It is announced that Ireland WILL hold referendum on EU fiscal compact treaty

Nate--IRL--

Biggins wrote: »

Thats the treaty itself which will be ratified eventually later.
I would like to see what the actual text is, he's signing on Friday.
(Cheers for that link anyway)

Surely it is the treaty that gets signed by the signatory countries itself. If not that I haven't a clue what is actually signed. AFAIK ratification does not affect signing the treaty.

Nate

prinz

gerryo777 wrote: »

More veiled threats from ze germans...

When asked what would happen if Ireland rejected the Treaty he said: "If the treaty falls... it might lose credibility for Ireland, I don't know how the markets will react to it, how the interest rates will be (for Ireland to borrow)."

That's quite a threat alright. Jesus wept.

Biggins

At least we are going to get politicians calling once again to doors, to persuade you what way to vote.
Yes, I know ye are all looking forwards to that!

amacachi

_Gawd_ wrote: »

We have little choice - if you're sick, would you wait to take that medicine that is sitting on your locker? How long have we to wait? The recession is simply the market trying to re-balance itself out after government interference - it's a good thing, much like the coughing up the remaining phlegm after a flu. At this point, why would you want to expose yourself to more germs?

Well you're forgetting that the particular medicine you're talking about makes some limbs fall off.

Doc Ruby

Wait wait hold the presses

Ireland has little choice but to adopt the treaty given that ratification is a pre-condition for securing future ESM funding.

So if I get this right, the government will be forced to balance the budget if we vote no? You can sign me right up for that!

And no, getting more loans to pay for the loans to cover the loans is not a good option.

Cmere to me Enda, "Paddy" has a voice again.

Goodnight Croke Park.

gerryo777

stonetrower wrote: »

The shinners want you to vote yes

F**k what sinn fein have to say on this.

This is too important to be playing games with.

Use your head people, contact your local TD's, roar and shout and let them know what you think.

amacachi

Biggins wrote: »

At least we are going to get politicians calling one again to doors, to persuade you what way to vote.
Yes, I know ye are all looking forwards to that!

Are you a politician now?

Nate--IRL--

_Gawd_ wrote: »

It would bring about some kind of resemblance to the Capitalist system we have ignored for so long, although it wouldn't be enough. The problem is the deficit, we have to cut. The U.S are going to cut by trillions over ten years but don't believe the hype - nothing is getting cut. The only real solution comes in the form of cutting 1 trillion dollars out of the federal deficit in one year. Why does cutting work? Because you're putting money back into the pockets of the consumers and not distorting the market. People will have real capital for real investment, not malinvestments.

The first thing that needs to be dramatically cut is welfare. We can cut that in half because if you've read what we're paying out (for example, money to people not even living in the country) you'd have some idea of the lunacy involved in our spending patterns.

You didn't answer my question. What would be the effect on the Irish economy of an instant reduction in government spending by 30%

Nate

prinz

Biggins wrote: »

Thats the treaty itself which will be ratified eventually later.
I would like to see what the actual text is, he's signing on Friday.
(Cheers for that link anyway)
I' the undersigned, promise to discuss etc etc...

AFAIK he'll be signing the actual treaty. It will include a note that the treaty won't take legal effect until it has been ratified by whatever means by each coutry signing. Usually then when published it will have signed by...x.... on date.....y....., ratified on and took effect from date....z.....

Doc Ruby

humanji wrote: »

For once in your lives try and do something for the greater good.

We tried that and ended up carrying the can for Anglo. Ireland has been a superb member of the EU.

Fuck em.

Nyan Cat

I'd love to understand what I'm voting for. Not what the yes brigade and the no brigade want me to understand. Their pamphlets websites and news releases are always biased - of course - and both sides scaremonger!!!
Even if you research online you have trouble sifting through gobbledygook.
When in doubt as to what im voting for I vote no. I won't be scared into a yes (like the Lisbon business)

It's like neither actually want you to understand exactly what's at stake and what you're voting for because if you do you might well not vote the way they want you to. Which just won't do!

I really hope that we as a country have wised up to this ****e. If they try to pull another Lisbon and nice stunt - get a no vote so do it again they'll be a laughing stock. Or just somebody's b'tch maybe.

Biggins

amacachi wrote: »

Are you a politician now?

1. a person who is active in party politics.
2. a seeker or holder of public office, who is more concerned about winning favor or retaining power than about maintaining principles.
3. a person who holds a political office.
4. a person skilled in political government or administration; statesman or stateswoman.
5. an expert in politics or political government.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/politician+

I would have to say "No" (to your above question) if just going on the technical terms of the title.

I'm a humble citizen being a nuisance to elected officials so that they don't get too out of order!

lucylu

Apparently this will be the 1st referendum that if we vote against it, it wont matter, only it will be a 2 fingers to Europe and we want out. There will not be any re-vote as it wont matter.
12 out of 17 states have to say yes before it can be ratified. Even if we say No it will still go through... so don't be disillusioned if we do not get a write off on any of our debt for a Yes vote, there are 16 other countries in the pot.


Merkosy will approach this in the same way as they approached Greece.. You are either in Europe or you are not.

My name is URL

humanji wrote: »

This thread backs up my belief that voting should be a privilage and not a right. Is it any wonder that the country is f*cked when so many have decided to vote yes or no to a question they don't even know?

Isn't that always the way though? You can't blame people for voting in protest. If the public were given more of a say in the menial day to day running of things then they'd have no reason to vote spitefully on important stuff like this.

Voting is a privilege but it's counter productive when people only get to have a say on major referenda like this.

dvpower

lucylu wrote: »

Apparently this will be the 1st referendum that if we vote against it, it wont matter, only it will be a 2 fingers to Europe and we want out. There will not be any re-vote as it wont matter.
12 out of 17 states have to say yes before it can be ratified. Even if we say No it will still go through... so don't be disillusioned if we do not get a write off on any of our debt for a Yes vote, there are 16 other countries in the pot.


Merkosy will approach this in the same way as they approached Greece.. You are either in Europe or you are not.

It does matter.
If we vote against it it will still go ahead, but we won't be part of it.
If we're not part of it then we can't get future funding from the ESM

Nate--IRL--

lucylu wrote: »

Apparently this will be the 1st referendum that if we vote against it, it wont matter, only it will be a 2 fingers to Europe and we want out. There will not be any re-vote as it wont matter.
12 out of 17 states have to say yes before it can be ratified. Even if we say No it will still go through... so don't be disillusioned if we do not get a write off on any of our debt for a Yes vote, there are 16 other countries in the pot.


Merkosy will approach this in the same way as they approached Greece.. You are either in Europe or you are not.

I feel the same, however I think there may be few twists and turns before this has run it's course.

Nate

_Gawd_

amacachi wrote: »

Well you're forgetting that the particular medicine you're talking about makes some limbs fall off.

You need to elaborate....

I think it's in the benefit of the economy as a whole if a limb or two in the form of malinvestment falls off.

Sonic the Large Cock

so voting Yes means a dictatorship lead by Hitler ancestors and a NO means more Free Cheese?

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

It does matter.
If we vote against it it will still go ahead, but we won't be part of it.
If we're not part of it then we can't get future funding from the ESM

Sounds like blackmail to me...

Biggins

stonetrower wrote: »

The shinners want you to vote yes

They do?

Journal.ie says they are supporting a "NO" vote.

http://www.thejournal.ie/opposition-parties-welcome-announcement-of-referendum-368713-Feb2012/

amacachi

My name is URL wrote: »

Isn't that always the way though? You can't blame people for voting in protest. If the public were given more of a say in the menial day to day running of things then they'd have no reason to vote spitefully on important stuff like this.

Voting is a privilege but it's counter productive when people only get to have a say on major referenda like this.

You can blame them for voting in protest. It's childish.
You think the public should be given a say in menial spending? How would that work exactly? School caretaker has to get clearance to open a new bottle of bleach?

_Gawd_ wrote: »

You need to elaborate....

I think it's in the benefit of the economy as a whole if a limb or two in the form of malinvestment falls off.

In this analogy the limbs represent people. An overnight balancing would lead to a massive reduction in tax intake within a month requiring another massive slashing of payments everywhere. The healthcare system would rely on volunteers and I imagine the million or so unemployed would struggle for food, heat and shelter.

the_syco

OSI wrote: »

the No campaign

This part of the "have you worked in the last 20 years you custy bas***d" question?

=-=

Is Paddy Power taking bets on how many referendums it'll take to get a "yes" vote?

Son Of A Vidic

Merkel, here's my vote.

WhatNowForUs?

stonetrower wrote: »

There was an agreement already in place but the Germans broke that agreement when things were going apesh##. The rest of Europe followed and now we find ourselves in a bigger pile of apesh##. In a few years time when the pile of apes### becomes a mountain we will be stuck with it.
How much are we being asked to pay to support a yes vote and how much do we have to donate each year to support the same yes vote?
I am a lot older than most of you and I have been left with very little to survive on because of the European Union. Where were the EEC partners/allies when we needed them most? Now that they have bought/control us they want to bleed us.
A BIG NO from me and my family.

I'd be interested to know how the EU has messed you up. On a whole they have been very good to us. I don't like the direction its taking at the moment but I'm not going to let the current climate taint what has been a set of treaties and laws that have taken the country out of an economic hole, brought us clean rivers and beaches and brought us civil liberties that we could not even dream about twenty five years ago. i'll be waiting to see the treaty and will vote on its merits

Doc Ruby

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

a set of treaties and laws that have taken the country out of an economic hole

It was our low tax regime that did that, which the EU was not in favour of.

Biggins

Care of Nate in previous post...

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

...I'll be waiting to see the treaty and will vote on its merits

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

I think this is it here -- > www.european-council.europa.eu/media/579087/treaty.pdf

Nate--IRL--

amacachi wrote: »

In this analogy the limbs represent people. An overnight balancing would lead to a massive reduction in tax intake within a month requiring another massive slashing of payments everywhere. The healthcare system would rely on volunteers and I imagine the million or so unemployed would struggle for food, heat and shelter.

Thank you for answering the question GAWD has deliberately avoided.

Nate

funnights74

Let the scare tactics begin!!

_Gawd_

amacachi wrote: »

In this analogy the limbs represent people. An overnight balancing would lead to a massive reduction in tax intake within a month requiring another massive slashing of payments everywhere. The healthcare system would rely on volunteers and I imagine the million or so unemployed would struggle for food, heat and shelter.

History says otherwise. After WW2, the U.S brought home millions of unemployed people and the economy boomed. The regulations are killing this economy because people are not allowed to earn a living for themselves. I would be against taxation as it's destructive to capitalism but that's for another thread. It would be a good thing if the HSE collapsed - a market based system will always win out on consumer satisfaction and inexpensive pricing when coupled with relaxed regulation.

Liamario

Can we get a poll up in here?!

_Gawd_

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Thank you for answering the question GAWD has deliberately avoided.

Nate

What question? You've certainly asked none.

Nate--IRL--

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

You didn't answer my question. What would be the effect on the Irish economy of an instant reduction in government spending by 30%

Nate

_Gawd_ wrote: »

What question? You've certainly asked none.

Nate

Biggins

Liamario wrote: »

Can we get a poll up in here?!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056562636

WhatNowForUs?

Doc Ruby wrote: »

It was our low tax regime that did that, which the EU was not in favour of.

Structural funds

Sonic the Large Cock

what a crap Poll. I was hoping for a third option like, **** off Europe we'll get back to you!

amacachi

_Gawd_ wrote: »

History says otherwise. After WW2, the U.S brought home millions of unemployed people and the economy boomed. The regulations are killing this economy because people are not allowed to earn a living for themselves. I would be against taxation as it's destructive to capitalism but that's for another thread. It would be a good thing if the HSE collapsed - a market based system will always win out on consumer satisfaction and inexpensive pricing when coupled with relaxed regulation.

Careful now, War being good is a Keynes thing.

Doc Ruby

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Structural funds

What about them. The growth in the Irish economy was down to our tax regime, this is accepted fact among people who aren't pushing an agenda. Thats explicitly why all those big multinationals are here, without whom we'd really be up the creek without a paddle.

Biggins

funnights74 wrote: »

Let the scare tactics begin!!

No argument but being totally honest, there will be some genuine future possibilities in there too.
It would be remiss of people at least not to consider them also before voting.

patwicklow

patwicklow wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/taoiseach-announces-referendum-on-fiscal-compact-541541.html

The Taoiseach Enda Kenny and Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore have announced that the country is to have a referendum on the European Fiscal Compact Treaty.

I started this tread how come its mixed on this tread????

Biggins

patwicklow wrote: »

I started this tread how come its mixed on this tread????

I'm not a mod but generally similar threads are often merged into one longer one.

twinytwo

skelliser wrote: »

time to start buying dollars!!

forget dollars...its all about yuan

_Gawd_

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Nate

I've answered this question on more than one occasion over several posts. What happened to America when WW2 ended and they cut massive numbers from the spending hawks? Did the economy fall flat on it's face? No, precisly the opposite happened. Spending is Keynesian drivel economics, the same economics that got us into this - why on Earth would we prolong it?

_Gawd_

amacachi wrote: »

Careful now, War being good is a Keynes thing.

Not once have I stated that war was good for the economy. You would know this as I have been totally anti-John Maynard from the very start.
A reason The US budget is chaotic.

Biggins

LOL

Gotta love RTE Six-One news commentators sometimes!

"Will Sinn Féin’s Aengus Ó Snodaigh be tendering a printing contract for the "NO" campain?"

LOL Very good!

MEOWWWWWW

amacachi

_Gawd_ wrote: »

Not once have I stated that war was good for the economy. You would know this as I have been totally anti-John Maynard from the very start.
A reason The US budget is chaotic.

The US had massive industry ready. It was the dominant economy. We have no such advantages.
The UK had plenty of similar advantages after WWII as well but didn't go like the US. They won the war but their economy didn't grow like the Germans managed to with their reconstruction.

We have no competitive advantage. We'd have a worthless currency and be relying on agriculture FFS.

dvpower

gerryo777 wrote: »

Sounds like blackmail to me...

The choices we make have consequences. You want our creditors to continue to lend us money if we aren't willing to sign up to the terms?

humanji

Doc Ruby wrote: »

We tried that and ended up carrying the can for Anglo. Ireland has been a superb member of the EU.

Fuck em.

So we don't have to blame Bertie or FF or FG or labour or the developers or the bankers. We can blame you for not giving a f*ck about the rest of the country and voting specifically to screw over everyone else? As I said, voting should be a privilege.

My name is URL wrote: »

Isn't that always the way though? You can't blame people for voting in protest. If the public were given more of a say in the menial day to day running of things then they'd have no reason to vote spitefully on important stuff like this.

But the whole point of a representative republic is that we don't have to decide on the day to day running of things.

Voting is a privilege but it's counter productive when people only get to have a say on major referenda like this.

But voting isn't a privilege. It's not earned, it's given to you merely for reaching a certain age. That's why it's abused. If people had to actually make an effort to earn a vote, then they'd be more likely to try and use it for a good reason other than pure spite.

Sephiroth_dude

I will be voting no

_Gawd_

amacachi wrote: »

We have no competitive advantage. We'd have a worthless currency and be relying on agriculture FFS.

Aha! Now you're catching on - but we have a way to combat this. Competing currencies.

Why is it that individual countries compete internationally? Why not have currencies competing within countries also? The Euro will fall and you're right to point out that the Punt Nua will need some competition within Ireland. For this, Hayek proposed for example, for us to allow the dollar, yen, sterling, gold and silver and jelly babies to be used in transactions. Why? Because a central bank will not increase the credit supply causing inflation when other currencies are on the market. This does two things: it gives the people protection as they are not destined to be under the umbrella of a central bank - they may change their property into whatever currency is doing best and secondly, it raises the value of currencies as they're forced to compete.

Lastly, we do have a competitive advantage if we roll back taxes coupled with a relaxed regulatory economy, companies and people will flock here in their hundreds of thousands bringing with them saved capital.

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

The choices we make have consequences. You want our creditors to continue to lend us money if we aren't willing to sign up to the terms?

So far we've drawn down about €16 billion of the €85 billion in the IMF/ECB deal.

How much have we paid out to bondholders? How much in interest? Our 'creditors' are only giving us money to pay off the bondholders.
Look at what's happening next month, we draw down €3.29 billion today and pay out €3.2 billion next month in promissory notes.

You're right, the choices we make have consequences, I don't think that we're making the right choices now.....

We have to fight our corner, no more sackcloth and ashes.