com

What they can say are what the causes were not. And the women did not die because they were denied abortion. In the case of Ectopic Pregnancy as matter of course the pregnancy is terminated.

philologos

Morbert wrote: »

Before this child was conceived, the parents could have used contraception. Lucky for her, they chose not to.

Contraceptives != abortion. Surely that's obvious?

Contraceptives prevent conception. Abortion destroys an already existing life.

Delirium

philologos wrote: »

Contraceptives != abortion. Surely that's obvious?

Contraceptives prevent conception. Abortion destroys an already existing life.

I don't believe that was the point that Morbert was making.

philologos

I'll let Morbert respond, and see. In context it seems like he was comparing abortion and contraception.

oldrnwisr

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Causes, haemorrhage, pre-eclampsia, ectopic pregnancy.

MDE don't go into details. Simply because the numbers are so small. Enquires are issued to families.

feel free to email them mde@mdeireland.com

What they can say are what the causes were not. And the women did not die because they were denied abortion. In the case of Ectopic Pregnancy as matter of course the pregnancy is terminated.

Thank you for the link.

Once they respond, I will post the answer here.

However, in the meantime there are a couple of points worth noting about this "evidence".

First of all, it is mentioned several times on the website that the enquiries made by MDE are confidential. This makes it unlikely that, even if the cause of death are disclosed that the circumstances surrounding said death will be similarly disclosed.

Secondly, MDE point out that their data is published in triennial reports, with the most recent report being 2006-2008. This means that the 2010 data is not yet publicly available so I'd love to know how you got it.

Also, the existing data compiled by MDE only covers the UK since Ireland only began to participate in data collection in 2009.

In any event, we'll wait and see.

Now, while we're waiting, let me ask you a question, let's suppose that the data for the four deaths in 2010 are not related to abortion (a point I will be happy to concede), what then? How does such a fact help your argument. Whether or not Ireland needs abortion has no bearing on whether or not Ireland should have abortion.

28064212

qrrgprgua wrote: »

No I don't support any changes in Legislation. Our current laws give ample powers to medical professionals to save the life of the mother, these powers include that of terminating the pregnancy to save the mothers life.

You didn't answer the full question. If you don't support changes, why should the will of the people, that you seemed to be so protective of and fully behind, should be ignored??

qrrgprgua

28064212 wrote: »

You didn't answer the full question. If you don't support changes, why should the will of the people, that you seemed to be so protective of and fully behind, should be ignored??

Because as we have seen in history what the people decide is not always morally right. While we point to the referendum to show the people don't want abortion, the bottom line is that the right to life should not be based on what people say or don't say. It should stand alone and above any democratic decision. While in Ireland the right to life is supported by a majority it does not mean the Rights of the unborn change.


Pro-Choice remove the rights an unborn child has. It reduces life to opinions and speculation. In one country you can abort up to 12 weeks in another its 24 weeks.

No matter how many referendums we have and no matter what the results are. Killing a Child, having an abortion will always be wrong. Its murder.

The basic human right to life of a Child that exists should never be up for debate.

StudentDad

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Because as we have seen in history what the people decide is not always morally right.

Who the hell are you to decide what is morally right?

SD

qrrgprgua

StudentDad wrote: »

Who the hell are you to decide what is morally right?

SD

I am Nobody. That's the point. Nobody has the right to decide the existence of a Child that already exists. Its morally wrong to kill another human being.