Baby lives 45 minutes after legal abortion in UK

blatantrereg

There's a shocking exception to the laws about late term abortions in the UK apparently. If there is a strong risk of the child having a serious handicap, abortion is legal right up until birth.

The child in this article was aborted at 27 weeks. The normal cutoff was been reduced from 28 weeks to 24 weeks in 1990.

I'm strongly in favour of the legalisation of abortion. Certainly women have a right to choose. But there's a point where she's not choosing what happens in her own body, and is just having a baby killed. Late term abortions are simply not ok.

The baby was not handicapped at all, as it turned out.

[edit: this smiley is the link. It works]

A woman who agreed to an abortion after being told the foetus was severely handicapped had a normal, healthy baby who lived for 45 minutes after the termination.
Jacqueline James consented to the abortion at 27 weeks of pregnancy after doctors told her that routine ultrasound scans had revealed her baby had severe physical abnormalities.
Although born alive the baby died because of the stress brought about by drugs previously used in an attempt to induce termination, an inquest was told. Ms James, 26, said at the time: "I thought everything was going really well. I would never have had the abortion if I had known the baby was going to be all right."
The baby, named Natasha by her parents, was certified dead in the operating theatre at Wordsley hospital, Stourbridge, West Midlands 45 minutes after the Caesarean section in May 1994. A routine ultrasound scan earlier that month at the hospital had alerted doctors to a potential problem. Ms James was referred to the Birmingham Maternity hospital for a second scan by an expert who confirmed the original diagnosis.
Victor Round, the Dudley coroner, was told that Ms James had been given "very clear advice" by doctors that the foetus she was carrying was abnormal, and she and her partner decided on a late termination.
Under the 1990 Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act, which replaced the 1967 Abortion Act, the time limit on a termination was reduced from 28 weeks to 24. However, there is a provision within the act which allows termination up until birth if there is thought to be risk of a severe physical or mental handicap. When the inquest into Natasha's death was opened in June 1994, Ms James, who has daughter aged 9 and a five-year- old son, said she would never have agreed to an abortion if she had known her unborn child was normal.
Mr Round read from a report by Dr Ian Rushton, a senior lecturer in pathology at Birmingham University which said the foetus was normal and corresponded in weight to the time of pregnancy. He said death was due to stress brought about by drugs previously used in an attempt to induce termination.
A second report by Dr Imogen Morgan, a consultant at Birmingham Maternity Hospital, said that the initial attempts to induce the abortion had failed but had caused stress to the foetus. "The infant was born live and was cared for but not actively resuscitated and died [shortly after]," she said.
Richard Blunt, medical director of the Dudley Group of Hospitals NHS Trust, said that no attempt to resuscitate the baby was made, despite it appearing healthy, because Ms James was undergoing a termination. "If you do a termination late in pregnancy then [the foetus] comes out in one piece ... and that therefore it may be alive and kicking. This is the dreadful thing. [The foetus] did not have any major physical abnormalities, but it would require a post-mortem to establish any internal problems. Everyone was so upset it turned out to be healthy."
Mr Blunt said the hospital relied on the opinion of an expert that the baby was abnormal. "The tragic thing for this girl was that the ultrasound was misleading," he said.
The coroner at the resumed inquest concluded that none of the usual verdicts was appropriate in the circumstances and recorded a verdict of death due to legal termination.

Just noticed the date on that article is 1994. Old news or not, I think it is pretty relevant. It's a pretty strong testment against late term abortion. I recall seeing some pretty miliatnt attitudes in favour of it on this forum tbh.

Unique User Name

Breaking news.. Hitler is invading Poland!

blatantrereg

Unique User Name wrote: »

Breaking news.. Hitler is invading Poland!

Discussing Hitler's invasion of Poland would be an interesting topic for a thread.

dmc17

Unique User Name wrote: »

Breaking news.. Hitler is invading Poland!

Not again

slippy wicket

I would imagine that there has been a quantum leap in imaging technologies in the years since 94 to prevent such errors from happening.
In my opinion it is extremely selfish and illthought out to go ahead with a pregnancy which is going to result in a malformation .
The best thing for both parties is an immediate termination.

blatantrereg

slippy wicket wrote: »

I would imagine that there has been a quantum leap in imaging technologies in the years since 94 to prevent such errors from happening.
In my opinion it is extremely selfish and illthought out to go ahead with a pregnancy which is going to result in a malformation .
The best thing for both parties is an immediate termination.

You might well be right, sadly.
There are people who think that late term abortions should be legal across the board though. That is more what I was thinking of when I posted this.

44leto

Infanticide is as old as man, only relatively recently has the practice been stopped (well in the west anyway).

Its history is so widespread and cross cultural that you have to assume the practice was natural. Imagine a mother suppling one baby while herself struggling to exist and with the absence of any birth control another bundle arrives. The choices are stark, keep the baby, then the other baby and the mothers health is put at risk. Or kill the baby and you give a better chance to the surviving infant and off course the mother who will feed it.

In Sparta and all of ancient Greece they would routinely discard unwanted infants, in India midwifes would have a full bucket of water beside the mother and if the baby was sickly or deformed just dip it in. In France there was accounts of screaming infants floating in the latrines. Also the amount of historical figure who were discarded but survived, Moses, Romulus and remus and many more tells us how wide the practice was.

Perhaps abortion is about a similar choice, do I have or want to invest resources into this child. Its none of my business, its a womans choice, I am very much pro choice.

As for this case, it sounds like a stupid teenager.

mikom

Unique User Name wrote: »

Breaking news.. Hitler is invading Poland!

I think Hitler did some experiments like the one in the article.

KittyeeTrix

44leto wrote: »

As for this case, it sounds like a stupid teenager.

The article states the woman in question was 26 and was acting on evidence that the child was severly handicapped otherwise she'd never have had an abortion

Defiler Of The Coffin

Damn, that child could have been another Mozart...

blatantrereg

44leto wrote: »

Infanticide is as old as man, only relatively recently has the practice been stopped (well in the west anyway).

Its history is so widespread and cross cultural that you have to assume the practice was natural. Imagine a mother suppling one baby while herself struggling to exist and with the absence of any birth control another bundle arrives. The choices are stark, keep the baby, then the other baby and the mothers health is put at risk. Or kill the baby and you give a better chance to the surviving infant and off course the mother who will feed it.

In Sparta and all of ancient Greece they would routinely discard unwanted infants, in India midwifes would have a full bucket of water beside the mother and if the baby was sickly or deformed just dip it in. In France there was accounts of screaming infants floating in the latrines. Also the amount of historical figure who were discarded but survived, Moses, Romulus and remus and many more tells us how wide the practice was.

Perhaps abortion is about a similar choice, do I have or want to invest resources into this child. Its none of my business, its a womans choice, I am very much pro choice.

As for this case, it sounds like a stupid teenager.

I'm pro-choice too. I even tend to believe the research that suggests a direct correlation between legalised abortion and reduced crime rates.

In Sparta they went beyond discarding unwanted children. I believe they left all babies exposed outside for a night, in order to make sure they were tough enough to qualify as Spartans. I understand that in some south asian countries the practice of infanticide persists today, and it comes down to the limited resources as you say.

But these are all irrelevant to society in contemporary Western Europe tbh. I particularly disagree with the notion that a woman can do what she pleases with her child. That suggests the child is a part of her, a possession, has no rights as an entity in itself. That is not the case.

44leto

KittyeeTrix wrote: »

The article states the woman in question was 26 and was acting on evidence that the child was severly handicapped otherwise she'd never have had an abortion

Ohh I just read the article now, I thought it was the usual, when the so called" pro lifers" were putting a case forward for illegalizing abortion, but no, what a cock up.

slippy wicket

blatantrereg wrote: »

You might well be right, sadly.
There are people who think that late term abortions should be legal across the board though. That is more what I was thinking of when I posted this.

As to that, it should not be legal across the board, just in the case of disability.
Its tough, but until there are in utero ways of repairing such defectives, its the only ethical way to proceed in societal interest.

44leto

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Damn, that child could have been another Mozart...

Or Hitler.

Dudess

I hate the idea of late-term abortion, but it's unlikely to be carried out unless the circumstances are dire.

Defiler Of The Coffin

44leto wrote: »

Or Hitler.

Or Godwin!

44leto

blatantrereg wrote: »

I'm pro-choice too. I even tend to believe the research that suggests a direct correlation between legalised abortion and reduced crime rates.

In Sparta they went beyond discarding unwanted children. I believe they left all babies exposed outside for a night, in order to make sure they were tough enough to qualify as Spartans. I understand that in some south asian countries the practice of infanticide persists today, and it comes down to the limited resources as you say.

But these are all irrelevant to society in contemporary Western Europe tbh. I particularly disagree with the notion that a woman can do what she pleases with her child. That suggests the child is a part of her, a possession, has no rights as an entity in itself. That is not the case.

It is not really, it lacks a consciousness till about 24 to 28 weeks so its a potential child, and with that word a potential child, that can go back as well. Everytime you have sex using birth control you are stopping the life of another potential child.

This thread will develop into the usual row (without me) and I bet more men are anti abortion and more women are pro choice. Men don't carry the package. I fkuced around during parts of my life while here and abroad, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that I am a father, all I know is I am not in that (perhaps) child or its mothers life.

blatantrereg

44leto wrote: »

It is not really, it lacks a consciousness till about 24 to 28 weeks so its a potential child, and with that word a potential child, that can go back as well. Everytime you have sex using birth control you are stopping the life of another potential child.

This thread will develop into the usual row (without me) and I bet more men are anti abortion and more women are pro choice. Men don't carry the package. I fkuced around during parts of my life while here and abroad, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that I am a father, all I know is I am not in that (perhaps) child or its mothers life.

You aren't reading my posts. I stated repeatedly that I am strongly pro choice. I only object to late term abortions: Abortions which are carried out after the earliest time a baby could be born and survive. I think that is about 24 weeks.

You also are switching contexts to suit yourself. The bold part of my post you responded to was in reply to you defending the notion of infanticide. That's a million miles away from non-late-term abortions - which is the context you switched to in response.

Not sure if you're trolling or drunk or what.

fedor.2.

44leto wrote: »

Infanticide is as old as man, only relatively recently has the practice been stopped (well in the west anyway).

Its history is so widespread and cross cultural that you have to assume the practice was natural. Imagine a mother suppling one baby while herself struggling to exist and with the absence of any birth control another bundle arrives. The choices are stark, keep the baby, then the other baby and the mothers health is put at risk. Or kill the baby and you give a better chance to the surviving infant and off course the mother who will feed it.

In Sparta and all of ancient Greece they would routinely discard unwanted infants, in India midwifes would have a full bucket of water beside the mother and if the baby was sickly or deformed just dip it in. In France there was accounts of screaming infants floating in the latrines. Also the amount of historical figure who were discarded but survived, Moses, Romulus and remus and many more tells us how wide the practice was.

Perhaps abortion is about a similar choice, do I have or want to invest resources into this child. Its none of my business, its a womans choice, I am very much pro choice.

As for this case, it sounds like a stupid teenager.

I presume you mean mythical figures there, ya?

44leto

blatantrereg wrote: »

You aren't reading my posts. I stated repeatedly that I am strongly pro choice. I only object to late term abortions: Abortions which are carried out after the earliest time a baby could be born and survive. I think that is about 24 weeks.

You also are switching contexts to suit yourself. The bold part of my post you responded to was in reply to you defending the notion of infanticide. That's a million miles away from non-late-term abortions - which is the context you switched to in response.

Not sure if you're trolling or drunk or what.

I assumed in the context of this thread you were referring to the fetos being an individual child within the mother. Which it is potentially. And with your aggressive response I now presume you are drunk, but not a troll.

Finneen

blatantrereg wrote: »

Just noticed the date on that article is 1994.

Just heard a great new band called Oasis, should be huge!

RichieC

WE LANDED ON THE MOON!!!

44leto

fedor.2. wrote: »

I presume you mean mythical figures there, ya?

I did I could add more Ishmeal, Oedipus, Sargon, Cyrus the great and Hou Chi (founder of the chou dynasty), it just gives an example of how abandoned infants were in popular culture. Because it was common practice.

mikom

44leto wrote: »

I assumed in the context of this thread you were referring to the fetos.

Are we talking about cheese or a baby?

charlemont

Unique User Name wrote: »

Breaking news.. Hitler is invading Poland!

Vienna, Austro-Hungarian....Late 1888...Mrs Hitler misses appointment for abortion..

Namlub

1994? My one year-old self is appalled by this story.

KamiKazeKitten

Ah, another abortion thread, oh the joys.

steddyeddy

Im pro abortion under certain circumstances but at a certain point in the development of the foetus the woman is making a choice for two and not just herself.

DannyKing

slippy wicket wrote: »

I would imagine that there has been a quantum leap in imaging technologies in the years since 94 to prevent such errors from happening.
In my opinion it is extremely selfish and illthought out to go ahead with a pregnancy which is going to result in a malformation .
The best thing for both parties is an immediate termination.

: P

philologos

There is no difference between a child while it is unborn, and while it is born in terms of it being a human life, as a result the right to life should be defended. Life is from conception to death, articles like these IMO demonstrate that point more and more clearly.

sara025

44leto wrote: »

Infanticide is as old as man, only relatively recently has the practice been stopped (well in the west anyway).

Its history is so widespread and cross cultural that you have to assume the practice was natural. Imagine a mother suppling one baby while herself struggling to exist and with the absence of any birth control another bundle arrives. The choices are stark, keep the baby, then the other baby and the mothers health is put at risk. Or kill the baby and you give a better chance to the surviving infant and off course the mother who will feed it.

In Sparta and all of ancient Greece they would routinely discard unwanted infants, in India midwifes would have a full bucket of water beside the mother and if the baby was sickly or deformed just dip it in. In France there was accounts of screaming infants floating in the latrines. Also the amount of historical figure who were discarded but survived, Moses, Romulus and remus and many more tells us how wide the practice was.

Perhaps abortion is about a similar choice, do I have or want to invest resources into this child. Its none of my business, its a womans choice, I am very much pro choice.

As for this case, it sounds like a stupid teenager.

Such a pity your mom wasn't of the same opinion as you

smash

blatantrereg wrote: »

Just noticed the date on that article is 1994. Old news or not, I think it is pretty relevant.

18 year old news is pretty relevant?

philologos

philologos wrote: »

There is no difference between a child while it is unborn, and while it is born in terms of it being a human life, as a result the right to life should be defended. Life is from conception to death, articles like these IMO demonstrate that point more and more clearly.

"life" started well before conception

Seachmall

philologos wrote: »

There is no difference between a child while it is unborn, and while it is born in terms of it being a human life, as a result the right to life should be defended. Life is from conception to death, articles like these IMO demonstrate that point more and more clearly.

There are many differences between a child while it is unborn and while it is born in terms of it being a human life.

For example, an unborn "child" at conception is not a human and thus not a human life.

prinz

slippy wicket wrote: »

I would imagine that there has been a quantum leap in imaging technologies in the years since 94 to prevent such errors from happening.

You'd think so, but no it still happens regularly enough.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7646540/Baby-boy-survives-for-nearly-two-days-after-abortion.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-512129/66-babies-year-left-die-NHS-abortions-wrong.html

slippy wicket wrote: »

In my opinion it is extremely selfish and illthought out to go ahead with a pregnancy which is going to result in a malformation .
The best thing for both parties is an immediate termination.

How charming.

As a side note, many US states have restrictions on late-term abortions. One prominent US politician with an extremely shady past when it comes to restricting late-term abortions, and legislating for medical care to be provided for those who survive them, is Barrack Obama. Then we gave him a Nobel Peace Prize. Bravo.

Nodin

blatantrereg wrote: »

......


Just noticed the date on that article is 1994. Old news or not, I think it is pretty relevant. It's a pretty strong testment against late term abortion. I recall seeing some pretty miliatnt attitudes in favour of it on this forum tbh.

I'd be rather more concerned about the kind of 'late term abortion' going on in Syria at the moment, tbh.

LordSutch

blatantrereg wrote: »

There's a shocking exception to the laws about late term abortions in the UK apparently. If there is a strong risk of the child having a serious handicap, abortion is legal right up until birth.

Don't know if abortion laws apply across the 'UK' ? surely Northern Ireland & Scotland do their own thing?
or is this shocking exception really across the UK?

blatantrereg

Nodin wrote: »

I'd be rather more concerned about the kind of 'late term abortion' going on in Syria at the moment, tbh.

You might as well say you're more concerned about global warming. It's a different subject.

44leto

sara025 wrote: »

Such a pity your mom wasn't of the same opinion as you

Awww is that how you feel and if my ma did abort me or commit infanticide, I never would have known, so it would have been no affront on me.

meganj

LordSutch wrote: »

Don't know if abortion laws apply across the 'UK' ? surely Northern Ireland & Scotland do their own thing?
or is this shocking exception really across the UK?

Abortion up to 24 weeks is available in the UK (mainland, Scotland, England and wales) a 'late-term' abortion is only available if there is a threat to the life of the mother, there is a risk of permanent injury to the mental/physical health of the woman or there is a serious foetal abnormality.

In Northern Ireland abortion is only available when there is a threat to the Mother and is severely restricted.

93% of all UK abortions happen before 13 weeks.

Source: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortion/Pages/When-should-it-be-done.aspx

sara025

44leto wrote: »

Awww is that how you feel and if my ma did abort me or commit infanticide, I never would have known, so it would have been no affront on me.

aw well she must be so proud of you turning out like this so, I bet her womb aches to create more murderous minded offspring just like you...I'd love to know what it actually was in your childhood that made you like this, if it wasn't your moms overwhelming bond with you...I bet you were one of those "I wish I had never been born!" tantrum kids :pac:

wendell borton

I see a woman in the night
With a baby in her hand
Under an old street light
Near a garbage can
Now she puts the kid away, and she's gone to get a hit
She hates her life, and what she's done to it
There's one more kid that will never go to school
Never get to fall in love, never get to be cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQccK0F1_iY

44leto

sara025 wrote: »

aw well she must be so proud of you turning out like this so, I bet her womb aches to create more murderous minded offspring just like you...I'd love to know what it actually was in your childhood that made you like this, if it wasn't your moms overwhelming bond with you...I bet you were one of those "I wish I had never been born!" tantrum kids :pac:

No I just have an over whelming sense of empathy to a mother who would have to make such a choice.

But I suppose you are to self centered to project your own prejudices past your selfishly centered self and judge others according to your morals.

We could go on like this all day and I as a guy will remain pro choice. But you,, you can opt to never have an abortion, that is your sole choice, that does not mean it should be denied to all, because of your self centered moral and stifled empathy towards mothers who feel a need to make that choice.

Seachmall

sara025 wrote: »

aw well she must be so proud of you turning out like this so, I bet her womb aches to create more murderous minded offspring just like you...I'd love to know what it actually was in your childhood that made you like this, if it wasn't your moms overwhelming bond with you...I bet you were one of those "I wish I had never been born!" tantrum kids :pac:

This is a pretty heavy topic for a 12 year old, give it a few years and you might be able to comprehend the discussion a little better.

prinz

44leto wrote: »

But you,, you can opt to never have an abortion, that is your sole choice, that does not mean it should be denied to all, because of your self centered moral and stifled empathy towards mothers who feel a need to make that choice.

That line is a major cop-out. That's like saying well being a racist cúnt is a personal choice. You can opt not to spout racist abuse at people, but that does not mean the right to spread your racist tripe in public should be denied to all, because of your self centered moral and stifled empathy towards mothers racists who feel a need to make that choice

Seachmall

prinz wrote: »

That line is a major cop-out. That's like saying well being a racist cúnt is a personal choice. You can opt not to spout racist abuse at people, but that does not mean the right to spread your racist tripe in public should be denied to all, because of your self centered moral and stifled empathy towards mothers racists who feel a need to make that choice

People are entitled to hold racist views, it's when they begin spouting their BS in a way that makes life uncomfortable for others that it crosses the line.

The difference between abortion and being racist is the factor of a person effected by your actions.


And before anyone says it: a clump of cells or tissue is not a person.

sara025

44leto wrote: »

No I just have an over whelming sense of empathy to a mother who would have to make such a choice.

But I suppose you are to self centered to project your own prejudices past your selfishly centered self and judge others according to your morals.

We could go on like this all day and I as a guy will remain pro choice. But you,, you can opt to never have an abortion, that is your sole choice, that does not mean it should be denied to all, because of your self centered moral and stifled empathy towards mothers who feel a need to make that choice.

So you have empathy for other murderous minded people...what a man you are.
Anyway, what you said about 'not knowing any different if your mother did the right thing deed while pregnant with you'...that hardly makes it ok, jesus you could say that about everyone who gets murdered, they hardly know anything about it after they're dead do they? You need a better response than that if you want to justify calling yourself Pro-choice.

I think you are just mad at not being able to partake in murder without being sent to prison...I bet you think every day "damn, why couldn't I be born a woman!"

44leto

prinz wrote: »

That line is a major cop-out. That's like saying well being a racist cúnt is a personal choice. You can opt not to spout racist abuse at people, but that does not mean the right to spread your racist tripe in public should be denied to all, because of your self centered moral and stifled empathy towards mothers racists who feel a need to make that choice

It is no-where near the same, a racist like a criminal hurts society, a mother who has an abortion does not.

I could also say if you don't like gay marriage don't participate in one. Its much the same logical argument.

44leto

sara025 wrote: »

So you have empathy for other murderous minded people...what a man you are.
Anyway, what you said about 'not knowing any different if your mother did the right thing deed while pregnant with you'...that hardly makes it ok, jesus you could say that about everyone who gets murdered, they hardly know anything about it after they're dead do they? You need a better response than that if you want to justify calling yourself Pro-choice.

I think you are just mad at not being able to partake in murder without being sent to prison...I bet you think every day "damn, why couldn't I be born a woman!"

So now the abortion is murder argument, you are destroying a human being, but you are not, you are terminating a potential human being. When you use birth control you are also terminating a potential human being,,Murderer..

Micky Dolenz

sara025 wrote: »

So you have empathy for other murderous minded people...what a man you are.
Anyway, what you said about 'not knowing any different if your mother did the right thing deed while pregnant with you'...that hardly makes it ok, jesus you could say that about everyone who gets murdered, they hardly know anything about it after they're dead do they? You need a better response than that if you want to justify calling yourself Pro-choice.

I think you are just mad at not being able to partake in murder without being sent to prison...I bet you think every day "damn, why couldn't I be born a woman!"

MOD

Do the "you should have been aborted" thing again, and I'll ban you.

sara025

Seachmall wrote: »

And before anyone says it: a clump of cells or tissue is not a person.

I'm talking about choosing to abort after the clump of cells & tissue becomes a person...I'm not a pro-choice basher due to believing in life being life before conscious thought etc...I have a background in cell biology I understand how it works