Shannon Airport (Feb 2012 - Jan 2014)

Lady Chatterton

GCU Flexible Demeanour - less of the insulting language, you can make your point without using terms like 'bunch of old farts' to describe people. I doubt you would like to be described in that derogatory manner yourself.

Reminder: Please use the report function if you have an issue with any post.

periodictable

godfrey wrote: »

Right...
Shannon Airport has suffered for decades at the hands of the DAA, but the unions are now shouting objections as it finally is to become autonomous. This smells to me like the lazy-arsed, protected union workers are fearful their game might at last be up.

What do you think?

Time to privatize the airport. I'd give it to O'Leary on a lease for 10 years to see what he could do with it.
Unions, politicians and career civil servants stay away please.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brennans Row wrote: »

Ah that's pure wind-up-merchant tripe, you are dragging the discussion down to an insulting level.

I am putting in an obnoxious way, but not with an obnoxious purpose. And I do, in all honesty, feel that the apparent attempt to re-open the division of assets is manipulative. Plus, if these guys have status that would make people listen, it would be far better devoted to making the agreed plan work.

Brennans Row wrote: »

Incidentally the map of Shannon is taken form a German school textbook, we must have been doing something right if they are using it as an example of industrial development.

I'd say it depends on the context. Despite appearances, I really don't want to get locked into a negative discussion. But there are other parts to the Shannon narrative that rarely get aired; at virtually every stage of its development there have been costs and problems pushed on to the wider community.

When the airport was first built, there were significant IR issues around the pay and conditions of workers. The actual useful period of the airport was quite short - maybe a decade. I'm not sure it's ever been clearly established that this period actually repaid the original investment.

On into the fifties, and the start of the Shannon Development period, and we get an array of incentives intended to promote terminating passenger traffic and a cargo hub. The tax reliefs are successive in attracting FDI - but it doesn't go unnoticed that the firms locating in the region aren't actually generating that much air traffic.

Despite this, and despite furious lobbying by US airlines wanting to start routes into Ireland (but not to Shannon), the idea of Shannon as the transatlantic gateway is persisted with; in other words, the Stopover is maintained through the sixties and seventies despite plain evidence that its retarding national development.

On Shannon as an example of a planned town, is it fair to say you're leaving out some of the detail in the phrasing about "people from all over Ireland". Shannon did draw an amount of people fleeing from Northern Ireland. I think Shannon Town Council has the distinction of being the only place, North or South, to elect a member of the Irish Republican Socialist Party (the political wing of the Irish National Liberation Army, for the benefit of younger folk). I'm not sure how much of that reality made it's way into that German textbook.

Even as an example of industrial development, it wasn't that striking a success. Generally, the Mid West region is found to produce about 7.5% of national output with 8.5% of the workforce. That kind of statistic can mean less than it seems; but the point is there's no sign of Shannon Development having created some gem from it's efforts, or of the airport delivering some remarkable economic success even within the region.

And, again, all that is terrifically negative and dismissive and I really don't want to be either. I'd much rather say that gifting local airport management a free airport gives Shannon an opportunity to grow again. I'd rather not have to qualify that by mentioning how often they've had opportunities in the past, or how transitory the benefits seem to have been.

I'd say the first step is accepting the deal, and forgetting about it. The job is getting business for the airport; and possibly wider than that, as isn't it really about the airport becoming an asset in getting business for the region.

Brennans Row

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

. . . I really don't want to get locked into a negative discussion. . .

Rereading your posts I can only conclude that your overall perspective on Shannon (Airport, Regional Development Agency, Town) is a negative one.

I see it more positively.

Looking back I think the regional development experiment was very beneficial on a national level.

It showed our over-centralised government in Dublin that we can decentralise policies of economic development to the regions.

There were a few OECD reports in the 1980s that objectively evaluated its achievements and its short comings.

But for me personally, it was their 1960s pioneering spirit, that rubbed off positively on many people that contributed to a can-do-attitude in our country.

That was and still is simply inspiring.

As for the IRSP in Shannon (akin to the RAF in Germany), my memory of them in Limerick in the late 1970s was a group of Dublin far left intellectuals attempting to infiltrate our small anti-nuclear meetings.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brennans Row wrote: »

Rereading your posts I can only conclude that your overall perspective on Shannon (Airport, Regional Development Agency, Town) is a negative one.

I see it more positively.

And I'm not especially saying there were no positives in the experience. Simply that there are significant elements involved that aren't caught in many accounts.

Brennans Row wrote: »

It showed our over-centralised government in Dublin that we can decentralise policies of economic development to the regions.

But did it? Bear in mind, part of the recent change is to unambiguously vest responsibility for promotion of industry in the Shannon region in Enterprise Ireland and IDA. And that doesn't seem to be opposed locally, suggesting some kind of a sea change.

Just to be clear - I'm not at all opposed to local government bodies taking on real responsibilities. I'm just pointing to the practicalities of what this experience tells us. The chief lesson learned from Shannon was the extent to which FDI would be attracted by a tax break - that was learned from noticing that the firms setting up didn't actually have a heavy need for an airport. That experience was the start of the close linkage between tax incentives and industrial development, right up to today. With the regional tax break gone, on account of EU rules, there's no longer a clear logic for Shannon Development.

Brennans Row wrote: »

As for the IRSP in Shannon (akin to the RAF in Germany), my memory of them in Limerick in the late 1970s was a group of Dublin far left intellectuals attempting to infiltrate our small anti-nuclear meetings.

Brigid Makowski was a Dub? Did anyone tell her that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid_Makowski

Brigid Makowski (née Sheils) from the Bogside in Derry, Northern Ireland, is a former member of Shannon Town Commission and Clare County Council. She was elected initially representing the Irish Republican Socialist Party of which she was a founding member.

lockman

So tonight is the night - independence from midnight tonight (31/12/2012).

The very best of luck to all at the airport: I hope they make a success of this opportunity.

Pumpkinseeds

I really hope that they do make a success of the airport soon or it will die. I went to collect my husband at arrivals on the 28th at 9pm. The flight was delayed so I bought a magazine, thinking that I could have a coffee while I waited. The coffee shop was closed as was the bar. The only things open were WH Smiths and a couple of car hire desks. I was shocked and saddened to see what has become of what is supposedly an international airport.

lockman

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I really hope that they do make a success of the airport soon or it will die. I went to collect my husband at arrivals on the 28th at 9pm. The flight was delayed so I bought a magazine, thinking that I could have a coffee while I waited. The coffee shop was closed as was the bar. The only things open were WH Smiths and a couple of car hire desks. I was shocked and saddened to see what has become of what is supposedly an international airport.

I too had a similar experience over the holidays - collected on the 22nd and dropped off for departure on the 30th. Iirc, Aer lingus said the 30th of Dec. was their busiest day all year across their entire route network yet Shannon was all but deserted when I dropped off (lunchtime flight).

Towards the end of the year there were a few encouraging reports emerging in the media:
- United to run a SNN-Chicago flight, five times per week during peak tourist season in 2013 (June-August).
- Us Airways to do daily SNN-Philadelphia from late May - early September.
- I believe Delta will be back from May - Sept/Oct with a daily JFK flight.
- The annual brief Jan-Mar Aer lingus break on transatlantic services ex SNN has been shortened such that T/A flights will now operate in/around St. Patrick's Day (which hasnt been the case for the past few years).

All the above should provide many additional seats at Shannon, and if used, will no doubt boost passenger numbers immensely.

In additon, Aer Lingus will operate a 3 times/week service ex SNN to Faro in the Algarve commencing in May, and one of the charter airlines has doubled capacity at SNN next year on summer services to Turkey.

Some good news there and hopefully more seats and services will be added in the coming year.

seachto7

Dropped a few off there on Monday evening around half five. It was like a ghost town. Not a sinner around....

Carazy

seachto7 wrote: »

Dropped a few off there on Monday evening around half five. It was like a ghost town. Not a sinner around....

I wouldn't expect Shannon Airport to become a buzzing hub just 8 days since being officially unattached to the DAA.

Here is the flight information timetable for the Airport if you want to arrive when there will be crowds http://www.shannonairport.com/gns/flight-information/arrivals.aspx

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Carazy wrote: »

I wouldn't expect Shannon Airport to become a buzzing hub just 8 days since being officially unattached to the DAA.

Here is the flight information timetable for the Airport if you want to arrive when there will be crowds http://www.shannonairport.com/gns/flight-information/arrivals.aspx

They've only twelve arrivals per day? Knock has eight; I never really took the comparison seriously before this.

http://www.irelandwestairport.com/flightinformation/live_flight_information.aspx

Carazy

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

[/URL]
They've only twelve arrivals per day? Knock has eight; I never really took the comparison seriously before this.

http://www.irelandwestairport.com/flightinformation/live_flight_information.aspx

No Shannon has lots more arrivals and departures per day compared to Knock. Shannon caters for the refueling of many cargo and passenger planes each day. Shannon also has facilities for maintenance and repainting of aircraft which Knock does not.
Simply saying that Knock has 4 arrivals less than Shannon is misleading.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Carazy wrote: »

Simply saying that Knock has 4 arrivals less than Shannon is misleading.

But, I take it, not if we're talking about passenger services, as in airlines actually offering flights to get you to and from that airport.

lockman

Confirmation of a decline in passenger numbers for 2012 at Shannon is provided in this report from thejournal.ie:
http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/shannon-passenger-numbers-750041-Jan2013/

Numbers for 2012 were down approx 14% on 2011 figures, with ~1.4 million passengers using the airport last year.

Sunny Disposition

The figures are really awful, terrible decline on 2011 which itself was an awful year. One of the local papers said it'd be the worst year since 88 and I think these figures bear it out. Rose Hynes said that when she got involved she found that airlines were interested in Shannon but wouldn't commit until after separation, hopefully will be some announcements on new routes, another year of decline would be disastrous, but there is some reason for optimism about 2013, two US routes announced already and more to Europe expected. Given that 2012 was the worst performance for nearly 25 years its possibly as bad as it's going to get.

lockman

From yesterday's Irish Times (18/01/2013), advert for a new CEO for the airport:

http://www.irishtimes.com/jobsboard/files/2013/01/3088751_shannonAirport.pdf

Shapey Fiend

Any time I was there last year it was a ghost town. The country has too many airports really. Hopefully they limp along for a few years till demand upticks again. I love the convenience of flying from Shannon. Going to London for the day is dead handy whereas if I go to Dublin I've to stay over the night before or get up at 3AM.

Brennans Row

Shannon should ‘review’ €2m costs of transatlantic emergencies (Limerick Leader)

Shannon Airport’s new management should review the high costs associated with the airport’s designation as a diversion airport for mechanical and medical emergencies over the North Atlantic, a government task force has recommended.

The Government’s acceptance of the task force’s view that Shannon’s cost base is too high has put trade unions on red alert but the report also examines other costs at the airport.

These include the cost of having emergency services on stand-by around the clock in case planes get into difficulty over the Atlantic, if passengers fall ill onboard and, in some cases, “air rage” incidents.

The Limerick Leader understands that the cost to the airport of having this cover in place stands at around €2 million annually.

In the final report of the aviation business development task force, chaired by Bord Gais chairman Rose Hynes, the effect of these costs on Shannon’s bottom line is questioned.

“Shannon is unique among the state airports in being open 24 hours per day, 365 days per year, as befits its status as a common diversion airport for aircraft encountering technical or medical emergencies over the Atlantic. This status also dictates the maintenance of an around-the-clock airport rescue and fire fighting service. These opening hours impose an additional cost burden,” the report states.

“Actual diversions are relatively infrequent and do not materially defray the costs of round-the-clock operation”.



Shannon Rescue (Fire & Rescue Services of Ireland)



Firecrews are scrambled to assist a KLM airliner which landed in Shannon with a technical emergency in July. (Limerick Leader)



August 2012 Flight Delta 245 Airbus A330 lands in Shannon on a medical emergency. A full emergency turnout required due to an overweight landing. (BrianGriffin)



November 2012 El Al Israel Airlines Boeing 747-458 on an emergency decent towards Shannon's RWY24 following unidentified smoke smell in the cabin whilst en-route from Tel Aviv to JFK. (Brian Griffin)

Shannon may be very well placed and equipped to act as a diversion airport for aircraft encountering technical or medical emergencies over the Atlantic. But who foots the bill for this 24/7/365 service?

Balagan

Well, great! Tús maith, leath na hoibre! Hardly a wet week in action and they're moving to scupper the few planes that actually HAVE to land at Shannon! Whatever the shortfall is left from the 2m after the actual diversions are paid for is a drop in the ocean compared to what is being paid to the multi-jobbing membership of the task force.

Carazy

Karachi to Shannon to the USA to commence three times a week.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056863155

Brennans Row

(Irish Examiner) The Shannon Airport Authority yesterday addressed the Oireachtas Committee on Transport and Communications on its future plans.

They confirmed plans to secure connectivity with another European hub other than Heathrow.

It is understood the authority is targeting a major German city with which to connect.

Of course Frankfurt Airport is Germany's main gateway to the world.

Though, I can't see much business travel been generated to Frankfurt's banking district from the west of Ireland.

The U.S. Army is based in the region around Frankfurt, but again I can't see any synergies happening here with the U.S. Immigration facilities in Shannon.

Düsseldorf Airport would be in my opinion the ideal destination for Shannon.

Firstly, the Rhine-Ruhr metropolitan region has a population of some 15 million.

It borders with the Netherlands and Belgium.

Great potential here for business / tourist travel in both directions.

Incidentally Düsseldorf International is a public–private partnership with the following owners:

• 50% Landeshauptstadt (Federalstate Capital City) Düsseldorf
• 50% Airport Partners GmbH (Ownership of Airport Partners GmbH: 40% Hochtief AirPort GmbH, 20% Hochtief AirPort Capital KGaA, 40% DublinAirport Authority plc (through its wholly owned subsidiary Aer Rianta International cpt))

JDunphy

They really need to get ryanair back, or get easyjet in.

Mr. G

JDunphy wrote: »

They really need to get ryanair back, or get easyjet in.

Ryanair are in shannon. Easyjet are in belfast but not in roi.

Brennans Row

JDunphy wrote: »

They really need to get ryanair back, or get easyjet in.

This was raised too yesterday, (Irish Examiner) Senator Pascal Mooney asked Ms Hynes about her plans to attract more European visitors in Shannon, making the point that despite its “fraught relationship” with the airport, the low cost carrier Ryanair would be a key driver for bringing more people into Ireland.

“Ryanair is still an important customer of Shannon. We have a very good relationship with Ryanair and we are in discussion with Ryanair as well as a number of other airlines. We will be seeking to increase passenger numbers in Shannon, both inbound and outbound.

“We don’t intend to accept unsustainable growth with Ryanair. That was an issue in the past and we’re not going to go there again, we have to learn from the problems of the past.

dr.fuzzenstein

Brennans Row wrote: »

“We don’t intend to accept unsustainable growth with Ryanair. That was an issue in the past and we’re not going to go there again, we have to learn from the problems of the past.

Yeah, like the airport being overrun with passengers.:rolleyes:

Akrasia

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yeah, like the airport being overrun with passengers.:rolleyes:

Hey, they do have 11 whole routes. Up there with Ennis bus station

Brennans Row

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yeah, like the airport being overrun with passengers.:rolleyes:

Could you tell me what Shannon Airport earned or lost per passenger with Ryanair during that period?

(SundayBusiness Post). . . .

Of course, Shannon already has its own bitter experience.

At the end of 2004 Ryanair was hailed as the saviour of Shannon Airport.

It was estimated that it would generate €50 million in revenue and bring 10 million passengers through the airport over the following five years.

The deal did see a big rise in passengers but did not translate into a healthy long-term future.

Ryanair availed of an extremely generous incentive discount scheme offered by the airport.

Under that scheme, Ryanair was granted a heavily discounted €0.50 per passenger charge.

This compared to an average landing charge of €7.50.

On top of that it was able to avail of a marketing support scheme, which meant the airport paid Ryanair €2 per passenger onspecific routes.

Effectively Ryanair was being paid €1.50 by Shannon for each one of its passengers.

When that deal ran out, Ryanair was quick to move a lot of capacity to nearby Kerry and Knock airports, partially explaining the traffic collapse detailed above. . . .

irishbloke77

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yeah, like the airport being overrun with passengers.:rolleyes:

Yes, more passengers. However, as each passenger COST the airport 1.50, it means the airport was "overrun" with costs.

More passengers does not automatically mean loads of cash for shannon.

dr.fuzzenstein

Running an airport is not like running a sweetshop.
There are more considerations here than purely the airport's bottom line.
It's a vital piece of infrastructure that brings tourists, business travellers, cargo and connectivity for businesses. The effect the airport has on the region goes way beyond the airport itself, one has to think regional, i.e. outside the confines of one's own begging bowl and screw everyone and everything else.
I can only hope that the new management understands that, because anyone who says that the sole motivation of running the airport is the bottom line should not be put in charge of opening a tin of dog food with a pull tab that's already open.
I cannot understand that sick kind of profit thinking prevelant in Ireland, I'm amazed you have schools, hospitals and libraries here, since they don't turn a profit, why not shut them down?

golfball37

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Running an airport is not like running a sweetshop.
There are more considerations here than purely the airport's bottom line.
It's a vital piece of infrastructure that brings tourists, business travellers, cargo and connectivity for businesses. The effect the airport has on the region goes way beyond the airport itself, one has to think regional, i.e. outside the confines of one's own begging bowl and screw everyone and everything else.
I can only hope that the new management understands that, because anyone who says that the sole motivation of running the airport is the bottom line should not be put in charge of opening a tin of dog food with a pull tab that's already open.
I cannot understand that sick kind of profit thinking prevelant in Ireland, I'm amazed you have schools, hospitals and libraries here, since they don't turn a profit, why not shut them down?

They are slowly being shut down now also.