future of computing here

albe

ive been reading it takes 2 to 4 years to learn a decent standard of programming with a useful skillset, then a further 4 to 10 years to approach proficiency.

so what are the predictions/opinions of what the jobs market will be like here in 5 to 15 years with regards to the trend towards outsourcing. what is trending towards being outsourced to cheaper countries and what is predicted to always stay in house.

opinions?

John_Mc

albe wrote: »

ive been reading it takes 2 to 4 years to learn a decent standard of programming with a useful skillset, then a further 4 to 10 years to approach proficiency.

so what are the predictions/opinions of what the jobs market will be like here in 5 to 15 years with regards to the trend towards outsourcing. what is trending towards being outsourced to cheaper countries and what is predicted to always stay in house.

opinions?

I'd say that it takes 2-5 years to reach a level of proficiency in your primary skills, and then another few years to bring them to an advanced level.

In terms of outsourcing, I've worked on a few projects with offshore development teams and it's no walk in the park. I've found that you need to micromanage them and their design, B.A skills and general common sense are lacking. E.g If they know they are going down the incorrect path, then they won't say it to you. It's a cultural thing.

I worked with one developer who recently changed companies and his new role was as a development manager in a company who'd just moved to Ireland from India. They wanted developers who would challenge bad ideas and speak up - so they came to Ireland

I think Irelands biggest challenge is producing enough quality IT graduates rather than outsourcing of development work. There is a serious shortage and I can see no government policies which are going to fix the problem.

albe

thanks for the reply, can you give an example of a 'primary skills' set.

Horati

I've been a programmer for over 30 years and it seems to me that the drive for youngsters to learn the art is disappearing, certainly in Ireland and the UK. This is in part due to the subject not being taught to teenagers, their general lack of interest (when I started it was a hobby as there was no xBox or 100 tv channels), and the devastating effect of outsourcing to India.

There is a common myth that a programmer needs maths to be proficient, I'd say that English is the more relevant as programs require syntax and structure.

Primary skills would be the use of variables and constructs which are basically the same for all languages. I'd start by grabbing the free version of Microsoft's Visual Studio and get started with Visual Basic. For web programming get into HTML and PHP (download the excellent XAMP to get going with those). Once you've mastered the basics, take a look at object orientation and then perhaps databases.

Good luck!

Tomas_S

Hi, thought I'll jump here, don't wanna open another thread.
I'm in first year doing Inf. syst. and Inf. technologies in DIT and wondering whats the best way actually to try and get into this environment for a first experience and to see what is actually going on?

Horati

Languages and environments change all the time. The current drive is towards intelligent web pages, next year with Windows 8 it will likely be some apps for the Microsoft store.
There is a chicken and egg situation in the industry :- most companies want to see experience and a portfolio but without getting work, this makes the situation difficult.
My advice would be to download XAMP, which enables you to setup a PC as a standalone web development environment, so that you can mess about and see your efforts as if they were live web pages, before you make the jump of uploading to the net for the public to see and use. XAMP will include the PHP language and the MYSQL database. Using an intelligent program editor such as Notepad++ you'll be able to to write HTML,PHP and Javascript based web pages and access a SQL database. Once you have all that, come up with a concept which will showcase your skills and will form the basis of your portfolio. There are very good online reference guides for HTML,PHP and SQL, so it's a case of diving in, getting feet wet and other aquatic metaphors.
I did exactly that when getting into PHP for the first time and came up with www.horati.com

The Corinthian

albe wrote: »

ive been reading it takes 2 to 4 years to learn a decent standard of programming with a useful skillset, then a further 4 to 10 years to approach proficiency.

In fairness I think that really depends upon the aptitude and previous experience of a developer; an already experienced developer will become proficient in a language a lot faster than a noob and some will become proficient faster because they have aptitudes in logic and numeracy - they're just smarter. Naturally, the quality of experience is also important; just because you code in a language for 10 years does not mean you are proficient in that language - maybe that part of the language that was used in your work, but that's it.

TBH, if it takes you up to 14 years to become proficient in a language, then my first thought is that programming is probably not for you.

Additionally we really don't have ten years to become proficient any more. For example, look at VB; version 1.0 came out in 1991, yet its successor, VB.NET was released only eleven years later, which by your calculations would make someone proficient in VB at best for only three years before it was 'replaced' and at worst three years after. All presuming that old VB was the same language throughout, which really it wasn't as it changed dramatically during it's development.

so what are the predictions/opinions of what the jobs market will be like here in 5 to 15 years with regards to the trend towards outsourcing. what is trending towards being outsourced to cheaper countries and what is predicted to always stay in house.

Outsourcing costs will increase; if you look at those developing countries that supply such resources, their standard of living is rising and with it salaries. For example, inflation rates in India (11.7%), Pakistan (13.4%), Ukraine (9.8%) are high, while in the West they're actually very low or even negative, such as Ireland (-1.6%) or the EU in general (1.8%).

All this will make outsourcing more expensive - especially when you add the overhead of managing outsourced teams - and local development cheaper and so will at the very least slow down the growth of outsourcing.

Another factor, which returns to your first point about proficiency, is the increasing abstraction of languages and, in particular, the rise of frameworks. This has made development faster and easier and thus programming resources have become cheaper - it actually never ceases to amaze me how many so-called Web developers, for example, don't even seem to understand the client-server model.

This means that programming is likely to become more of a youngster's game - they're cheaper and they are willing to work 60+ hour weeks. Those few programmers who survive into their forties, will only do so because there will still be specialized skills needed, or to manage/mentor/troubleshoot teams of younger programmers or because they're in a 'safe' job.

Beyond that most other programmers will have to move into parallel fields, such as analysis, project management, etc.

Horati wrote: »

I've been a programmer for over 30 years and it seems to me that the drive for youngsters to learn the art is disappearing, certainly in Ireland and the UK. This is in part due to the subject not being taught to teenagers, their general lack of interest (when I started it was a hobby as there was no xBox or 100 tv channels), and the devastating effect of outsourcing to India.

I disagree. Thirty years ago we may not have had the xBox, but we did have the ZX Spectrum and the Commodore 64 and it essentially filled exactly the same space with only a tiny percentage of people doing something more than playing games on it. Additionally, you were lucky if there even was a computer in your school, let alone it being taught.

Outsourcing to countries like India has only been devastating because a lot of programmers sat on their laurels and expected the market to remain the same forever. Funny thing is the first thing a techie will normally try to do in a job is make themselves irreplaceable, so why so many programmers didn't see this coming is beyond me.

Primary skills would be the use of variables and constructs which are basically the same for all languages. I'd start by grabbing the free version of Microsoft's Visual Studio and get started with Visual Basic. For web programming get into HTML and PHP (download the excellent XAMP to get going with those). Once you've mastered the basics, take a look at object orientation and then perhaps databases.

I started with procedural and later went onto OO languages and it took me ages to get rid of all of my bad habits learned from the former. If I were to do it all again, I'd probably start with OO first.

albe

thanks for the replies,

just in case i explained myself poorly, i was thinking of a self thought programmer starting studying today. so rather than one language a good skill-set/basket of tools.

so a dedicated smart student = 2 years, less smart = 4, minimum time to be decent.

and then the further 4 to 10 years to proficiency, was to allow for this smartness of student variability, and also to factor in the real time opportunity to progress further, given the constraints of the work they do in that period.

its a very open ended question, i guess any future-trending is, but experts in the field should have better predictions, so i thought i better ask before i did something stupid, lol.

as a potential self learner i'm a little concerned with this fuzzy opportunity to progress period. outsourcing competes with this 'decent' group right ? it could stretch out that period relative to today, like today's has been stretched out relative to 10/20 years ago.

i get the impression the band of brothers attitude of 20 years ago has also added a tuff rank and file system in the majority of situations, the growing complexity of projects requiring more foot soldiers.

these are some strong arguments against outsourcing, economics/culture, but at the risk of offending, could these be at least partially 'denial' within the industry.

albe

also what's the opinion on numeracy vs linguistics as a predictor of aptitude that horati brought up ?

(i have a strong mathematical mind but found learning a 2nd language in school almost impossible, like litteraly extreme ends of the spectrum, although boredom/application influenced the later.)

The Corinthian

albe wrote: »

just in case i explained myself poorly, i was thinking of a self thought programmer starting studying today. so rather than one language a good skill-set/basket of tools.

so a dedicated smart student = 2 years, less smart = 4, minimum time to be decent.

and then the further 4 to 10 years to proficiency, was to allow for this smartness of student variability, and also to factor in the real time opportunity to progress further, given the constraints of the work they do in that period.

Even for a hacker (which essentially is what the 'self taught' were called before the term was corrupted) if you're not proficient in five years, you probably never will be.

That's not to say that necessarily because you lack aptitude, but because you may well have already moved onto other languages and technologies long before then. It's the nature of the IT industry nowadays.

And the constraints of the work they do in that period is no excuse to the self-learner. That's what weekends are for.

as a potential self learner i'm a little concerned with this fuzzy opportunity to progress period. outsourcing competes with this 'decent' group right ? it could stretch out that period relative to today, like today's has been stretched out relative to 10/20 years ago.

i get the impression the band of brothers attitude of 20 years ago has also added a tuff rank and file system in the majority of situations, the growing complexity of projects requiring more foot soldiers.

I've no idea what you're trying to say here.

these are some strong arguments against outsourcing, economics/culture, but at the risk of offending, could these be at least partially 'denial' within the industry.

The principle problems with outsourcing are standards and logistics. The first really is only down to the fact that you get good and bad developers abroad; from the same city in India, I've come across some incredibly good, professional outfits as well as some serious cowboys.

Meanwhile logistics dictates that because of distance and (typically) language issues, outsourced developers have to receive both very clear instructions and be managed closely - also as there is effectively little civil redress for professional negligence.

The above two necessitate that you'll have to have one or more people locally who are specialized/experienced in analysis, requirements/specification documentation, and international project management. This realistically cannot be avoided, unless your development is very, very basic or you want to lose a lot of money.

And such people cost money. If they're good, they cost a lot of money. And even then you'll not quite have the same flexibility as an in-house team or local consultancy. Add all of this up and there are increasingly many cases where outsourcing won't make sense and as salaries rise in the developing World (and fall in the developed World) you'll see this becoming more and more common.

Don't get me wrong; outsourcing is here to stay, but let's not exaggerate the issue.

albe

the concern is if entry level work becoming both harder to get and having less of a future. its effect on the 2017 to 2027 work period of someone starting today.

im not claiming expertise, but i think its a reasonable concern before embarking on a long path, especially since the international experts vary in their opinions on the future effects of outsourcing globally.

i was curious as to the irish expert opinion on its future effects here.

personally i believe many of the problems associated with outsourcing will be addressed sometime in the next 15 years.

woppi

albe wrote: »

the concern is if entry level work becoming both harder to get and having less of a future. its effect on the 2017 to 2027 work period of someone starting today.

im not claiming expertise, but i think its a reasonable concern before embarking on a long path, especially since the international experts vary in their opinions on the future effects of outsourcing globally.

i was curious as to the irish expert opinion on its future effects here.

personally i believe many of the problems associated with outsourcing will be addressed sometime in the next 15 years.

Although this old article from 2008 deals with IT user support, rather than software development, it does relate to the question you're raising.

I don't share your optimism about the problems associated with outsourcing being addressed in the next 15 years. In my opinion there will continue to be skills shortage, but the skills employers will be looking for will be increasingly more on the creativity (articulation and visualisation of an idea/concept/problem) aspects of software development than knowing when to use a for vs a while loop.

albe

thanks for the replies, a lot of food for thought.

re: the 'optimism' , im factoring in the exponential growth of technologies and their ability to solve problems, maturing logistic systems built on those technologies, and the more rapid growth in educational standards in the off shore countries especially of the higher percentile just because of the shear numbers within the industry.

india for eg. is churning out 850,000 it grads a year, with the outsourcing industry expected to quadruple in the next 8 years. even if many are unemployable i would expect the percentage of employable grads to grow more rapidly each year than in smaller countries who are at a higher standard today, evolution on speed due to mass interaction.

i think while it is viewed here as 'they will do it cheaper' it is built there on 'we will do it cheaper, and we will do it better', i believe standards will raise along with salaries. catching up to standards is easier than innovating future standards.

so i guess its just how it all balances out in the end, but i would say that when political leaders such as obama are getting increasingly proactive in their anti stance on out sourcing, it is a sign of where the ecology will naturally bring us.

Sparks

To be honest, I think people are confusing being a proficient programmer with being a proficient coder. Certainly, if you can't code in the idioms of the language in 2-4 years and understand why those idioms are the way they are, there's some problem somewhere; either in your aptitude for that particular language (face it, prolog and erlang aren't things everyone groks), or in your training in that language.

But being a proficient programmer is more than knowing how to write an if..then..else construct in a particular language. It's about knowing whether or not you should write that if..then..else construct or whether a switch...case construct would be better; it's knowing how the compiler optimises things (which isn't always knowledge that's restricted to trying to optimise code, it has implications for debugging and testing as well). It's knowing how to estimate the time a job will take and knowing how accurate that estimate is. It's knowing how to break down a major task into parcels of work for other programmers in a team to take and implement seperately and how to reintegrate their work. It's knowing more than one language type (ie. knowing Pascal and QuickBASIC doesn't count as knowing two languages; knowing C and C++ does, in some respects; knowing C++ and Erlang definitely does) so that you have more than one paradigm to think about solutions in. It's knowing how to write documentation, and more than that, it's knowing that you *have* to write documentation. And more than that again, it's knowing that you have to write documentation for other programmers. It's knowing the tools, it's knowing how to get on with people in a team in a professional environment. It's knowing how to manage your time and balance more than one project so that none suffer excessively; and it's knowing when to flag (and who to flag it to) when you're genuinely overloaded and something is going to give. It's knowing the difference between a professional job and a fun hobby and how to turn the latter into the former while not losing the "fun" part.

14 years to become a proficient programmer? I've been doing this for 20 years now and on my good days, I know I'm still only getting started...

Cork24

Just Reading your Posts,

Im after studying C++ basic and Data Sturcture.(Link List, Sorting Arrays, Pointers)

What else would i need to Learn within C++ to get to a higher Level. I was looking into studying more into Database systems and would like to know how to build a C++ program that would work with your DataBase what type of books should i be ready?

and since alot of things are moving to GUI is their really need to study more into C++ or just move to Java

The Corinthian

Sparks wrote: »

To be honest, I think people are confusing being a proficient programmer with being a proficient coder.

Here we go with the old definitions debate...

14 years to become a proficient programmer? I've been doing this for 20 years now and on my good days, I know I'm still only getting started...

It's not that you're getting started, TBH, it's that the finishing line keeps moving.

Sparks

The Corinthian wrote: »

Here we go with the old definitions debate...

Well, we can use terms like "language lawyer" and so on if you want, but anyone who's still using the term "hacker" according to its original definition probably shouldn't throw rocks about other people's arguments on the grounds of definitions

It's not that you're getting started, TBH, it's that the finishing line keeps moving.

Indeed, and it's even wider than that; you realise that there are multiple finish lines, and that they're in virtually all directions. You started off learning what you thought were the fundamentals, but you later learn that there's a lot below them, even more above them, and then there's all this other stuff off to the sides and even more than that in entirely different spaces, all of which you need to bring together to do the job of being a professional programmer/software engineer/software developer/whatever you're having yourself.

And it's that job that can't get outsourced. Coding jobs go to India/China/whereever when outsourcing time pops up. Programming jobs don't (and that's the real demarcation line for when folks are wondering what the difference is between definitions)

albe

sparks, do you think optimization is loosing its importance.

if you put your paragraph in to a pecking order list 20 years ago, 10 years ago, today, is it slipping down the list a bit. ideally still near the top but practically less so in more real world applications. is it becoming something only noticed by those who get to look under the hood ?

Sparks

Cork24 wrote: »

What else would i need to Learn within C++ to get to a higher Level.

Go get a copy of Effective C++. Read it. When you find things you don't understand, dig into them until you do. Use it both as a textbook and a roadmap for a learning process.
That's been about the most effective means I've found so far.

and since alot of things are moving to GUI is their really need to study more into C++ or just move to Java

Short answer, yes.
Longer answer, I don't know where to start pointing out what's wrong with that sentence.
Best answer, yes, now go study and reread your question after a year.

Sparks

albe wrote: »

sparks, do you think optimization is loosing its importance.

No. Hell, that's what I'm doing a lot of at the moment. But it has changed a lot in the last twenty years. It's not loop unrolling and other low-level approaches anymore. We used to have fairly dumb compilers but then smart people worked on compilers for twenty years. We used to have quite basic storage layers but then smart people worked in the storage layer for twenty years. And so on; it's gone right back to Jackson's rules of optimisation in many cases (For the newbies, those are (1) Don't do it; and (2) Don't do it yet; for the oldies, yes, there are many people who had those rules, I just chose one to quote. Go have some ovaltine ).

By that I mean that the low level stuff, by and large (and there are always exceptions), is being done either by automated tools or in very low level layers. The guys building networked SANs and writing device drivers are still bit-twiddling, but people who are writing everything above that don't.

The real returns in optimisation come from the algorithmic level and the high level coding level. Not from bit-twiddling. So ignore trying to shave bytes off data structures on the storage end and ignore trying to shave one or two cycles off a loop by second-guessing the compiler on the performance end. Write good, clean code to a good, clean design, and then test the bejaysus out of it, debug it, and then establish meaningful metrics and thresholds of performance. Then look to changing stuff to hit those thresholds. And naturally, don't change stuff blindly, have a hypothesis and test it...

The Corinthian

Sparks wrote: »

Well, we can use terms like "language lawyer" and so on if you want, but anyone who's still using the term "hacker" according to its original definition probably shouldn't throw rocks about other people's arguments on the grounds of definitions

I think you've misunderstood my meaning. The whole debate on what constitutes a <insert-role-title> was had a few months ago and really went nowhere.

Indeed, and it's even wider than that; you realise that there are multiple finish lines, and that they're in virtually all directions.

Yes, I do. Thank you.

And it's that job that can't get outsourced. Coding jobs go to India/China/whereever when outsourcing time pops up. Programming jobs don't (and that's the real demarcation line for when folks are wondering what the difference is between definitions)

Yes and no. Thirty or forty years ago 'MADE IN CHINA' was synonymous with cheap and easily manufactured goods. As time passed the complexity and maturity of the manufacturing industry developed in such counties that has as a result put a lot of nations that specialized in more complex markets, such as textiles, under pressure. In another few decades, the high-end markets, such as engineering, will likely suffer the same fate as the developed World further 'develops' (Germany beware).

The same goes for IT skills and experience. In the nineties countries like India were churning out principally text support resources for the IT market, today low to mid level coders in vast quantities and in time the very skill-sets that "can't get outsourced" will begin to do exactly that.

Like it or not, about the only thing that has any protection from outsourcing is a customer facing role. Anything else, where being customer facing is a secondary or even tertiary factor, can.

However, as I suggested there is a silver lining; salaries in the developing World are rising (and falling in the developed World) and any outsourcing comes with an overhead that local resources do not. And a combination of these factors will likely see a slowdown of outsourcing in time, IMHO.

Sparks

The Corinthian wrote: »

Yes, I do. Thank you.

Speaking of misunderstanding, that was "you realise" as in "you come to realise" not as in "don't you realise yet"...

The same goes for IT skills and experience. In the nineties countries like India were churning out principally text support resources for the IT market, today low to mid level coders in vast quantities and in time the very skill-sets that "can't get outsourced" will begin to do exactly that.

No, it won't. The jobs you're talking about outsourcing are the core jobs of the company. The company itself might certainly move, but those core jobs just can't be outsourced, not without changing what "outsourcing" means and now we're back to a semantics debate. To do so would be to put revenue streams at an unacceptable risk. We're seeing that today in major transnational companies - I'm seeing it from the inside out at the moment. The architects and very high level programming jobs don't migrate from their home base; all the rest of the jobs can, but those are just not jobs that can be parceled up and sent down a phone line to a replaceable outsourced resource.

smemon

The big problem we have is that there's no IT / Dev subject at second level. At second level, i knew i wanted a career in IT but i was sitting in geography / irish / art classes etc.. which were all woefully pen and paper based. Even art wasn't digital art, it was 'draw something' with a pencil art which is completely different to working with tablets, photoshop etc...

So any tech lovers out there (a) spend time studying subjects they don't like (b) spend their days not working with technology. In ireland, the education hierarchy see technology as some geeky / nerdy thing people do in bedrooms. It's not taken seriously hence the reason we have zero subjects in the area.

In transition year, i ended up setting up a chocolate business and selling them. Others sold Christmas wreaths etc... it's times like that when you should be putting 3 or 4 years of studying web development in to action and starting to think about building stuff that people want / need. But unless you do all that learning in your own time, on top of school work, then you don't stand a chance.

Until that system changes, we'll still have plenty of 'tech' jobs here but it'll be because of our tax rate, not because of our endless pool of talented developers.

That said, as has been pointed out before, the whole culture thing is a huge advantage for us... we look at something and call a spade a spade... we'll challenge it and are pretty streetwise so our communication skills tend to be pretty good. Without the tech skills though, we probably won't create the companies of tomorrow even though we'll probably be working for/with them.

yawha

I tend to agree. I really feel that there needs to be a second level Computer Science subject, at both JC and LC level.

Also, I think that there exists an attitude that in order to foster a "knowledge economy", we need to throw computer resources at schools. This has been going on for more than a decade at this stage, and it's completely the wrong approach. Kids learning ECDL, and being able to research their Geography project on the internet in their school's computer room isn't negative, but it does absolutely nothing to foster interest in how computers work, programming/software development etc. Why is it that kids are learning relatively complex stuff about Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Economics etc. in school, but nothing about computers? Why can second level students explain all sorts of things about atomic structures, and chemical bonding, and radioactive decay, and thermodynamics, and magnetism, and human anatomy, and yet when asked about computers, come out with "oh, I no nothing about computers at all!"??

It's an absolute disgrace that nowhere in our education system is there any subject dealing with computers. Schools don't need computers, they need a subject that teaches kids what components make up a computer, how a computer executes instructions, what an algorithm is, how an algorithm can be implemented in computer instructions, what a high level language looks like and how algorithms can be implemented in them, what a function is, how a compiler works, what an operating system is etc. etc. None of this has to be taught at an advanced, in depth level, but kids should be coming out of school with at least a basic understanding of how devices which they use and encounter every day work. You pick this stuff up way easier when you're younger than if you only start when you enter college, if you even happen to pick a tech subject in the first place (where's the incentive to pick a tech course if you've never been exposed to tech concepts and don't really have much of an idea what's involved?).

And you don't even need a single computer in a school to teach any of this, the same way you don't need to perform a chemistry experiment for every chemistry concept you learn about. It's been over a decade since the dot com boom. Why there still has not been a subject like this introduced at second level is really beyond my comprehension.

The Corinthian

Sparks wrote: »

No, it won't. The jobs you're talking about outsourcing are the core jobs of the company. The company itself might certainly move, but those core jobs just can't be outsourced, not without changing what "outsourcing" means and now we're back to a semantics debate. To do so would be to put revenue streams at an unacceptable risk. We're seeing that today in major transnational companies - I'm seeing it from the inside out at the moment. The architects and very high level programming jobs don't migrate from their home base; all the rest of the jobs can, but those are just not jobs that can be parceled up and sent down a phone line to a replaceable outsourced resource.

I disagree and I've seen it happen already; outsourcing outfits are increasingly opening offices (or have local partnerships already present) in Western countries, to handle the client facing stuff, but all the programming resources, including the architects and very high level programming jobs remain in the developing World. Even where such a resource is required for part of the design process, it's considerably still cheaper to fly them over for a few weeks at the start of a project, than have someone locally.

This is not to suggest that this model is sustainable in the long run, given rising resource costs in the East and falling resource costs in the West, only to point out that even such roles can and do get outsourced. As I said, he only roles that cannot, or at least have some modicum of protection against it, are those that are client facing throughout the project cycle.

MysticalRain

The Corinthian wrote: »

I disagree and I've seen it happen already; outsourcing outfits are increasingly opening offices (or have local partnerships already present) in Western countries, to handle the client facing stuff, but all the programming resources, including the architects and very high level programming jobs remain in the developing World. Even where such a resource is required for part of the design process, it's considerably still cheaper to fly them over for a few weeks at the start of a project, than have someone locally.

This is not to suggest that this model is sustainable in the long run, given rising resource costs in the East and falling resource costs in the West, only to point out that even such roles can and do get outsourced. As I said, he only roles that cannot, or at least have some modicum of protection against it, are those that are client facing throughout the project cycle.

That has been my experience as well. 5 years ago, the company I work for would have hired an Irish software development company do write our new LOB app, and said company might have done some of the development work in India. This time we just skipped the Irish company and went straight to an Indian company to do the work. "Client facing" in our scenario basically means "can talk to you over skype". There is a bit of additional management overhead involved, plus some hidden costs, and the quality might be slightly less. But the business model basically works in the end.

The problem for the Indians of course is that in 5-10 years, they will be the ones complaining about software being outsourced to cheaper places like China, the Philippians or god knows where.

The Corinthian

MysticalRain wrote: »

"Client facing" in our scenario basically means "can talk to you over skype". There is a bit of additional management overhead involved, plus some hidden costs, and the quality might be slightly less. But the business model basically works in the end.

I agree that this model can work well if you (the client) are either an IT company or have an IT department, but in many cases 'client facing' does require at least one resource on the ground, especially at the requirements and design phases. Legal accountability is another factor for clients, which requires a local presence.

What you cited was five years ago; outsourcing has become significantly more sophisticated today. Many outsourcing firms in the East have partnerships in the West to handle sales and client facing activities, for example. And some have even opened their own offices in Western countries.

The problem for the Indians of course is that in 5-10 years, they will be the ones complaining about software being outsourced to cheaper places like China, the Philippians or god knows where.

Yes and no. The outsourcing work will go to the cheaper markets, but it depends upon how developed those markets are, and this doesn't always mean IT skills or even infrastructure.

For example (not strictly speaking outsourcing, but it nonetheless highlights the issue), a VP of one multinational whom I know, closed down their Canadian development office three years ago or so and transferred much of their development to China as, according to him, the salary cost for the entire Chinese operation was the same a a single senior developer in Canada.

However, they retained R&D and newer software product development in the West, only transferring older and legacy work to the new Chinese operation. Why? Not because of the skills there, but because China is still a bit of a 'wild east' where it comes to IP.

This is one of the many 'hidden' costs of outsourcing to the developing World, which is why I believe that in the West we don't actually need to match their prices, only become relatively competitive enough that the extra amount is worth it to avoid such risks and costs.