Why has there not been any riots?

Markcheese

Could it be that as a nation we're wise to the fact that that mass protests are organised by anarchaists nay Sayers and nimbies.
That they always get hijacked by socialist this and left something else to tell the establishment something u weren't on board with.
Or that a riot would only destroy all the stuff we'd overborrowed to build anyway so we'd have to pay for it again...
Or that our union leaders are part of the fat cat establishment, so no credibility

NAH, it's cos the dole we're borrowing a fortune to pay is so good....
Bread and circuses for the masses.....

HalloweenJack

Rhamiel wrote: »

I took a cab when I was in the States over the summer, the driver seemed to know a surprising amount about Irelands economic problems. His unbiased and heartily refreshing view was that "You guys should go tell the E.U. to go F**k themselves"

And that's why he's a taxi driver.

What would happen if you got a mortgage and then you told the bank to **** off? This is, more or less, the situation for us. We needed the money, the EU/IMF helped us out but it's not unconditional. It was never going to be a gift, it was always a loan.

And it's not the EU or the IMF's fault. It's that of the previous Government and their rotten connections with the banks. FG and Labour aren't doing a great job but there are some signs of improvement and a lot of people seem to be forgetting, already, that they wouldn't have to be the bad guy if it weren't for FF making a right mess of the country.

Property bubble, bank guarantee, NAMA, EU/IMF bailout = all FF endeavours. The people copped on and got rid of them but someone still needs to clean up the mess. It'd be a thankless chore for whoever had to take it on.

TwoShedsJackson

A New York taxi driver told you this? They are such well known beacons of knowledge, we should do what he said immediately!!

The main reason there is little to no rioting in Ireland is because the majority of cuts and taxes are being aimed at the middle class, the ones who have been brought up comfortably, were living comfortably before and during the 'boom', and can still get by now. They were and are too comfortable to riot.

Unless the government cuts the dole by 50%, tears up the Croke Park Agreement, cuts PS wages by 40% and sacks 40,000 PS workers, you're not going to see any rioting here.

Gilldog

Why don't you organise the riot OP, and we'll all be there....er, if I have nothing else on that day.

Simple truth is, if you want violence and screaming and angry rage you're just gonna have to pay to see it in the cinema like everybody else.

tigger123

JeffK88 wrote: »

Ireland has a bad record for protesting against anything we tend to bend over and let anyone have a go. The simple fact is the Irish are cowards always have been. I for one am making a stand against this through household charge protests hopefully this will lead to people seeing that marching and standing up against this government and Europe ( The Forth Reich ) ...... but then again it is Irish we are talking about

We also managed to fight for our own independence OP.

If you think rioting will help, go for it! Knock yourself out!

Personally I don't see how knocking seven shades out of each other is going to improve the situation.

token101

Because despite what the media will have you believe, an awful lot of people in this country, if not most people, still have a relatively decent standard of living. Things are probably tight for most people, but only dire enough to riot for very few. Besides, what's a riot going to do for us? **** all.

Biggins

ballsymchugh wrote: »

there are other threads on this topic?? what?? i'm outraged!!

i should....

grr...

erm...

write a strongly worded letter to someone...

what's the address for arthur's mailbag??

LOL Showing your age there?

Bless, the younger ones wouldn't get it!
(I'm no spring chicken either. )

noddyone2

Because we are sheep, following the flock leader, no matter where. Household charge etc. etc. Price of mutton might go down with so many sheep around.

Greentopia

I wouldn't agree with rioting or violence but I think more peaceful protest is called for.

Apart from anything it's part of good citizenship to protest unfair or unjust laws or infringment on civil rights by peaceful means like general strikes, occupation, sit-ins, demonstrations, civil disobedience, and so on.

Most of the rest of Europe understands that, just a pity our history and over a decade of neoliberalism here has made so many of us so apathetic, obedient to the ruling elite and resigned to our fate.

average_runner

And rioting in Greece has got them so far like!!

JeffK88

JeffK88 wrote: »

............. I for one am making a stand against this through household charge protests.............

I can't really understand the household charge protest folk, why didn't ye have a big protest when the USC came in?

Sergeant

Just goes to show that taxi drivers talk nonsensical shít in every country in the world.

curlzy

:rolleyes:
Ah this again. OP you're wasting your time. The majority of AH thinks protesting anything is pointless and uncool, you'll hear a millions different excuses like they don't like the unions that attend, blah blah blah. Honestly I think it might be from an inferiority complex from being oppressed for so long maybe? I really think Irish have zero unity and I'm not sure why but we seem to be more intent on keeping each other down than standing united, like when people give out about social welfare recipients like they caused the recession :rolleyes:

So yeah OP, you're in the wrong place to discuss this me thinks. To all those who say that protesting does nothing, if that were true wouldn't black people still be sitting in the back of the bus in the USA? Wouldn't the elderly have no medical card? Protesting does work, you just got to get off your ass, and Irish people seem to think they deserve to be threated like crap. I often think Irish people are a bit like a battered wife, murmuring "it's ok, it's my fault, I deserve it".

ebixa82

RoverJames wrote: »

I can't really understand the household charge protest folk, why didn't ye have a big protest when the USC came in?

I agree. I pay between 500-600e a month USC (roughly 6,500 per annum) 100e household charge is no big deal.

Sergeant

curlzy wrote: »

:rolleyes:
I think it might be from an inferiority complex from being oppressed for so long maybe? I really think Irish have zero unity and I'm not sure why but we seem to be more intent on keeping each other down than standing united, like when people give out about social welfare recipients like they caused the recession :rolleyes:

Excellent example of hyperbole. Maybe most people realise that as bad as things are they still live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, with state sponsored support structures that are as good as any in the world, and that mindless rioting would do nothing to improve the image of the country to tourists/investors/immigrants?
What do you propose we do to stand united? Stand united over what? What are the goals of these protests and riots?

skywalker

ebixa82 wrote: »

I agree. I pay between 500-600e a month USC (roughly 6,500 per annum) 100e household charge is no big deal.

Its a big deal because, the USC is an extraordinary tax, which will be forced out when the current crisis is finished.

A household charge, as it is proposed, will stand forever & a day if it introduced. Same with water charges & every other double taxation that is currently being introduced, to pay for services that were previously covered under the standard taxes people always paid.

mconigol

Because thankfully OP Irish people are mostly rational (despite having voted in FF repeatedly) and realise that thrashing your own country isn't going to achieve much.

They also had the opportunity to vote more right wing parties into government but chose not to, so the simple fact is Irish people do not want riots or to waste their time protesting and moaning. They want to work hard to get the country back on its feet again and are willing to make sacrifices to do that. Deal with it.

Greentopia

Sergeant wrote: »

Excellent example of hyperbole. Maybe most people realise that as bad as things are they still live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, with state sponsored support structures that are as good as any in the world, and that mindless rioting would do nothing to improve the image of the country to tourists/investors/immigrants?
What do you propose we do to stand united? Stand united over what? What are the goals of these protests and riots?

Where was it suggest in what you quoted by curlzy that mindless rioting was the answer? there is a difference between protest and rioting you do realise?...

And he/she is right-we don't show the slighest bit of unity or solidarity with each other when it matters. No wonder the Government are able to get away with so much austerity measures on us in the form of this raft of cuts, new taxes and charges, they know the vast majority will just grumble and moan about it down the pub (or on the internet) at most as we always do.

ebixa82

skywalker wrote: »

Its a big deal because, the USC is an extraordinary tax, which will be forced out when the current crisis is finished.

A household charge, as it is proposed, will stand forever & a day if it introduced. Same with water charges & every other double taxation that is currently being introduced, to pay for services that were previously covered under the standard taxes people always paid.

But the 100e is only the beginning. In a few years we'll be paying a couple of grand like the UK. It works for them.

Money has to come from somewhere.

curlzy

Sergeant wrote: »

Excellent example of hyperbole. Maybe most people realise that as bad as things are they still live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, with state sponsored support structures that are as good as any in the world, and that mindless rioting would do nothing to improve the image of the country to tourists/investors/immigrants?
What do you propose we do to stand united? Stand united over what? What are the goals of these protests and riots?

Oh yeah things are wonderful, why would we protest? :rolleyes: Read my post again, where did I advocate "mindless rioting"?

Doc Ruby

HalloweenJack wrote: »

FG and Labour aren't doing a great job but there are some signs of improvement and a lot of people seem to be forgetting, already, that they wouldn't have to be the bad guy if it weren't for FF making a right mess of the country.

FG and Labour only differed from FF during the bubble in that their proposals were to spend even more money more recklessly.

I trust none of these blaggards.

curlzy wrote:

To all those who say that protesting does nothing, if that were true wouldn't black people still be sitting in the back of the bus in the USA? Wouldn't the elderly have no medical card? Protesting does work, you just got to get off your ass, and Irish people seem to think they deserve to be threated like crap. I often think Irish people are a bit like a battered wife, murmuring "it's ok, it's my fault, I deserve it".

Which is why there's a union jack flying over all of the state buildings to this day... oh wait...

We're a bit like anonymous - not your private army.

token101

curlzy wrote: »

Oh yeah things are wonderful, why would we protest? :rolleyes: Read my post again, where did I advocate "mindless rioting"?

Well what's the justification for protesting then? We elected the governments who borrowed this money. They act on our behalf and are pursuing this path. If it was the will of the majority to tell Europe where to go Sinn Fein/ULA/Independents would be in power.

token101

Doc Ruby wrote: »

FG and Labour only differed from FF during the bubble in that their proposals were to spend even more money more recklessly.

I trust none of these blaggards.


Which is why there's a union jack flying over all of the state buildings to this day... oh wait...

Have you got an alternative? Sinn Fein? Do you really believe they would handle this any better? Or would they f*** it up even more? I'd go with the latter.

Greentopia

mconigol wrote: »

so the simple fact is Irish people do not want riots or to waste their time protesting and moaning. They want to work hard to get the country back on its feet again and are willing to make sacrifices to do that. Deal with it.

Speak for yourself, these are sacrifices I'm not willing to make, because I didn't have any part to play in causing the mess we're in now.

And it's not a zero sum game. I can protest AND work and continue to pay my fair contribution to society, as I don't feel it's a waste of time to protest.
Without protest we're doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. So we get the country back on it's feet only to see another boom and bust caused by the greed and incompetence of the elite happening all over again in another 15/20 years time because we didn't learn any lessons from now, and no-one was brought to account and made to pay for the ruin they've caused the country.

No thank's.

Doc Ruby

token101 wrote: »

Have you got an alternative? Sinn Fein? Do you really believe they would handle this any better? Or would they f*** it up even more? I'd go with the latter.

I badly wish there was some sort of decent alternative, but there isn't. Plenty of smart people in Ireland, its a shame they don't get into politics.

blackwhite

Greentopia wrote: »

Speak for yourself, these are sacrifices I'm not willing to make, because I didn't have any part to play in causing the mess we're in now.

No part?

Did you receive any of the Government's services during the boom years? Receive any form of welfare or payment from the state, go to school/university, use a hospital, drink water from a council supply, even use a public road perhaps? Did you complain about paying too much tax in the good times? Look for increased levels of any type of government service?

For most of the 00's, the State existed on a level of expenditure that was only paid for by unsustainable property-fueled tax incomes. The tax incomes have dried up, so now we need to balance our spending v taxes.
Even if we didn't put one more penny into the banks, there would be a shortfall of approx €20bn to be made up.

Simply put, if we decided this afternoon that we weren't goign to repay another cent of the banks' debts, we'd still need to continue with a combination of tax increases and spending cuts, just to bring out current spending to a sustainable level.

There are very, very few people in this country who can claim not to have contibuted in some way to the current mess, or benefited from the mistakes that caused it. When times were good everybody claimed that they were entitled to a share of the prosperity, even if they had done nothing to help bring it about. Now that things are bad, people can't try to claim they should be immune from the effects.

skywalker

skywalker wrote: »

Its a big deal because, the USC is an extraordinary tax, which will be forced out when the current crisis is finished. ..............

...... will it?

Red21

When stuff like; Internet
sky sports
leisure centre membership
en-suite bathrooms
granite top kitchens
Xbox
Iphone
plasma screen tv
sun holidays
getting pissed every weekend
200 guest weddings
extravagant communions etc, is gone I may cosider it.
Btw, I live in a working class area of town and earn far less than the national average wage.

ShadowHearth

A good riot would be handy, but unfortunately riots now are just an excuse for looting. They looted in UK, they looted in Greece too. So if there will be riot here, then everything will be looted, which will mean even more stress and losses for retailers and working people who are trying to have their head above **** sea.

St.Spodo

Things just haven't got bad enough for enough people. You can quote unemployment figures and national debt figures all you want, but people are more concerned with the football and the gargle on the weekend; the bird, the television, the internet etc on a daily basis.

Nothingbetter2d

irish citizen --> (__o__) <--- insert German bondholder's penis here

Wattle

I was going to say that we need some veterans of the Love Ulster parade riot to lead the way and show us how its done but they'd only divert us away from Dail Eireann and towards Footlocker.

humanji

What's the desired result from a riot or a protest? And what are the alternatives if the desired result are achieved? These are the awkward questions that always seem to be ignored by those demanding protests and/or riots. It seems much easier to insult your fellow Irish men and women.

ejmaztec

blackwhite wrote: »

No part?

Did you receive any of the Government's services during the boom years? Receive any form of welfare or payment from the state, go to school/university, use a hospital, drink water from a council supply, even use a public road perhaps? Did you complain about paying too much tax in the good times? Look for increased levels of any type of government service?

For most of the 00's, the State existed on a level of expenditure that was only paid for by unsustainable property-fueled tax incomes. The tax incomes have dried up, so now we need to balance our spending v taxes.
Even if we didn't put one more penny into the banks, there would be a shortfall of approx €20bn to be made up.

Simply put, if we decided this afternoon that we weren't goign to repay another cent of the banks' debts, we'd still need to continue with a combination of tax increases and spending cuts, just to bring out current spending to a sustainable level.

There are very, very few people in this country who can claim not to have contibuted in some way to the current mess, or benefited from the mistakes that caused it. When times were good everybody claimed that they were entitled to a share of the prosperity, even if they had done nothing to help bring it about. Now that things are bad, people can't try to claim they should be immune from the effects.

A party political broadcast on behalf of the Fianna Fail party.
:P

SEPT 23 1989

4 more years of taking 3billion per year out of the economy and the country will be ripe for civil disorder

We are not Greece today but see what its like a few years down the road

Ghandee

A riot wouldnt achieve much tbh, only folk with an otherwise clean record picking up a criminal one.


A BIG difference in a protest and a riot after all!

Sea Sharp

There hasn't been any riots yet because despite all the huffing and puffing and b1tching and moaning the fact of the matter is that the austerity carried out thus far hasn't really been all that bad (compared to the likes of Greece).

The dole hasn't been cut that much really and public sector workers have gone from being ridiculously overpaid to only being very well paid.

Having to cancel your Sky subscription and being forced to shop in Lidl isn't the same as having to watch your children go hungry.

If we have a budget where the dole gets cut to €120 p/week and 10% of public sector workers are laid off, then we'll see riots.

Dubit10

We have no backbone as a people.

Greentopia

blackwhite wrote: »

No part?

Did you receive any of the Government's services during the boom years? Receive any form of welfare or payment from the state, go to school/university, use a hospital, drink water from a council supply, even use a public road perhaps? Did you complain about paying too much tax in the good times? Look for increased levels of any type of government service?

So you're sugesting that if I benefited from any of those services (that I contributed to with my taxes) I therefore did have a part to play in the present mess? those are all services I got in return for paying my taxes. I see that as a just social contract.

Yes to most of those questions, what's your point?-no to complaining about paying too much tax btw-I believed actually we didn't pay enough in income taxes during the boom years and that's one of the reasons we have such poor services here.

I spent some years of the boom living in Sweden so I got used to excellent State and public services and the most generous welfare state in the world there paid for by very high taxes. I don't see it as a perfect system (it's the best there is I believe but that doesn't mean it's my idea of a perfect utopia...) but their standard of living is great, for ALL, and high taxes pay for that. That's what I'd like to see here but obviously given our present circumstances and our political and social culture here we haven't a hope in hell of ever attaining that so i can dream on...

I know there was a lot of waste here though in the public sector and unions have to take their share of the blame for high costs and hugh wage demands that made us uncompetative. Greed was endemic here.

blackwhite wrote: »

For most of the 00's, the State existed on a level of expenditure that was only paid for by unsustainable property-fueled tax incomes. The tax incomes have dried up, so now we need to balance our spending v taxes.
Even if we didn't put one more penny into the banks, there would be a shortfall of approx €20bn to be made up.

Yes, I know that. Tax the top tier more and bring those who pay little or no tax into the tax net, get rid of waste in Government (too many TD's for a start!) and the civil service and cut the top earners wages more, invest the money we have where it's most needed in education, indigenous industries, introducing universal healthcare, encourage more entrepeneurship in young people so they're more self-reliant...that's a few things anyway I'd like to see.

blackwhite wrote: »

Simply put, if we decided this afternoon that we weren't goign to repay another cent of the banks' debts, we'd still need to continue with a combination of tax increases and spending cuts, just to bring out current spending to a sustainable level.

Spending cuts are disproportionally effecting the poorest and most marginalised in society the hardest though. I think it's grossly inequitable that they're expected to pay for the gambling debts of rich speculators and bankers while many of the top earners are hardly affected in their standard of living.

blackwhite wrote: »

There are very, very few people in this country who can claim not to have contibuted in some way to the current mess, or benefited from the mistakes that caused it. When times were good everybody claimed that they were entitled to a share of the prosperity, even if they had done nothing to help bring it about. Now that things are bad, people can't try to claim they should be immune from the effects.

Those who caused it shouldn't be no, but again, I don't see how I, or indeed many of my friends contributed to the mess whatsoever. I/we didn't buy overinflated properties for monopoly money, I've been renting all my life-I've always lived simply and within my means, never been in debt (something my parents instilled in me), never rode the system for what all I could get like some, paid my taxes, and no, I didn't and don't have a sense of entitlement to a prosperous easy life.

I'm self-employed as a fibre artist- craft worker and my priorites are wildly different from many of my peers. I reject consumerist culture and all it's empty promises, I'm an environmentalist who's passionate about permaculture, sustainability and self-reliance. Not saying my way of life is any better than anybody elses, it's just what suits me and makes me happy. Are you getting the picture now? so no, we didn't "all party" as Lenihan suggested and I don't see why I should have to pay more from my already low income because of the greed, venality and irresponsibility of others. So I feel I have a right to say no, I won't pay and I have taken to the streets to protest and will again whenever the occasion presents itself.

big_heart_on

blackwhite wrote: »

When times were good everybody claimed that they were entitled to a share of the prosperity, even if they had done nothing to help bring it about. Now that things are bad, people can't try to claim they should be immune from the effects.

Everybody didnt. I didnt. I worked long hours, paid a wedge load of tax, saved my money, didnt borrow, asked for nothing, was fiscally responsible and yet I still have to listen to the party of failures mantra:

"We all partied...."

Well "we" didnt, though I do feel like I'm now cleaning up the mess the morning after the party.

Dubit10

big_heart_on wrote: »

Everybody didnt. I didnt. I worked long hours, paid a wedge load of tax, saved my money, didnt borrow, asked for nothing, was fiscally responsible and yet I still have to listen to the party of failures mantra:

"We all partied...."

Well "we" didnt, though I do feel like I'm now cleaning up the mess the morning after the party.

+1. So sick of hearing that BS line trotted out again and again. I rented (and still do) all through the supposed good times because i refused to be suckered in by badly built developments and silly prices for houses no bigger than studio apartments.

Not everybody enjoyed the celtic tiger years.

Sleepy

Because those of us with most to be angry about are too busy clinging onto our jobs or trying to find new ones.

Because the current government aren't responsible for the state the country's in: that blame lies with the previous government and those that voted for them.

token101

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I badly wish there was some sort of decent alternative, but there isn't. Plenty of smart people in Ireland, its a shame they don't get into politics.

Well would you? They get called crooks, thieves, gob****es, overpaid, and wasters daily. And that's before listening to these local ****wits complain about the most inane stupid **** imagineable and still complaining as you help them. Yeah sign me up :rolleyes:

rgmmg

Can we not pay the Eastern Europeans to do it for us? (joke!)

twinytwo

Domo230 wrote: »

Irish people don't protest for some reason. It's a strange cultural thing that we complain a lot but don't do anything about it, not one of our best qualities.

Why do we do this? Who know, it's like trying to explain why British people love queuing or why Eastern Europeans rarely smile. Every nation has it's quirks.

prob goes back to the last 800 years, where if u protested or stood up for yourself you were shot or sent to aus..

twinytwo

token101 wrote: »

Well would you? They get called crooks, thieves, gob****es, overpaid, and wasters daily. And that's before listening to these local ****wits complain about the most inane stupid **** imagineable and still complaining as you help them. Yeah sign me up :rolleyes:

plus if u join one of the main parties, you must comform and do what your told or u dont get anywhere... then if u try to form your own party or do something different you branded as a shiner or a brit or whatever by the main parties.

iBeast

Riots are no fun.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Someone could get hurt...its just not worth it. Best to stay at home and watch tv instead.

StephenHendry

Dubit10 wrote: »

+1. So sick of hearing that BS line trotted out again and again. I rented (and still do) all through the supposed good times because i refused to be suckered in by badly built developments and silly prices for houses no bigger than studio apartments.

Not everybody enjoyed the celtic tiger years.

not everyone did contribute to the mess, you're right. however if we did riot it would do us a lot of harm than good really, its bad enough that the FG/Labour crowd are struggling to attract business's , investment etc. our way. maybe there will be a tipping point soon enough, you know the saying " be careful what you wish for....

the next budget will be harsh, more cuts and next year a property and water charge. people's patience are being tested. its beginning to dawn on most people that FG/Labour are continuing on the same lies as the previous FF/Green government

Rhamiel

HalloweenJack wrote: »

And that's why he's a taxi driver.

What would happen if you got a mortgage and then you told the bank to **** off? This is, more or less, the situation for us. We needed the money, the EU/IMF helped us out but it's not unconditional. It was never going to be a gift, it was always a loan.

And it's not the EU or the IMF's fault. It's that of the previous Government and their rotten connections with the banks. FG and Labour aren't doing a great job but there are some signs of improvement and a lot of people seem to be forgetting, already, that they wouldn't have to be the bad guy if it weren't for FF making a right mess of the country.

Property bubble, bank guarantee, NAMA, EU/IMF bailout = all FF endeavours. The people copped on and got rid of them but someone still needs to clean up the mess. It'd be a thankless chore for whoever had to take it on.

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

A New York taxi driver told you this? They are such well known beacons of knowledge, we should do what he said immediately!!

.

First of all I've already stated that this "beacon of knowledge" of a taxi driver was in California not New York.

Secondly, the fact I have just stated above is just as pedantic as your delightfully insightful sarcasm indulging the obvious fact that he may not the be the pinnacle of authorities on the subject.

It was merely an anecdote to set the scene for my post and maybe also display the man on the streets attitude of a less cynical, self loathing culture

For further more qualified insight on how the US views our predicament I would strongly recommend googling a Vanity Fair article written on our economic woes a while back.

Thirdly, I am aware of the necessity for an EU/IMF bailout and the obligation to pay it back. I support it.
What I am disgusted by is the socialisation of private bonds on the Irish people
Do people even understand whats going on?