Sky TV installation in apartment complex

djimi

I suspect I already know the answer to this but Im going to ask anyway...!

I live in an apartment complex which is controlled by a management company. Right now the only option I have for TV is UPC, who I am quite frankly getting sick of, and I would like to change to Sky. Problem is that like most apartment complexes mine does not allow dishes to be put up. My question is has anyone ever successfully fought a management company over this?

We dont have a shared Sky dish and it doesnt look likely that we will any time soon.

markpb

djimi wrote: »

We dont have a shared Sky dish and it doesnt look likely that we will any time soon.

Talk to the directors of your management company and ask them to talk to Sky about installing a communal dish - they'll do it free of charge if the directors agree.

djimi

Yeah Ive been looking into it since and an email is being sent to the management committee asking them to discuss a communal dish. They seemed more open to the suggestion that I had expected so fingers crossed!

I think I had the process confused in my head; I always thoght it was the management company that outlawed dishes, not the residents management committee. I suppose if the residents dont want them then there isnt much I can do about it...

markpb

djimi wrote: »

I think I had the process confused in my head; I always thoght it was the management company that outlawed dishes, not the residents management committee. I suppose if the residents dont want them then there isnt much I can do about it...

I think you're a little confused (like most people).

The management company is made up of all the owners plus a few directors. The directors are either the developer or some of the owners and they run the company. If there's a residents committee, it has no legal standing, no ability to make decisions, no ability to enforce the lease agreement - it's just a bunch of people talking among themselves.

You (as an owner) can't install a dish because you don't own the external walls of your apartment, just the inside. The directors can decide to install a dish if they want because they represent the company and the company owns the walls.

Clear as mud?

djimi

Yeah I think I got it now alright! I knew the distinction; its the terminology I think I get confused with.

earlyevening

In my apartment building, we arranged for a single dish on the roof so anybody who wanted sky could get it.

athtrasna

djimi wrote: »

I live in an apartment complex

Do you live in the complex or own in the complex? It always amazes me that the biggest problem with unauthorised dishes in our development are tenants. Surely it's clear from the outset that there are no dishes. If you're an owner you would have some rights to request a communal dish be erected but it would require approval from the directors. Bear in mind that planning permission for many developments prohibits dishes from being erected.

Communal dishes work for some developments and not for others. We would need 12 in ours for 7 blocks. There is also the issue that a Sky dish would not provide the foreign channels that some tenants want. Having seen neighbouring developments go from no dishes at all to communal dishes PLUS a flock of Lidl/Aldi specials because once tenants saw one dish they decided they could put their own up..I am glad our AGMs have repeatedly rejected requests for dishes.

djimi

athtrasna wrote: »

Do you live in the complex or own in the complex? It always amazes me that the biggest problem with unauthorised dishes in our development are tenants. Surely it's clear from the outset that there are no dishes. If you're an owner you would have some rights to request a communal dish be erected but it would require approval from the directors. Bear in mind that planning permission for many developments prohibits dishes from being erected.

Communal dishes work for some developments and not for others. We would need 12 in ours for 7 blocks. There is also the issue that a Sky dish would not provide the foreign channels that some tenants want. Having seen neighbouring developments go from no dishes at all to communal dishes PLUS a flock of Lidl/Aldi specials because once tenants saw one dish they decided they could put their own up..I am glad our AGMs have repeatedly rejected requests for dishes.

I rent my apartment, but I do not accept that its a clear no to satellite dishes. I resent the fact that I am being forced to purchase my TV service from a company whos service I do not like (and if I want a decent TV service then I currently only have one option) all because some of the residents object to a dish being put up. Im not going to put up an unauthorized dish and Im not suggesting that every apartment should be allowed their own dish (personally I dont see the problem but apparently some people do) but I do not see why management companies cannot approach the idea of a communal dish with an open mind, especially smaller complexes where only one dish is required.

There is nothing to say that the current rules about dishes cannot still be enforced to prevent a dish on every balcony, but I think it is only right to give people a choice when it comes to things like their TV service, and a communal dish does just that. It doesnt cost anything to have installed as far as I know and one dish is hardly going to make the place look like a ghetto (anyone who thinks differently really needs to get a grip on reality).

athtrasna

djimi wrote: »

I rent my apartment, but I do not accept that its a clear no to satellite dishes.

If you rent you have no rights to even request a dish via the Management Agent. Any communication would have to be through your landlord.

Why did you not choose an apartment in a development that does permit dishes? As a tenant you are mobile, if you don't like the development rules then why stay? Nobody is forcing you to use UPC because nobody forced you to move there.

Only members of the Management Company have a say in what happens in the development and any alterations to the facade or structure such as erection of dishes as they are the owners of the buildings.

Like I said, it's in the planning permission for most modern developments that no dishes are erected.

peter_dublin

djimi wrote: »

I rent my apartment, but I do not accept that its a clear no to satellite dishes. I resent the fact that I am being forced to purchase my TV service from a company whos service I do not like (and if I want a decent TV service then I currently only have one option) all because some of the residents object to a dish being put up. Im not going to put up an unauthorized dish and Im not suggesting that every apartment should be allowed their own dish (personally I dont see the problem but apparently some people do) but I do not see why management companies cannot approach the idea of a communal dish with an open mind, especially smaller complexes where only one dish is required.

There is nothing to say that the current rules about dishes cannot still be enforced to prevent a dish on every balcony, but I think it is only right to give people a choice when it comes to things like their TV service, and a communal dish does just that. It doesnt cost anything to have installed as far as I know and one dish is hardly going to make the place look like a ghetto (anyone who thinks differently really needs to get a grip on reality).

No but the cabling ran all over the building may, and again you think of this from an Irish only solution, what about foreign nationals as another person pointed out re LIDL/ALDI dishes, now your not taking about a Sky mini dish, you need at least a 1.1 pref 1.2 meter dish for satellite tv. How would that look on the wall of a small redbrick building with only four units such as where I own and rent. Sky only wire externally. Hardly visually appealing. If you resent such issues I would suggest you rent else were. I find it hard to believe you didn't know no dishes were allowed given the lack of them on the building plus it being most likely in your lease.

In our case we put up a Sky mini dish on each building (28E, 19E) , wired interally to each unit. No easy or cheap and sky were not interested doing it this way so it was not free. We also placed a 1.1m dish in an hidden area for foreign nationals to share. Guess what no one was interested in paying the approved contractor to come out and connect them to the 1.1m dish and align it if necessary. Tenents are not allowed at it themselves to avoid conflicts and damage to the multiple lnb setup on it and as we self manage they have to use an approved satellite installer of our choice. What they do want it their cake and eat it, i.e. put up their dish and take it with them post lease.

Tenents are a lot less carefull removing their dishes than they are putting them up. We had over 2000 euro of damage repaired in our post dish ban to communial dish transitional period. 6 sets of window hinges, 5 air bricks, multiple raw plugs left in the wall to be removed and pointing corrected and the removed and replacement of multiple blown out red bricks. I could go on.

The work that goes into "properly" maintaining a development to a standard is not relised by most especially tenents. Satellites are a pest and to be controlled. Otherwise we would need dishes for Ireland, Eteria, Poland and Slovenia based on current residence of the units.

Now don't get me started on the tenents who currently think it is okay to put a clothes horse in the vistor spaces after we rejected their request for a clothes line in the communal garden :-)

Paulw

djimi wrote: »

I think it is only right to give people a choice when it comes to things like their TV service, and a communal dish does just that. It doesnt cost anything to have installed as far as I know and one dish is hardly going to make the place look like a ghetto (anyone who thinks differently really needs to get a grip on reality).

You have a choice. Saorview doesn't require an external dish/aerial.

There is a cost for a dish. But, in many cases, Sky will discount this against the possible connections.

Also, a dish isn't just a dish. There is also a lot of cable that needs to be run to connect units.

Our development enforces the "no dish" policy and we regularly remove dishes. 99% of those are tenants. They soon learn that they have to abide by the development rules.

2 years ago we got in Sky (shared dish). We have 3 dishes shared between 112 units (due to different blocks, so 3 were optimal). We still get tenants putting up their own dishes, which are quickly removed.

The management company (made up of all the unit owners) determine the policies that are enforced by the management agent. Tenants have no say at all, but must direct any issues they have to their landlord (member of the management company).

djimi

athtrasna wrote: »

If you rent you have no rights to even request a dish via the Management Agent. Any communication would have to be through your landlord.

Why did you not choose an apartment in a development that does permit dishes? As a tenant you are mobile, if you don't like the development rules then why stay? Nobody is forcing you to use UPC because nobody forced you to move there.

Only members of the Management Company have a say in what happens in the development and any alterations to the facade or structure such as erection of dishes as they are the owners of the buildings.

Like I said, it's in the planning permission for most modern developments that no dishes are erected.

I am going through the proper channels (in this case the letting agent as my landlord lives abroad) but I do not accept that I have no rights to at least make a request about the property I live in. If they want to tell me no then thats fair enough but I will at least ask.

I chose this apartment because believe it or not a TV service is not a defining factor in choosing where I live! Very few apartment buildings in my area allow dishes, and the ones that do tend to be the ones that have no management and noone to tell the occupants otherwise.

From speaking with Sky and my letting agent it seems that plenty of apartment complexes are going with communal dishes as they offer occupants a choice without giving them a reason to go with their own dish stuck off their balcony. All I intend to do is ask the question to see if our management company will at least consider it! If planning permission is an issue then so be it.

djimi

Paul and Peter - at no point have I suggested allowing tenants put up their own dishes; I am simply asking what options have I got with regards a communal dish. It seems that I have none if the management company do not want it.

My problem is primarily with being forced into only having one option for pay TV. I take the arguement that a communal Sky dish only services the Irish market, but at least its another option that doesnt force people to only have the option of UPC if they want a TV service beyond the basic Irish channels.

athtrasna

djimi wrote: »

I am going through the proper channels (in this case the letting agent as my landlord lives abroad) but I do not accept that I have no rights to at least make a request about the property I live in.

I live in a managed development. For that privilege I have a significant mortgage and pay annual management fees. This gives me a right to have a say in the appearance of the development and to support the ban on dishes (which is very specific in my purchase documentation). It also gives me a share in ownership of the buildings and I don't want Sky or anyone else for that matter drilling holes in the walls or draping external cables down them.

As a tenant - you rent a property, when you're done with it you move on, you make no financial contribution to the development. Sorry to disagree but you have no right to a say in decisions like this.

Ritchi

athtrasna wrote: »

I live in a managed development. For that privilege I have a significant mortgage and pay annual management fees. This gives me a right to have a say in the appearance of the development and to support the ban on dishes (which is very specific in my purchase documentation). It also gives me a share in ownership of the buildings and I don't want Sky or anyone else for that matter drilling holes in the walls or draping external cables down them.

As a tenant - you rent a property, when you're done with it you move on, you make no financial contribution to the development. Sorry to disagree but you have no right to a say in decisions like this.

He said that he has a right to request it. Which I'm sure he does. You can request whatever you want, you don't have to be listened to though.

djimi

athtrasna wrote: »

I live in a managed development. For that privilege I have a significant mortgage and pay annual management fees. This gives me a right to have a say in the appearance of the development and to support the ban on dishes (which is very specific in my purchase documentation). It also gives me a share in ownership of the buildings and I don't want Sky or anyone else for that matter drilling holes in the walls or draping external cables down them.

As a tenant - you rent a property, when you're done with it you move on, you make no financial contribution to the development. Sorry to disagree but you have no right to a say in decisions like this.

Im not looking for a say in the decision; Im only looking to make a request to have it discussed. Reasonable people usually discuss matters, especially when it leads to a more comfortable living environment for all occupants (owners or tenants).

peter_dublin

djimi wrote: »

Im not looking for a say in the decision; Im only looking to make a request to have it discussed. Reasonable people usually discuss matters, especially when it leads to a more comfortable living environment for all occupants (owners or tenants).

Yes but you still missing the point, You don't have the right to request anything of the management company or the agent. You can request what you want from the Letting Agent who is acting in place for your absent landlord but the only person who has any right to request anything of the management company is the landlord or his proxy.

The landlord should not be able to request the agent do anything as they will take instructions from the MGT Co / its directors. Your contract is with the Landlord via the Agent. He has a seperate contract with the MGT co who has a contract with the Agent. You have no say as you are not a member of the MGT Co.

Marcusm

athtrasna wrote: »

I live in a managed development. For that privilege I have a significant mortgage and pay annual management fees. This gives me a right to have a say in the appearance of the development and to support the ban on dishes (which is very specific in my purchase documentation). It also gives me a share in ownership of the buildings and I don't want Sky or anyone else for that matter drilling holes in the walls or draping external cables down them.

As a tenant - you rent a property, when you're done with it you move on, you make no financial contribution to the development. Sorry to disagree but you have no right to a say in decisions like this.

Anthrasna,

I can understand your poins and agree with most f them. However, in most modern developments (ad I live in a large converted factory in London and a new build in Dublin), the dishes should be on the roofs and invisible. No cabling should be visible, especially where the block has been cabled already. It should be a matter of redirecting some of the cables from UPC to the satellite system. Likewise, it is possible to run satellite signals for a number of satellites down the cables with no extra effort.

In the Gasworks in Dublin, reflecting the multinational residents, a huge number of different satellite services can be accessed. Basically the cables for each flat are spliced in the comms unit to the correct signal source. And they all come into the flats through wall sockets with NTL on them!

Fitting a system ike this can foster harmony but also stop random dishes being put up.

athtrasna

I live in a multi cluster development where each cul de sac is its own cluster and has it's own management company. The cluster at the entrance from the main road got in Sky and have a number of communal dishes..which are on gable ends and have external cables. Since the communal dishes went up a flock of Aldi/Lidl dishes went up.

Speaking to a work contact who lives there, the problem is with non-Irish owners and tenants who cannot get their preferred channels through Sky. Hence them putting their own dishes up. There are rumours that it's gone legal on the grounds of discrimination - dishes have gone up for those who want premium channels in English but the non-Irish residents aren't entitled to put dishes up to get theirs. Their leases say no dishes without the approval of the management company.

It's a minefield! All or nothing is the safest policy

djimi

athtrasna wrote: »

I live in a multi cluster development where each cul de sac is its own cluster and has it's own management company. The cluster at the entrance from the main road got in Sky and have a number of communal dishes..which are on gable ends and have external cables. Since the communal dishes went up a flock of Aldi/Lidl dishes went up.

Speaking to a work contact who lives there, the problem is with non-Irish owners and tenants who cannot get their preferred channels through Sky. Hence them putting their own dishes up. There are rumours that it's gone legal on the grounds of discrimination - dishes have gone up for those who want premium channels in English but the non-Irish residents aren't entitled to put dishes up to get theirs. Their leases say no dishes without the approval of the management company.

It's a minefield! All or nothing is the safest policy

Thats just bad management to be fair. Theres nothing to say that you couldnt put up a communal dish and still ban people from putting up their own dishes. You could even go so far as to put up two communal dishes; one for Sky and the foreign stations. Its still a better solution than everyone for themselves (which by the sounds of it will happen no matter what) and its pretty clear that a lot of occupants want it.

athtrasna

djimi wrote: »

Thats just bad management to be fair. Theres nothing to say that you couldnt put up a communal dish and still ban people from putting up their own dishes. You could even go so far as to put up two communal dishes; one for Sky and the foreign stations. Its still a better solution than everyone for themselves (which by the sounds of it will happen no matter what) and its pretty clear that a lot of occupants want it.

Problem is you need different alignments for stations from different countries so in saying for example here's a dish for people from the ex-Soviet Union you are limiting other Europeans and also any Asian residents so if you put one up the others complain and if you give in that's several more dishes per block!! None is so much easier!

Marcusm

athtrasna wrote: »

I live in a multi cluster development where each cul de sac is its own cluster and has it's own management company. The cluster at the entrance from the main road got in Sky and have a number of communal dishes..which are on gable ends and have external cables. Since the communal dishes went up a flock of Aldi/Lidl dishes went up.

Speaking to a work contact who lives there, the problem is with non-Irish owners and tenants who cannot get their preferred channels through Sky. Hence them putting their own dishes up. There are rumours that it's gone legal on the grounds of discrimination - dishes have gone up for those who want premium channels in English but the non-Irish residents aren't entitled to put dishes up to get theirs. Their leases say no dishes without the approval of the management company.

It's a minefield! All or nothing is the safest policy

That's just a very unprofessional installation. Sounds like a home installer just put up octo LNBs and had to put up enough dishes to get a single or double feed for each apartment. Likewise, there's no reason to put the dish on the gable wall when it could be put invisibly on the roof.

Where I live, one dish (2 cables, one H and one V polarisation) feeds 70 apartments and the dish is invisible unless you're standing on the roof or falling through the sky with a parachute!

Likewise, accessing other Euro satellites should not be a problem as not that many dishes would be needed - some of them can "catch" signals from 3 different satellite arrays - just look over on the Satellite/Foreign Satellite sub forums.

A management company/committee should really get on top of issues like these; putting head in the sane is not really the correct approach. In your case, the installer should be called back to remove everything.

athtrasna

Marcusm wrote: »

In your case, the installer should be called back to remove everything.

Luckily it's not my case, it's a neighbouring cul de sac - one that is almost exclusively rented so the directors of the MC are non-resident and don't care as much.

Paulw

Marcusm wrote: »

That's just a very unprofessional installation. Sounds like a home installer just put up octo LNBs and had to put up enough dishes to get a single or double feed for each apartment. Likewise, there's no reason to put the dish on the gable wall when it could be put invisibly on the roof.

Where I live, one dish (2 cables, one H and one V polarisation) feeds 70 apartments and the dish is invisible unless you're standing on the roof or falling through the sky with a parachute!

A lot of developments are not high-rise. Many are 2-3 story buildings, were a dish can be seen even if roof mounted. Many also are not fully suited to roof mounting. And, due to small blocks, a single dish might only serve a small number of units.

We have two physically separated blocks in our development, so 3 dishes was optimal.

It's hard to say that an installation was wrong, without actually seeing the development.

Marcusm

Paulw wrote: »

A lot of developments are not high-rise. Many are 2-3 story buildings, were a dish can be seen even if roof mounted. Many also are not fully suited to roof mounting. And, due to small blocks, a single dish might only serve a small number of units.

We have two physically separated blocks in our development, so 3 dishes was optimal.

It's hard to say that an installation was wrong, without actually seeing the development.

If someone has installed multiple dishes serving Astra 28.2 satellites only on the gable end of a building with unsightly running cables, it can be called a bad installation without seeing it. It would be interesting to know what steps were taken to minimise damage to the waterproof skin.

Equally, in your own installation, did you look at a single dish solution or just accept the installer's approach. It's hard to see how 3 dishes are needed to service 3 adjacent small buildings; were they previously cabled for N/UPC?

Did you get planning permission, by the way?

Paulw

Marcusm wrote: »

Equally, in your own installation, did you look at a single dish solution or just accept the installer's approach. It's hard to see how 3 dishes are needed to service 3 adjacent small buildings; were they previously cabled for N/UPC?

Did you get planning permission, by the way?

The 3 dishes serve 112 units. The blocks are not that small.

The units are individually cabled for UPC (unit to an external junction). So, connecting that to a dish would not work well.

Planning permission was not required as the dishes were not on the front of the buildings, but were mounted inside the complex. They were also smaller than required under planning regulations.

ILoveShoez

My partner and I had it done and we are renting in an apartment complex of 6. Obviously cleared with the LL.

bernyh

I would love to live in one of these well managed apartment blocks........ we have a no personal dish policy which is NEVER imposed..... I actually myself after 6 years of ownership got sick to death of the communal dish provider, (if the dish went down on a bank holiday friday, expect it to be down till Tuesday) this happened a number of times so I got sick of it and sick of seeing foreign tenants with dishes up with wires hanging here there and everywhere without being challenged. So I decided if it's good enough for renters then its good enough for us so we got our own dish installled (professionally might I add, all the wires are secured and nothing is waving in the wind) I am so glad we did as less than 2 weeks later there was a fire which burnt all the cables for the communal dish.... it has been 5 months and as far as I know the cables haven't been renewed...

I've since decided that living by the rules is for mugs....... I spent too many years abiding by the laws of the management co who did nothing to enforce the rules or make sure that we had the best provider for the job........

Paulw

bernyh wrote: »

I would love to live in one of these well managed apartment blocks..

I spent too many years abiding by the laws of the management co .

But ... you ARE the management company. You and all other unit owners are the management company. You (collectively) make the rules. You (collectively) through the management agent enforce the rules.

Why not raise the issue at your company AGM?

Marcusm

Paulw wrote: »

The 3 dishes serve 112 units. The blocks are not that small.

The units are individually cabled for UPC (unit to an external junction). So, connecting that to a dish would not work well.

Planning permission was not required as the dishes were not on the front of the buildings, but were mounted inside the complex. They were also smaller than required under planning regulations.

Indeed, not that small.

I have seen the satellite cables connected via the legacy UPC cables both in private houses and apartment blocks. The cabling from the junction box is not owned by UPC.

My understanding is that the class 4 exemption applies only to houses and that no satellite dish may be erected on an apartment block without planning permission.

L1011

athtrasna wrote: »

There are rumours that it's gone legal on the grounds of discrimination - dishes have gone up for those who want premium channels in English but the non-Irish residents aren't entitled to put dishes up to get theirs.)

I'd hope it has - the EU TWF Directive allows you to have a dish to receive your home countries TV if available (that includes people living in their home country) and its not a right that can be signed away at that.

Planning consent will always be obtained if required when the LA is reminded of this.