Run a Diesel Car on Kerosene?

_AVALANCHE_

Is it possible to do this?

..not unless you call home heating oil kerosene, actual kerosene will wreck a diesel engine.

AugustusMinimus

She'll go 300 hectares on a single tank of kerosene

Where To

RoverJames wrote: »

..not unless you call home heating oil kerosene, actual kerosene will wreck a diesel engine.

It's still possible though . . . . .

deandean

Sure run it on a tankfull and post how you get on.

Stinicker

Its illegal and the Kerosene will burn out the injectors in the engine, so you will face two massive bills if caught and when the engine goes kaput. Agricultural green diesel is also used as heating oil in older systems, this is also illegal but works just the same as white road diesel. With the price of fuel its use must skyrocketing I imagine and I can't blame people really with the crippling amount of taxation on fuel.

Row

Kerosene has very poor lubrication properties so it can wear the internals of
most injector pumps in a very short period....:eek:
Also Kerosene burns alot hotter than diesel.

As well as the legal aspect of using kerosene in a road vehicle it is
not recommended..

Some say if you mix engine oil with Kerosene on the older diesels then it burns fine..:)

If anyone uses Kerosene in a newer common rail diesels then they'll be fitting a new high pressure pump and a set of injectors at a cost of a couple a grand.:eek:

Chimaera

With the price of fuel its use must skyrocketing I imagine and I can't blame people really with the crippling amount of taxation on fuel.

The week on week price increases are due to the distributors jacking up pre-tax prices. Excise and VAT don't change very much, and only once a year.

Kerosene has very poor lubricity compared to diesel. Many of the moving parts in a modern diesel fuel injection system depend on the lubricating properties of the fuel for lubrication, so you can expect catastrophic and expensive failures if you put it in there.

If you have a good quality source of biodiesel (rare in this country) then you can mix it 50/50 with the kerosene and it should be ok. Biodiesel has exceptional lubricity compared to mineral fuels, and is often mandated as a lubricity enhancer. (Note this won't get you out of the legal issue: only way out of that is to fill out a revenue declaration on the use of the fuel and pay whatever duty is owed).

Both biodiesel and kerosene have a lower calorific value than dino diesel, so expect a power and economy hit on these fuels too.

Matt Simis

RoverJames wrote: »

..not unless you call home heating oil kerosene, actual kerosene will wreck a diesel engine.

But we (unlike the UK) do call Home Heating Oil / 28 Second Oil - "Kerosene". And its better that way as "Home Heating Oil" is a vague and misleading term. Paraffin (ye olde British term) is even more ambiguous as its not scientifically accurate and could refer to a load of different oils and waxes.

Various forms/derivatives of the same Kerosene used as Home Heating oil are used as both Jet and Rocket Fuel.


Anyhow, yes you can burn Kero in a Diesel engine. Yes, burns marginally hotter and has worse lubrication, but you can combat this by adding some Veg oil (or clean Motor oil or an actual proper diesel Oil lubricant). Most people find Diesels run smoother and gain power on Kerosene as its a less viscous liquid it actually sprays better (the opposite of BioDiesel, which tends to be more viscous leading to atomisation problems in the higher pressure common rails). The fine (penalty) varies all over the place for burning a marked oil in a road car, from EUR300 to 3000.

And yes, I did test this, Im not just quoting hearsay. Audibly smoother, more power, less (no) smoke, a much better fuel, just ruined by Government taxation and rules.

AugustusMinimus

Would adding two stoke oil in with kerosene help ?

Marlow

Also, a percentage of kero is used in regular road diesel during winter time, so that your diesel stays usable at low temperatures.

/M

Marlow

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Would adding two stoke oil in with kerosene help ?

Actually, two stroke oil is even supposed to help in road diesel. In small amount though, mind ya.

/M

Weylin

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Would adding two stoke oil in with kerosene help ?

adding some of this may help (or maybe not)http://www.dipetane.ie/

:..........But we (unlike the UK) do call Home Heating Oil / 28 Second Oil - "Kerosene". And its better that way as "Home Heating Oil" is a vague and misleading term. Paraffin (ye olde British term) is even more ambiguous as its not scientifically accurate and could refer to a load of different oils and waxes:........

INdeed, green diesel heating oil and kerosene heating oil as different products, the later I refer to as kerosene and the former as home heating oil, one used straight won't wreak a diesed, the other will

Wheelnut

Matt Simis wrote: »

... but you can combat this by adding some Veg oil (or clean Motor oil or an actual proper diesel Oil lubricant)....

Aw shucks, I'm still looking for a way to get a few more miles out of my old engine oil after a change!

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Would adding two stoke oil in with kerosene help ?

I always thought that two-stroke was similar to four stroke but was treated so that it would not settle out of the mix when the engine was stopped.

_AVALANCHE_

Chimaera wrote: »

Kerosene has very poor lubricity compared to diesel. Many of the moving parts in a modern diesel fuel injection system depend on the lubricating properties of the fuel for lubrication, so you can expect catastrophic and expensive failures if you put it in there.

If you have a good quality source of biodiesel (rare in this country) then you can mix it 50/50 with the kerosene and it should be ok. Biodiesel has exceptional lubricity compared to mineral fuels, and is often mandated as a lubricity enhancer.

Both biodiesel and kerosene have a lower calorific value than dino diesel, so expect a power and economy hit on these fuels too.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Anyhow, yes you can burn Kero in a Diesel engine. Yes, burns marginally hotter and has worse lubrication, but you can combat this by adding some Veg oil (or clean Motor oil or an actual proper diesel Oil lubricant).

Most people find Diesels run smoother and gain power on Kerosene as its a less viscous liquid it actually sprays better (the opposite of BioDiesel, which tends to be more viscous leading to atomisation problems in the higher pressure common rails). The fine (penalty) varies all over the place for burning a marked oil in a road car, from EUR300 to 3000.

And yes, I did test this, Im not just quoting hearsay. Audibly smoother, more power, less (no) smoke, a much better fuel, just ruined by Government taxation and rules.

How much oil/lub would you need to add to say 20 litres of Kero?

darragh o meara

On a modern diesel it's suicide to put it into as you have complex depoloution systems that will go haywire at the first sniff of it plus burning hotter will cause everything else to get hotter and catalytic convertors and dpf filter really don't like that and will most likely s hit themselves and burn up and that's before everything else involved in the complex injection system decides there is not enough lubrication in the oil and cause all manor of trouble.

However....... If its an old yoke and I'm leaning particularly towards the old diesel merc and vw engines ( ie mid 80s to early 90s ) as I've seen these first hand, these will run on just about anything you throw into them, veg oil, chip oil, kerosene mixed with a bit of veg oil and a few other things. I know of a person who has an old merc diesel engine running a generator for his workshop and he uses it every day. Apart from a preheated for the fuel and a regular filter change he's been successful at running it on a few different fuels. The same fella got his hands on 1500 litres of petrol and diesel mixed together and this ran the engine no bother for a long long time. Nowadays even waste engine oil gets thrown in every now and again and it works fine.

HAMMERCURRENT

I have seen several car filling with kero north of the border, the colour of this fuel (in the North) looks the same as road diesel to me, clear with a slight yellow tint, so I wonder if you were dipped how would the customs know the difference? without taking a sample for analisys. I haven't tried it in a car but it keeps my house nice and warm!

Twin-go

Chimaera wrote: »

The week on week price increases are due to the distributors jacking up pre-tax prices. Excise and VAT don't change very much, and only once a year.

Excise and VAT are a % of the pre-tax price. So when that is "jacked -up" the amount of excise and VAT also increases.

The Irish motorist must be one of the highest taxed in the Eurozone once you take into accout new car VAT, excise and VRT, annual motor tax, VAT and excise on fuel, NCT, VAT on tolls, VAT on parts, servicing, labour, environmental charges for disposal of used oil and tyres.

Chuck Stone

Do turbine engine cars run on kerosene?

Matt Simis

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

How much oil/lub would you need to add to say 20 litres of Kero?

Not that there is a hard and fast rule, but 1litre mixed in well would be my estimate. Remember that even if the thinner (less viscous) fluid was in the minority, the effect on the volume of liquid is exaggerated, so in this case the thinner fluid is the majority, so dont worry too much bout putting in "too much".

I did testing last year on the % Veg Oil and its effect on flow when blended with Kerosene:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056142768&page=5

Table reposted:

[B][SIZE="4"]Fluid         Time to Flow 1litre[/SIZE][/B]

[B][U]Straight Fuels[/U][/B]
100% Kerosene     16sec
100% Veg Oil      37sec
100% Diesel - Not tested, estimated 20sec

[B][U]Blends[/U][/B]
30% VOil           22sec
50% VOil           25sec
70% VOil           27sec
90% VOil           34sec

I didnt have any diesel to test, just Kerosene as the baseline and kerosene is less viscous than diesel (thinner), so it will outflow diesel. Still a lot more viscous than petrol though.
There was a noticeable difference in noise from the pump when pumping the high oil concentrations vs the straight kero.


So... 30% Veg Oil 70% Kero is likely close enough to Diesel in terms of viscosity, considering the Diesel engine needs to operate at both -12 and +40c temps, 100% Diesel at -5c is likely thicker than 30% Veg Oil mixed with Kero at +5c.

Stovepipe

I saw a generator that had been run on a rough diesel/kerosene mix fail suddenly. It screeched, began to throw out lots of smoke and threw a conrod through the crankcase, in a few seconds.And then went on fire. Very noisy and an unforgettable spectacle to watch.Be careful with running on kero.

regards
Stovepipe

Matt Simis

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Do turbine engine cars run on kerosene?

Its a jet turbine, so it runs on JET A/B or A1 which are Kerosene type fuels.

Generally Jets / Turbines = Kerosene and Piston engined aircraft = AvGas which is a petrol type fuel.

Stovepipe wrote: »

I saw a generator that had been run on a rough diesel/kerosene mix fail suddenly. It screeched, began to throw out lots of smoke and threw a conrod through the crankcase, in a few seconds.And then went on fire. Very noisy and an unforgettable spectacle to watch.Be careful with running on kero.

regards
Stovepipe

..and what has that to do with Kerosene? If it had been run on Diesel from Topaz, would you have blamed the diesel?

Stovepipe

What it has to do with the kerosene is that the operator of the generator was trying to skimp on having to use diesel so he tipped in kerosene instead, despite the fact that kerosene is known not to have the same lubricating qualities as regular diesel. This, despite the fact that the guy in question is an aircraft engineer, who certainly knew better. As posters here have outlined,it destroys injection pumps and as I witnessed, also destroys rugged industrial engines. From what I know, people who use kero in diesel engines usually mix it with diesel or two-stroke oil or biodiesel or even engine lubricating oil, in similar ratios to two-stroke mix but they never run it on pure kerosene.

regards
Stovepipe

_AVALANCHE_

Does everyone agree that it can't be used on newer type engines?

How old would a car have to be, to be safe with a mix?

kilianmanning

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

Does everyone agree that it can't be used on newer type engines?

How old would a car have to be, to be safe with a mix?

anything non common rail, any unrefined diesel engine

Matt Simis

Stovepipe wrote: »

What it has to do with the kerosene is that the operator of the generator was trying to skimp on having to use diesel so he tipped in kerosene instead, despite the fact that kerosene is known not to have the same lubricating qualities as regular diesel. This, despite the fact that the guy in question is an aircraft engineer, who certainly knew better. As posters here have outlined,it destroys injection pumps and as I witnessed, also destroys rugged industrial engines. From what I know, people who use kero in diesel engines usually mix it with diesel or two-stroke oil or biodiesel or even engine lubricating oil, in similar ratios to two-stroke mix but they never run it on pure kerosene.

regards
Stovepipe

Thats an example of someone being stupid, 100% kero with no lubricant.. to what end? Pointless but not really what anyone is suggesting and surely pretty painfully obvious. I'm the one suggesting running with diesel, biodiesel, two stroke oil or even engine lubricating oil btw..?
PS, lol @ signoff, your passport must raise eyebrows.

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

Does everyone agree that it can't be used on newer type engines? How old would a car have to be, to be safe with a mix?

Well I wasnt advocating pure kerosene in any engine, but a mix with diesel and an additional lubricant is (in my non-professional opinion) ok even in modern engines. Its not like trying to run BioDiesel (which Im a fan of, but it has its issues) which is thicker, contains acids and water if not made correctly and has gelling problems when winter cold.

Kerosene on the otherhand will pump and spray though the latest injectors even better than diesel, but as noted, will not lubricate as much. Note however its not like running petrol which effectively has no lubrication, its just not as good as diesel.

No one is going to "tell" you whats save and isnt however, its just opinion.

shawnee

Yeah , I would concur that tinkering around with the fuel on the modern diesels is suicide. I know of several who have run the old 80s mercs and vws which will run fine on veg oil or other mixtures and the regular change of filters is all that's required. Now on the other hand recently heard of a guy running one of the more modern Toyota Amazons on the same mixture and all went well for a couple of months and suddenly all hell broke lose , oil pressure dropped , injectors shagged and basically engine packed in:o
Makes sense really , when you see the different performance on the older diesels that chugged along and the modern turbo yokes that will outrun some petrol cars .

Where To

HAMMERCURRENT wrote: »

I have seen several car filling with kero north of the border, the colour of this fuel (in the North) looks the same as road diesel to me, clear with a slight yellow tint, so I wonder if you were dipped how would the customs know the difference? without taking a sample for analisys. I haven't tried it in a car but it keeps my house nice and warm!

They wouldn't need to dip, just unscrew the cap

lomb

The only thing kerosene is good for is jet turbine engines and certain home heating boilers. Why even have this discussion?
If you want to avoid excise and partial VAT then get 1000 liters of marked gas oil delivered to your house. Id say the chances of being dipped are slim but saying that I personally wouldn't do it.

Matt Simis

lomb wrote: »

The only thing kerosene is good for is jet turbine engines and certain home heating boilers. Why even have this discussion?
If you want to avoid excise and partial VAT then get 1000 liters of marked gas oil delivered to your house. Id say the chances of being dipped are slim but saying that I personally wouldn't do it.

Lies!
Its good for reducing viscosity in BioDiesel and PPO, infact its excellent. Also good for $hits and giggles.
I know what you are saying though, since the penalty for either marked fuel is the same, if thats the only agenda, might as well use the one that actually is diesel.

bbam

I know a few lads round here used to run older Transporter's, Vento's and Golf's.. They were adding 1l of cooking oil to a tank of kerosene to improve the lubrication..
Three or four lads were at it all the time and non that I know off had engine problems and it was much cheaper...

Esel

HAMMERCURRENT wrote: »

I have seen several car filling with kero north of the border, the colour of this fuel (in the North) looks the same as road diesel to me, clear with a slight yellow tint, so I wonder if you were dipped how would the customs know the difference? without taking a sample for analisys. I haven't tried it in a car but it keeps my house nice and warm!

So, you think the Customs folks only do a visual check when they dip a vehicle? They use a test kit which will indicate the presence of marker(s), regardless of 'colour'.

Matt Simis

Esel wrote: »

So, you think the Customs folks only do a visual check when they dip a vehicle? They use a test kit which will indicate the presence of marker(s), regardless of 'colour'.

Dont they only do this if the colour is there though? The chemical tracer is virtually impossible to remove, but it still takes time and effort to do it, which is one of the reasons behind the dye.

Where To

They don't need to see it at all, they will smell it as soon as they open the tank.

Esel

Matt Simis wrote: »

Dont they only do this if the colour is there though? The chemical tracer is virtually impossible to remove, but it still takes time and effort to do it, which is one of the reasons behind the dye.

Wouldn't washed diesel have the 'right' colour, though? i.e. colour looks kosher, but the chemical markers are still there - ergo test to detect them.

Matt Simis

Esel wrote: »

Wouldn't washed diesel have the 'right' colour, though? i.e. colour looks kosher, but the chemical markers are still there - ergo test to detect them.

I dont follow your logic!
My understanding is they only do the chemical (specific gravity actually isnt it?) test if they have suspicion/reason to. Which is why washed diesel is... washed clear. If they properly tested every single car they pulled regardless of colour of fuel, then there would be [nearly] no reason to go to the time and expense of washing it with harsh chemicals in the first place.

AugustusMinimus

Matt Simis wrote: »

I dont follow your logic!
My understanding is they only do the chemical (specific gravity actually isnt it?) test if they have suspicion/reason to. Which is why washed diesel is... washed clear. If they properly tested every single car they pulled regardless of colour of fuel, then there would be [nearly] no reason to go to the time and expense of washing it with harsh chemicals in the first place.

I thought most washed diesel is washed so that the general public will buy it without knowing it's actually agri diesel ?

Esel

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I thought most washed diesel is washed so that the general public will buy it without knowing it's actually agri diesel ?

Exactly.

Matt Simis wrote: »

I dont follow your logic!
My understanding is they only do the chemical (specific gravity actually isnt it?) test if they have suspicion/reason to. Which is why washed diesel is... washed clear. If they properly tested every single car they pulled regardless of colour of fuel, then there would be [nearly] no reason to go to the time and expense of washing it with harsh chemicals in the first place.

You should have quoted my post so I knew what I had said!

Nothing to do with SG, afaik.

What I meant was that if they decide to test the contents of a tank, it will be done via a kit to identify the presence of the relevant chemical marker(s). They won't just have a goo at the colour of the liquid and leave it at that.

Someone above said the smell is a giveaway, but all I could say is that it does not smell like petrol.... never sucked diesel!

shainevaldez96

well you can but i have a mercedes-benz 300-d and i had to once because the temp went it to the sub zero's and my block heater glow plugs and tank heater still would not keep the diesel from gelling up but after i had to replace all filter's in the vehicle and it wasn't fun so my suggestion is if you don't have to then don't but you can if it's a must just becareful the fines are pritty high.

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