Oil burner service-a few questions

dinneenp

Hi,
Living Social have an oil boiler service offer <Snip>

Give yourself something to celebrate with today's deal from Oil Boiler Services Galway, and a full service for standard efficiency boilers and condensing boilers is yours for just €29 (a €60 value).
Company is <Snip>

I've never had my boiler serviced and think I'll get this deal. Just a few questions-
OFTEC technician. Is this enought/qualify him for oil burner service?
what should I look for
what should be included in the service
anything else to note
how long should the service take
anything else to note/ask

Cheers,
Pa.

kscobie

There is no way a boiler service could be done to the correct standard, spending the approximate 1 hour it usually takes,change the nozzle, oil line if necessary, to Oftec guidelines, for that price.
A quick hoover and a rub of an oily rag I think.
Maybe its the guys way of druming up some exposure for his business, but if he maintains that price, I cant see it staying going too long.

dinneenp

kscobie wrote: »

There is no way a boiler service could be done to the correct standard, spending the approximate 1 hour it usually takes,change the nozzle, oil line if necessary, to Oftec guidelines, for that price.
A quick hoover and a rub of an oily rag I think.
Maybe its the guys way of druming up some exposure for his business, but if he maintains that price, I cant see it staying going too long.

Thnaks for the reply. €60 is the normal cost, €29 is the one-off offer price. Maybe it's to try to get repeat business or else he's very quiet and it's better than no business.

kscobie

Maybe so, €60 is still a good price

DGOBS

You know, this type of stuff makes my blood boil.....

With overheads etc, and spending 1-1.5 hrs properly cleaning the boiler, check the flue is clean, checking seals, cleaning baffles and putting is back together (let alone turbulators and condensate trap on HE boilers) checking the flue seals, joints, and renewing fire cement or silicone where required. Dismantling and cleaning the burner, replacing the nozzle, cleaning the electrodes, brushing through the fan, greasing the bearings, replacing seals on hydraulic jacks (G riellos) reassemble, check/set oil pressures, smoke test, seal test, flue gas analysis, leak check all aspects on burner and oil line, inspect the oil storage for possible issues (and there is usually lots) dip the tank to check for water contamination, remove and clean all oil line filters (change where required)

THIS CANNOT BE DONE FOR THIS PRICE. PERIOD

It's like getting your car serviced, whats the point getting it done for €29 if it actually doesnt get filters changed, oil changed and safety checked for you, you may as well not have bothered, if I have to offer this price for my services something is wrong, I have either no customers or have lost them as my servicing is not worth them calling me out in the first place.

I got a lad in my area (who didn't know me) and was offering a similar deal, and i watched over him from afar as if I hadn't a clue, he took the burner off, stuck a hoover in the through the mounting flange, changed the nozzle and got ready to leave, I refused to pay him and reported him to Oftec as a fruad.

The same is happening to gas servicing, small and large companies alike are taking the mick, in and out in 15 minutes, gas safety me a**e, no soundness (leak) testing, no testing gas pressures, gas rating, flue gas analysis, safety device testing, system checks, nothing, quick hoover and a cert, all fun and games until there is a death due to it!

Simple advice, and always has been
a) you get what you pay for
b0 if it looks to good to be true, it usually is

The Helpful Engineer

A similar topic to this was covered a while ago on boards click here, and I did up a blog post to help see here.

DGOBS

Just read your site, very good, one fly though, the box of nozzles you show are stainless and a heap of dung. Stick to danfoss or similar, better quality and tolerances

The Helpful Engineer

Thanks, I will keep that in mind the next time I get the boiler serviced.

Cassidy28

DGOBS wrote: »

You know, this type of stuff makes my blood boil.....

Even at €60 this guy is either not doing the job correctly, or is somehow 'tax exempt':rolleyes:

With overheads etc, and spending 1-1.5 hrs properly cleaning the boiler, check the flue is clean, checking seals, cleaning baffles and putting is back together (let alone turbulators and condensate trap on HE boilers) checking the flue seals, joints, and renewing fire cement or silicone where required. Dismantling and cleaning the burner, replacing the nozzle, cleaning the electrodes, brushing through the fan, greasing the bearings, replacing seals on hydraulic jacks (G riellos) reassemble, check/set oil pressures, smoke test, seal test, flue gas analysis, leak check all aspects on burner and oil line, inspect the oil storage for possible issues (and there is usually lots) dip the tank to check for water contamination, remove and clean all oil line filters (change where required)

THIS CANNOT BE DONE FOR THIS PRICE. PERIOD

It's like getting your car serviced, whats the point getting it done for €29 if it actually doesnt get filters changed, oil changed and safety checked for you, you may as well not have bothered, if I have to offer this price for my services something is wrong, I have either no customers or have lost them as my servicing is not worth them calling me out in the first place.

I got a lad in my area (who didn't know me) and was offering a similar deal, and i watched over him from afar as if I hadn't a clue, he took the burner off, stuck a hoover in the through the mounting flange, changed the nozzle and got ready to leave, I refused to pay him and reported him to Oftec as a fruad.

The same is happening to gas servicing, small and large companies alike are taking the mick, in and out in 15 minutes, gas safety me a**e, no soundness (leak) testing, no testing gas pressures, gas rating, flue gas analysis, safety device testing, system checks, nothing, quick hoover and a cert, all fun and games until there is a death due to it!

Simple advice, and always has been
a) you get what you pay for
b0 if it looks to good to be true, it usually is

It's only a matter of time before there is a another serious incident,I am surprised that there are not much more with this level of service,people are being conned left right and centre,its absolute madness.

redbedhead

I saw the ad myself, then had a look here to see the consensus. It seemed a bit of a joke initially, but then the small print:
" standard service includes new nozzle, other parts if needed are subject to extra cost•"

Wow, how many other parts are needed do you think?

Billy Bunting

redbedhead wrote: »

Wow, how many other parts are needed do you think?

I'm sure at €29 he'll find plenty that need changing. :rolleyes:

shane0007

This is what an oil boiler service MUST include:

• Inspect & clean fuel filter
• Inspect & test operation of fuel shut off valve
• Inspect & test operation of remote acting fire valve where fitted
• Inspect air inlets to boiler room for blockages and correct sizing
• Inspect draught stabilizer where applicable
• Inspect & clean flame chamber
• Inspect burner refractory
• Inspect & clean baffles
• Inspect & clean burner diffuser & burner blast tube
• Inspect ignition transformer, HT cable & porcelain for deterioration
• Inspect & clean photocell
• Inspect, clean & adjust burner electrodes
• Calculate correct output of boiler & fit new burner nozzle to suit installation
• Adjust burner pump pressure & air ratio
• Inspect & test operation of boiler thermostat & boiler high limit thermostat
• Inspect & test operation of flame failure device
• Carry Out Full Combustion & Efficiency Analysis with Flue Gas Analysizer:
a. Boiler Combustion Analysis O² (Oxygen)
b. Boiler Combustion Analysis CO (Carbon Monoxide)
c. Boiler Combustion Analysis CO² (Carbon Dioxide)
d. Boiler Combustion Flue Temperature
e. Printed Report with Combustion Efficiency
f. Full Explanation of Results

For condensing boilers, also:

• All of the above, plus
• Inspect & clean condensate trap
• Inspect & clean condensate pipework
• Inspect & clean all secondary turbulators

Now tell me you can do all that for €29 or even €60. It takes a minimum of 75 - 90 minutes to carry out and that does not include travel time or any additional work that may be required.

Being OFTEC registered does not automatically infer that all of the above is being done. I know some OFTEC registered chancers too that rattle a spanner on the side of the boiler to sound busy!

DGOBS

+1 Shane, but people are blinded by this low cost 'service' it should be called a boiler vacuum out

Micky Dolenz

Meet a guy a few days ago who lost his job at a hardware store. He proceeds to tell me he now services and repairs oil burners now after doing a course.

He charges €60. I asked him what type of Analyser did he go for, he hadn't got one yet and didn't plan on getting one as they were "too expensive". He didn't have a pressure gauge either. He did however have a hoover.

shane0007

€29.00 is €25.55 plus VAT. Take out €7.00 for cost of nozzle, that's down to €18.55. Another €1 or so for cleaning sundries. Public liability insurance, vehicle insurance, diesel to get there and back, equipment purchase/replacement, equipment calibration, etc., etc.

Hmmm....

I suppose it is like bringing your car to a main dealer for a service and you hide around the corner and watch them work on it. Low and behold, you see them hoover it out and charge you for a service. Two weeks later, it is still spluttering and drinking fuel. Well, it is the same with a boiler. Set it up correctly and the cost of the service will be paid back in fuel savings and less stress on boiler components from overheating, etc. Soot stops heat being transferred into your heating system, increasing flue temperatures and boiler chamber temperatures, therefore adding extra heat to surrounding components.

Billy Bunting

This is what gets up my nose, the amount of time I go to a new customer and know straight away that the burner has never been touched, I then spend the next hr/hr1/2 sorting out the crap and renewing the parts that should have been charged umpteen times by this stage, you then hand the customer the CD11, print out and bill only to get shock horror “You can’t be serious” my usual guy can do it in 20 minutes and never needs to change any parts. Because of the inferior “service” the customer is use to from Hooverman I now have a customer who thinks they’ve been ripped off, its hard to win.
I find myself asking any new customer, on the phone, When was it last serviced ? Who serviced it? have you got any paperwork left by the engineer last year?

DGOBS

About time oil was regulated so eh!

Will take 3-5 years once the process begins
Hopefully 'watch this space' as plans are afoot!

Cassidy28

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Meet a guy a few days ago who lost his job at a hardware store. He proceeds to tell me he now services and repairs oil burners now after doing a course.

He charges €60. I asked him what type of Analyser did he go for, he hadn't got one yet and didn't plan on getting one as they were "too expensive". He didn't have a pressure gauge either. He did however have a hoover.

A chap i remember off one of the sites i was working on, was in one of the local suppliers recently,he was a Teleporter driver, i asked what he was up to these days he said that he's "busy servicing oil boilers",i asked by the way do you do repairs he said no that he "wouldn't be bothered" with that its to technical, "its way out of my league".I then asked where did you buy you're Analyser he said "whats that" :rolleyes:.

I then asked him how he Knows about servicing oil boilers he said "i look up websites" :rolleyes:.I said i hope you do well for you're self, he said i'm doing good business at the moment "i do landscaping aswell" :eek:.

Cassidy28

Imagine going to the Doctor if there is something wrong with you.and it turns out he/she is not a Doctor at all,there would be absolute uproar its totally totally crazy whats going on in this profession, and how people are being sucked in by these chancers :mad:.

shane0007

I suppose we could be mistaken as doctors, as I pull on the rubber gloves, "trust me, I am a ....."

paddynopower

i took up this offer, i found no problems with them, their guy was here on time which was a great start! he did as much as my normal guy normally does, i think some people are being a bit harsh on here,maybe ye have a vested interest??maybe ye service boilers at over the top prices?? maybe this company arent part of your over charging,rip off ireland cartel??? its rediculous to say they cant make money on the offer, you could say that about all of the companys that use living social. its time the overcharging stopped in this country....€60 is enough for a boiler service!! half price introductory offer? yes please!! and they'l get my next service too! somebody asked about oftec? well iv googled and they seem to be the firm that regulate these guys, if its good enough for them its good enough for me..........(dont knock 'em til youv tried 'em)

DoneDL

paddynopower wrote: »

i took up this offer, i found no problems with them, their guy was here on time which was a great start! he did as much as my normal guy normally does, i think some people are being a bit harsh on here,maybe ye have a vested interest??maybe ye service boilers at over the top prices?? maybe this company arent part of your over charging,rip off ireland cartel??? its rediculous to say they cant make money on the offer, you could say that about all of the companys that use living social. its time the overcharging stopped in this country....€60 is enough for a boiler service!! half price introductory offer? yes please!! and they'l get my next service too! somebody asked about oftec? well iv googled and they seem to be the firm that regulate these guys, if its good enough for them its good enough for me..........(dont knock 'em til youv tried 'em)

paddynopower, "he did as much as my normal guy normally does" and "....€60 is enough for a boiler service!!"

I wonder how long the service took and what the flue gas analysis printout told you. Did the service engineer start at the tank and then deal with the boiler.

the culture of deference

I need my boiler serviced soon, I think I may have duped in the past. I have an internal oil boiler. How will I know if the service man is a conman or not?

Micky Dolenz

the culture of deference wrote: »

I need my boiler serviced soon, I think I may have duped in the past. I have an internal oil boiler. How will I know if the service man is a conman or not?

State on the phone that you will require an emissions print out and the oil pressure check.

You can not service a boiler with a hoover alone.

wush06

DGOBS wrote: »

You know, this type of stuff makes my blood boil.....

With overheads etc, and spending 1-1.5 hrs properly cleaning the boiler, check the flue is clean, checking seals, cleaning baffles and putting is back together (let alone turbulators and condensate trap on HE boilers) checking the flue seals, joints, and renewing fire cement or silicone where required. Dismantling and cleaning the burner, replacing the nozzle, cleaning the electrodes, brushing through the fan, greasing the bearings, replacing seals on hydraulic jacks (G riellos) reassemble, check/set oil pressures, smoke test, seal test, flue gas analysis, leak check all aspects on burner and oil line, inspect the oil storage for possible issues (and there is usually lots) dip the tank to check for water contamination, remove and clean all oil line filters (change where required)

THIS CANNOT BE DONE FOR THIS PRICE. PERIOD

It's like getting your car serviced, whats the point getting it done for €29 if it actually doesnt get filters changed, oil changed and safety checked for you, you may as well not have bothered, if I have to offer this price for my services something is wrong, I have either no customers or have lost them as my servicing is not worth them calling me out in the first place.

I got a lad in my area (who didn't know me) and was offering a similar deal, and i watched over him from afar as if I hadn't a clue, he took the burner off, stuck a hoover in the through the mounting flange, changed the nozzle and got ready to leave, I refused to pay him and reported him to Oftec as a fruad.

The same is happening to gas servicing, small and large companies alike are taking the mick, in and out in 15 minutes, gas safety me a**e, no soundness (leak) testing, no testing gas pressures, gas rating, flue gas analysis, safety device testing, system checks, nothing, quick hoover and a cert, all fun and games until there is a death due to it!

Simple advice, and always has been
a) you get what you pay for
b0 if it looks to good to be true, it usually is

So how much does one of your services cost.

the culture of deference

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

State on the phone that you will require an emissions print out and the oil pressure check.

You can not service a boiler with a hoover alone.

the boiler is under the sealed kitchen counter to the left of the sink, the last guy said there was no need to cut the worktop, he said he could do the job without removing the cover

DGOBS

€90 incl vat, this is inclusive of a nozzle and flexi oil line replacement (included as they should always be changed on every service)

I generally also absorb smaller items, especially for my regular customers, like hyd jack seals, burner/flange o-rings etc.

Also included I generally use a chemical cleaner when required to remove scale build up.

the culture of deference

DGOBS wrote: »

€90 incl vat, this is inclusive of a nozzle and flexi oil line replacement (included as they should always be changed on every service)

I generally also absorb smaller items, especially for my regular customers, like hyd jack seals, burner/flange o-rings etc.

Also included I generally use a chemical cleaner when required to remove scale build up.

i think i will be PM ing you.

what areas do you cover? can you flush rads too

DGOBS

I am not based near Clondalkin sorry, I generally operate in Meath/Louth/North Dublin area.

shane0007

DGOBS wrote: »

€90 incl vat, this is inclusive of a nozzle and flexi oil line replacement (included as they should always be changed on every service)

I generally also absorb smaller items, especially for my regular customers, like hyd jack seals, burner/flange o-rings etc.

Also included I generally use a chemical cleaner when required to remove scale build up.

Isn't flexi-oil line only supposed to be inspected annually and replaced every 5 years unless deterioration is found beforehand? Date stamp on line confirms date of manufacture.

DGOBS

5 years are on long life hoses, rarely come across them, yes hoses are date stamped assuming they haven't sat in your van or a warehouse for a long time!

Standard hoses are 1-2 years lifespan and through bitter experience long ago with a leaking hose after a service I decided replacement on every visit is a better and safer way to operate.

shane0007

My understanding is normal flexi lines are 5 years and long life are 10 years! I will check...

shane0007

Just got the official ruling.

Flexi hoses life span is 5 years and long life hoses is 10 years.

However, if the boiler is located externally, the flexi hose should be replaced every 5 years and if the boiler is located internally, the flexi hose should be replaced every 2 years.

They should all be inspected annually and replaced immediately if any deterioration is suspected.

DGOBS

Did you visit a judge?

Oftec code of practice, 1-5 years for a flexi (standard type) the manufacturer date codes it for 5 years from manufacture, having had a 2 year old flexi internally leak the day after a service, only to return and lift floor covering and find kero everywhere, I replace them every visit, they are not expensive and would rather not go through that again!

Grant has in the past recommended every 2 years.

Also, you may find the ethanol now being added to fuels may have a dramatic effect on rubber hoses (not to mention plastic oil tanks!)

TPM

DGOBS wrote: »

€90 incl vat, this is inclusive of a nozzle and flexi oil line replacement (included as they should always be changed on every service)

I generally also absorb smaller items, especially for my regular customers, like hyd jack seals, burner/flange o-rings etc.

Also included I generally use a chemical cleaner when required to remove scale build up.

I second this price including the small parts. on a boiler I am servicing for the first time I nearly always change the flexi, and every 2 years after that as that is what a some of the boiler manufacturers recommend (Grant and Worcester are two)

Its amazing how few people realise that the oil tank, filter and pipe are to be checked as part of the boiler service

the culture of deference

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

State on the phone that you will require an emissions print out and the oil pressure check.

You can not service a boiler with a hoover alone.

I saw an add for a guy today offering a service for 50euro.

I phoned him up and asked these questions, and got a sheepish ... ah no I don't do that.

Micky Dolenz

the culture of deference wrote: »

I saw an add for a guy today offering a service for 50euro.

I phoned him up and asked these questions, and got a sheepish ... ah no I don't do that.

Welcome to the world of servicing, where service people who do things by the book are "crooks" for over charging. "shur,the guy on the paper can do it for €50, why can't you?"

JohnnieK

TPM wrote: »

Its amazing how few people realise that the oil tank, filter and pipe are to be checked as part of the boiler service

Even has it on the passport not that they fill them in

shane0007

It would be nice to have a similar regulation and certs system as RGII. I know it would be a money spinner for the powers to be but it would be some sort of regulation and paper trail. Would also need a law to back it up.

TPM

there needs to be something done before everyone actually following oftec gets a bad name. I cant count how many times I have pointed out the problems with boilers and tanks that I have serviced and gotten "the last lad that serviced it didnt find anything wrong" "you are only looking for work" "I wont be getting you again"

and there seem to be more and more people taking up the 40-50 euro ads

shane0007

Easiest thing is to always issue a CD11 and get them to sign it. Then the blind eye is their blind eye and will result in a get out clause for any insurance company to pay up should an issue arise.

TPM

I know and thats what I do. just seems like at this stage (without regulation) being oftec registered seems to be costing me more work than it gets me.

it appears to work well in the UK

shane0007

I understand where you are coming from and most feel the same. Repeat business and recommendations will always come your way when the job is done right. Being OFTEC registered in Ireland at the moment just gives some re-assurance to the client that there is a governing body that you subscribe to and you have the suitable training to be a member of. It is also a reference for you, in that if you unsure of a situation, there is a team behind you that can help. Things will change here but not soon enough. Proper membership certification can only be of benefit and the chancers won't make a career or business of it. You will.

TPM

shane0007 wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from and most feel the same. Repeat business and recommendations will always come your way when the job is done right. Being OFTEC registered in Ireland at the moment just gives some re-assurance to the client that there is a governing body that you subscribe to and you have the suitable training to be a member of. It is also a reference for you, in that if you unsure of a situation, there is a team behind you that can help. Things will change here but not soon enough. Proper membership certification can only be of benefit and the chancers won't make a career or business of it. You will.

agreed, just hard at the moment.
At the end of the day the only way to do a job is correctly

JohnnieK

I am OFTEC trained myself but I never registered (Forgot). I have 8 oil customers so I couldn't justify the joining fee for an organization that's not mandatory based on that.

I really hope the oil industry is regulated over here because the 8 I inherited were no where near safe installations. My only fear would be the CER in all there wisdom would bypass OFTEC and get some amateur like RGII to regulate it, We all know the pull Willy Wilson has in there.

Billy Bunting

€90 incl vat, this is inclusive of a nozzle and flexi oil line replacement (included as they should always be changed on every service)

I generally also absorb smaller items, especially for my regular customers, like hyd jack seals, burner/flange o-rings etc.

Also included I generally use a chemical cleaner when required to remove scale build up.

A few lads questioned that i could make a living charging €65 plus parts, can't see too much of a problem here with my mark up on flexi and nozzle and any other parts supplied, i'm only inclusive to gestures of loyalty.
I can also see that a €50 service could also be possible if the engineer is working along the same lines, really all depends on amount of work and overheads at the end of the day, the tires on my Belingo cost considerably less that those on a Transit.

Being OFTEC registered in Ireland at the moment just gives some re-assurance to the client that there is a governing body that you subscribe to and you have the suitable training to be a member of.

Being Oftec registered could be a good thing unfortunetly there are far too many Oftec registered chances out there who will give the rest of us a bad name, time the trainers decided to do the assesments with closed books, sort out the wheat from the chaf, but at the end of the day they are more concerned about profit.

DGOBS

Trainers get paid for a days work nothing more!
Trainers do not make decisions on open or closed book!
It is Oftec that set the standard for these exams, and I for one done all my gas closed book and think its a much better way to learn in many ways.

Billy Bunting

Trainers do not make decisions on open or closed book!

Ok they don't make that decision, but the practice of returning paper one to the candidate when they hand in paper 2 and so on is a decision made by the trainer, as is the blind eye to the confering.:rolleyes: Its a joke and we all know it, how can anyone have the neck to turn up at a customers claiming to be "Oftec trained" when they know nothing, who's really responcable when they buck up?

dinneenp

I have been following this thread with interest.
I'm living in Lackagh, Galway.
I'm looking for someone to service my boiler, just PM me if interested.
Cheers,
Pa.

DGOBS

[/QUOTE]

Ok they don't make that decision, but the practice of returning paper one to the candidate when they hand in paper 2 and so on is a decision made by the trainer, as is the blind eye to the confering.:rolleyes: Its a joke and we all know it, how can anyone have the neck to turn up at a customers claiming to be "Oftec trained" when they know nothing, who's really responcable when they buck up?[/Quote]

Oftec decided to do the 2 attempts approach, again my agreement on it is not in question, they specify it

But I do fully expect my candidates to do it themselves with no assistance, and I turn a blind eye to nothing! I am sure anyone I trained can vouch for that

Other trainers/centres I am not so sure about and have heard of some very fusions practices, personally I believe qualifications are earned and not paid for!

Billy Bunting

I believe qualifications are earned and not paid for!

Agreed.

So the pass rate ain't 100% in your class, bet its close though!