Baldurs Gate 3?

gizmo

Reekwind wrote: »

2D isometric roleplaying games. And no, I wouldn't include Diablo in the latter category

Well you had said that you "recognise that that vein of games has had its day", but it hasn't, we have the likes of The Witcher 1/2 for "good story-driven complex RPG" and we have Diablo III to show that an isometric style game, albeit in a new 3D engine, can work.

Reekwind wrote: »

No. I'm not going to celebrate charging people money to buy a reskin. If you want to highlight BG then re-release the originals, run a promotion, do other stuff that you're supposed to have a marketing department for. Don't spend a game budget updating some 2D textures that adds next to nothing to the gameplay

What's the difference between charging people for a reskin (and admittedly some new content if Beamdog are to be believed) and charging people for the original game when there literally is no alternative. As I said before, Beamdog are both developing and distributing this game, they clearly don't have the funding for a full blown AAA follow up to these games and given Interplay's current financial position neither do they.

Reekwind wrote: »

Of course from Interplay's perspective the latter is far more desirable: they can sell this to the original fans as well. And there is no excuse for selling someone the same game twice. On both sides: would you really buy the entire Black Isle back-catalogue just for a minor graphical upgrade? I think that's just strange when the originals are still perfectly playable

Would I buy them again? If HD remake turns out to be good with a worthwhile visual upgrade and some new content and there was a decent bundle price on the likes of Steam then yes, I would. That's not because I don't think the originals aren't perfectly playable, I just think it'd be nice to revisit them with said new content and visual upgrades.

Reekwind wrote: »

And the reality is that no major publisher is ever going to make a BG clone again. We can hope and expect good RPGs (the genre is far from dead) but nothing that would resemble BG. If you want to get the next generation hooked on quality storytelling and sharp writing then point them at Bloodlines or Alpha Protocol rather than a ruleset that even D&D heads consider outdated

I certainly don't disagree with the games you've mentioned (although I still prefer Redemption to Bloodlines ) but as other posters have said, I don't see any reason why we can't do both.

Reekwind wrote: »

How about an industry obsessed with repackaging the past instead of producing new content? Would you like it if Valve gave up on Episode 3 (assuming it exists) in favour of a HD version of the original HL? This obsession with the past is, as I've said before, fundamentally reactionary and to the detriment of innovation in gaming

Again, there is no viable alternative to this project, at least in terms of the BG licence, so the Valve comparison isn't entirely valid. There are other RPGs out there, such as The Witcher series which is capable of giving me that fantastic RPG fix.

Reekwind wrote: »

And it's catching. We've had Jagged Alliance and Monkey Island. Now we're getting BG and X-COM. That's not even mentioning the likes of Syndicate. This is an industry in which Interplay - a decrepit shell of a company that hasn't thought of making original games for a decade - has a role. It can now look forward to existing by cashing in on a back catalogue of games developed by others. That should not be a feature of this industry, not if it still prides itself on innovation

Of the games you've listed, apart from Syndicate, I don't see anything wrong with them. The Special Editions of Monkey Island were fantastic, they offered the original games as is and also gave us the shinier version and the ability to switch back and forth at will. The Tales series offered more stories in the same universe which was also welcome. X-Com, at least the Firaxis game, is shaping up to be fantastic. Syndicate and the 2K X-Com game, on the other hand, did it the wrong way. They basically made a completely different game and just used the IP to bolster sales, that I can't agree with.

Reekwind

To be honest Magill, you've just proven my point for me. This was never that 'new games are not being released' but that the industry is suffering a dire dearth of innovation, of which this BG remake is the latest example. Of course you would have had to have read the rest of my post to get that reference but whatevs

Of the games in your backlog that you've listed above, no less than 6 of 8 are sequels. That's not including Dead Space 2 or Mass Effect (by which I'm being generous in assuming that you meant the original). Of the ones you'll probably never buy, 8 of 11 are sequels/knock-offs (counting TOR as original). That's what I would expect and it's what I was referring to above. You say that this is an overreaction of mine and then post a list in which the vast majority of AAA titles are sequels. How foolish of me to think that innovation in the industry was suffering :rolleyes:

So yeah... stop acting like this remake (Of which is often described as the best RPG ever made) is awful for the video game industry because us "fools" can clearly see that its not !

I hope by this stage you're aware that nothing you've posted above actually addresses what I've been arguing over the past few posts? Besides supporting it, I suppose. And the "fools" that I was referring to are those who will happily pay twice for a game, despite the availability of a mod that renders this unnecessary

Magill

Reekwind wrote: »

To be honest Magill, you've just proven my point for me. This was never that 'new games are not being released' but that the industry is suffering a dire dearth of innovation, of which this BG remake is the latest example. Of course you would have had to have read the rest of my post to get that reference but whatevs

Of the games in your backlog that you've listed above, no less than 6 of 8 are sequels. That's not including Dead Space 2 or Mass Effect (by which I'm being generous in assuming that you meant the original). Of the ones you'll probably never buy, 8 of 11 are sequels/knock-offs (counting TOR as original). That's what I would expect and it's what I was referring to above. You say that this is an overreaction of mine and then post a list in which the vast majority of AAA titles are sequels. How foolish of me to think that innovation in the industry was suffering :rolleyes:

I hope by this stage you're aware that nothing you've posted above actually addresses what I've been arguing over the past few posts? Besides supporting it, I suppose. And the "fools" that I was referring to are those who will happily pay twice for a game, despite the availability of a mod that renders this unnecessary

But your acting as if its ever been different... sequels are a massive part of gaming and always have been. If you list 10 of the best games ever made.. most of them are probably sequels (Baldurs gate 2, diablo 2, half life 2, Most of the zelda games, system shock 2, GTA:SA, Mario Bros 3/ SuperMarioWorld... the list goes on and on).

This generation of games is no different, with sequels often being superior to the orginal game. Your idea of innovation is also warped, a new storyline does not = innovation. Most of those games are new franchises from this generation of games, next generation will most definitely have another completely different bunch of big name sequels in the last few years of its lifespan, as has previous generations. This is not the movie business.


P.S There has been plenty of innovation this generation, even in that list above from the last year contains plenty.

danthefan

Was there some golden age of pure innovation that I missed? I grew up playing Sonic, Final Fantasy, Mario + Mario Kart, Streets of Rage, Street Fighter and the likes. All plenty old, all classics (imo), and even 10+ years ago all had multiple sequels.

gizmo

Baldur's Gate 3 is "our long-term goal", says Beamdog

*ahem*

Reekwind

Well they're not going to say "Yeah goys, we're just in this for, like, the dosh". I mean, AFAIK, Beamdog don't even have a proper development studio; just a few artists and the like

gizmo wrote:

Well you had said that you "recognise that that vein of games has had its day", but it hasn't, we have the likes of The Witcher 1/2 for "good story-driven complex RPG" and we have Diablo III to show that an isometric style game, albeit in a new 3D engine, can work.

Honestly, I don't see where you're coming from here. Neither The Witcher nor Diablo are in the 'same vein' as BG. The Witcher is clearly a spiritual successor (and the type of innovation that I approve of) while Diablo's 3D graphical engine can't hide the fact that it is almost an entire genre removed from BG

I think it's pretty clear what I meant by "that vein of games". If I must spell it out: we're talking about the 2D isometric D&D RPGs in the Black Isle style

What's the difference between charging people for a reskin (and admittedly some new content if Beamdog are to be believed) and charging people for the original game when there literally is no alternative

In practice? Price. You can be certain that BG:EE will cost more than BG on GOG

But then that's a false premise: there is an alternative. If there was not, if BG was out of print and entirely unavailable, then I'd be happy to row in behind this cash exercise. We know that a perfectly good alternative does exist however

Again, there is no viable alternative to this project, at least in terms of the BG licence, so the Valve comparison isn't entirely valid. There are other RPGs out there, such as The Witcher series which is capable of giving me that fantastic RPG fix.

And the Witcher, and other such modern examples, are the future. This is where the genre is going. Harking back to ye old days is not going to help this process, it's not going to encourage sales in new and innovative titles. And, as I've spoken of at length, that's a problem and it's something that reinforces this risk-averse and franchise obsessed industry mindset

Of course if you do want a hardcore 2D isometric fix then I'd suggest looking at indie series that clearly draw inspiration from BG, but aren't afraid to tell their own stories, rather than giving money to Interplay

Of the games you've listed, apart from Syndicate, I don't see anything wrong with them. The Special Editions of Monkey Island were fantastic, they offered the original games as is and also gave us the shinier version and the ability to switch back and forth at will. The Tales series offered more stories in the same universe which was also welcome. X-Com, at least the Firaxis game, is shaping up to be fantastic. Syndicate and the 2K X-Com game, on the other hand, did it the wrong way. They basically made a completely different game and just used the IP to bolster sales, that I can't agree with

The point was that this practice has become increasingly common. Monkey Island I have no problem with because getting the originals to run actually was a real chore to get running. Note that it didn't spark any interest in point n click adventures. Jagged Alliance was by all accounts a disaster: a remake that completely missed the point/soul of the original without adding anything worthy or new. If I want to play X-COM then I load it up, I don't see why a company of Firaxis' quality feels the need to remake it

Syndicate, as I said earlier, I don't mind companies doing something new with an IP. I'd rather it wasn't a bog standard shooter, distinguishable from the herd only by its famous name, but I'm not one to venerate brands. I'm not upset about this BG affair because it happens to be BG that they're mutilating. I don't like slapping a brand on a different game but it's clearly better than setting out to remake the original in minute detail

Magill wrote: »

But your acting as if its ever been different... sequels are a massive part of gaming and always have been. If you list 10 of the best games ever made.. most of them are probably sequels (Baldurs gate 2, diablo 2, half life 2, Most of the zelda games, system shock 2, GTA:SA, Mario Bros 3/ SuperMarioWorld... the list goes on and on)

Well you're right and you're wrong. I can guarantee that if you looked at the top selling PC games for 1998 you would find a much higher share of original titles. Unfortunately I don't have sales figures but you can compare the top ten critically acclaimed games of 1998 with those from 2010. Shockingly the latter only has a single original title there. It's a rough comparison but it serves to illustrate the shift over the past decade and a bit. So yes, there is clearly a difference between generations

Where you are right is in noting that differences between sequels are obviously important. The leap between Q2 and Q3 (which I've already mentioned) is far more than that between ME2 and ME3. That's another aspect but one that's more difficult to quantify - the sheer volume of sequels serves as a rough indicator

Similarly, none of this means that these sequels are necessarily bad games. They can be fine examples of game design and production. They're just not particularly original or ground-breaking. Plenty of people honestly don't care that they're playing the same FPS year after year, I see the overall trend as poison

[Edit: Now I am getting nostalgic. 1998 was a great game for games. Look at all those great original titles: HL, Falcon 4.0, Anno 1602, Delta Force, Gangsters, Grim Fandango, TOAOW, Wargasm, Thief, etc. Great days. Quality of gameplay is probably the same today but in terms of innovation that really was a great time]

Your idea of innovation is also warped, a new storyline does not = innovation

Of course. It's pretty integral but hardly enough on its own. You also have graphics, gameplay mechanics, writing, etc, etc. All of these must be taken together to judge the degree of innovation that a game displays

danthefan wrote:

Was there some golden age of pure innovation that I missed?

The weasel word here is "pure". I'm not suggesting that sequels or knock-offs did not exist in the past (although they were clearly more common on the corporate-dominated consoles) but that they were far less predominant then they are today. The obvious corollary to that being that there was more original content being produced back in the day

gizmo

Reekwind wrote: »

Well they're not going to say "Yeah goys, we're just in this for, like, the dosh". I mean, AFAIK, Beamdog don't even have a proper development studio; just a few artists and the like

Well they could have said "When we're done with Baldur's Gate we're going to move onto Icewind Dale and, if we can, Planescape Torment".

As for Beamdog, they most certainly do have a proper development studio. The work they did with MDK2HD could not have been done with just new assets, likewise getting BG to run in the BG2 engine and adding additional content couldn't be done either. Don't forget, this is the company founded by two old school Bioware engineers.

Reekwind wrote: »

Honestly, I don't see where you're coming from here. Neither The Witcher nor Diablo are in the 'same vein' as BG. The Witcher is clearly a spiritual successor (and the type of innovation that I approve of) while Diablo's 3D graphical engine can't hide the fact that it is almost an entire genre removed from BG

I think it's pretty clear what I meant by "that vein of games". If I must spell it out: we're talking about the 2D isometric D&D RPGs in the Black Isle style

My point was that there is/was ample evidence that neither the 2D/3D isometric style nor hardcore RPG ones were past their day therefore there's no reason not to combine both again in the future. One could argue why would you want to bother of course, I mean there's no reason you couldn't create a complex story driven RPG in the Lycium Engine (Dragon Age II) engine .

Reekwind wrote: »

In practice? Price. You can be certain that BG:EE will cost more than BG on GOG

More? Yes. Much more? Well that remains to be seen. I'd be happy to see it around the $15 mark.

Reekwind wrote: »

But then that's a false premise: there is an alternative. If there was not, if BG was out of print and entirely unavailable, then I'd be happy to row in behind this cash exercise. We know that a perfectly good alternative does exist however

From Beamdog or Interplay? There is none.

Reekwind wrote: »

Of course if you do want a hardcore 2D isometric fix then I'd suggest looking at indie series that clearly draw inspiration from BG, but aren't afraid to tell their own stories, rather than giving money to Interplay

Assuming Interplay are getting anything out of this deal other than an upfront licencing cost, similar to what they would have gotten from the GoG deal.

Reekwind wrote: »

The point was that this practice has become increasingly common. Monkey Island I have no problem with because getting the originals to run actually was a real chore to get running. Note that it didn't spark any interest in point n click adventures. Jagged Alliance was by all accounts a disaster: a remake that completely missed the point/soul of the original without adding anything worthy or new. If I want to play X-COM then I load it up, I don't see why a company of Firaxis' quality feels the need to remake it

Actually I think the MI revival did spark an interest in point and click games. A huge number of folk I know who had never played those or the old LucasArts games before tried that out, loved it and went and bought further games from Telltale such as the Sam n Max games, the Tales series of MI and Hector.

As for X-Com, I cannot fathom how any fan of the original games wouldn't be totally pumped to see what Firaxis are doing. On the other hand, I'd be absolutely shocked to find any such fan have nothing but utter contempt in their eyes upon seeing the 2K game.

Reekwind wrote: »

Syndicate, as I said earlier, I don't mind companies doing something new with an IP. I'd rather it wasn't a bog standard shooter, distinguishable from the herd only by its famous name, but I'm not one to venerate brands. I'm not upset about this BG affair because it happens to be BG that they're mutilating. I don't like slapping a brand on a different game but it's clearly better than setting out to remake the original in minute detail

As for Syndicate, well I quoted this in the thread for that game and I think it summed up my feelings on it perfectly.

If Starbreeze had snubbed convention and made a strategic co-op shooter with a global reach, it could have been amazing. As it is, it's the sort of almost-there effort that entertains for now but will likely be forgotten by Christmas. Pick it up for the highly enjoyable co-op, but just don't expect it to outlast its FPS rivals.

The difference here of course being that you're dealing with a rights owner who had more than enough money to make the kind of game fans of the series wanted but choose instead to shoe horn the licence into a forgetable sci-fi shooter. That I have happily voted against with my wallet.

Magill

Reekwind wrote: »

Well you're right and you're wrong. I can guarantee that if you looked at the top selling PC games for 1998 you would find a much higher share of original titles. Unfortunately I don't have sales figures but you can compare the top ten critically acclaimed games of 1998 with those from 2010. Shockingly the latter only has a single original title there. It's a rough comparison but it serves to illustrate the shift over the past decade and a bit. So yes, there is clearly a difference between generations

Where you are right is in noting that differences between sequels are obviously important. The leap between Q2 and Q3 (which I've already mentioned) is far more than that between ME2 and ME3. That's another aspect but one that's more difficult to quantify - the sheer volume of sequels serves as a rough indicator

Similarly, none of this means that these sequels are necessarily bad games. They can be fine examples of game design and production. They're just not particularly original or ground-breaking. Plenty of people honestly don't care that they're playing the same FPS year after year, I see the overall trend as poison

1998 was a great year... but these things happen in waves... take 2007 for example, You had:

Bioshock
Mass effect
Supreme Commander
Crysis
gears of war
Portal/Orangebox
The Witcher
Assasins Creed
Okami
Uncharted
World In Conflict
Resistance
S.T.A.L.K.E.R

Im sure i probably missed some but im sure you get the idea.

mhairt

Just after installing it using the BGT mod which used the BG2 engine for BG1 and using the widescreen mod. Heres how it looks

spankmaster2000

Whoah, I'm not sure where this debate came from; but, allow me to row in with my own opinion (and I'm sure there are many other gamers out there who will have to agree):

1. I've never played BG 1 & 2, but I want to.
2. I'm extremely lazy.
3. This HD update sounds good to me.

Simple as.

Krusader

mhairt wrote: »

Just after installing it using the BGT mod which used the BG2 engine for BG1 and using the widescreen mod. Heres how it looks

have you a link to the BGT mod please




BG1 at 1024x768 using Widescreen mod

gizmo

Here's a link to the EasyTutu mod which is a streamlined installer for the Tutu mod. There's also links to the original mod on the page.

mhairt

Crosáidí wrote: »

have you a link to the BGT mod please


link is here
http://www.spellholdstudios.net/ie/bgt

Dcully

Links to BGT mod are dead for me.

Also i cannot get the widescreen mod to work properly.
Ive tried using 1024 X 768 and 1280X1024 which ive heard are the best to play with to avoid tiny text[i know theres also a mod for that].
It works but only the top left corner of my screen is being used to render the game.

Tar.Aldarion

Can't wait to get this, baldurs gate = win. Simple as that. One of the best games ever made! Even played co-op and slaughtered each other

Can't wait for some magic missile and glyph action.

Krusader

Dcully wrote: »

Links to BGT mod are dead for me.

Also i cannot get the widescreen mod to work properly.
Ive tried using 1024 X 768 and 1280X1024 which ive heard are the best to play with to avoid tiny text[i know theres also a mod for that].
It works but only the top left corner of my screen is being used to render the game.

I used this GUI mod also
http://athkatla.cob-bg.pl/viewtopic.php?t=3257

Dcully

Off topic i guess but i thought all BG fans would be interested in this.

Age of Decadance seems to take inspiration from BG.
Public beta demo is available now.
Details and working dload link over on RPS.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/22/oh-look-the-age-of-decadence-public-beta/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgOolAndA_I

Krusader

DnD Master Collection €5.09 on Impulse
http://impulsedriven.com/dndmaster

Zapp Brannigan

Mac version

I'm a happy panda! Specially with the iCloud support, that means it should sync with my iPad. They've just gotten two sales from me!

Burgo

A bit of news about the enhanced edition:

raised level cap
new content
possibility of new voice work
new UI which supports higher res
better mod support

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/04/17/the-heresy-of-baldurs-gate-enhanced-edition/

Zapp Brannigan

Why has there been no word on this? It's summer, give me Baldurs Gate so I can stay in and avoid that pesky sun!

Niska

Some more info from the official site http://www.baldursgate.com/index.en.html

Out September 18th, Price $19.99 USD on PC
September iPada nd Mac OS
Android TBA


3 New characters

Rasaad yn Bashir, a Cali5hite Monk.
• The Monk Rasaad yn Bashir, a new NPC to join your party
• A new playable adventure
• New area: the Cloud Peaks

Neera a Wild Mage

• The Wild Mage Neera, a new NPC to join your party
• An engaging romantic adventure
• Up to four hours of additional gameplay
• New area: a secluded hideaway northeast of Durlag's Towe

Dorn Il-Khan a Blackguard.

• The Blackguard Dorn II-Khan, a new NPC to join your party
• Up to four hours of additional gameplay
• The Blackguard kit to create your own champion of ev

A new dungeon The Black Pits

• A stand-alone adventure set deep within the Underdark
• Fifteen levels of arena-style combat challenges
• Full control and customization of up to six party members
• Over 6 hours of additional gameplay

And Further Enhanments:

http://www.baldursgate.com/enhancements.en.html

Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition for Windows contains the following enhancements:

New Adventure: The Black Pits
New Character: Dorn Il-Khan
New Character: Neera the Wild Mage
New Character: Rasaad yn Bashir
A new collection of player character voice sets
Native support for high resolution widescreen displays
Over 400 improvements to the original game
Improved multiplayer support, with connectivity between all platforms

(edit) Had to replace the s in Cali5hite with a 5...

Zapp Brannigan

Can't wait. Don't know whether to go for it on my Mac or my iPad though.

gizmo

Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition delayed from September to November

*phew*

At least now I'll be able to play this on release rather than being torn between it and Borderlands 2.

quarryman

I guess it's a good sign in that they are trying to improve the quality instead of rushing out a buggy mess but was really looking forward to playing this this month

Zapp Brannigan

Devestated. Was really looking forward to it being out this week!

Now I'll have to choose between this and Persona 4: Golden!

VenomIreland

Comes out this wednesday: http://baldursgate.com/windows.en.html

Really looking forward to playing this with some friends of mine.

quarryman

iPad version delayed AGAIN:

http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/iPad/Baldur's+Gate%3A+Enhanced+Edition/news.asp?c=46870

Kiith

I wish they'd just give us an Android release date already.

gizmo

Kiith wrote: »

I wish they'd just give us an Android release date already.

Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition out today on PC but delayed on Android, Mac, iPad

"We'll get Android done before Christmas," he [Trent Oster] announced. "The list of supported devices might be very Nvidia skewed though."