SF Aengus O'Snodaigh has claimed €50,000 in expenses for Printer Ink

Godge

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Would that be so bad though?

Ministers falsifying mileage claims put the money into their own pockets. In contrast, it sounds like you're accusing him of helping out campaigns like the anti-bin charges groups etc.

Is that really such a big deal?

If it was his money, no big deal.

Problem is, it was with my money.

I have no basis for this other than conjecture, but could what's happening here be that O'Snodaigh has been taking cartridges and paper and various other sundries and allowing them to be used by various other cash strapped sinn fein grass roots political activists, volunteers, community people etc?

Is it a case of "just drop your printing down to the constituency office and he'll print up any leaflets etc that you need as long as it's SF related? He would deny this I'm sure, but at the very least there should be an investigation into it, and a request to pay back the money if that's what he was at.

Why there are any rules in place at all about what you can and can't print seems ludicrous if any TD can just walk out of Leinster house with a toner under their arm as often as they like, and go and print in the privacy of their own constituency office.

JustinDee

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Would that be so bad though?

Ministers falsifying mileage claims put the money into their own pockets. In contrast, it sounds like you're accusing him of helping out campaigns like the anti-bin charges groups etc.

Is that really such a big deal?

Yes, it is a big deal actually.
Generalistic allegations don't really cut it when weighed up against those actually caught taking liberties/the p*ss.

The excuses made on his behalf are as trite and pathetic as the attempts at morally relativist justification.

happyman81

It's a sad reflection on this forum that this thread has received more posts than the referendum thread...

meglome

happyman81 wrote: »

It's a sad reflection on this forum that this thread has received more posts than the referendum thread...

A thread on Sinn Fein will do that every time. That said, there is no date for the referendum yet so it's still early days on that score.

Sully

Aengus must be delighted. Both the government and Fianna Fail have made announcements in the past two days to further push his story away from the media spotlight. Gwan the shinners!

jmayo

happyman81 wrote: »

It's a sad reflection on this forum that this thread has received more posts than the referendum thread...

Don't worry happyman there will be more than enough posts on there, some telling us we should give up our babies to our friends in Europe and some telling us all our future babies will be aborted or fighting in some grand European army.

I think this thread is getting so much air time since the moral guardians of frugality for politicans have been found to have been wasting thousands of taxpayers money on purchasing printer cartridges.

What really is revealing about this story is the way the other SF party TDs are dealing with the issue.
They have resorted to the ff playbook.
They have even claimed ignorance, blamed the system and come up with some excuses that don't hold much water when held up to examination.

I think it is all very revealing, especially to some of their supporters who actually believed they were somehow different. :rolleyes:

Godge

happyman81 wrote: »

It's a sad reflection on this forum that this thread has received more posts than the referendum thread...

Yes, it is amazing, it has actually surprised me how many SF-leaning posters read and sound like FF-leaning posters from the CJH, Bertie, Ray Burke, Ivor the Engine era.

Bannasidhe

Godge wrote: »

Yes, it is amazing, it has actually surprised me how many SF-leaning posters read and sound like FF-leaning posters from the CJH, Bertie, Ray Burke, Ivor the Engine era.

I'm afraid it didn't surprise me in the least.

raymon

Callelyesque , the whole episode

john reilly

raymon wrote: »

Callelyesque , the whole episode

in english what does this mean. considering the goverment are throwing billions at the ecb to help german and french banks its amazing how many f,g supporters are so concerned about sinn fein legally claiming 50,000 worth of ink.

ednwireland

happyman81 wrote: »

It's a sad reflection on this forum that this thread has received more posts than the referendum thread...

you dont think this sort of behaviour goes to the heart of whats wrong with politics in this country

meglome

john reilly wrote: »

i considering the goverment are throwing billions at the ecb to help german and french banks

I assume you have more than just your opinion to back this up?

john reilly wrote: »

considering the goverment are throwing billions at the ecb to help german and french banks its amazing how many f,g supporters are so concerned about sinn fein legally claiming 50,000 worth of ink.

But let's assume that is true for a sec.... you're saying as long as something bigger is happening it makes spending 50k on toner/ink okay?

trishasaffron

murphaph wrote: »

Eh, come again?



To be honest I don't like that SF should be using my taxes to make up a shortfall in donations to their party! Perhaps they should lobby towards a limit or ban on this propoganda junk mail, rather than entering into an arms race with FG paid for out of my taxes!

Jaysus - would he not see that leaflets without photos of his mug might be more appealing to voters?

raymon

john reilly wrote: »

in english what does this mean. considering the goverment are throwing billions at the ecb to help german and french banks its amazing how many f,g supporters are so concerned about sinn fein legally claiming 50,000 worth of ink.

Callelyesque - to take something that you are not morally entitled to, while not expressly breaking any law.

Cork boy 55

dolallyoh wrote: »

Disgraceful, who oversees the supplies to the Dail. They should be demoted.

Exactly but nothing will happen there

ayeboy wrote: »

I didnt say sack him, I said he desrves the sack but thats what's wrong with the country when those in power can take the piss in this manner with no consequences.

But what's a hundred times worse is peoples' attitudes (like yours)...ah sure the next man will only be worse!!

Why has he not been sacked/resigned and Lowry and .. and ...

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

kippy

The amount of people sticking up for what this guy did saddens me, and saddens me a lot.

It is rather ironic that these people want to refocus the debate on the bailout, fianna fail, the referendum.

The kind of thing that AOS did was commonplace during the "good times" and the attitude towards it seems to have lead us to where we are today.
Have we learned nothing?

The whole thing seems to have been buried at this stage anyway, with the referendum, Eamon O Cuiv and a few other things having overtaken it in the news.
This is what usually happens with issues such as this and it helped along by those, like those on this post, who either see nothing wrong with it, or deem it to be a minor indescretion in the whole scheme of things.

walshb

Has any media outlet latched onto the point about O'Snodaigh's father running a printing company?

murphaph

john reilly wrote: »

in english what does this mean. considering the goverment are throwing billions at the ecb to help german and french banks its amazing how many f,g supporters are so concerned about sinn fein legally claiming 50,000 worth of ink.

Did we really get to 15 pages before someone mentioned the banks? :eek:

I imagine it is not just FG supporters, rather anyone who cares a damn about Ireland and her future, that think a TD "using" 50 grand's worth of toner is something to be concerned about. If he was a FG TD would you be so forgiving? I imagine not.

Callelyesque refers to Ivor Callely, obviously.

whippet

walshb wrote: »

Has any media outlet latched onto the point about O'Snodaigh's father running a printing company?

to be fair i'd say that has no impact on anything .. for one a laser toners would be of no use to a printing company ......

My main problem is the more than slight possibility that these toners paid for by the taxpayer were probably used to distribute political views at the immeasurable number of protests / marches and general 'No' type gatherings that SF seem to attend.

Also, the possibility that they were used to print propaganda for some of AO'S know associated and canvassers

Election Posters in boot

some other of his mates

It is beyond me how anyone can defend this sort of a man or even worse vote for him

lugha

jmayo wrote: »

I think it is all very revealing, especially to some of their supporters who actually believed they were somehow different. :rolleyes:

It is and it isn’t. The notion that some new or rising political party will somehow deliver on the yearnings we have (or think we have!) for public representatives that conduct their business with the utmost integrity is a familiar one.

There was this feel about the Progressive Democrats when the first launched ,and across the political spectrum there was a similar unrealistic, and as it turns out unwarranted, expectation from the Spring tide 20 years ago. And even from the Greens before they got their turn on the potty.

Maybe €50K is good value if it puts a stop to this delusion that some have about SF

Thoie

I'm curious about this. I'm in his constituency, and have only seen about 3 leaflets from him in the last 6 years, all around election/referendum time.

So whatever he was printing it obviously didn't go to all his constituents. Not that I'm bemoaning the lack of junk mail, but the numbers don't add up.

K-9

kippy wrote: »

The amount of people sticking up for what this guy did saddens me, and saddens me a lot.

It is rather ironic that these people want to refocus the debate on the bailout, fianna fail, the referendum.

The kind of thing that AOS did was commonplace during the "good times" and the attitude towards it seems to have lead us to where we are today.
Have we learned nothing?

The whole thing seems to have been buried at this stage anyway, with the referendum, Eamon O Cuiv and a few other things having overtaken it in the news.
This is what usually happens with issues such as this and it helped along by those, like those on this post, who either see nothing wrong with it, or deem it to be a minor indescretion in the whole scheme of things.

It would be interesting to see the reaction when the Callely stuff started coming out to this story. Also Norris and the Presidential election and "irregularities" on sickness payments then.

Somebody posted about the Westminster expenses earlier, SF seem to have a history of suspect expense claiming. The stock answer then seemed to be "well its only Westminster", the answer this time broadly "they were all at it".

SF and indeed the SWP/ULA often proudly go on about the industrial wage etc. to make them sound different. I can't understand the SF response in that context, apparently when it comes to expenses, forget that part, this is different.

Stripey Cat

walshb wrote: »

Has any media outlet latched onto the point about O'Snodaigh's father running a printing company?

No, because it's not true.

(Although actually, since it's SF, then being untrue won't stop them publishing it, so we might expect to see it in the Indo or the Herald soon.)

yourpics

Stripey Cat wrote: »

No, because it's not true.

(Although actually, since it's SF, then being untrue won't stop them publishing it, so we might expect to see it in the Indo or the Herald soon.)

No doubt the Sindo will have a special full colour pull-out supplement on Inkgate.

Liam Byrne

Stripey Cat wrote: »

walshb wrote: »

Has any media outlet latched onto the point about O'Snodaigh's father running a printing company?

No, because it's not true.

(Although actually, since it's SF, then being untrue won't stop them publishing it, so we might expect to see it in the Indo or the Herald soon.)

Something being untrue didn't seem to stop MMcG opening his mouth during the election debate, so that's hardly suddenly high on your criteria of requirements, is it ?

yourpics

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Something being untrue didn't seem to stop MMcG opening his mouth during the election debate, so that's hardly suddenly high on your criteria of requirements, is it ?

The fact remains that Sean Gallagher was is a FF bagman.

People had not researched this candidate enough before deciding to vote for him, and let's be honest, this badly needed to be highlighted.

Liam Byrne

yourpics wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Something being untrue didn't seem to stop MMcG opening his mouth during the election debate, so that's hardly suddenly high on your criteria of requirements, is it ?

The fact remains that Sean Gallagher was is a FF bagman.

People had not researched this candidate enough before deciding to vote for him, and let's be honest, this badly needed to be highlighted.

There's no point dragging this thread off-topic with a full-blown debate, but the "let's be honest" is as ironic as they come.

Anyone objecting to dishonesty should also object to MMcG, the guy SF wanted as our president.....we either want honesty or we don't - that shouldn't change as and when suits our personal agenda.

I'm glad SG didn't win, but I don't condone MMcG lying to achieve it.

Pointing fingers at others while excusing their own indiscretions is part of SF's problem, and has been ever since they started objecting to some murders and not others.

And now they and their supporters are doing it re dodgy expenses. O'S is as bad as Callely; they need to face that fact or be labelled once again as double-standards hypocrites - it's their choice.

K-9

yourpics wrote: »

The fact remains that Sean Gallagher was is a FF bagman.

People had not researched this candidate enough before deciding to vote for him, and let's be honest, this badly needed to be highlighted.

I thought the Presidential election was over and Gallagher finished as a political figure as are FF, arguably.

But here we are, on a thread about SF and what seems expenses manipulation, talking about events from 6 months ago.

What is your opinion on the expenses claim?

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

Per my note pages ago, just as this thread is not about RTE, it is also not about Europe or the bailout. It is about expenses. There are plenty of threads about these topics in other sections of this forum.

Not every thread in Politics needs to include the words "banks" or "bailout", and the constant attempts to derail threads and/or push individual agendas by dragging these topics into every conversation are getting really, really tiresome.

Off-topic posts infracted and deleted, and responses deleted.

yourpics

K-9 wrote: »

I thought the Presidential election was over and Gallagher finished as a political figure as are FF, arguably.

But here we are, on a thread about SF and what seems expenses manipulation, talking about events from 6 months ago.

What is your opinion on the expenses claim?

Another poster brought up the SG issue.

My opinion is that AÓS didn't do anything wrong as such, but he did use the resources excessively.

I would welcome a comprehensive report on how exactly the ink/toner was used. This would allow a better evaluation of the situation.

Janedoe10

I am getting really tired of how when the FF gurus were bleeding us dry and they were the high moral ground and cupla focal jerry Adams and the opposition were like pigs in shi** highlighting their carry on ,, yet AOS was secretly raiding the stationary cupboards and draining all the cartridges . This morning on Newstalk he was almost blaming the system and dail for supplying the printers to him..Jesus how can they bleed on about taking average industrial wage when this is what's going on .. Let me say it we are fools for listening to the **** ... It's like a fix .... They can't stop themselves what's worse he was voted in because he was to fix solve the mess .. Keep them away from the tuber ware cupboard

Hannibal

Janedoe10 wrote: »

I am getting really tired of how when the FF gurus were bleeding us dry and they were the high moral ground and cupla focal jerry Adams and the opposition were like pigs in shi** highlighting their carry on ,, yet AOS was secretly raiding the stationary cupboards and draining all the cartridges . This morning on Newstalk he was almost blaming the system and dail for supplying the printers to him..Jesus how can they bleed on about taking average industrial wage when this is what's going on .. Let me say it we are fools for listening to the **** ... It's like a fix .... They can't stop themselves what's worse he was voted in because he was to fix solve the mess .. Keep them away from the tuber ware cupboard

a) it's Gerry Adams as in Gerard rather than Jerry as in Jeremiah
b) is there something wrong with using cúpla focal within Dáil Éireann? it is our national language afterall
c) AOS wasn't secretly raiding anything, if he was this would never have emerged as it is all documented who took what. He went way overboard on leaflets in 2007 and 2008 there's no doubt about that but the bigger question is how it took 4 and 5 years for this to emerge and all only a day after SF receive extremely positive news in an opinion poll. AOS done nothing illegal and it's important to focus on that.

JustinDee

The attempts to belittle what this fella are hilarious. He has fleeced for what he can. His position as a TD is untenable as he has been caught red-handed.

tfitzgerald

Martin McGuiness is furious with aodan o snodaigh it seems that's not what he meant we he said get more cartridges for us:)

lugha

Dotsey wrote: »

AOS done nothing illegal and it's important to focus on that.

Go through all the rogues in FF (and the odd one in FG) and you will find that a lot of what the did was also not illegal.

Can you cite a list of convictions for these fellows where they have been found to have acted illegally?

We have higher ambitions (though perhaps we shouldn't have!) than that our public representatives should just refrain from breaking the law.

Pompey Magnus

lugha wrote: »

Go through all the rogues in FF (and the odd one in FG) and you will find that a lot of what the did was also not illegal.

Can you cite a list of convictions for these fellows where they have been found to have acted illegally?

We have higher ambitions (though perhaps we shouldn't have!) than that our public representatives should just refrain from breaking the law.

That is absolutely true, but the talk of fraud, personal financial gain and criminal behaviour is just ridiculous, as far as I am concerned the only thing that can he can be accused of is an incredible level of stupidity and hypocrisy which is a common trait in Leinster House and I am sure he will be punished in the next election if he lasts that long.

If he can be shown that he was financially benefiting from the cartridges or using them for unauthorised purposes then it becomes a whole new ball game but I have yet to see that proof.

trishasaffron

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

If he can be shown that he was financially benefiting from the cartridges or using them for unauthorised purposes then it becomes a whole new ball game but I have yet to see that proof.

Well if its a purely legitimate use why doesn't he explain? The guff about local leafleting is just ridiculous. I reserve my right to regard it as ridiculous and to feel that we're being treated as a fools. Personally anyone who abuses their privileges is in practice "stealing" from me a taxpayer - whether it's "legal" or not.

And arguments about the scale of the carry on are just childish - like the kid who says "yeah but I only stole 2 sweeties - me brother stole a whole bag".

tfitzgerald

I don't think it matters what party they are from they all claim massive expenses . They are all crooks

Pompey Magnus

trishasaffron wrote: »

Well if its a purely legitimate use why doesn't he explain? The guff about local leafleting is just ridiculous.

You just answered your own question. He did explain, you just decided not to believe him.

And arguments about the scale of the carry on are just childish - like the kid who says "yeah but I only stole 2 sweeties - me brother stole a whole bag".

Well at least you are consistent, unlike many. I have heard people condemn O' Snodaigh's spending whilst defending James Reilly wasting €624 on delux coffee machines for his offices because it was "only" €624.

Godge

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

You just answered your own question. He did explain, you just decided not to believe him.



.

I didn't believe Haughey's explanations, I didn't believe Ray Burke's explanations, I didn't believe Michael Lowry's explanations, I don't believe O'Snodaigh's explanations. He is keeping good company.

The evidence is as follows:

He took €50,000 worth of cartridges and his explanation is that he used it to print constituency leaflets.

People in his constituency have no recollection of leaflets from him.
Any leaflets that have been seen (as per earlier in this thread) could not be printed with Dell cartridges.
The amount of toner cartridges would have worn out his constituency printers, where are the invoices for the new ones?
The amount of cartridges would have printed millions of leaflets, enough for a leaflet drop to every constituent every two weeks. Where are the leaflets?
Where did he get the container load of paper needed?
Did he use all the cartridges himself or give them to others?
Are they stockpiled in his office?


Now I did not come down in the last shower, Only someone who is deluded or insane could choose to believe his current explanation. Would someone in there not just get him to tell the truth and give a credible explanation for what happened. It might be that a credible explanation is out there and will be accepted by most but the current attempt to pretend that it was all about leaflet drops makes Sinn Fein look like FF-lite.

jmayo

K-9 wrote: »

It would be interesting to see the reaction when the Callely stuff started coming out to this story. Also Norris and the Presidential election and "irregularities" on sickness payments then.

Somebody posted about the Westminster expenses earlier, SF seem to have a history of suspect expense claiming. The stock answer then seemed to be "well its only Westminster", the answer this time broadly "they were all at it".

Ehh that was me.
What shocked me at the time that revelation came out was the fact that their MPs had never sat in Westminster yet they claimed expenses for two flats in London.
It also drew a few raises eyebrows from the unionists, although it appears the Robinsons were also on the gravy train over there.

Dotsey wrote: »

a) it's Gerry Adams as in Gerard rather than Jerry as in Jeremiah

As in Jerry McCabe slaughtered by jeremiah sheehy and co.

Dotsey wrote: »

b) is there something wrong with using cúpla focal within Dáil Éireann? it is our national language afterall

c) AOS wasn't secretly raiding anything, if he was this would never have emerged as it is all documented who took what. He went way overboard on leaflets in 2007 and 2008 there's no doubt about that but the bigger question is how it took 4 and 5 years for this to emerge and all only a day after SF receive extremely positive news in an opinion poll. AOS done nothing illegal and it's important to focus on that.

You sound just like all the ffers who claimed bertie did nothing wrong when he claimed massive amounts for makeup, that bev flynn did nothing wrong when she claimed an independent TDs allowance, when o'donoghue claimed for expensive chauffeur rides around Heathrow, harney claimed for haridos in Florida or used the jet for trips for her friends to Vegas.

The current crowd in power appears to have not learnt much either, since we have Quinn with some questionable travel expenses.

Your sole point there is the timing of this and sounds like a shoot the messenger rather than explain what the fook he was doing ordering at our expense so many toner/ink cartridges. :rolleyes:

BTW the leaflet excuse doesn't cut it, people would not be printing leaflets on laser or inkjets.
Oh and some os his constituents have never received any leaflets from him to back up his statement.

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I don't think it matters what party they are from they all claim massive expenses . They are all crooks

This type of sh** really angers me.
"They are all the same" is a stock answer used as a get out of jail free card to allow the worse offenders to slide by.

I have no problem with TDs getting expenses, so long as they are vouched and not pulling the p***.
And there are probably a fair few TDs that actually don't pull the p***.
Of course the ones that do then get all of them a bad reputation.

The dodgy ones don't care, because if they can use that excuse then it obsolves them of some of the blame and guilt.

By lumping everyone in with the callelys, the aherns, the o'snodaighs, you have done the decent or semi decent ones a diservice.

Even worse you have given the real dodgy ones a lifeline.

Bannasidhe

Godge wrote: »

I didn't believe Haughey's explanations, I didn't believe Ray Burke's explanations, I didn't believe Michael Lowry's explanations, I don't believe O'Snodaigh's explanations. He is keeping good company.

The evidence is as follows:

He took €50,000 worth of cartridges and his explanation is that he used it to print constituency leaflets.

People in his constituency have no recollection of leaflets from him.
Any leaflets that have been seen (as per earlier in this thread) could not be printed with Dell cartridges.
The amount of toner cartridges would have worn out his constituency printers, where are the invoices for the new ones?
The amount of cartridges would have printed millions of leaflets, enough for a leaflet drop to every constituent every two weeks. Where are the leaflets?
Where did he get the container load of paper needed?
Did he use all the cartridges himself or give them to others?
Are they stockpiled in his office?


Now I did not come down in the last shower, Only someone who is deluded or insane could choose to believe his current explanation. Would someone in there not just get him to tell the truth and give a credible explanation for what happened. It might be that a credible explanation is out there and will be accepted by most but the current attempt to pretend that it was all about leaflet drops makes Sinn Fein look like FF-lite.

Godge articulates it perfectly.

AOS made excuses - even a cursory examination of which showed they just don't explain how he could have used the ink in the way he claims to have used the ink.

SF's portrayal of themselves as being anti-snout in the trough has now been brought firmly under the spotlight - they managed to (pardon the pun) dodge the bullet when their expenses claims were published but this grubby pilfering and their FFesque 'defence' of 'working the system' and 'entitlements' and 'didn't realise the cost' etc etc indicates that far from being different to the other main political parties - SF are exactly the same when it comes to helping themselves to whatever is available at the taxpayers expense.

They could have said -'Oh, we didn't realise it cost so much so as a gesture of good faith we, the party of the working people, will reimburse the State and taxpayer.'
That would have been a PR coup, stopped much of the criticism in it's tracks and earned the a lot of kudos points with an electorate fed up of wastage and grasping public representatives. They would have gotten 50 k worth of invaluable publicity (in addition to the use of all that ink) and a free ride on the high horse of seen to be accountable. Instead - they trotted out the same old tired excuses we have heard so many times before.

rodento

I ask again, does his printer take those cartridges, should be very simple to check

Pandora2

rodento wrote: »

I ask again, does his printer take those cartridges, should be very simple to check

He would have been provided with the printers by the Oireachtas as part of his office suite...so yes he has compatible printers either in the Leinster House Office or in the Constituency (3) 1 for himself, 1 for his Parliamentary Asst and 1 for his secretary - it is up to him where he locates these printers.

rodento

Get a total usage read out from the printer if thats the case;)

kippy

As a matter of interest - do people think this has already disappeared from the media or is it still being spoken about?

kippy

kippy wrote: »

As a matter of interest - do people think this has already disappeared from the media or is it still being spoken about?

Political coverage today is all about the O'Cuiv/Martin rift within FF and the Euro Fiscal treaty referendum. If Sinn Fein knows what's good for it it will shut it's yap and keep a low profile for a few days, and this will all be ancient history unless some subsequent freedom of information request by the journalist investigating it unearths something really juicy.

walshb

Godge wrote: »

I didn't believe Haughey's explanations, I didn't believe Ray Burke's explanations, I didn't believe Michael Lowry's explanations, I don't believe O'Snodaigh's explanations. He is keeping good company.

The evidence is as follows:

He took €50,000 worth of cartridges and his explanation is that he used it to print constituency leaflets.

People in his constituency have no recollection of leaflets from him.
Any leaflets that have been seen (as per earlier in this thread) could not be printed with Dell cartridges.
The amount of toner cartridges would have worn out his constituency printers, where are the invoices for the new ones?
The amount of cartridges would have printed millions of leaflets, enough for a leaflet drop to every constituent every two weeks. Where are the leaflets?
Where did he get the container load of paper needed?
Did he use all the cartridges himself or give them to others?
Are they stockpiled in his office?


Now I did not come down in the last shower, Only someone who is deluded or insane could choose to believe his current explanation. Would someone in there not just get him to tell the truth and give a credible explanation for what happened. It might be that a credible explanation is out there and will be accepted by most but the current attempt to pretend that it was all about leaflet drops makes Sinn Fein look like FF-lite.

All that common sense you posted means nothing to these politicians. They will ride it, defend it, weasel out, argue, moan and whinge their way to this saga being forgotten and dropped.

meglome

walshb wrote: »

All that common sense you posted means nothing to these politicians. They will ride it, defend it, weasel out, argue, moan and whinge their way to this saga being forgotten and dropped.

Perhaps it would be a good idea for everyone in this thread to remember this when it comes round to election time. That is the only way they will learn.