Referendum on Fiscal Compact

Atilathehun

So it seems, the ever so clever politicians and beurocrats, who thought they had designed a treaty, which would not need the approval of the Irish people, have not been so clever after all.
Now we gt to have our say!
Suppose farmers, would traditionally have voted yes to all things Europe.
Has that changed?
How will you vote?


A

5live

Atilathehun wrote: »

So it seems, the ever so clever politicians and beurocrats, who thought they had designed a treaty, which would not need the approval of the Irish people, have not been so clever after all.
Now we gt to have our say!
Suppose farmers, would traditionally have voted yes to all things Europe.
Has that changed?
How will you vote?


A

I will vote no. And i will keep voting no until enough people vote yes to pass it:pac:

Tora Bora

Fine Gael, say vote yes! But those bastrads, told us a pack of lies, and made a heap of commitments before the election, just to get into government. Once in power, they renaged left, right and centre.

Labour, say vote yes! Ditto all the same comments re Fine Gael.

Fianna Fail, say vote yes! Bunch, of criminals, who led the country into the mess it's in.

Fcucke them all, I'm voting NO:

mikemac1

Vote yes for jobs!

bbam

It's hard to know how to vote at this stage. We need some serious impartial information from the Referrendum Commision but alas I fear all we will get is a load of scaremongering from both camps.

The truth is I think we might be too far down the EU road not to vote yes.
Alot of analysis's say we will need another baleout package and if we vote no apparently we can't get more support.
Personally I think a default would be too hard to live through to be worth risking.

BeeDI

bbam wrote: »

It's hard to know how to vote at this stage. We need some serious impartial information from the Referrendum Commision but alas I fear all we will get is a load of scaremongering from both camps.

The truth is I think we might be too far down the EU road not to vote yes.
Alot of analysis's say we will need another baleout package and if we vote no apparently we can't get more support.
Personally I think a default would be too hard to live through to be worth risking.

As things stand, we face years of slow painful austerity budgets, and a stagnating domestic economy, outside of farming, agribusiness, and the multinational sector. Even at that we will probably not be able to go back to the markets for money, and so we will need another bail out.

If we vote yes, we have access to such a bail out, whwn not if we need it. No doubt, when the time comes, Sarkozy and Merkel, will attach more strings, and probably scupper our corporate tax rate. That would damage the only sectors going well. Agribusiness and multinational companies.

If we vote no, the government will simply have to have even more austerity measures in a short time. More taxes, public service cuts, welfare cuts. Might even have to cut the amount of ink the Shinners can take out of the Dail.

The upside if any, is we could tell Sarkozy and Merkel, where to stick their corpoprate tax.

bbam

I appreciate your sentiment. And agree with most of it.
However the treaty limits access to the new permanent bail out fund to those countries who have agreed to the treaty, please correct me if I'm wrong?

Also there are an enormous number of households (including my own) who rely on public money which pays the wages. If we default there well may be no cash to pay wages to these households, ongoing funding will allow a gradual reduction in the PS pay rates without plunging decent honest families into the dark ages. 99% of PS workers are honest decent hard working individuals and don't deserve what may be forced on them. I appreciate this may be an unpopular opinion, it's still a very serious issue.

eorna

Tora Bora wrote: »

Fine Gael, say vote yes! But those bastrads, told us a pack of lies, and made a heap of commitments before the election, just to get into government. Once in power, they renaged left, right and centre.

Labour, say vote yes! Ditto all the same comments re Fine Gael.

Fianna Fail, say vote yes! Bunch, of criminals, who led the country into the mess it's in.

Fcucke them all, I'm voting NO:

+1

5live

bbam wrote: »

I appreciate your sentiment. And agree with most of it.
However the treaty limits access to the new permanent bail out fund to those countries who have agreed to the treaty, please correct me if I'm wrong?

Also there are an enormous number of households (including my own) who rely on public money which pays the wages. If we default there well may be no cash to pay wages to these households, ongoing funding will allow a gradual reduction in the PS pay rates without plunging decent honest families into the dark ages. 99% of PS workers are honest decent hard working individuals and don't deserve what may be forced on them. I appreciate this may be an unpopular opinion, it's still a very serious issue.

And Greece was only supposed to get one bailout, no default and massive spending cuts and tax increases before any bailout funds were released, all of which was fudged to such a degree that it was meaningless and they got a second bailout, a default and funds released despite most of the agreed measures not being carried out.

If we vote no and look like defaulting (which we will, with a debt/GDP of >120%), it will impact badly on the euro so Merkosy will have to bail us out again.

The treaty is practically meaningless to us anyway because there is no way we will be able to comply with its provisions. We have to reach a Debt/GDP ratio of 60% in the next 20 years. That will require a budget surplus of 3% for about 20 years when, at the minute, we are struggling to reach a deficit of 3%. Where will the 6% of GDP come from straight away?

I agree with you about the PS workers, indeed all workers but we have a choice to make. Death of a thousand cuts or a quick amputation. Neither is appealing but only one has any chance of working imo:(

Farmer Pudsey

It is time to stand up and vote no and tell the FF, FG and LAB politicians that come around that next time at the local election's that we will be voting for SF ( it will hurt me to the quick to vote for then and I do not know if they will be any better) and the independants.

Forget about the scare tactics if we vote no they will piss on themselves in Europe and what will happen if they do not sort it out we will have to default the out new currancy call it the #unt will depreciate compare to the euro so anything we export (milk beef calves lamb ) will be paid in #unt's converted from euro's as well as our SP .

Then Social Welfare, higher paid CS, bankers, etc will get a pay cuts. We will become very attractive for foreign investment, property will again be at a realistic price, tourism will take off if the EU gets uppity enforce out 200 mile sea limit and catch and export all our own fish not letting the French& Spanish do it

bbam

The thing that irks me is the lack of impartial information.
I suppose like many were on the fence here as to which way to vote.

Both sides are essentially throwing out the same smoke bomb threats as to what might happen but few facts so far.

While I feel like voting no just as a two fingers to the government and EU I am worried that the knock on effect would be devastating to the country.

Atilathehun

bbam wrote: »

The thing that irks me is the lack of impartial information.
I suppose like many were on the fence here as to which way to vote.

Both sides are essentially throwing out the same smoke bomb threats as to what might happen but few facts so far.

While I feel like voting no just as a two fingers to the government and EU I am worried that the knock on effect would be devastating to the country.

I heard Alan Shatter on radio today, saying that the diciplin which this treaty would enforce on future governments, by keeping max budget deficits within legally binding targets, is the single most compelling reason for people to vote yes.
My question is, why do we need a European treaty to do that?
Can't we bring in our own domestic legislation, to do that if it's such a desirable thing!!
I thought, at the last election, we had cleaned and fumigated the government, of all the old self serving, back slapping idiots, of old FF brigade.
But you know, today it's not much better. Ministers breaking the so called new salary caps, to get their mates in as "advisors". Ruari Quinn, claiming thousands of euros, flitting up and down to his holiday home in Roundstone. Some other two bit, FG member, getting Irish Rail, to put on extra services in his home turf, where Irish Rail are already losing €20k a day. The childrens hospital fiasco. Minister for healtyh O Reilly, firing staff one day, paying big sums of redundancy, and hiring them back the next week!! HSE paying out millions of euros in reedundancy, to staff who left the health service fifteen years ago, but never actually signed any leaving or resignation papers.
FFS, if we ran our animal registration system like that, the farms would be locked up, and all the cattle seized:mad:

bbam

Atilathehun wrote: »

I heard Alan Shatter on radio today, saying that the diciplin which this treaty would enforce on future governments, by keeping max budget deficits within legally binding targets, is the single most compelling reason for people to vote yes.
My question is, why do we need a European treaty to do that?
Can't we bring in our own domestic legislation, to do that if it's such a desirable thing!!
I thought, at the last election, we had cleaned and fumigated the government, of all the old self serving, back slapping idiots, of old FF brigade.
But you know, today it's not much better. Ministers breaking the so called new salary caps, to get their mates in as "advisors". Ruari Quinn, claiming thousands of euros, flitting up and down to his holiday home in Roundstone. Some other two bit, FG member, getting Irish Rail, to put on extra services in his home turf, where Irish Rail are already losing €20k a day. The childrens hospital fiasco. Minister for healtyh O Reilly, firing staff one day, paying big sums of redundancy, and hiring them back the next week!! HSE paying out millions of euros in reedundancy, to staff who left the health service fifteen years ago, but never actually signed any leaving or resignation papers.
FFS, if we ran our animal registration system like that, the farms would be locked up, and all the cattle seized:mad:

You see the problem there was you bought into the whole notion of "new politics" that this shower were selling.. There is no "new politics", just new politicians regurgitating the same old nonsense and lining their pockets as they go...

The last general elections was just a change of faces to continue the same dirty practices.. I've said before, the only reason FG have a clear past it the fact that they were incapable of getting into power for so long and so were kept away from the "honey pot"

Simple example... how often do we hear them saying that if we reject Europe there will be no more money to pay teachers,guards, nurses, doctors... all shocking if it were to happen... no word of there being no money to pay politicians or their cronies in the top positions ???

Personally I'm for pushing out the finances as far as possible, wait for the world economy to recover which will pull us along back into some sort of recovery.. Talk of an overnight balancing of the books and turning our backs on Europe scares the sh1te outa me..

johngalway

I will be voting yes based on the explanation I have heard today. Voting no because of other, unrelated issues is stupid. Unless I hear dramatically different relating to the issue which we will be voting for I can't see my vote changing.

Tora Bora

johngalway wrote: »

I will be voting yes based on the explanation I have heard today. Voting no because of other, unrelated issues is stupid. Unless I hear dramatically different relating to the issue which we will be voting for I can't see my vote changing.

Voting yes to this, without as a an absolute minimum, a SUBSTANTIAL, reduction on our banking debt, I believe is foolish.
The Irish state, by guaranteeing all our banks, and taking the liabilities in the backs of you and me, and generations to come, prevented a run on the European banking system.
All we have got for our trouble, is attack after attack on our corporate tax system, from sarkozy in particular.

If enda can't negotiate a debt reduction as a sweetner, for this referendum, then he should just piss off back to castlebar for ever more

babybrian

I dont know yet what way I will vote but I am a bit peed off with the way things are going at the top so it might be a 'no' for that but I'll wait and see the facts.

Its just so hard to hear of all these cuts, money , jobs etc. while bankers and speculators(gamblers) are being baled out..I go to the galway races every year and if I bet 20 on a horse to win and he falls or ends up last I dont go back to the bookie looking for my 20 back..
And also europe cant let us fail(run on the banks) so it might be just a way of showing our disgust at the powers that be by voting NO..

I will say one thing, we have a mighty little constitution


Extract from the proclamation :cool:
We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people

bbam

Tora Bora wrote: »

If enda can't negotiate a debt reduction as a sweetner, for this referendum, then he should just piss off back to castlebar for ever more

I doubt he could negotiate a hump in a hooor house..

I have long since lost all faith in our political representatives.. I could care less who is in power if they were looking after the average man on the ground...

We should be looking to vote on facts and information on the topic at hand.. Voting to make a point could have terrible knock on effects...

Are we really sure that EU won't let us go to the wall?? I'd say if we don't vote yes then the appetite for giving us a dig out might be diminishing quickly..

island of tighe

i will be voting yes.any right minded irish farmers would want to have rocks in their heads to vote no.farmers had not a pot too piss in before we joined the eu.without sfp most farm families would be unviable.dont be cutting off your nose to spite your face.we need to be part of the eu going forward as trading farmers.there is no use looking backwards.you cant put the **** back in the horse.move on vote yes

before im accused of being a fg man i can guarantee i never voted fg in my life!!!!!!!!!

Atilathehun

island of tighe wrote: »

i will be voting yes.any right minded irish farmers would want to have rocks in their heads to vote no.farmers had not a pot too piss in before we joined the eu.without sfp most farm families would be unviable.dont be cutting off your nose to spite your face.we need to be part of the eu going forward as trading farmers.there is no use looking backwards.you cant put the **** back in the horse.move on vote yes

before im accused of being a fg man i can guarantee i never voted fg in my life!!!!!!!!!

Our membership of the EU, is not at stake here, whichever way we vote!
The referendum is not about membership!

electroboy

The referendum needs to be passed in order to secure the next bailout which we will almost certainly need. With the level of debt we currently have returning to the market is a no no. the financial implications of the vote will be far reaching, this government will come and go, and I dont believe even Sinn Fein would of done anything different. Political parties number one priority is to get into power at any cost and that'l always be the way we wouldn't vote them in if they said they'd bring in legislation we didn't like.

bbam

Atilathehun wrote: »

Our membership of the EU, is not at stake here, whichever way we vote!
The referendum is not about membership!

Ya see this is where the ****e comes in.
A clip of Enda was played on the 1pm news and he said people need to think if they want to be part of the Euro or Europe before voting.

I mean if he's let away with this type of scaremongering then there is no chance of a
Decent discussion on the subject.

I'd suspect he's desperate to deliver a yes if he's already spouting rubbish.

I'd say alot of people will vote without actually knowing the implications of voting either way. It would be allot cheaper to just toss a coin.

Tipp Man

Have seen nothing in this yet which would make me think why anybody in this country would want to vote no

This is about proper governance and proper management of the finances of a country - it makes sense. This country is spending way way way more than it can afford to spend - without even mentioning the banks

People saying i'm voting no because of austerity, or Enda lied, or I hate Labour now are nothing but complete and utter clowns and are probably a fair part of the reason that we have the country we have

Bleating Lamb

island of tighe wrote: »

i will be voting yes.any right minded irish farmers would want to have rocks in their heads to vote no.farmers had not a pot too piss in before we joined the eu.without sfp most farm families would be unviable.dont be cutting off your nose to spite your face.we need to be part of the eu going forward as trading farmers.there is no use looking backwards.you cant put the **** back in the horse.move on vote yes

before im accused of being a fg man i can guarantee i never voted fg in my life!!!!!!!!!

Would be FF myself...hope they weed out all the wasters soon...agree...Farmers have gained immeasurably from Europe.....but Enda should get the finger out and at least threaten Europe slightly about the reperrcussions of a no vote.

Good loser

johngalway wrote: »

I will be voting yes based on the explanation I have heard today. Voting no because of other, unrelated issues is stupid. Unless I hear dramatically different relating to the issue which we will be voting for I can't see my vote changing.

Agree fully with that.

I have voted yes to all EU treaty proposals and will here.

Since 1974 the EU has been good for us in the broad sense in practically all its actions.

Depressing to see all the usual media nay sayers come out of the woodwork so quickly. I'd like to see their predictions for the last referendums examined in detail to see how accurate they turned out to be.

This time the issue is narrower. It is not alone good for us but good for the other Eurozone countries. The timelines are not strict. It's fair if all countries have to meet the same budget targets.

yourpics

The treaty will impose greater levels of austerity on citizens for an indefinite period of time. One economist has estimated that it will require, at a minimum, a further €6bn of cuts and tax hikes post 2015. Austerity is NOT working, think about it, you are paying extra taxes but nothing has changed. Unemployment is higher than the average in the Eurozone, wages are being slashed, emigration is all around you. Austerity is leaving people with no quality of life.

Furthermore the treaty would seriously undermine the choices available to future governments to manage the state’s economic affairs and in doing so undermines our sovereignty.

One has to question how much it really matters though because, despite a Yes vote for Lisbon, we are now in a bailout program which contravenes the Lisbon Treaty.

mostatom

yourpics is spot on, this level of austerity is not working, Enda Kenny needs to get his finger out and tell Merkosy that we will not be ratifying the treaty until something is done about reducing our repayments. They need to push out the timeline so that we pay back less each year, to give us a chance to recover. We now have the best chance we are ever going to get to put pressure on Merkosy. Greece took their time deciding what to do and David Cameron stood up to them, now its our turn, but i guess Kenny will just roll over as usual.
I'm a long time FG voter, (never again), and will be voting no.

5live

This link sums it up fairly well for me...

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/karen-coleman-vote-yes-to-appease-merkel-and-germanys-taxpayers-3038348.html

My inclination is to vote no unless the 31 billion in Anglo debts are taken over by EUcentral bank, as we took it on to prevent a european banking collapse. Their debt, not ours! If that is done then i would have few enough reservations as most of what is in it is already on our statute books