Land Registry Ownership Details

kadman

I,d like to know if the owners of property on a folio number in the land registry, are the only owners involved in the plot numbers there in.

My reason for asking is prior to my purchase of my current house, the council took off about 1/3 of an acre, for road straightening.

And the 2 plots, my own on my side of the road, and the other piece on the other side of the road, are still marked on my folio as my land. Am I still the legal owner of the piece that was cut off.

I would have thought that if the council owned the cut off piece, my deeds would reflect this. This was done over 30 years ago, but I had my folio recently worked on, and both plots are still marked as my property.

If the council owned the other piece, should there be documents in existence to reflect this.

Thanks

kadman

Tom Young

That's great. Have you contacted the PRA or Registry of Deeds?

Don't ventilate any more detail if you intend to sue or do something more.

You might also read the charter, in case you haven't already.

kadman

Tom Young wrote: »

That's great. Have you contacted the PRA or Registry of Deeds?

Don't ventilate any more detail if you intend to sue or do something more.

You might also read the charter, in case you haven't already.

Sorry about that, I dont intend to sue anybody. I,m living in my house 30 years, and I,d just like to know ,in legal terms what document defines the owner of the plots on my folio.

I,ll check the charter now.:o


apologies,

kadman

Tom Young

Great. No need to apologise.

People come on here looking for advice a lot and could compromise themselves in the process. PRA, etc. should assist. Many planning depts have online search facilities where anyone can see CPOd folios, etc.

Good luck.

kadman

I just want to clarify I was not looking for advice regarding any legal issue:),

I was really looking for an opinion on what document is regarded as the proper source for identifying a landowner,

I,d like to be able to check my land folio documents against an up to date database.

Local planning it is then, thanks.:)

Speedy result, nice:cool:

kadman

Tom Young

Pop back if you hit issues. Can be the case that folios aren't registered properly, or in a relatively detailed fashion - but there is usually some planning trace date available to assist you - This would be normal enough in the circumstances.

kadman

Tom Young wrote: »

Pop back if you hit issues. Can be the case that folios aren't registered properly, or in a relatively detailed fashion - but there is usually some planning trace date available to assist you - This would be normal enough in the circumstances.

Would there normally be documentation relating to the councils use of land in such a case, on the deeds. There was a deed of discharge done in 2007, so the docs are pretty up to date.



kadman

Tom Young

Not 100% sure about that. If you mean the zoning, then that will usually be detailed in a development plan, somewhere.

kadman

Tom Young wrote: »

Not 100% sure about that. If you mean the zoning, then that will usually be detailed in a development plan, somewhere.

Not the zoning as such.

But the works done that divided a bit of the land, and subsequently created 2 plots from one. The 2 are on the 2007 title as mine. But I dont want to plant cabbages on the councils plot, if in fact they do own it:D:D:D

kadman

Hippo

Just contact the PRA directly. If there's an error on the folio they will (usually) have copies of all the background documentation covering all transactions concerning the folio. It's your first port of call.

nuac

1. Please note that Land Registry ( now {PRA )boundaries are not conclusive - there is a note to that effect on LR maps.

2. Council may have acquired land by CPO for roadwidening. If a CPO order and/or transfer were involved this may show up in time in the PRA.

3. However a lot of land required for road widening is simply "dedicated" - an agreement to dedicate the land for roads purposess, with an agreement to execute a transfer if required, A deducation agreement would not be registered .

4. A highway is a highway from fence to fence. So even if some map shows you still owner of what is now part of a highway, forget it.

kadman

Hippo wrote: »

Just contact the PRA directly. If there's an error on the folio they will (usually) have copies of all the background documentation covering all transactions concerning the folio. It's your first port of call.

I,m currently waiting on word back from the land registry ireland website. I have a folio copy from 2007, and one from 1983, and there appears to be no difference, except the council were taken off it in 2007.

I,ll keep you posted anyway on the outcome.

kadman

kadman

nuac wrote: »

1. Please note that Land Registry ( now {PRA )boundaries are not conclusive - there is a note to that effect on LR maps.

2. Council may have acquired land by CPO for roadwidening. If a CPO order and/or transfer were involved this may show up in time in the PRA.

3. However a lot of land required for road widening is simply "dedicated" - an agreement to dedicate the land for roads purposess, with an agreement to execute a transfer if required, A deducation agreement would not be registered .

4. A highway is a highway from fence to fence. So even if some map shows you still owner of what is now part of a highway, forget it.

Thanks for your inpu.

By agreement, I assume you mean between the previous owner and the council. Would/should this agreement be in writing, or attached to the land title in your opinion.

Its not a highway as such. Its where the end of my plot made a 90 degree roadway, and a large corner was taken off my plot, to soften the bend. The triangular piece is now the far side of the road, and has a seperate plot number. Presumably created when the division was made. My folio says I own the 2 plots.

I assume that the ne Folio sent to me from PRA will be the most updated, is it a legal and binding document. If I chose to sell my house, will this document be the sole document outlining the owners of my property.

I,ll keep you posted on the progress, thanks for your opinion on the subject.

kadman

Peregrinus

Have you any reason to think you don't own the plot on the other side of the road? Is someone else using it, or occupying it?

nuac

Kadman

A dedication agreement is in writing. many owners, or reputed oweners sign them without informing their solicitors. If you are thinkng of sellling, the agreement should be included in documents given to purchaser.

As have already stated the Land Registry map is not conclusive as to boundaries.

kadman

Peregrinus wrote: »

Have you any reason to think you don't own the plot on the other side of the road? Is someone else using it, or occupying it?

Its only since my folio was updated in 2007, that both plots are marked as 2,4 and my details ib the folio say I own both plots. I had always assumed, that when the council re routed the road 30 odd years ago, that they took the piece across the road. Even though I have no documents to show this.

When I originally bought the house, the only reference ever made was, " the council took the corner off the plot, for the road. So I assumed all the documentation would support that, but it doesn,t. They effectively moved the country road further into my plot.

So I am not really sure whether its mine or not, even though the portfolio says it is.

I am still waiting for e mail contact from the land registry at the moment.

kadman

kadman

nuac wrote: »

Kadman

A dedication agreement is in writing. many owners, or reputed oweners sign them without informing their solicitors. If you are thinkng of sellling, the agreement should be included in documents given to purchaser.

As have already stated the Land Registry map is not conclusive as to boundaries.

So would it be your opinion that if it was sold to the council 30 years ago, that they might have a copy of it. And if they did get ownership of it 30 years ago, surely the plot would now reflect their ownership on an appropriate folio of theirs. As it stands it still is on my folio.

Maybe there is no document in existence, in your opinion would their still be an ownership issue.

I understand the inconclusiveness in relation to boundaries, but this is not a boundary issue, as its clearly marked as 2 seperate plots, on my folio.

kadman

nuac

Kadsman

I dont want to start giving legal opinions especially on the small amount of information here.

You should contact the solicitor who acted on the purchase - (s)he should have details of the transaction with the Co Co.

kadman

nuac wrote: »

Kadsman

I dont want to start giving legal opinions especially on the small amount of information here.

You should contact the solicitor who acted on the purchase - (s)he should have details of the transaction with the Co Co.

Sorry, I was not looking for a legal opinion,

I was just trying to understand how the process works, in such a matter. And just to clarify, there was no transaction relating to the council, from my solicitor acting for me, nor from the sellers solicitor to me. As the question was asked of both at that time.

I intend to go back to my solicitor just to get the matter clarified, as soon as I have the documents from the land registry, that shows the current data available, as of today.

Thanks

kadman

newmug

I'm in a similar situation myself Kadman. I own the end house in a row of houses, the house next door is a council house, and there is a street in front of, and down the side of my property. On my folio map, the borders are all wrong. It shows that the councils border from the side road, comes across my yard in such a way that it slices right down the middle of my house!

So far, the council hasnt noticed this. Its been that way since the side road was built, 70 years ago. I'm terrified to go to a solicitor in case there's some legal obligation on them to inform the council of the error. What would happen then? Could the council claim some right to what is MY property, could they just arrive some morning and bulldoze half of my house down?

Does anyone know of a way that this could be rectified without going to a solicitor or the council? Could the PRA send someone out to map the physical boundaries and fix my folio map accordingly?

Peregrinus

newmug wrote: »

Does anyone know of a way that this could be rectified without going to a solicitor or the council? Could the PRA send someone out to map the physical boundaries and fix my folio map accordingly?

No. There's no presumption that the "legal" boundaries follow any physical boundary markers that may be on the land.

newmug wrote: »

So far, the council hasnt noticed this. Its been that way since the side road was built, 70 years ago. I'm terrified to go to a solicitor in case there's some legal obligation on them to inform the council of the error. What would happen then? Could the council claim some right to what is MY property, could they just arrive some morning and bulldoze half of my house down?

I understand your nervousness, but you need to sort this out, and you can't do it without involving the Council at some point. The house is unsaleable, and therefore worthless, until you can show that you have good title to the land you are wanting to sell. Since it could take a bit of time to sort out, I wouldn't put this off until you actually want to sell the house. Talk to a solicitor.

newmug

Peregrinus wrote: »

Since it could take a bit of time to sort out, I wouldn't put this off until you actually want to sell the house. Talk to a solicitor.

I wont be selling anytime soon. But are you sure talking to a solicitor wouldnt invoke some outdated barony of the saxony of the sherriff law from hundreds of years ago that would mean I owe 1000 years rent or something? You know how incompetant Irish law is!

dats_right

newmug wrote: »

I wont be selling anytime soon. But are you sure talking to a solicitor wouldnt invoke some outdated barony of the saxony of the sherriff law from hundreds of years ago that would mean I owe 1000 years rent or something? You know how incompetant Irish law is!

With respect it isn't Irish law that is incompetent here. The situation is that you have no legal knowledge and hope to rectify a boundary issue. Best of luck with that. Do yourself a favour and go to a solicitor, who will advise you on what needs to be done. It won't be as bad as you think.

kadman

newmug wrote: »

I'm in a similar situation myself Kadman. I own the end house in a row of houses, the house next door is a council house, and there is a street in front of, and down the side of my property. On my folio map, the borders are all wrong. It shows that the councils border from the side road, comes across my yard in such a way that it slices right down the middle of my house!

So far, the council hasnt noticed this. Its been that way since the side road was built, 70 years ago. I'm terrified to go to a solicitor in case there's some legal obligation on them to inform the council of the error. What would happen then? Could the council claim some right to what is MY property, could they just arrive some morning and bulldoze half of my house down?

Does anyone know of a way that this could be rectified without going to a solicitor or the council? Could the PRA send someone out to map the physical boundaries and fix my folio map accordingly?

I think an hours consultation with a solicitor would be money well spent, and at least you would know what to do to sort out the issue.

I am waiting for a certified copy of title and map, and then I,m going to chat to my solicitor to see what I actually own.

On my foilio map, there are 2 seperate plots. The coucil, prior to my purchase re routed a roadmore or less along the boundary seperating 2 plots. But my title still shows the 2 plots, and says I own both.On my title that was updated in 2007 the page marked 1 B Property Parts Transferred, is blank. So I dont believe the second plot away from my house, was ever taken by the council, but I was given the impression it was.

I have a small map showing exactly the plots in question, sent to me yesterday from the land registry just to identify it.

It has no location details on it, so can I post it mods to clarify my queries.

thanks

kadman

PS

If the council took the plot 60 years ago a, and never registered it as the councils on the land registry, and if its still on my folio, would anyone like to offer an opinion as to who owns it now.
Thankyou

kadman

I just got a copy of the Folio and map for my property from the land registry office. A certified copy is also on its way by post.

I was told the following by the land registry.

The council essentially owns the land as they maintain the road, but they only own the bit they maintain so the rest is yours

So I,ll double check with my solicitor........and then plant the cabbages:D

Looks like I now have the use of another .4 of an acre.

kadman

kadman

Do all compulsory purchase orders by the council, have to be reflected on the land title. Would there ever be a case where it was not. As I assume that compulsory purchase orders create new boundaries, hence the need for new titles to show ownership of whatever new plots have been created. Thanks

kadman

kadman

I,ve just found this on the Land Registry Site.

http://www.landregistry.ie/eng/Legal_Professional_Customers/Frequently_Asked_Questions/Land_Registry_FAQs1.html#Q2

The title shown on the folio is guaranteed by the State which is bound to indemnify any person who suffers loss through a mistake made by the Land Registry. A purchaser can, therefore, accept the folio as evidence of title without having to read the relevant deeds.

If hypothetically , for instance I acted in good faith, based on the Title sent to me yesterday. And landcaped and fenced all of the second plot, and it turned out that the title was wrong, and the council owned the second plot. Would the State cover my losses I incurred, due to them supplying me incorrect information.

Thanks

kadman

kadman

I have just received my certified map and folio from the Land registry. And I am all set to see my solicitor tomorrow.

I notice the letters in capitals "UND" on one of my plots. Can someone explain what this means.

thanks

kadman

dermot_sheehan

kadman wrote: »

I,ve just found this on the Land Registry Site.



If hypothetically , for instance I acted in good faith, based on the Title sent to me yesterday. And landcaped and fenced all of the second plot, and it turned out that the title was wrong, and the council owned the second plot. Would the State cover my losses I incurred, due to them supplying me incorrect information.

Thanks

kadman

The Land Registry system is conclusive as to the existence of title but not the extent (i.e. boundaries of that title). section 85 Registration of Title Act 1964
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/act/pub/0016/sec0085.html#sec85

Registered land shall be described by the names of the denominations on the Ordnance Survey maps in which the lands are included, or by reference to such maps, in such manner as the Registrar thinks best calculated to secure accuracy, but, except as provided by this Act, the description of the land in the register or on such maps shall not be conclusive as to the boundaries or extent of the land.

kadman

dermot_sheehan wrote: »

The Land Registry system is conclusive as to the existence of title but not the extent (i.e. boundaries of that title). section 85 Registration of Title Act 1964
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/act/pub/0016/sec0085.html#sec85

Would I be correct in saying, that as the plot in question is completely enclosed by council roads, its up to them to give me the guidelines in relation to fencing my plot.

thanks

tim

newmug

dermot_sheehan wrote: »

The Land Registry system is conclusive as to the existence of title but not the extent (i.e. boundaries of that title). section 85 Registration of Title Act 1964
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/act/pub/0016/sec0085.html#sec85

Well then what, exactly, legally protects the location of your boundaries?

kadman

Well I spent an hour today with the solicitor, and his opinion is that I own the title for the plot in question, but I do not own the plot physically.

He is quite adamant that the council do own it, but never registered it over 60 years ago. And he says this often happens. He says the council have used it to put posts, water mains, water meters on............therefore that is sufficient proof of ownership legally.

As neither myself nor the previous tenant, had physical posession of it, by use, for at least 60 years.

He admits the the title needs to be updated, and suggested a mutual meeting with the council, whereby they agree to do all the work necessary to the boundary, survey, legal ect , in return for co operation on my part in transfering the title to them.

Apparently I own the title in the register, but not the plot.

I was concerned about any liability on my part in relation to accidents on it, if I am the registered owner. He says that is not an issue, but recommends tidying up the issue, as outlined.

I,m happy enough at that, and asked him the bill. I was with him for 45 minutes, and threw questions at him for sport. He said the consultation was on the house.:)

happy days

kadman

nuac

"threw questions for sport" ? (s)he should have charged you.

Anyhow good luck with your title

kadman

nuac wrote: »

"threw questions for sport" ? (s)he should have charged you.

Anyhow good luck with your title

I did have 500 euro in my wallet, in case he got silly with his pricing:D

kadman