Societal scapegoats?

Mr Benevolent

Nearly every society has a social minority used to some extent as a scapegoat. Is it just me who finds this strange? It's usually the *insert indigenous population* or the Gypsies, although a few countries have variations on the theme, for instance Native Americans or Aboriginies. Russians have Gypisies, we have Travellers, the Australians have Aboriginies and the Americans have the Native Americans. There are many more examples. In almost all cases there has been enough hate to cause genocide for no appreciable reason. We're conditioned to blame them for their own problems and for some of ours too. It's a 'dysfunction family' trait, a positive feedback loop.

Interesting when you think about it. What caused these biases in the first place? Why do we continue to propagate them? Can you really justify them? Can you really override cultural programming? I'm as biased as the rest of you, but I don't know HOW I got like this. No Traveller or Aboriginie has done me any harm.

Yeah, some guy will come along blaming the travellers for the majority of his ills. QED, in that case. Can we discuss this reasonably please?

squod

Confab wrote: »

Can we discuss this reasonably please?

No. IBTL

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

who else is there to blame if we can't blame travellers?

Ricardo G

Confab wrote: »

Nearly every society has a social minority used to some extent as a scapegoat. Is it just me who finds this strange? It's usually the *insert indigenous population* or the Gypsies, although a few countries have variations on the theme, for instance Native Americans or Aboriginies. Russians have Gypisies, we have Travellers, the Australians have Aboriginies and the Americans have the Native Americans. There are many more examples. In almost all cases there has been enough hate to cause genocide for no appreciable reason. We're conditioned to blame them for their own problems and for some of ours too. It's a 'dysfunction family' trait, a positive feedback loop.

Interesting when you think about it. What caused these biases in the first place? Why do we continue to propagate them? Can you really justify them? Can you really override cultural programming? I'm as biased as the rest of you, but I don't know HOW I got like this. No Traveller or Aboriginie has done me any harm.

Yeah, some guy will come along blaming the travellers for the majority of his ills. QED, in that case. Can we discuss this reasonably please?

EHHHH NO

Dostoevsky

I blame Irish speakers. It's completely unacceptable that people can master two languages when I can only master one. Bastards. I hate them!

...

squod

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

who else is there to blame if we can't blame travellers?

Darth Vader

Coriolanus

I think we should be more like Germany. They really found the final solution for exactly this problem a few years ago.

Ricardo G

I was waiting 20 mins this morning at the local shop for a breakfast roll, all because a van load of travellers got there before me.....So yes i do blame travellers

the_syco

Confab wrote: »

What caused these biases in the first place?

Travellers: they illegally camp in public amenities and leave a pile of rubbish when they leave, and yes I've seen them do this.

Roma: beg. Have never seen a Roma work in an actual job.

themadchef

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

who else is there to blame if we can't blame travellers?

The devil, sure he's behind everything, even the couch.

steddyeddy

Confab wrote: »

Nearly every society has a social minority used to some extent as a scapegoat. Is it just me who finds this strange? It's usually the *insert indigenous population* or the Gypsies, although a few countries have variations on the theme, for instance Native Americans or Aboriginies. Russians have Gypisies, we have Travellers, the Australians have Aboriginies and the Americans have the Native Americans. There are many more examples. In almost all cases there has been enough hate to cause genocide for no appreciable reason. We're conditioned to blame them for their own problems and for some of ours too. It's a 'dysfunction family' trait, a positive feedback loop.

Interesting when you think about it. What caused these biases in the first place? Why do we continue to propagate them? Can you really justify them? Can you really override cultural programming? I'm as biased as the rest of you, but I don't know HOW I got like this. No Traveller or Aboriginie has done me any harm.

Yeah, some guy will come along blaming the travellers for the majority of his ills. QED, in that case. Can we discuss this reasonably please?

I think people blame groups of people because often they can. Very few people stand up for the minorities.

Nodin

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

who else is there to blame if we can't blame travellers?

"Nigerians"(anyone black is assumed to be Nigerian), Asylum seekers and single mothers.

Cianos

We assess problems based on living memory - it takes considerably more effort to recognise and consider the root cause of antisocial behaviour than to point the finger.

44leto

Nevore wrote: »

I think we should be more like Germany. They really found the final solution for exactly this problem a few years ago.

That was witty, funny and I know it was a joke, but I couldn't thank the post.

Your a bad man.:D

John Doe1

Have you come in contact with many aborigines?:p

Wattle

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

who else is there to blame if we can't blame travellers?

Skangers?

bc dub

I work in retail 2 years. In that time, on 4 occasions I've been flash-mob-style robbed by "groups" of people. 3 times travellers, once Romanians, in a random housing estate in Dublin. Settled people have never once done this. In fairness, individually, settled people would rob more often then travellers but as far as scammers go, they know every trick you've never even heard in the book.

facemelter

squod wrote: »

Darth Vader

sure his house was a fceking space ship ... an intergalatic traveller !!!

Sindri

bc dub wrote: »

I work in retail 2 years. In that time, on 4 occasions I've been flash-mob-style robbed by "groups" of people. 3 times travellers, once Romanians, in a random housing estate in Dublin. Settled people have never once done this. In fairness, individually, settled people would rob more often then travellers but as far as scammers go, they know every trick you've never even heard in the book.

And which book would this be?

Is it available on Amazon?

krudler

I blame white people

jimthemental

John Doe1 wrote: »

Have you come in contact with many aborigines?:p

I've been in Australia since August and I've been threatened numerous times by drunk aborigines on the way to the tram in the morning on the way to work. With the aborigines their traditional societal concepts are not compatible with western culture and so there continues to be problems here. The recent events on Australia day highlighted this.

With the travelling community there are not as many differences how ever I do believe that crime as a way of life is more acceptable to them and so it is still prevalent.

giles lynchwood

krudler wrote: »

I blame white people

Racist.:)

Yakult

Confab wrote: »

No Traveller or Aboriginie has done me any harm.

This is where opinion changes, I've had a few bad encounters with travelers over my life and the people in my life have too. I try not to tar all, but from personal experience, they have not been pleasant. They have a reputation for a reason but that's not to say I have not encountered some honest, genuine people that gives me a stitch of hope for that community. Too bad theirs more a**holes than saints.

Eric Cartman

its not PC anymore to blame the travellers or the nigerians for everything, so now they blame fianna fail for everything thats their own fault and a mixture of fianna fail and the banks for them not working harder to get more money

SeanW

Nevore wrote: »

I think we should be more like Germany. They really found the final solution for exactly this problem a few years ago.

Godwin's Law FTW!
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e162/MattGo74/GodwinsLaw.jpg

Coriolanus

SeanW wrote: »

Nevore wrote: »

I think we should be more like Germany. They really found the final solution for exactly this problem a few years ago.

Godwin's Law FTW!
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e162/MattGo74/GodwinsLaw.jpg

I like to get it out of the way nice and early

Eggy Baby!

Travellers and Bankers (yeah I know they did a lot but the government usually shifts blame unto them) and Foreigners.

Ronin247

We cannot blame them for the unemployment mess.....They never took any job!!

Liam Byrne

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

who else is there to blame if we can't blame travellers?

"we all" seems to be flavour of the month.....

Sindri

Iv'e been sayin' it for years lads ffs, lets just blame the Jews and get it over with.

Shure we'll all feel better then.

44leto

Any room left on this thread for single parents and the PS.

Local-womanizer

Woah! I never ever blamed a traveller for my own problems in my life.

I do blame them that every establishment I have worked in the majority of travellers I have dealt with have attempted to rob the place.

If it wasn't the adults it was the kids. The worst is the kids doing it in plain view of everyone in the shop, including their parents, and the behaviour is let go on, yet when I challenge them the parents try to claim I am discriminating!! :mad:

If any person of any ethnic, social or religious background was attempting to steal from my work place I would challenge them.

I hate the shite that some people need to tip toe around issues involving travellers. The Criminal Assets Bureau should go after the "unemployed" members of the travelling community who are driving around in 2012 reg vans and cars.

This is in no way a slate against every single traveller. When I have not been in work I have met a number that are civil.

Bullchomper

What are we blaming people for exactly? Genuine question.

Local-womanizer

Bullchomper wrote: »

What are we blaming people for exactly? Genuine question.

Nothing really,I think...

I only blame those directly involved in something....

Bullchomper

Guess that's that sorted then!

Son Of A Vidic

krudler wrote: »

I blame white people

Because they can't jump?

Teyla Emmagan

The travellers deserve at least half the bad press they get IMO. Based on my real world empirical experience of the rotten behaviour of some members of their community.

token101

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

who else is there to blame if we can't blame travellers?

The Germans, the EU, the IMF, Angela Merkel, Nicolas Sarkozy, Michael Lowry.

Liam Byrne

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

The travellers deserve at least half the bad press they get IMO. Based on my real world empirical experience of the rotten behaviour of some members of their community.

And yet society doesn't appear to object anywhere near as much to the weekly horror show caused by "respectable" settled people getting hammered drunk ?

There's certainly a double-standard.

paddyandy

You can measure what people care about by following the paths that their money takes .

Frank Black

I blame it on the boogie.

token101

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And yet society doesn't appear to object anywhere near as much to the weekly horror show caused by "respectable" settled people getting hammered drunk ?

There's certainly a double-standard.

People do object, but I don't know of many settled people who tear apart bars/hotels, destroy whole green areas with littering/scrap, start up bare knuckled boxing matches in country lanes, break into property and steal anything that's not nailed down, deal drugs, terrorise neighboorhoods whilst feuding amongst families and murder each other in the streets. It might be a generalisation, but not all politicians are crooks are either, yet you don't hear as many complaints.

Dyr

Confab wrote: »

Nearly every society has a social minority used to some extent as a scapegoat. Is it just me who finds this strange? It's usually the *insert indigenous population* or the Gypsies, although a few countries have variations on the theme, for instance Native Americans or Aboriginies. Russians have Gypisies, we have Travellers, the Australians have Aboriginies and the Americans have the Native Americans. There are many more examples. In almost all cases there has been enough hate to cause genocide for no appreciable reason. We're conditioned to blame them for their own problems and for some of ours too. It's a 'dysfunction family' trait, a positive feedback loop.

Interesting when you think about it. What caused these biases in the first place? Why do we continue to propagate them? Can you really justify them? Can you really override cultural programming? I'm as biased as the rest of you, but I don't know HOW I got like this. No Traveller or Aboriginie has done me any harm.

Yeah, some guy will come along blaming the travellers for the majority of his ills. QED, in that case. Can we discuss this reasonably please?

I havent seen anyone blaming travellers for the banking crisis or our debt problems, they blame them for general thievery because the travelling community punch well above their weight on that front.

Teyla Emmagan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And yet society doesn't appear to object anywhere near as much to the weekly horror show caused by "respectable" settled people getting hammered drunk ?

There's certainly a double-standard.

I for one would also object to that actually, I don't like to see anyone hammered drunk.

And I wasn't referring to travellers drinking, I have seen them tresspassing, extorting, vandalising, destroying property etc etc. And I know settled people do that too, but in my experience a higher proportion of travellers are likely to indulge in anti social and illegal behaviour than settled people.

smash

Hi, I'm here for the traveller bashing....

conorhal

At the end of the day, any group that places itself outside the common values of a society, or in direct opposition to them, risks becoming a target of that society to some degree, that may mean falling foul of the law or social exclusion, or in extreme cases it can mean risking a lot more, if for example that society is run by a National Socialist Party...

Humans are by necessity a co-operative species because we live in complex and heavily interdependent societies. To do so requires common values, common taboos, common laws and common aims, and despite the aggressive individualistic tendencies of consumerist capitalism or the lefty deconstructionists attempt to dismantle reality into pure ideology, this still holds true today as it did a thousand years ago. We call it citizenship.

We still agree on certain common socially constructed truths like, 'it is important to be educated rather then ignorant', 'you should make a positive contribution to the common good by contributing your fair share’, 'it's wrong to act with violence towards another person in an unprovoked manner.'
Now if you're a member of a group that feels such rules only apply to your group and not wider society, or in fact feel that those common values don't apply to you at all, you will inevitably be sanctioned by that society, because exempting yourself from the common rules we all are supposed to live by makes you a threat to that society. Which, to be blunt, is fair. Now I’m sure we’ll have some that will say ‘rubbish, nobody has the right to tell me how to live my life’, but even the most aggressive individualist is unlikely to argue with any of the common values that I listed above.. That does not automatically mean we have to skip to genocide as a sanction, a civilized society applies a proportional sanction that applies to all of it’s citizens. The problem is that often we don’t.

Teyla Emmagan

smash wrote: »

Hi, I'm here for the traveller bashing....

Welcome. You've come to the right place :pac:

Bad Panda

I don't think it can be discussed rationally on the basis that you're spouting some PC bullsh!t in claiming travellers are the scapegoats of society.

They're disliked for a number of (valid) reasons. I think we all know them without regurgitating the same stuff from about a million other threads.

smash

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Welcome. You've come to the right place :pac:

Well in the last 6 months alone I've been through an attempted robbery on one occasion and then I sold my car on another occasion where it ended up in a string of robberies.

I've can safely say I've never had a good experience with travellers.

Teyla Emmagan

Oh yeah, the travellers stole my Mam's car too, had almost forgotten that.

This was after they had extorted 300 each from all of our neighbours to get off the field beside us. My Mam's (old) car was parked across the neck of the field to stop them getting back in and they knicked that too. Was found burnt out beside a campsite off the Naas Road.

Before the by laws were changed, there was a group (like 30 caravans) going around North Kildare one summer about 10 years ago. They would break into a field (generally beside houses e.g. at Castletown House in Celbridge) and not move on until they had been paid off. They made about 8k that I know of inside of 3 weeks or so.

They're enterprising anyway, I'll give them that much.

Dyr

smash wrote: »

Hi, I'm here for the traveller bashing....

You be interested in a bit of roma bashing too?