MS sufferer rides wheelchair for 2 hours to kill herself

Chuck Stone

Augmerson wrote: »

I am against giving the government any say in the dying process, mark my words they will **** it up.

The government doesn't have to have anything to do with it other than decriminalise it. It could be organised by a charity, or some sort of NGO, or trust.

The King of Moo

Fenian Army wrote: »

Right thing would have been for her to get the psychological help she needed. Not fair or correct to say that everyone with that stage of MS should be killing themselves as thats their only option.

If she really wanted to kill herself she should have done it a better way which lessened the risk to others. Leaving yourself floating in a canal is not doing that.

She was immobile from the chest down, she had other options. And no, I'm not going to list a variety of ways in which she could have done it, thats very bad tasted. Use your imagination.

I've never said that euthenasia is wrong have I? Only concern I have about it is that people with similar disabilities might feel obliged to do it to lessen financial hardships on their family etc.

That can only help so much. She wasn't simply depressed; she wanted to avoid getting into a situation where she would've been completely helpless.

She had other forms of suicide to consider, yes, but not many with the certainty of death involved in drowning with no-one around.

Stavro Mueller

It needs to be decriminalised, that's for certain. If one of that woman's family had brought her out to Switzerland, they ran the risk of being prosecuted for it.

There's also an issue regarding the person/people who want to help the afflicted person die. It's easy to talk about pulling plugs, passing pills etc. When it comes to it, not everyone can find it within themselves to take that final step to help the person die. I do think that some sort of organisation needs to be set up to help with this. As to who would regulate them, that's another matter.

AudreyHepburn

Everyone should have the right to die, if it comes to it. Equally I think everything possible should be done prevent a person from getting to the stage where they feeling dying is better than living. But if they are determined then I am all for them dying with dignity at their own hand.

Getting this type of debilitating disease is one of my fears. Imagine knowing you were going end up unable move or remember who you are?

RIP Carol.

FLOOPER

The King of Moo wrote: »

I agree that care aimed at the psychological suffering of people with debilitating illnesses is essential.

I just think that for some people the loss of quality of life is too high, from their perspective, and they can quite rationally decide that they don't want to carry on living.

Apologies for only getting back to this point now.

But just to cap my original point I think that it's only 'their perspective' that is askew so to speak. It's the same for those suffering from severe mental illness. Their perspective goes out the window.

So I believe that those who have a want to end their lives suffering psychologically from a physical disorder or suffering psychologically from a mental disorder cannot rationally decide to kill themselves.

Essentially I'm saying is that if there is no anguish there is no pain. If you can treat the mind and ease the anguish then perspective is changed.

We should maybe ask why so many people with similar conditions wish not to end their lives maybe?

I don't know the answer but I believe that more thought needs to be applied to this issue.

I have every sympathy with people and their families in this predicament.

AudreyHepburn

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The woman asked to die in dignity. She was not allowed to so she felt she'd no option but to throw herself into a canal.

It's her cowardly loved ones and a cowardly society and those useful idiots who think only god gives you life (Lol) so only he should take it that are responsible for the collateral trauma exactly because she was denied the option of dying in dignity.

That's a bit harsh. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute. Imagine the person you love the most asked you one day to help the die.

Do you honestly think could say yes and not feeling devasted, angry, afraid etc. Of course you would be afraid of losing those you love. I know I would.

For all of us here, I think we could do better than lable this poor woman's family as cowards etc. There's far more to it than that imo.

The King of Moo

FLOOPER wrote: »

Apologies for only getting back to this point now.

But just to cap my original point I think that it's only 'their perspective' that is askew so to speak. It's the same for those suffering from severe mental illness. Their perspective goes out the window.

So I believe that those who have a want to end their lives suffering psychologically from a physical disorder or suffering psychologically from a mental disorder cannot rationally decide to kill themselves.

Essentially I'm saying is that if there is no anguish there is no pain. If you can treat the mind and ease the anguish then perspective is changed.

We should maybe ask why so many people with similar conditions wish not to end their lives maybe?

I don't know the answer but I believe that more thought needs to be applied to this issue.

I have every sympathy with people and their families in this predicament.

I think there's more to it than just their perspective that makes people with debilitating or terminal illnesses want to kill themselves though.

In this case, the woman's sister said she was unable to do anything for herself, and her condition was only going to worsen.
I can see how in such a case, someone could rationally decide that their quality of life was so diminished (especially considered that this woman was previously able-bodied) that it wasn't worth carrying on.

I can't imagine how I'd manage to cope if I lost most or all ability to look after myself or do anything.

byhookorbycrook

I have MS so am probably in a better place to comment than most. Fortunately I am still ambulatory (over reasonably sort distances) and I can still drive and work. My life is curtailed in many ways, but I do Ok.

Last March I had a ruptured appendix. As is common in MS infections, high temps and stress can temporarily exacerbate symptoms. My husband had to dress me to get me to hospital. He had to life me from the bed and tried to put me sitting, I fell off the bed as balance was gone. Took 20 mins to get me off the floor. Finally, he managed to dress me,I couldn't even put my feet into my shoes myself. Getting to the car -all ten yards, took another 20 mins, he had to put chairs in a line, so he could move me one to another.I had very little control of my bowels, but fortunately(!)I had "emptied the system" as I had felt unwell over 24 hours.That said, I worrried the whole way to hospital that I would soil/wet myself.I had to go to the ambulance entrance whereby two porters and my husband managed to get me into a wheelchair, bring me into A and E where I was lifted onto a trolley and both rails had to be put up in case I would fall off.

Glad to report,once appendix dealt with, I got back to myself, but it gave me a scary insight into what my future could be. If things get bad, I don't want to be a burden or pitied, but I want a say when enough is enough.

I take a drug called Tysabri because it helps slow disease progression. Each dose carried a less than 1,000 to 1 chance of giving me an incurable condition called PML. It has killed people and left others in a vegatitive state,do you think I would be taking this drug if I weren't scared of my life as being like I was last March??If I do contract PML, I want to know that I have options too.

Chuck Stone

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

That's a bit harsh. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute. Imagine the person you love the most asked you one day to help the die.

Okay cowardly was a bit harsh. Conceded.

But if I really loved someone and they had an ever decreasing quality of life and were suffering and asked me to help them end it in dignity wouldn't helping them have a dignified death be an act of love?

byhookorbycrook

Oh-and to Fenian Army, is I though counselling could cure MS, I'd be on it.
Every single day every muscle in my body aches -not an exaggeration, even the muscles on my scalp are tight,so brushing my hair hurts.My feet burn like they have been sunburnt all the time, even though I am on the maximum mediation for this.My ribcage muscles pull against each other (known as an MS hug,of all things)so when I drive/walk/lie down, I have to constantly dig a closed fist into them to try and stop them spasming.

Stavro Mueller

I don't think any of us can truly appreciate how this woman felt. I would differentiate what she was going through from other forms of depression. You can counsel someone til the cows come home but it's not going to help much if their situation cannot be helped. She was never going to get better and was facing into an abyss. Some people with MS accept their lot. Other people just can't take it any more and want to end it sooner. Who'd blame them?

AudreyHepburn

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Okay cowardly was a bit harsh. Conceded.

But if I really loved someone and they had an ever decreasing quality of life and were suffering and asked me to help them end it in dignity wouldn't helping them have a dignified death be an act of love?

Of course and I would absolutly be willing to help my loved one.

I just think people are reacting a little too harshly to the family in this case.

No-one wants to lose their loved ones and you would need to be made of stone not to be completely devastated if one of them asked you to help them die.

deise go deo

crazygeryy wrote: »

Its incredible that a person in that situation can't choose to end their own life in a controlled and peacefull way.what exactly is the law on it? is it simply a case that suicide is illegal?

Suicide is not illegal, helping somone to end their own lives is.

Chuck Stone

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

No-one wants to lose their loved ones and you would need to be made of stone not to be completely devastated if one of them asked you to help them die.

Absolutely.

I know I'd struggle terribly with such a situation. I'd have serious trouble putting down a suffering cat that I cared about never mind a loved one.

In a way it's a bad situation that a person needs to ask a loved one at all to assist them with euthanasia. Why can't it be a personal decision that doesn't involve putting loved ones through the trauma (or maybe that's worse I don't know?).

I just think that its being a criminal offence is heaping even more trauma on loved ones so end of life options should be on the table rather than the 'head-in-the-sand-approach'.

There are no easy answers but there never are when it comes to life and death (thankfully).

Sisko

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

life isn't precious all the time for everyone.

Fair play to her for having the courage to keep her destiny in her own hands.

Could not agree more.

Lone Stone

euthanasia is a double edged sword, i dont think i could live with myself if i chose to help some one do this and my mother has ms and i know this is going to come up at some point. But it would kill me to do it.

Teyla Emmagan

I've heard a few debates on the radio on this issue, and generally, what would appear to me to be the 'reasonable opinion' (i.e. that our loved ones, who are proven to be of sound mind, should have the right to end their own lives with dignity if their lives no longer become tenable to them), is basically always shot down by those who think assisted suicide is the 'thin edge of the wedge'.

I don't know if it's people coming from a religious view point, or those who are also 'pro life' in general, but so far it's a case of those who shout loudest being heard. For that reason I think that, in this country at least, we are an awful long way away from any debate about assisted suicide getting a fair hearing. In general, the older generation tend to be hugely against this, and for that reason I guess (given their voting power), no political party will currently touch the issue.

To me it seems reasonable that we should be able to put a system in place whereby anyone who wishes to die should have their mental state assessed by a series of professionals to ensure they are of 'sound mind' when making such a decision. And that we would then be able to help them implement that decision. That to me seems to be something a mature and loving society should be able to do. At the moment however the 'oh this will mean grannies and mentally ill people and those who don't contribute to society all being euthanased against their will etc' side of the debate seem to be winning out however.

There was a lady here last year who was planning on going to Dignitas to end her own life who got a call from the Guards the day before she was due to fly (tipped off by a helpful travel agent) saying that the friend who was going with her would be persecuted for assisting her death if they travelled. So they did not (can you imagine the emotional pain that must have caused, given all the preparations that must have gone into the journey?). And that lady took her own life regardless. I'm not sure of the circumstances, but I do know that it would have been kinder to have let her die in the way she saw fit, and not by taking a drug overdose by herself and potentially dying alone, in pain, and in fear.

The UK are much further along the path to a resolution on this issue then we are (thanks to the bravery of people such as Terry Pratchett), and I imagine that once they have resolved something we will eventually follow. That will not be for some time though doubtless, and in the meantime many other Irish people will be doomed to live agonising lives, trapped in a prison of their own decaying flesh and unable to exercise any self will. It's an unspeakably cruel end to inflict on those we love in my opinion.

EGAR

I am pro choice when it comes to ending ones life in cases like this. I would do the same. It is the one last gesture of love and compassion we give our animals, to end their suffering and let them go with dignity.

But we do not afford ourselves this courtesy. I would do it for a loved one and I hope a loved one would do it for me if I would not be able to do it myself.

Fenian Army

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Oh-and to Fenian Army, is I though counselling could cure MS, I'd be on it.
Every single day every muscle in my body aches -not an exaggeration, even the muscles on my scalp are tight,so brushing my hair hurts.My feet burn like they have been sunburnt all the time, even though I am on the maximum mediation for this.My ribcage muscles pull against each other (known as an MS hug,of all things)so when I drive/walk/lie down, I have to constantly dig a closed fist into them to try and stop them spasming.

My friend died because of the selfishness of another person who thought it was a good idea to drown themselves, its NEVER a "good idea" or worthy of praise to drown yourself and put others at risk. Its not brave, its selfish.

Im not saying killing yourself necessarily is, but to do it in such a way which puts others at risk is.

byhookorbycrook

What options had she?It was the only bit of control over her life that she had.I'm sorry about your friend, but that incident should not cloud your judgement for others.

Fenian Army

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

What options had she?It was the only bit of control over her life that she had.I'm sorry about your friend, but that incident should not cloud your judgement for others.

If she really had he hart set on killing herself then she could have done so in a way which didn't put others at risk. "Euthanasia isn't available" is no excuse.

There are other ways she could have done it besides throwing herself into a deep body of water.

Not cloud my judgement? I dont know who was more devastated, his family or the family of the guy he tried to rescue, people drown ALL THE TIME from trying to rescue others, its a well known fact. Look at any town with a river running through it, throwing yourself into a river, or a canal which can be even more dangerous, is a terrible way to kill yourself, it puts others at risk.

Forgive me if I won't go "fair play" at the woman or sing her praises for killing herself in such a way, it was a 100% wrong.

byhookorbycrook

But you still haven't answered my question, how else could she manage?She had no movement in her legs and little enough anywhere else.

Suicide is never easy on those left, from family and friends to the gardaí, firebrigade etc.

EGAR

Fenian Army wrote: »

If she really had he hart set on killing herself then she could have done so in a way which didn't put others at risk. "Euthanasia isn't available" is no excuse.

There are other ways she could have done it besides throwing herself into a deep body of water.

Not cloud my judgement? I dont know who was more devastated, his family or the family of the guy he tried to rescue, people drown ALL THE TIME from trying to rescue others, its a well known fact. Look at any town with a river running through it, throwing yourself into a river, or a canal which can be even more dangerous, is a terrible way to kill yourself, it puts others at risk.

Forgive me if I won't go "fair play" at the woman or sing her praises for killing herself in such a way, it was a 100% wrong.

I think since you have no idea what she has been through, this is a call you cannot make.

Fenian Army

EGAR wrote: »

I think since you have no idea what she has been through, this is a call you cannot make.

Yes it ****in is

You and other fools might think its a good idea for people to toss themselves into rivers and canals and putting goodhearted passer bys into danger, but not me.

EGAR

Fenian Army wrote: »

Yes it ****in is

You and other fools might think its a good idea for people to toss themselves into rivers and canals and putting goodhearted passer bys into danger, but not me.

Great, name calling and swearing really makes for a good argument, well done! :rolleyes:

Defiler Of The Coffin

Fenian Army wrote: »

Yes it ****in is

You and other fools might think its a good idea for people to toss themselves into rivers and canals and putting goodhearted passer bys into danger, but not me.

Fools eh?

I don't think anyone here really thinks it was a good idea on her part, just a least-worst option borne out of complete desperation.

Again, can you not even see it from her perspective?

Fenian Army

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

But you still haven't answered my question, how else could she manage?She had no movement in her legs and little enough anywhere else.

Suicide is never easy on those left, from family and friends to the gardaí, firebrigade etc.

I already said I didnt want to start listing ways she could have done it, but if you insist, look at my last post


"A deep body of water"



I've said all I'm going to say on this subject now, its upsetting me. I just wanted the "fair play" brigade to cop that her killing herself, or indeed anyone killing themselves in such a way has a high chance of effecting someone else, or even causing the death of a third party. Sad the way that she ended up of course, but would people still be singing her praises if someone had died trying to rescue her? It didn't happen in this case, but it happens loads when people try to drown themselves, all over Ireland.

MrStuffins

Fenian Army wrote: »

If she really had he hart set on killing herself then she could have done so in a way which didn't put others at risk. "Euthanasia isn't available" is no excuse.

She didn't put anyone else in danger. She waited until the guys were on their break.

Look, it's really sad what happened to your friend but you'r letting it blind you IMO. This lady was going through hell and she ended it as best she could.

You don't seem to see this from the lady's point of view at all.

histories

Fenian Army wrote: »

Yes it ****in is

You and other fools might think its a good idea for people to toss themselves into rivers and canals and putting goodhearted passer bys into danger, but not me.

Which is exactly why euthanasia should be made legal so people don't have to resort to such measures.

Fenian Army

MrStuffins wrote: »

She didn't put anyone else in danger. She waited until the guys were on their break.

Look, it's really sad what happened to your friend but you'r letting it blind you IMO. This lady was going through hell and she ended it as best she could.

You don't seem to see this from the lady's point of view at all.

Of course she did, someone walks along, sees a body, doesn't know how long its been here, maybe only a few mins, and jumps in.

Einhard

As long as there are stringent controls to ensure that there is no abuse, then euthanasia should absolutely be legal.

The only reason its not is because our collective morality in this area is still guided by Christian theology rather than human compassion.

MrStuffins

Fenian Army wrote: »

Of course she did, someone walks along, sees a body, doesn't know how long its been here, maybe only a few mins, and jumps in.

But that didn't happen did it??

You are letting your own personal experience completely cloud everything that's gone on here!

Fenian Army

MrStuffins wrote: »

But that didn't happen did it??

You are letting your own personal experience completely cloud everything that's gone on here!

But it fcuking could have! Hence why its irresponsible to portray drowning yourself in a river or a canal as an acceptable thing to do!

MrStuffins

Fenian Army wrote: »

But it fcuking could have! Hence why its irresponsible to portray drowning yourself in a river or a canal as an acceptable thing to do!

Good. Point made!

The King of Moo

Fenian Army wrote: »

But it fcuking could have! Hence why its irresponsible to portray drowning yourself in a river or a canal as an acceptable thing to do!

But no-one's applauding what she did, rather lamenting the fact that she was driven to do it, and had no legal option to end her suffering.

I'm sorry for what happened to your friend, but I agree that it does seem to be clouding your judgement.

We all know that there's a risk of danger to another person if one drown's oneself, and I'm sure that crossed this woman's mind too, but there wasn't much else she could do.

Bruthal

prinz wrote: »

Remove the condition from the equation and what I see is a depressed woman taking her own life.

Yes, remove the core problem that was destroying her life and then its only a matter of treating her depression. Total nonsense that.

AudreyHepburn

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Why can't it be a personal decision that doesn't involve putting loved ones through the trauma (or maybe that's worse I don't know?).

I would definitly say it would be worse not to tell them. As much as it would devastate me I would rather know so I could be there and help my loved one when the time came. It would kill me to think some-one they didn't know was the one to help when it should have been me.

I just think that its being a criminal offence is heaping even more trauma on loved ones so end of life options should be on the table rather than the 'head-in-the-sand-approach'.

I agree 100%.

Stavro Mueller

Fenian Army
But it fcuking could have! Hence why its irresponsible to portray drowning yourself in a river or a canal as an acceptable thing to do!

You have to accept that her options were limited and time was running out for her to be proactive. I think she did the best she could in the circumstances and with limited resources. She must've been absolutely desperate by this time. Imagine crying your eyes out because you weren't able to die? Any time someone commits suicide, somebody has to find the body. Is a drowned woman lying face down in a canal really that much worse than finding someone with their head blown off, lying in a pool of yuck or hanging from the rafters?

Yes it's unfortunate that your friend drowned and I can understand why you're bitter as feck over it. It's ironic that your friend's selfless act has led you to become compassionless. You can't tar all suicidal people with the same brush though. Some people can be helped. Others can't. What exactly could you tell a suicidal person with MS anyway?

Bruthal

cymbaline wrote: »

You have to accept that her options were limited and time was running out for her to be proactive. I think she did the best she could in the circumstances and with limited resources. She must've been absolutely desperate by this time. Imagine crying your eyes out because you weren't able to die? Any time someone commits suicide, somebody has to find the body. Is a drowned woman lying face down in a canal really that much worse than finding someone with their head blown off, lying in a pool of yuck or hanging from the rafters?

Yes it's unfortunate that your friend drowned and I can understand why you're bitter as feck over it. It's ironic that your friend's selfless act has led you to become compassionless. You can't tar all suicidal people with the same brush though. Some people can be helped. Others can't. What exactly could you tell a suicidal person with MS anyway?

You might of mixed up posters there. Unless im reading it wrong myself.

Stavro Mueller

So I did. Whoops. I should have (not of) quoted Fenian Army

Bruthal

cymbaline wrote: »

So I did. Whoops. I should have (not of) quoted Fenian Army

The grammar corrections:). Frowned upon in this particular forum these days i believe. Just as well with my postings.