Car Impounded through no fault of driver

Lugh Ildanach

A friend of mine was in a Road Traffic Accident. There is no suggestion that my friend was at fault, a pedestrian ran in front of him with no warning. Thankfully the pedestrian is ok.

The gardai took the car, as they said they had to run some tests on it.

However, after the tests were carried out, they told my friend that he could collect the car from a private pound. He was not able to get up to the pound by the time they had mentioned, and the pound are now charging him a fee.

I've had a look at the legal provisions about the seizure of cars that were illegally parked or abandonned (ROad Traffic - Removal, Storage & Disposal Regulations). The car was not illegally parked and was not abandonned so these would not appear to apply.

I've also had a look at the Road Traffic (Section 41) Regulations which allow a garda to remove the vehicle if he is of the opinion that an offence has been committed.

All the above provisions allow for charges to be levied. But what if the garda is NOT of the opinion that an offence has been committed, and there is no issue of abandonment or illegal parking. Are there any provisions which allow them to charge you in these circumstances? Also, what if the garda is of the opinion that an offence has been committed, but you are subsequently cleared of any wrongdoing?

Tom Young

That's a matter for the Garda in question to deal with.

charlemont

A private pound !!! So the Gardaí are helping private businesses now, Hmm Doesn't surprise me one bit...I thought any seized vehicles would go to the nearest station yard that can accommodate them, Such as North Cork cars would go to Mitchelstown station..

Lugh Ildanach

Tom Young wrote: »

That's a matter for the Garda in question to deal with.

He's being told by the gardaí that its a matter between him and the company. He's being told by the company that its between him and the gardaí.

coylemj

I had an experience that almost ended up with me owing money but I got to my car on time to collect it.

The reg. plates were taken from my car in an underground car park at work and other plates put on it. A stolen car with my plates was then used in an attempted robbery. At 2 a.m. the following morning the cops came knocking on my door, they pointed out that I had false plates and said that while they accepted that I was innocent of any crime, they wanted to take my car way for forensic tests.

Being a law-abiding citizen I agreed so I gave them the keys. They told me that someone would be in touch when they were finished with my car and that I could then collect the car from a privately run storage depot in Kilmacanogue.

A couple of days later I had no word from the Gardai so I phoned the depot in Wicklow, they told me that the forensic people had examined my car and as the cops were now finished with it, I had to collect it that same day or they would start charging me an overnight charge.

Luckily I had a colleague who lived in Wicklow and he drove me down to Kilmacanogue that afternoon so I retrieved my car but I wasn't very happy with the way the Gardai dealt with the situation - they brought my car almost 20 kms down the N11 to a privately run storage facility and then never told me that I could collect it leaving me potentially open to storage charges.

MagicSean

Lugh Ildanach wrote: »

A friend of mine was in a Road Traffic Accident. There is no suggestion that my friend was at fault, a pedestrian ran in front of him with no warning. Thankfully the pedestrian is ok.

The gardai took the car, as they said they had to run some tests on it.

However, after the tests were carried out, they told my friend that he could collect the car from a private pound. He was not able to get up to the pound by the time they had mentioned, and the pound are now charging him a fee.

I've had a look at the legal provisions about the seizure of cars that were illegally parked or abandonned (ROad Traffic - Removal, Storage & Disposal Regulations). The car was not illegally parked and was not abandonned so these would not appear to apply.

I've also had a look at the Road Traffic (Section 41) Regulations which allow a garda to remove the vehicle if he is of the opinion that an offence has been committed.

All the above provisions allow for charges to be levied. But what if the garda is NOT of the opinion that an offence has been committed, and there is no issue of abandonment or illegal parking. Are there any provisions which allow them to charge you in these circumstances? Also, what if the garda is of the opinion that an offence has been committed, but you are subsequently cleared of any wrongdoing?

In relation to vehicles involved in a collision, the gardaí can seize the vehicle for inspection if they have reason to believe it is defective. If the collision is serious and there is a suspicion that an arrestable offence has been committed then the vehicle can (and should) be seized as evidence of the crime for technical examination. The owner will not be liable for storage or towing fees on these occasions. However, once the inspection is complete and the vehicle is no longer required it is up to the owner to collect it and they will be liable for storage fees after this date.

charlemont wrote: »

A private pound !!! So the Gardaí are helping private businesses now, Hmm Doesn't surprise me one bit...I thought any seized vehicles would go to the nearest station yard that can accommodate them, Such as North Cork cars would go to Mitchelstown station..

The towing and storage of vehicles has been outsourced for some time now. Stations aren't big enough to hold all vehicles seized. It doesn't actually change anything on the part of the car owner as the fees are the same wether the car is driven to the station by a garda or towed to a yard by a towtruck.

coylemj

MagicSean wrote: »

It doesn't actually change anything on the part of the car owner as the fees are the same wether the car is driven to the station by a garda or towed to a yard by a towtruck.

But it does matter if your vehicle is required for forensic testing as happened to me (see my last post above yours) because if my car had been in a Garda station I couldn't have become liable for storage charges which almost happened me because my car was down in Kilmacanogue and your colleagues never bothered to inform me when they had completed their tests.

Turner

If the state seize your car for psv or forensic tests they are liable for all the costs from the time they seize it until you collect it.

If individual Superintendents don't want to pay the storage fees they should ensure cars are taken to their station car park or a secure garage in any available station. Where the test can take place and no money is owed to a 3rd party towing company for storage.

O/P contact the Supt's office (of the Garda that seized your car) and tell them to ring the 3rd party towing company and inform them to release your car for free, and bill the Supt of the Garda that seized your car.

Lugh Ildanach

MagicSean wrote: »

The owner will not be liable for storage or towing fees on these occasions. However, once the inspection is complete and the vehicle is no longer required it is up to the owner to collect it and they will be liable for storage fees after this date.

But on what legal basis can they charge you?

No contract has been agreed. Surely if they want to charge you, they must have a basis in law to charge it. For example, in the illegal parking/abandonment legislation there is a section of the act which allows the authority to sue as if the charge was a contract debt, and which gives them legal authority to hold on to the vehicle until the charge has been paid (because they couldn't enforce it otherwise). But no such legal authority exists here.

In cases where you have a contractual debt, a tradesman/professional can in certain circumstances hold on to property belonging to the other party until a bill is paid, this is a proprietory right known as a lien, but as far as I know it must be attached to a contract or some other legal right.

What legal right do the gardaí or in this case, the private company, have over the car??

J K

Turner wrote: »

until you collect it.

Is that - until you collect it - open ended. Does he have a few months to pick it up. What about five years. Or would it be a reasonable amount of time having being informed the PSV Inspector had concluded his appropriate and legal examination of the car.

............ and bill the Supt of the Garda Taxpayer.

castie

I dont get this.

They take your car for tests.
Nothing is found wrong but they wont return it for you?
You must at your own cost recover your vehicle?

Sounds ridiculous

MagicSean

coylemj wrote: »

But it does matter if your vehicle is required for forensic testing as happened to me (see my last post above yours) because if my car had been in a Garda station I couldn't have become liable for storage charges which almost happened me because my car was down in Kilmacanogue and your colleagues never bothered to inform me when they had completed their tests.

You didn't become liable to storage until the examination was complete and you didn't have to pay the towing fee. You can still be charged storage for a car left in a Garda station. I don't know why you thought otherwise. I have no doubt that if you had been charged storage you would have been able to have it refunded because it was not through you own fault it was charged.

Lugh Ildanach wrote: »

But on what legal basis can they charge you?

No contract has been agreed. Surely if they want to charge you, they must have a basis in law to charge it. For example, in the illegal parking/abandonment legislation there is a section of the act which allows the authority to sue as if the charge was a contract debt, and which gives them legal authority to hold on to the vehicle until the charge has been paid (because they couldn't enforce it otherwise). But no such legal authority exists here.

In cases where you have a contractual debt, a tradesman/professional can in certain circumstances hold on to property belonging to the other party until a bill is paid, this is a proprietory right known as a lien, but as far as I know it must be attached to a contract or some other legal right.

What legal right do the gardaí or in this case, the private company, have over the car??

Interesting thought. When they contact you they say you must pick up your car or you will be charged storage. Could this not be construed as an offer which is accepted or rejected by your actions?

castie wrote: »

I dont get this.

They take your car for tests.
Nothing is found wrong but they wont return it for you?
You must at your own cost recover your vehicle?

Sounds ridiculous

How would it be any different to how you would have to return it anyway? Either you have to recover it from the crash site or the pound. If it's driveable then you drive it. If it's not then you have to get it towed. It doesn't affect the cost of recovery by you. Unless you are referring to the cost of going to the pound to pick it up yourself.

Lugh Ildanach

MagicSean wrote: »

Interesting thought. When they contact you they say you must pick up your car or you will be charged storage. Could this not be construed as an offer which is accepted or rejected by your actions?

If it was an offer, then it would have to be capable of being rejected. There was no option of rejecting the terms imposed.

My friend has asked the company to provide him with the legal basis on which they are holding on to the vehicle, and if they don't provide one, then he'll have no option to take civil action to recover it.

He will probably have to join the gardaí in any proceedings, and may pursue administrative action through the Ombudsman.

This could possibly constitute trespass to property? Or would it be better pleaded as conversion? What is the difference between these two torts? Are either or both torts actionable in the District Court? Interference with private property rights without any legal basis could also be contrary to the Constitution and Article 1 Protocol 1 ECHR. Any thoughts anyone?

castie

MagicSean wrote: »

You didn't become liable to storage until the examination was complete and you didn't have to pay the towing fee. You can still be charged storage for a car left in a Garda station. I don't know why you thought otherwise. I have no doubt that if you had been charged storage you would have been able to have it refunded because it was not through you own fault it was charged.



Interesting thought. When they contact you they say you must pick up your car or you will be charged storage. Could this not be construed as an offer which is accepted or rejected by your actions?



How would it be any different to how you would have to return it anyway? Either you have to recover it from the crash site or the pound. If it's driveable then you drive it. If it's not then you have to get it towed. It doesn't affect the cost of recovery by you. Unless you are referring to the cost of going to the pound to pick it up yourself.

My point was rather that say I work late on Thursdays.
Garda rings me on a Thursday morning telling me pick it up or I am charged.

Through no fault of mine I cannot collect it on that day yet I can be charged? But on the other side I also receive no compensation while without a vehicle for investigative purposes.

MagicSean

Lugh Ildanach wrote: »

If it was an offer, then it would have to be capable of being rejected. There was no option of rejecting the terms imposed.

My friend has asked the company to provide him with the legal basis on which they are holding on to the vehicle, and if they don't provide one, then he'll have no option to take civil action to recover it.

He will probably have to join the gardaí in any proceedings, and may pursue administrative action through the Ombudsman.

This could possibly constitute trespass to property? Or would it be better pleaded as conversion? What is the difference between these two torts? Are either or both torts actionable in the District Court? Interference with private property rights without any legal basis could also be contrary to the Constitution and Article 1 Protocol 1 ECHR. Any thoughts anyone?

Good luck to you. This is pretty much the same as the whole clamping situation.

castie wrote: »

My point was rather that say I work late on Thursdays.
Garda rings me on a Thursday morning telling me pick it up or I am charged.

Through no fault of mine I cannot collect it on that day yet I can be charged? But on the other side I also receive no compensation while without a vehicle for investigative purposes.

You should have twenty four housr before storage is charged. Perhaps the Garda was confused.

coylemj

MagicSean wrote: »

You should have twenty four housr before storage is charged. Perhaps the Garda was confused.

It's not just the Gardai who are confused if that is the case - when I rang the storage depot in KIlmacanogue after hearing nothing from the Gardai the guy (civilian) in the depot said that the forensic people had finished examining my car several hours earlier and that I needed to come and collect it that afternoon or I would be liable for storage charges starting that very night.

Luckily I was able to collect it the same day. In fairness I do accept that if I had been charged I'd have had every confidence that my local superintendent would have written a cheque for the charges because the car had been taken with away by the Gardai from my house with my agreement to be examined after false plates were fitted to it and my plates used in an attempted robbery.

Thoie

coylemj wrote: »

It's not just the Gardai who are confused if that is the case - when I rang the storage depot in KIlmacanogue after hearing nothing from the Gardai the guy (civilian) in the depot said that the forensic people had finished examining my car several hours earlier and that I needed to come and collect it that afternoon or I would be liable for storage charges starting that very night.

Luckily I was able to collect it the same day. In fairness I do accept that if I had been charged I'd have had every confidence that my local superintendent would have written a cheque for the charges because the car had been taken with away by the Gardai from my house with my agreement to be examined after false plates were fitted to it and my plates used in an attempted robbery.

In your situation, given that that gardaí had driven it away, why did they not drive it back? If I had been surprised by the gardaí turning up at my door asking to "borrow" my car, I'd expect them to drop it back again as well.

coylemj

Thoie wrote: »

In your situation, given that that gardaí had driven it away, why did they not drive it back? If I had been surprised by the gardaí turning up at my door asking to "borrow" my car, I'd expect them to drop it back again as well.

I didn't ask, maybe MagicSean can advise? I was told that the forensic people would phone me to say when they had completed their examination at which stage I would have to go and collect it but nobody called me.

Lugh Ildanach

Company backed down, have released the van without charging my friend and are apparently going to send the 1500 Euro bill to the Gardaí!

charlemont

Lugh Ildanach wrote: »

Company backed down, have released the van without charging my friend and are apparently going to send the 1500 Euro bill to the Gardaí!

That's one hefty bill for one car !!! Would it not be better and cheaper if they had a large yard for each area, Its not like the state doesn't own any land around the place, Paying private companies money like that is disgraceful, That money would be better spend on public facilities.

jblack

MagicSean wrote: »

. When they contact you they say you must pick up your car or you will be charged storage. Could this not be construed as an offer which is accepted or rejected by your actions?

That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the law of contract.