How do you intend to vote in the upcoming EU Fiscal Treaty referendum?

hooradiation

Overheal wrote: »

What's the official reason they ran the same referendum twice.

It really doesn't matter what I say though does it?
You've established that you believe that voting on a treaty plus concessions that were negotiated specifically in response to the concerns that people had is somehow not 'democracy'
Voting isn't democratic, apparently.

hooradiation

GombeanMan wrote: »

There is a difference between a hard and a soft dictatorship.

This only exists in your head.
It's a convenience for allowing you to scream dictatorship without having to actually make sense.

GombeanMan wrote: »

If you are trying to argue that the EU isn't based at least partly on the old USSR model, minus the eyebrow raising parts, you aren't being fair to how this Union actually operates. Even the USA, which people tend to dislike, is far more democratic than the European Union. The proof? The president of the USA is elected as head of a Federal Republic. The EU head is simply chosen by the elites. Nobody gets a vote. Starting to sound like the USSR....

Your "proof" is laughable.
The President of the European Council (there is no such thing as president of the European union) and the president of the USA are in no way comparable.

For a start the man you're complaining about, is only the president of the European Council, not the entire EU. He is effectively a fucking secretary for European Council meetings

Less time linking other peoples youtube videos and more time doing some basic research seems to be in order.

K-9

mikom wrote: »

That we "didn't understand it the first time" or somesuch shite

Basically PR speak for the Government and other parties just being pure crap at explaining it.

later12

hooradiation wrote: »

Voting isn't democratic, apparently.

I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that re-running a referendum to usurp an undesirable result is undemocratic, but certainly, the drain that such re-runs can have on non governmental campaigns is significant.

The main political parties have a distinct advantage in that they can re-run referenda as many times as they wish. This option is not available to the public, or those outside the legislature who are opposed to the legislature's political opinions. Therefore, the latter face funding problems that would not arise to the same extent for the government parties, who can keep repeating referenda until they have worn out their opposition, which arguably happened during Lisbon.

There is also a hazard in that the public may decide "oh well what's the point in voting No, they'll just repeat the referendum... again".

suitseir

gerryo777 wrote: »

There is always a choice.

Are we going to continue making the wrong choices??

Did we REALLY ever have a choice???

suitseir

Anyone wrote: »

No from me. What I read yesterday about the German parliament discussing a leaked document before our Government about a mini budget here was the final straw.

And THAT'S a reason to vote NO???:rolleyes:

Coriolanus

I'm a federalist. I believe in the European project. I think it has been in the past, is now, and will be in the future, a Good Thing.

I'll be voting no.

hooradiation

later12 wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that re-running a referendum to usurp an undesirable result is undemocratic

"Re-running" implies that nothing changed - which isn't true.

Sheeps

I'm going to flip a coin and then make an informed demission based on what I've read about the outcome of voting either yes or no. The flipping of the coin is unrelated, it's just something I'm going to do before voting.

eth0

As soon as the posters start appearing for this referendum I'm going to have a couple of posters made

"Vote Yes - Avoid a repeat referendum"

Sure they're only 2.50 each

later12

hooradiation wrote: »

"Re-running" implies that nothing changed - which isn't true.

Nothing material changed. The clarifications were simply that - they confirmed what was in the treaty. Therefore, the treaty was re-run without any material change.

Overheal

hooradiation wrote: »

It really doesn't matter what I say though does it?
You've established that you believe that voting on a treaty plus concessions that were negotiated specifically in response to the concerns that people had is somehow not 'democracy'
Voting isn't democratic, apparently.

No, it matters. No need for evasion. So you are saying that 2nd referendum was not the same as the first, and if so which concessions changed? As you say I'm American I wasn't there to read all of the details thoroughly.

woodoo

No

sdanseo

Date announced for this today, 31st May.

richiek67

think I'll vote NO. They can shove it up their *****

Morlar

Still NO, despite blatant attempts at intimidation & interference in Irish domestic politics from our friends in international finance . . .

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0328/1224314009559.html

Bankers warn of No vote risk as EU treaty date set

STEPHEN COLLINS and ARTHUR BEESLEY

AS THE Government set the date for the referendum on the EU fiscal stability treaty, a major international financial institute has said that a No vote will damage the country’s ability to borrow.

The referendum date was announced in the Dáil yesterday by Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore following the weekly Cabinet meeting.

He named Thursday, May 31st as the day on which voters will be asked to amend article 29.4 of the Constitution to ratify the stability treaty and adopt the legislation required to bring it into effect.

Mr Gilmore yesterday urged strong support for the treaty and insisted that it was entirely separate to the effort to secure an improvement in the terms of Ireland’s banking debt.

“I have always said that these two issues are distinct. The treaty is about stability for the euro. The talks on the promissory note are about getting a better way for the country,” he said.

Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams TD welcomed the announcement of the referendum date but said that his party would be campaigning vigorously between now and May 31st asking people to vote No.

“Sinn Féin believes this treaty is bad for Ireland and for the EU and will institutionalise austerity into domestic constitutional law and international law in perpetuity,” said Mr Adams.

In Washington the Institute of International Finance, a powerful banking lobby which negotiated Greece’s €100 billion debt restructuring, said the referendum ranked among the current uncertainties that worried it the most.

“Putting it very simply, we worry about what happens if there’s a No vote. That throws the cat among the pigeons a little bit, specifically for Ireland,” institute chief economist Phil Suttle told The Irish Times.

“It would also raise questions about the strategy Europe is following in relation to the fiscal compact, possibly leading to demand for more referendums.”

The Government would have no right to draw aid from the European Stability Mechanism permanent bailout fund if voters reject the treaty, making markets more nervous about Ireland.

“Our general view on the Irish situation is: here’s your success story, and what we’re hopeful for is that that success story doesn’t get bumped off course.”

The institute, which draws its directors from Deutsche Bank, Commerzbank, Goldman Sachs, UBS, HSBC and Morgan Stanley, has told its members to be on alert for three strands of news from Ireland: economic performance following a new wave of fiscal austerity; opinion polls on the referendum; and “the rise of Sinn Féin” in polls.

“One of the things we notice is: Sinn Féin is quite supportive of taking a tough line on the promissory note issue. That’s something which will make international investors nervous,” Mr Suttle said.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny, who is on an official visit to China, stressed the importance of a Yes vote. “It is a statement of confidence about our country and about ourselves, it’s a statement for the future.”

Central Bank governor Patrick Honohan said yesterday that a deal to avoid the cash payment of €3.06 billion due this weekend on the bill for the Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide promissory notes was likely to be successful.

The plan to settle the payment with a long-term Government bond instead of cash in a deal expected within days would be a “very considerable step forward” and “a very definite gain” on the ability of the State to repay its debts, the governor told the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform.

Stiffler2

If the government want us to vote Yes I will be voting No
If the government want us to vote No I will be voting Yes

This is how all my votes will be casted from now on.

constitutionus

ah jaysus !

do yourself a favor . if a peice is written by stephen collins or has his name anywhere near it- dont read it.

this is the twonk that accused us all of being mad when we voted no to lisbon and cried about not being able to play squash with his pal gunther in brussles anymore!

anyone who says he'll give up his passport over stuff like this has jumped the shark.

DonQuay1

SafeSurfer wrote: »

How will you vote in the referendum?

Probably with a tiny pencil on a preprinted poll card ....

ilovesleep

I didn't do any research yet about this so I don't know what way I will vote.

Did anyone see enda kenny on rte news on sunday evening talking about this and giving us a speech on how important a yes vote is. He said that the train is leaving on jan 1st and we want to be on that train. The train that is europe will continue on without us or something.


Is that the gravy train you still want to remain on Enda?

suicide_circus

Taken from rte website:

"whatever differences we have at home, whatever differences we are having among ourselves I would say to the Irish people - do not kick the future in the face." enda kenny.

So eloquent, enda you really have a way with words.

preddy

Think ill vote NO the first time then YES the second time, really makem work for it.

pancakes rule

A video about the blackmail clause
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgT6UDd4V7g

Peetrik

At present I have zero confidence in our government. I believe they only have their own interests at heart and that those interests are in direct opposition to the best interests of the Irish people.

I will be voting NO.

Phill Ewinn

If FG told me to vote no I'd vote yes and vise versa. Whatever those quaaaaars want, they're not getting it.

MonkeyTennis

I think its a very sad state of affairs that people are going to vote no as a 2 fingered salute to the government.

You have your say at election time as to who you want to represent you.

Ive read a bit about the fiscal treaty and it seems more than reasonable mechanism to help stop this ****e happening again. If you are not going to vote on whats put before you dont deserve that right.

richiek67

I think anyone who can vote has a moral duty to vote YES on this occasion.
I'm bitter too on all the previous crap and I dont even like the present government any longer, however, we shoulden't cut off our nose to spite our face, so to speak.
If you have kids , you should also appreciate their welfare, 'YES' to help us out of this mess. We joined Europe for help and trade and we still need it. We have benefited enormously from being in the EU.
Dont let past banking etc skew your judgment....

Rich

smash

richiek67 wrote: »

If you have kids, you should also appreciate their welfare, 'YES' to help us out of this mess.

You're hilarious.

Tom

VOTE NO FOR YOUR KIDS SAKE

---

I think anyone who can vote has a moral duty to vote NO on this occasion.
I'm not bitter on all the previous crap and I even like the present government, however, we should cut off our nose to spite our face, so to speak.
If you don't have kids , you won't also appreciate their welfare, 'NO' to help us out of this mess. We joined Europe for help and trade and we no longer need it. We haven't benefited enormously from being in the EU.
Let past banking etc skew your judgment....

Tom

Tayla

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

I think its a very sad state of affairs that people are going to vote no as a 2 fingered salute to the government.

You have your say at election time as to who you want to represent you.

Ive read a bit about the fiscal treaty and it seems more than reasonable mechanism to help stop this ****e happening again. If you are not going to vote on whats put before you dont deserve that right.

It's an even sadder state of affairs when people vote yes to things because of scaremongering.

Having a say at election time isn't good enough when they can lie in order to get elected.

Some of us don't really care whether it happens again, the euro was a bad idea and we should all go back to our own currencies.

Tayla

richiek67 wrote: »

If you have kids , you should also appreciate their welfare, 'YES' to help us out of this mess.

I have kids and I will be voting NO and to be honest the yes voters makes me sick and furious because they will be locking our kids into fiscal slavery.

Dubit10

I'll be voting No. Only the mentally imbalanced would vote our futures away to these gangsters.

richiek67

Fiscal Slavery...lol, get a grip, we already have it. Voting NO will make it even worse, so that's:P what you want is it....like I said, dont cut your nose off to spite your face.

richiek67

Sorry but my final say here is that only uneducated fools will vote 'NO'.

Freddie59

richiek67 wrote: »

Sorry but my final say here is that only uneducated fools will vote 'NO'.

Of course they will.:rolleyes: The sheer arrogance on here at times is unbelievable. We've been taken for a ride with several referenda, being told that all is kosher, etc. And look what happened. And Enda and Happy Gilmore want us to vote yes? Like fcuk I will.

The strange thing though is the incompatibility of polls with relation to what's going on. FG up in the polls, 60% voting for the fiscal compact, just seems so peculiar.

And there will be idiots who will toe the party line and vote for it because Enda, Happy & Co says it's the "right thing to do".

In fairness Enda, after yesterday's debacle, sacking Phil would be the "right thing to do". We're still waiting.

Freddie59

Dubit10 wrote: »

I'll be voting No. Only the mentally imbalanced would vote our futures away to these gangsters.

Indeed.

Freddie59

richiek67 wrote: »

I think anyone who can vote has a moral duty to vote YES on this occasion.
I'm bitter too on all the previous crap and I dont even like the present government any longer, however, we shoulden't cut off our nose to spite our face, so to speak.
If you have kids , you should also appreciate their welfare, 'YES' to help us out of this mess. We joined Europe for help and trade and we still need it. We have benefited enormously from being in the EU.
Dont let past banking etc skew your judgment....

Rich

Banking is only a part of it. FWIW worth my kids aren't on welfare. All three (thank God) work - even though one had to emigrate at 18 to do so.

The deficit is the root cause - caused by high PS/CS pay and "entitlements", along with a ludicrously generous SW "system".

Slozer

Only sheep will vote yes and unfortunately this country is full of them. Government and co will use bully tatics (like they did for the Lisbon treaty). This European consolidation is not good for us and our democracy is slowly being taken voted away.

kevohmsford

Definite 'No' vote for me anyway.

AudreyHepburn

Personally I'll probably be voting No to this as I really don't like the idea of Merkle & Sarkozy having that kind of control over us. I do believe we need to remain part of the EU if we are to stand any chance of getting out of this recession but not like this.

It seems to me however that a lot of people are voting No purely to get one up on the Government and that is simply not a good enough way to vote. If we start basing all our voting decisions on what will piss the government off the most then we stand a good chance voting against something we really ought to vote for, or voting in favour of something we should be against.

If you want to vote No by all means do so, just make sure you do it for the right reasons, and not because you are angry and bitter and want to give Enda K the finger.

professore

dvpower wrote: »

A man who relies on borrowings has eveything to lose by refusing to sign the loan documents.

Obviously the hundreds of thousands in arrears with their jumbo mortgages agreed with you.

Tayla

richiek67 wrote: »

Fiscal Slavery...lol, get a grip, we already have it. Voting NO will make it even worse, so that's:P what you want is it....like I said, dont cut your nose off to spite your face.

Voting no will make it worse?:rolleyes: OK then

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It seems to me however that a lot of people are voting No purely to get one up on the Government and that is simply not a good enough way to vote. If we start basing all our voting decisions on what will piss the government off the most then we stand a good chance voting against something we really ought to vote for, or voting in favour of something we should be against.
.

I didn't vote for FG because I didn't believe a word they said, I did say however when they were elected that if they did the right thing I would support them, I knew several FG supporters at the time of the last referendum who knew nothing at all about it but said they were voting yes because their party said to vote yes, those people who blindly follow their party no matter what are a lot more dangerous to the country than those who go against them as a **** you.

professore

Tayla wrote: »

I didn't vote for FG because I didn't believe a word they said

So who DID you vote for? Who is this mysterious completely honest political party - please tell me for the next election because I haven't found them yet.

grundie

I'll be voting no because implementing the compact will change nothing.

The Eurozone "Stability and Growth Pact" contained rules to ensure member states had to keep their economies in good shape. Not too much borrowing, keep government spending in check - that sort of thing. It would appear all that was ignored.

We were abiding (mostly) by the rules until we had to bail out the banks, at which point the rest of the Eurozone positively begged us to borrow heavily and break the rules because of "exceptional circumstances".

The fiscal compact seems to be merely a restating of these rules.

Once the next big crisis comes around and someone needs to be bailed out, do you think the EU/ECB is going to care about this agreement? No, they are going to be begging someone to borrow heaviliy and allow the rules to be broken because of "exceptional circumstances".

Plus, even if there were no financial crisis. I think the proposed and existing Eurozone rules are just too hard to comply with - particularly for the smaller nations. If the rules were strictly enforced I could see economic development being stifled.

Phill Ewinn

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

:.........it seems more than reasonable mechanism to help stop this ****e happening again.

Hello? Anybody home?

How will it stop whats happened here exactly? For as long as there are corrupt politicians willing to destroy the nation for the benefit of their mates then no ''mechanism'' will stop this happening again.

Fix the mess with Anglo. Jail those politicians, bankers and civil servants responsible then come ask me about ''mechanisms''.

ilovesleep

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Ive read a bit about the fiscal treaty and it seems more than reasonable mechanism to help stop this ****e happening again. If you are not going to vote on whats put before you dont deserve that right.

It would have been very beneficial for us back in 2008 when the recession hit because the then government would have taken more of a proactive approach to the country's finances. Of course it would have meant that back in 2008 slashing spending and tax raises and minimum wage and wages all across the board reduced but we'd be in a better position today with the deficit not so large.

MonkeyTennis

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Hello? Anybody home?

How will it stop whats happened here exactly? For as long as there are corrupt politicians willing to destroy the nation for the benefit of their mates then no ''mechanism'' will stop this happening again.

Fix the mess with Anglo. Jail those politicians, bankers and civil servants responsible then come ask me about ''mechanisms''.

Firstly I said help stop and secondly the treaty isnt just for Ireland.

Can you tell me how voting no will help us then?

Slozer

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Can you tell me how voting no will help us then?

It won't help us as a no vote will be ignored or we will be asked to vote again.

anneer

I will vote no, the first time round and the second and the third and continue to vote no until this shower of pretenders get the message.

Hawk Wing 2

no