Shannon Airport (Feb 2012 - Jan 2014)

highlydebased

Ryanair are not the solution. A more balanced approach is needed. I think lessons have been learned from the last time.

dr.fuzzenstein

highlydebased wrote: »

Ryanair are not the solution. A more balanced approach is needed. I think lessons have been learned from the last time.

But it would be nice to have a route to Germany.
Does anyone here know how many flights are going from Shannon to Germany?
That's right, zero, zip, zilch, nada, none.
The last time I used Shannon was maybe 2006, in total I have used the airport maybe 5 times since 1993.
And I don't fancy going via Stanstead either, I'd pay twice the fare, my journey would take twice as long, if my first flight was delayed through Ryanair's fault, they would tell me to fcuk off, etc...
For as long as I have been living here, I've been using Dublin and sometimes Kerry and the same goes for all my friends, family, any other Germans.
Clare is shutting itself off from a vast market of tourists who (and I can confirm this) are absolutely crazy about Ireland and are now routed into other parts of the country, it's insanity.
All this "Fcuk Ryanair" chanting is simply fiddling whilst Rome is burning.
Yes, you can all hold your head up high, thump your chest and with a big grin proclaim "We never wanted that bollix here anyway", all this whilst the County is slowly shutting down.
Clare at this stage is nothing more than a housing estate and car park that services Galway and Limerick, because the 25 jobs that exist here cannot be classed as an economy.

irishbloke77

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

But it would be nice to have a route to Germany.
Does anyone here know how many flights are going from Shannon to Germany?
That's right, zero, zip, zilch, nada, none.
The last time I used Shannon was maybe 2006, in total I have used the airport maybe 5 times since 1993.
And I don't fancy going via Stanstead either, I'd pay twice the fare, my journey would take twice as long, if my first flight was delayed through Ryanair's fault, they would tell me to fcuk off, etc...
For as long as I have been living here, I've been using Dublin and sometimes Kerry and the same goes for all my friends, family, any other Germans.
Clare is shutting itself off from a vast market of tourists who (and I can confirm this) are absolutely crazy about Ireland and are now routed into other parts of the country, it's insanity.
All this "Fcuk Ryanair" chanting is simply fiddling whilst Rome is burning.
Yes, you can all hold your head up high, thump your chest and with a big grin proclaim "We never wanted that bollix here anyway", all this whilst the County is slowly shutting down.
Clare at this stage is nothing more than a housing estate and car park that services Galway and Limerick, because the 25 jobs that exist here cannot be classed as an economy.

Where in Gods name do I start with this one?

First of all, be careful how you slag off Clare. Your rant about Clare being a "housing estate and carpark that services Limerick and Galway" is close to being insulting and very hurtful to people from there. I live there, but am not originally from here. I find it a lovely place to live, friendly and full of the old fashion beliefs of helping your neighbour, mind the area, take pride in your locality. So please don't start on that.

Your knowledge, is a lot less insulting to me but, clearly demonstrates you have nothing else to do except try to start an argument. Clare could not keep an airport of this size going, it obviously does need Galway and Limerick to survive. However, most airports now also vie for the business of further afield also.

This thread is about an airport surviving or even prospering, not how much it brings into the surrounding areas. I agree that this item is important, but if the airport closes, what good is that to anyone. For example, look at Galway airport. Had a few routes with Aer Arann to mainly the UK, obviously wouldn't have interested you with your single vision of Germany, but was used quite regularly by many people, including business people and tourists. It's not doing much good now to the local area is it? Shannon, in these troubled times, must be able to stand on its own too feet, and encouraging Ryanair to come in and COST the airport money, would not be welcomed by the majority of the countries taxpayers who are already concerned about the funding shannon got.

The view by most is that the taxpayer can not continue to subsidize airports, and rightly so, and so the airport must AT LEAST, break even financially. Ryanair doesn't do this to airports. Ryanair promised extra flights to all airports if the government tax was withdrawn. Even with a 70% reduction in the charge in some cases, Ryanair have not added an extra flight in shannon?

You say you won't go to Stansted as it doubles the cost of money and time. BUT you will get some form of transport to either Dublin or Kerry, does that not add both money and time to your journey?

Since the airport split up, there have been a few encouraging new airlines and routes announced. None to Germany though, Sorry.

Ryanair want to be effectly PAID to use Shannon airport. Would you think this is a wise move for any airport? Each passenger would cost the airport 1.50 under Ryanairs agreements, so why would the airport want to lose money. As a taxpayer, I don't want to subside it, it should stand on its own 2 feet and get routes that are good for the long term position of the airport and then hence the surrounding areas.

RANT OVER.

dr.fuzzenstein

I never slagged Clare for not being a lovely spot and I have nothing against the people. My point was that people seem to take pride in the fact that "we didn't give in to that O'Leary feller" and so on. Whislt being led around by the nose by outside interests and never catching on to it. My point is that jobs are scarce in Clare and I have pretty much always worked Limerick based jobs for the last 10 years. Hence my housing estate remark. You can live here, but you can't work here, unless you work in the civil service or a B&B.
I didn't start the Ryanair argument, but I believe that the airport and the region, whilst also being host to other airlines and cargo, needs the European business. And I will argue that till I'm blue in the face, because I believe Clare has a lot of potential and it is being wasted.
And of course a lot of Clare people don't like some filthy foreigner telling them that.
Everyone says "Ah sure, we'll find someone else, we don't need that bollix" as a point of pride, but decades of searching has provided us with zero viable alternatives as far as European carriers are concerned. There is a few Ryanair and charter flights to the UK and some holiday destinations, but no European routes that I or anyone could describe as viable or even as a serious attempt.
As for the Stanstead thing:
If you book a "connection" with Ryanair, if your first flight is delayed due to Ryanair's fault, they will tell you to fcuk off and buy another ticket. Waiting time in Stanstead is at least 4 hours. You will have to buy two flights and pay two lots of taxes and charges. Suddenly your E100 flight has more than doubled in price. There is no baggage transfer and you have to sit on your bags for that time. Flying via Stanstead, you'd want a lobotomy to do that.
It is faster, cheaper and easier to drive to Dublin and fly from there. Direct. The idea to fly via Stanstead doesn't seem to have caught on, judging by what a graveyard Shannon is.
I don't have a single vision for Germany, I also would like to fly to France, Italy, Switzerland, Autria, etc...
Still pretty slim pickings there.
The evidence is screaming people in the face, as a European airport Shannon is a complete failure and a disaster. Of course this will have suited the DAA, because they would want all the business and the tourists for the Dublin region.
Funny how so many Ryanair flights (Airport poison, according to some) seem to fly to Dublin from all over Europe, funny how Dublin Airport is not collapsing under debt, funny how the vast majority of tourists are flying to Dublin and staying there, funny how so many people here are actively hostile to the idea, what's the agenda?
I argue my point because I passionately believe in it and because I believe Clare deserves better and that the region has been short-changed by outside interests, who in the last few years have been very successful in running Shannon into the ground and seeding fear into people's minds about the only logical step to take.
Airport parking charges alone will make this airport profitable, then there's transatlantic business, cargo, car hire and so on.
I'm pretty sure with all the above the airport will manage just fine.
I believe we may all disagree on Ryanair, but I'm sure we can all agree that it can't go on the way it does and something will have to change. I'm only to happy to argue my point, but I'm not doing it for the fun of it.

Shapey Fiend

What are Kerry airport offering Ryanair that Shannon couldn't? Losing 1.50 per passenger isn't necessarily the case. Anybody passing through is likely to spend a few quid in the place. They've to pay for parking etc.

Ryanair effectively have a monopoly on budget travel these days. This is a really bad thing but there's no changing it unless some better ran alternatives take back market share. I don't see how Shannon can hope to manage without it. They should really go negotiate a new deal and try match what the other airports are doing.

Clareman

I've flown out of Shannon airport and awful lot of times in my life and I think 1 of the important things to remember about Shannon that the likes of Kerry and Knock don't have to worry about is that Shannon is a freight hub, a service centre and also a transatlantic airport. Whereas footfall is extremely important each part of the business has to be making money for it to be sustainable, you can't sacrifice losing money in 1 area to hope to recover it in others.

IMVHO, what Shannon needs to do is leverage it's position to the US and it's pre-clearance as well as look into what other hubs in Europe we can connect with, there were a lot of people home from Australia at Christmas and I was amazed how many of them were travelling from Dublin cause it was easier. I do have the faith of the management of the airport though and I think in a few years we'll look back at threads like this to remember how bleak things looked

dr.fuzzenstein

Clareman wrote: »

I've flown out of Shannon airport and awful lot of times in my life and I think 1 of the important things to remember about Shannon that the likes of Kerry and Knock don't have to worry about is that Shannon is a freight hub, a service centre and also a transatlantic airport. Whereas footfall is extremely important each part of the business has to be making money for it to be sustainable, you can't sacrifice losing money in 1 area to hope to recover it in others.

IMVHO, what Shannon needs to do is leverage it's position to the US and it's pre-clearance as well as look into what other hubs in Europe we can connect with, there were a lot of people home from Australia at Christmas and I was amazed how many of them were travelling from Dublin cause it was easier. I do have the faith of the management of the airport though and I think in a few years we'll look back at threads like this to remember how bleak things looked

Many businesses do work on that exact model, offer something at a price that won't make money, but gets people in the door. You're right, footfall is extremely important, things like shops, restaurants, hotels at the airport, car hire, car parking, to name but a few are an important source of revenue for the airport.
It's true, no airport makes money on Ryanair alone, it's more associated business, the same way Ryanair doesn't make money on the actual fare itself, but on all the extras they sneak in.
But in the end we'll just have to wait and see what they're going to do with the place and how things pan out.
Of course Ryanair should not be the sole focus, transatlantic and cargo are also vital to the area.

irishbloke77

Shapey Fiend wrote: »

What are Kerry airport offering Ryanair that Shannon couldn't? Losing 1.50 per passenger isn't necessarily the case. Anybody passing through is likely to spend a few quid in the place. They've to pay for parking etc

That's the point, Ryanair passengers were spending a lot less per passenger and not making up the 1.50 each. People were being dropped off at the airport instead of parking there, they were bringing their own sandwiches instead of buying at the airport.
Even the simple item of being able to print your own boarding pass at home means you spend less time at the airport when you MAY have spent money there.

I do agree that shannon needs passengers, and in the good old Celtic tiger days, people didn't mind paying for 2 weeks parking whilst on holidays, or getting a meal before the flight, or maybe even staying the night before at the airport hotel.
These days people are spending a lot less. They are buying the flight and not wanting to spend a lot more on top of that.

irishbloke77

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I never slagged Clare for not being a lovely spot and I have nothing against the people. My point was that people seem to take pride in the fact that "we didn't give in to that O'Leary feller" and so on. Whislt being led around by the nose by outside interests and never catching on to it. My point is that jobs are scarce in Clare and I have pretty much always worked Limerick based jobs for the last 10 years. Hence my housing estate remark. You can live here, but you can't work here, unless you work in the civil service or a B&B.
..........
I don't have a single vision for Germany, I also would like to fly to France, Italy, Switzerland, Autria, etc...
Still pretty slim pickings there.
The evidence is screaming people in the face, as a European airport Shannon is a complete failure and a disaster. Of course this will have suited the DAA, because they would want all the business and the tourists for the Dublin region.
Funny how so many Ryanair flights (Airport poison, according to some) seem to fly to Dublin from all over Europe, funny how Dublin Airport is not collapsing under debt, funny how the vast majority of tourists are flying to Dublin and staying there, funny how so many people here are actively hostile to the idea, what's the agenda?

I live in Clare and also work here, AND NOT IN A B&B OR IN THE CIVIL SERVICE, so that generalization is pure nonsense.

As for Dublin, Ryanair is not the only airline serving Dublin. They have other airlines competing on some Ryanair routes. If ryanair doesn't like the DAA terms, they don't have to fly there but they will because they know they will get the numbers through Dublin. Dublin airport is NOT paying 1.50 per ryanair passenger to fly out.

Also, just for the record, Shannon has flights to Austria, France and other european countries during the summer months also. However, it would be better for all involved if there was more.

I do believe, like you, that shannon does need extra passengers, that's obvious. The place is like a ghost town at times. But surely the best plan is to get airlines in that add numbers that doesn't cost the airport.

I don't know where you get the idea that its clare people who are being "dragged around by the nose" shouting they didn't give in to that "bollix". Shannon is of importance to Limerick just as much if not more than clare, as a lot of people in shannon are from limerick.

If Ryanair is so holy and almighty, why did they not stay with the routes they had in shannon? They didn't give a toss about the local economy when they pulled out, it was all about the bottom line on the accounts. That's what shannon has to watch for first, the bottom line, in order to survive and then hopefully prosper.

highlydebased

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

But it would be nice to have a route to Germany.
Does anyone here know how many flights are going from Shannon to Germany?
That's right, zero, zip, zilch, nada, none.
The last time I used Shannon was maybe 2006, in total I have used the airport maybe 5 times since 1993.

I'm sure airlines other than Ryanair operate in Germany!

dr.fuzzenstein

highlydebased wrote: »

I'm sure airlines other than Ryanair operate in Germany!

Why, yes. Yes, they do indeed. Loads of the little blighters, sometimes you can't move for airlines.
My point however was how many flights there are from Shannon to Germany and the answer is still none.
Meaning that all those lovely airlines whizzing back and forth in Germany do me a fat lot of good when I want to fly from Shannon to Germany.
In fact, if the Airport doesn't like Ryanair, they should attract some other airline to take over the European business.
In fact they have been trying to do that since before Ryanair.
I remember Virgin Express, sadly gone, I remember the famous Paris instead of London hub deal, never came to be, I'm sure there was some other airline (I think it was British Midlands operating a codeshare with BA) and this has been going on since the 90's.
In fact the only airline operating European routes that has made the most serious offers and had the most consistent presence there is Ryanair.
In the end we will have to see what happens at the airport, maybe it's not destined to serve European destinations in a big way.
I do realise that most Irish people think of the rest of the world in terms of the English speaking world, UK, North America, Australia, New Zealand and everything else is just decoration.
But mainland Europe has a lot of business to offer and a lot of eager tourists, so it would be great if they could get anyone. I'm not fixated in Ryanair, there are other airlines, but none of them has been interested in the last 20 years. Maybe that's about to change.
In short, I have high hopes for the new management, they will make a decision based on what they believe is right and whatever we say might be all well and good in terms of a lively and healthy discussion, but it's not our decision to make, so let's hope for the future of the airport and the region.
Things can only get better.

Henry Ford III

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Why, yes. Yes, they do indeed. Loads of the little blighters, sometimes you can't move for airlines.
My point however was how many flights there are from Shannon to Germany and the answer is still none.
Meaning that all those lovely airlines whizzing back and forth in Germany do me a fat lot of good when I want to fly from Shannon to Germany.
In fact, if the Airport doesn't like Ryanair, they should attract some other airline to take over the European business.
In fact they have been trying to do that since before Ryanair.
I remember Virgin Express, sadly gone, I remember the famous Paris instead of London hub deal, never came to be, I'm sure there was some other airline (I think it was British Midlands operating a codeshare with BA) and this has been going on since the 90's.
In fact the only airline operating European routes that has made the most serious offers and had the most consistent presence there is Ryanair.
In the end we will have to see what happens at the airport, maybe it's not destined to serve European destinations in a big way.
I do realise that most Irish people think of the rest of the world in terms of the English speaking world, UK, North America, Australia, New Zealand and everything else is just decoration.
But mainland Europe has a lot of business to offer and a lot of eager tourists, so it would be great if they could get anyone. I'm not fixated in Ryanair, there are other airlines, but none of them has been interested in the last 20 years. Maybe that's about to change.
In short, I have high hopes for the new management, they will make a decision based on what they believe is right and whatever we say might be all well and good in terms of a lively and healthy discussion, but it's not our decision to make, so let's hope for the future of the airport and the region.
Things can only get better.

Perhaps not enough people want to fly to Germany ex Shannon? "Field of Dreams" thinking apart maybe the demand isn't and won't be there?

Brennans Row

To ignore the German market would be our greatest folly.

After Britain, they are probably our next most important trading partner in the EU.

Business people based in Munster / Connaught need a regular service to Germany and also vice-versa.

Shannon always had been active in attracting German tourists to Ireland, mainly through charter flights (Hapag Lloyd) in the 1970's, 80's and 90's.

They were replaced by budget airlines like HLX, Ryanair.

In my opinion there is today, a two-way tourist market between Ireland and Germany.

Brennans Row

Brennans Row wrote: »

Business people based in Munster / Connaught need a regular service to Germany and also vice-versa.

The people of Connaught just use the Knock - Dusseldorf service with Lufthansa.:)

Ryanair were also doing the Knock - Frankfurt route last year. I don't think there was demand for both German routes, so it is now down to one. Nice boost in tourist number though.

Cork airport also have flights to Munich. So it looks like both Connaught and Munster is served with flights to Germany. The population in this whole region is relatively tiny, i think people may be overestimating the demand required. If there was demand there would be additional flights.

I'm surprised that regular flights from SNN and Knock to Poland are not available, considering the polish population base here.

dr.fuzzenstein

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Perhaps not enough people want to fly to Germany ex Shannon? "Field of Dreams" thinking apart maybe the demand isn't and won't be there?

You're thinking the wrong way around, what we want is "ze Germans" coming over here and hopefully spending a bit of dosh.;)
Well, in the end we have all pretty much made ever conceivable argument for and against, we might agree or disagree, but in the end we'll just have to wait and see what will happen.

Brennans Row

Deleted User wrote: »

The people of Connaught just use the Knock - Dusseldorf service with Lufthansa.:)

Ryanair were also doing the Knock - Frankfurt route last year. I don't think there was demand for both German routes, so it is now down to one. Nice boost in tourist number though.

Cork airport also have flights to Munich. So it looks like both Connaught and Munster is served with flights to Germany. The population in this whole region is relatively tiny, i think people may be overestimating the demand required. If there was demand there would be additional flights.

Apparently Shannon intends to target those passengers that travel to / from Germany via Dublin.

This would be interesting to any passenger within a 90 minute drive of Shannon airport.

As for the German market, there are eleven large urban metropolitan regions of which you only mentioned two.

Clareman

I think it's important to remember that in the past all the management of the airport were interested in doing was flying to the States from Shannon, any other flights were going out of Cork or Dublin, now that was can compete with those airports I'm sure we'll see a lot of new routes opening up

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brennans Row wrote: »

Apparently Shannon intends to target those passengers that travel to / from Germany via Dublin.

Unfortunate, as there is zero national gain from such a strategy, even if it succeeds.

Clareman wrote: »

I think it's important to remember that in the past all the management of the airport were interested in doing was flying to the States from Shannon, any other flights were going out of Cork or Dublin, now that was can compete with those airports I'm sure we'll see a lot of new routes opening up

Hopefully the new management will find new routes that bring extra traffic to the country. However, surely the "US only" focus is long in the past; didn't the 2005 deal with Ryanair reflect an attempt to open new routes to Europe?

Again, I'm not arguing with the strategy, or with the possibility of the new structure encouraging the development of new business. It's just necessary to recall that, for at least seven years, the intention of developing European routes was there. The Ryanair deal was intended to be the thing that would ultimately enable the Shannon Airport Authority to become independent of the DAA.

Rose Hynes, the new Shannon Airport Chair, has reflected this fact in her comments about the need to seek sustainable growth in passenger services.

Brennans Row

Brennans Row wrote: »

Apparently Shannon intends to target those passengers that travel to / from Germany via Dublin.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Unfortunate, as there is zero national gain from such a strategy, even if it succeeds.

I don’t understand, would you elaborate on that by giving examples.

ger664

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Unfortunate, as there is zero national gain from such a strategy, even if it succeeds.

Transfer of some economic funds to the mid-west region would be the upside.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brennans Row wrote: »

I don’t understand, would you elaborate on that by giving examples.

I don't mean anything oblique - its what's implicit in Ger664's post.

If Shannon just attracts passengers from Dublin, then there is no addition to the number of tourists coming to Ireland, and no increase in tourist spend in Ireland (just picking tourists as one class of passenger; I'm not suggesting that only tourists fly.)

If, on the other hand, Shannon was attracting passengers who (for the sake of argument) would otherwise go to Portugal to learn surfing, then there would be a net gain for Ireland. We'd be getting visitors who would otherwise be spending their money in Portugal.

Brennans Row

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Unfortunate, as there is zero national gain from such a strategy, even if it succeeds.

She intends targeting Irish business people, Irish tourists, Irish students, German ex-pats from the Shannon region who would generally travel to Germany via Dublin airport.

Obviously there would be a national economic saving of time, money and resources if they could directly fly from Shannon airport.

Reciprocally German business people, German tourists, German students, Irish ex-pats from Germany who intend coming to the Shannon region would also save time, money and resources if they had a direct flight to Shannon airport.

If anything, too much resources been sucked into our over centralized capital resulting in an extreme national economic imbalance.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brennans Row wrote: »

Obviously there would be a national economic saving of time, money and resources if they could directly fly from Shannon airport.

I'd say it a little differently. Shannon will only attract flights if it can generate a saving of time, money and resources for someone.

Brennans Row wrote: »

If anything, too much resources been sucked into our over centralized capital resulting in an extreme national economic imbalance.

I don't see where that discussion fits into this one (which is why I'm not asking what national economic balance would look like); surely Shannon is the prime example of where the State prioritised regional development over any other concern .

Brennans Row

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'd say it a little differently. Shannon will only attract flights if it can generate a saving of time, money and resources for someone.

To be honest, I find your reply too vague, I’m just not getting your little point of difference?

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

surely Shannon is the prime example of where the State prioritised regional development over any other concern .

To answer that, one would want to revisit Sean Lemass’s concerns of the 1950s where 400,000 people emigrated and the economic policies he prioritised to solve them.

lockman

Carazy wrote: »

Karachi to Shannon to the USA to commence three times a week.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056863155

Confirmation of PIA's interest in using Shannon, as reported earlier by Carazy.

http://www.clareherald.com/2013/01/pakistan-international-airlines.html?m=1


Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) has indicated its intention to operate three times weekly through Shannon Airport, reports Pat Flynn.

The airline is seeking tenders for the provision of ground handling services at mid-west airport with the intention of operating three transit flights a week although no date has been confirmed.

While PIA are understood to have applied to both the Irish and US authorities to operate the proposed flights, no decision has yet been made by either Government.

The airline plans to have it's Karachi to New York JFK service stop in Shannon three times a week. The airline attempted to implement a similar arrangement in 1999 however the plan was later abandoned.

There was speculation last year that the airline was considering a transit stop at Shannon and while nothing has been family agreed, seeking tenders is the first clear indication that the airline wants to use Shannon.

It's also understood that PIA had also been looking at Dublin Airport as a possible option for the transit stops.

The airline is seeking tenders for "Turnaround and Transit handling Charges". The tender document confirms that PIA plans to "operate 3 transit flights a week with Boeing 777 aircraft."

The tender states: "This contract will be for 3 years with a standard 60 days exit clause, with no condition on termination."

It's expected that PIA will use the Shannon stopover to take on fuel and catering and possibly for crew changes. The airline will probably want to avail of US's Customs and Border Protection (CBP) pre-clearance facility at Shannon.

The unit was first in the world, outside of the Americas, to offer full US Customs and CBP pre-clearance facilities to passengers travelling to the US.

British Airways is the only airline using Shannon as a stopover for this reason, operating two business class flights daily between London City and New York via Shannon.

However, Russia's second largest airline is seeking to operate flights between Moscow and Miami using Shannon as a stopover.

Transaero is also awaiting a decision on an application to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in the US for 'fifth freedom rights'.

Ireland already has a Bilateral Air Transport Agreement with Russia allowing Transaero which would allow the airline operate between Shannon and Miami.

The new independent Shannon Airport Authority (SAA) has already indicated it's intention to boost passenger numbers by targeting both terminal and transit traffic.

SAA chair Ms Rose Hynes reiterated this when she addressed the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport and Communications earlier this week.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brennans Row wrote: »

To answer that, one would want to revisit Sean Lemass’s concerns of the 1950s where 400,000 people emigrated and the economic policies he prioritised to solve them.

To do it justice, I'd say we'd have to take an even wider view to bracket matter between the ambitions of the newly independent Irish State, and how they amounted to what Tom Garvin described as "preventing the future", to understand why the special concessions given to Shannon were only finally ended because of international commitments - US in the case of the stopover regime, and EU in respect of the tax regime. But that would drag the thread well off course, and I'm sure we both want to avoid that.

Brennans Row wrote: »

To be honest, I find your reply too vague, I’m just not getting your little point of difference?

Not a bother. I'll try an illustrative example.

I've no idea exactly how many German/Irish flights there are at present. But, just for our purposes, lets assume that the starting point was that Cork Airport had flights to Hamburg and Frankfurt, and all other airports had none. Shannon enters the market and, rather than trying to find some other market to enter (say, flights to Italy), it decides the simplest thing to do is to try and nudge one of Cork's German services in its direction.

Lets even say that Shannon calculates that half of the passengers arriving from Germany on each of the present flights travel on from Cork to the MidWest. So they reckon that there's a potential benefit for those passengers arriving in Shannon, rather than Cork.

However, this ignores the journey folk make to the airport in Germany. It might make more sense for someone in Hamburg to board a flight to Cork, and travel for two hours to get to Ennis (say) than from them to travel four hours to get to Frankfurt to board a flight that lands in Shannon. And if the situation is that Cork can support two flights to Germany, where Shannon might only support one, it might actually mean that the best way of connecting Ennis to Germany is through Cork.

Now, you'll appreciate, all that example is intended to do is illustrate the kind of point I'm getting at. I don't intend, and I'm sure you don't either, to get lost in the minutiae of this example - when all it is intended to do is make the (hopefully) straightforward point I'm making crystal clear.

I think the more important point is that there's no real gain for the country from re-distributing a static amount of business. The real challenge is to attract more business in from abroad; that's why it is frankly discouraging to here the "Dublin" card being played so early in the game.

Tbh, I'd suspect the reference to Dublin is only to cloak that the real target is Knock Airport's Dusseldorf service. But the same point stands. There's no national benefit if Knock loses a flight, and Shannon gains one. I don't see how anyone could seriously pretend that there is a national benefit there.

Jim Martin

It was a mistake for the government to have allowed Cork to become an international airport (much to Shannon's detriment) - they should have concentrated their effort on Shannon as it is more centrally located for the Mid-West incl Galway!

Jim Martin

Jim Martin wrote: »

It was a mistake for the government to have allowed Cork to become an international airport (much to Shannon's detriment) - they should have concentrated their effort on Shannon as it is more centrally located for the Mid-West incl Galway!

Shannon doesn't really fit for the South or the West. Instead, If Shannon was originally positioned between Cork and Limerick, there would never of been a need for Kerry or Cork Airports. It would then have decent passenger numbers and routes and likely be a successful airport. But that would of been proper planning which does not happen in this country.

Nobody can deny that an airport in that geographical area would be doing better than the airports mentioned.

Brennans Row

GCU Flexible Demeanour, I must have a look at Tom Garvin's book "preventing the future".

I'm curious to read his appraisal of Shannon Airport and the Shannon Development Region in that context.

If you are to throw in catch phrases like “special concessions” or “stopover regime” then we need to discuss the thinking behind them in more detail.

I don't see this stuff dragging the thread off course.

On the contrary maybe we need to look deeper into the Irish aviation business.

I get your point from your illustration (if not academic), however you should look closer at the practical data from Shannon’s catchment area, when weighing up the pros and cons of whether Shannon airport should have a German route or not.

Playing the “Dublin” card?

Well, the year ended for Shannon with 90 of its 100 Aer Lingus technical staff been transferred to Dublin airport.

That too is discouraging to see more Shannon aviation jobs been lost to Dublin.

You rightly oppose the Shannon stopover and favour an open skies policy.

However you can't then turn around and make a case against competition between SAA and DAA on the German routes.

It’s quite legitimate now for Shannon to target those particular customers from its region who use Dublin airport.

It would be interesting to know what co-operation exists between all the other airports operating along the Atlantic Corridor as there are/were nine in all trying to deliver a service.

• Derry Airport
• Donegal Airport
• Sligo Airport
• Knock Airport
• Galway Airport
• Shannon Airport
• Kerry Airport
• Cork Airport
• Waterford Airport

Brennans Row

Brennans Row wrote: »

GCU Flexible Demeanour, I must have a look at Tom Garvin's book "preventing the future".

I'm curious to read his appraisal of Shannon Airport and the Shannon Development Region in that context.

If you are to throw in catch phrases like “special concessions” or “stopover regime” then we need to discuss the thinking behind them in more detail.

I don't see this stuff dragging the thread off course.

On the contrary maybe we need to look deeper into the Irish aviation business.

I get your point from your illustration (if not academic), however you should look closer at the practical data from Shannon’s catchment area, when weighing up the pros and cons of whether Shannon airport should have a German route or not.

Playing the “Dublin” card?

Well, the year ended for Shannon with 90 of its 100 Aer Lingus technical staff been transferred to Dublin airport.

That too is discouraging to see more Shannon aviation jobs been lost to Dublin.

You rightly oppose the Shannon stopover and favour an open skies policy.

However you can't then turn around and make a case against competition between SAA and DAA on the German routes.

It’s quite legitimate now for Shannon to target those particular customers from its region who use Dublin airport.

It would be interesting to know what co-operation exists between all the other airports operating along the Atlantic Corridor as there are/were nine in all trying to deliver a service.

• Derry Airport
• Donegal Airport
• Sligo Airport
• Knock Airport
• Galway Airport
• Shannon Airport
• Kerry Airport
• Cork Airport
• Waterford Airport

Are Sligo and Galway not closed to commercial flights since last year, and are now basically flying clubs ? I can't imagine Donegal delivers what anybody would call a service, flights to Dublin and Glasglow only!

Regarding German flights, i earlier omitted the Kerry - Frankfurt route. So that is routes to Munich, Dusseldorf and Frankfurt all currently available along the west coast.

Scandinavia and Holland appears to be an untapped market for the whole wider region !