France V Ireland – Stade de France, Paris. Sunday 4th March 15:00 RTE2 & BBC2

Seph503

leftleg wrote: »

Farrelly alert

Half-backs

Eoin Reddan was pushing hard for the scrum-half slot, but Conor Murray's quality is not in question and, if he gets good ball to work with, the Patrickswell man can dominate Morgan Parra and mix it with the French back-row.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/irish-news/i-never-see-it-as-just-picking-the-same-team-kidney-3036705.html

The dominating Parra is equally incredible.

leftleg

We all have to get paid but its his absolute wretched impartiality that gets my goat; just like Thornley on Newstalk; when asked about dubious Kidney selections; he absolutely wont at any time say tin any way that Kidney has it wrong;

Its like poor Alex boy in A Clockwork Orange; Thornley id programmed not to say anything bad about Kidney and Farrelly just permanently sets off troll alerts with every piece. Bad journalism.

Seph503

leftleg wrote: »

We all have to get paid but its his absolute wretched impartiality that gets my goat; just like Thornley on Newstalk; when asked about dubious Kidney selections; he absolutely wont at any time say tin any way that Kidney has it wrong;

Its like poor Alex boy in A Clockwork Orange; Thornley id programmed not to say anything bad about Kidney and Farrelly just permanently sets off troll alerts with every piece. Bad journalism.

I don't recall an occassion where Thornley has criticised and/or questioned Kidney. Sure if he did that he wouldn't get to announce the team before everyone else!!

leftleg

It seems that word of Hughs antics has already spread around.

I think i brought this up on boards a while ago after reading one of his wonderful little diatribs in the indo. Anyways others obviously felt the same.

http://www.balls.ie/2012/02/24/hugh-farrelly-to-internet-leave-tony-mcgahan-alone/

Fishooks12

Thornley is a top class journalist and he obviously knows the game inside out too

But I think he's too close to management to voice his critique properly

leftleg

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Thornley is a top class journalist and he obviously knows the game inside out too

But I think he's too close to management to voice his critique properly

Yep its much the same as Horgan on the panel; interesting to listen too but impartial due to his ties with players.

Also Kidney and his coaching.

Either way there is absolutely no excuse for some of his horrendous comments to get printed.

chris85

We have people that can mix it up with the backrow of France already, as in our own backrow who are well able.

Murray's decision making better improve this week. He was slow and unsure. He takes on too much ball himself. Again we have players to carry the ball all day (Healy, SOB, Heaslip, Ferris) so he doesnt need to run it so much. I understand we need to test their defence but doing it so often is not required.

CatFromHue

Deleted User wrote: »

doesn't get much easier than Clermont away alright

So Ian Whitten and Paddy Wallace should be starting for Ireland then

andrewdcs

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Thornley is a top class journalist and he obviously knows the game inside out too

But I think he's too close to management to voice his critique properly

At the risk of being 'arch' I think this typifies society in general though.
Once you get too close to the establishment of any structure, even to critique it, you tend to end up embedded within it....

Fireball07

fitz wrote: »

It is ridiculous, given that Henry has played far more at 7 than POM.
We don't need cover at 6, we need it at 7.
If either of Ferris or Heaslip had to come of, we move SOB in to replace them, and bring on the bench back-row at 7.
With Ryan on the bench, we also have extra cover at 6.
Henry makes a far more sensible bench option.

I disagree. I know Henry has played more there, but POM is also perfectly capable of playing extremely well there. Plus there's a 5-year age gap and POM has potential to be a genuinely top player. I'd have liked to see them both get a run tbh, but saying it is ridiculous is way over the top.

jm08

andrewdcs wrote: »

At the risk of being 'arch' I think this typifies society in general though.
Once you get too close to the establishment of any structure, even to critique it, you tend to end up embedded within it....

Getting close to the establishment is another way of saying 'having more information' or having a better understanding of the situation. Lets face it, he sees and hears more than anyone on here ever will.

thornley wasn't afraid of offending the irfu about their new policy on foreign players. he was very criticial of them and it.

fitz

Fireball07 wrote: »

I disagree. I know Henry has played more there, but POM is also perfectly capable of playing extremely well there. Plus there's a 5-year age gap and POM has potential to be a genuinely top player. I'd have liked to see them both get a run tbh, but saying it is ridiculous is way over the top.

Again, we're back to the whole experience thing.
If it doesn't matter that Henry has more experience there, why aren't superior but less experience players selected in other positions?

There's an inconsistency in selection criteria and standards applied to players available, and more often than not, Munster players get the nod.
I used to think that the Munster bias claims were a bit tin-foil hat brigade, but it's hard to argue against.

irishbucsfan

Fireball07 wrote: »

fitz wrote: »

It is ridiculous, given that Henry has played far more at 7 than POM.
We don't need cover at 6, we need it at 7.
If either of Ferris or Heaslip had to come of, we move SOB in to replace them, and bring on the bench back-row at 7.
With Ryan on the bench, we also have extra cover at 6.
Henry makes a far more sensible bench option.

I disagree. I know Henry has played more there, but POM is also perfectly capable of playing extremely well there. Plus there's a 5-year age gap and POM has potential to be a genuinely top player. I'd have liked to see them both get a run tbh, but saying it is ridiculous is way over the top.

Henry is far far better at the breakdown though and that is what people were complaining was the problem with the team.

I think it is ridiculous to say O'Mahoney is as good as Henry right now. I understand O'Mahoney has received much hype but he is not technically as good and that is absolutely key. His faults lie in the areas that will affect him most as a test 7.

Once O'Mahoney fills out a bit he will be the clear better player between the two. But that is over a season away.

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

Getting close to the establishment is another way of saying 'having more information' or having a better understanding of the situation. Lets face it, he sees and hears more than anyone on here ever will.

thornley wasn't afraid of offending the irfu about their new policy on foreign players. he was very criticial of them and it.

OK Gerry; we were wrong; your a great journalist

Fireball07

fitz wrote: »

Again, we're back to the whole experience thing.
If it doesn't matter that Henry has more experience there, why aren't superior but less experience players selected in other positions?

There's an inconsistency in selection criteria and standards applied to players available, and more often than not, Munster players get the nod.
I used to think that the Munster bias claims were a bit tin-foil hat brigade, but it's hard to argue against.

I'm not going to argue that Kidney isn't inconsistent in his selections. But I also would say that if I was picking the team, I'd have POM on the bench in my absolute strongest team.

As for Munster bias...I'm not convinced that's entirely true. A lot of those selections are pretty marginal- and the main thing with Kidney is that once he has chosen someone, he doesn't tend to let them go.

Fishooks12

jm08 wrote: »

Getting close to the establishment is another way of saying 'having more information' or having a better understanding of the situation. Lets face it, he sees and hears more than anyone on here ever will.

thornley wasn't afraid of offending the irfu about their new policy on foreign players. he was very criticial of them and it.

The IRFU is a body of people

I think Thornley has a personal relationship with Kidney, so as a result he's reluctant to criticize him directly

leftleg

Fireball07 wrote: »

I'm not going to argue that Kidney isn't inconsistent in his selections. But I also would say that if I was picking the team, I'd have POM on the bench in my absolute strongest team.

As for Munster bias...I'm not convinced that's entirely true. A lot of those selections are pretty marginal- and the main thing with Kidney is that once he has chosen someone, he doesn't tend to let them go.

Just ask TOL

jm08

chris85 wrote: »

We have people that can mix it up with the backrow of France already, as in our own backrow who are well able.

Murray's decision making better improve this week. He was slow and unsure. He takes on too much ball himself. Again we have players to carry the ball all day (Healy, SOB, Heaslip, Ferris) so he doesnt need to run it so much. I understand we need to test their defence but doing it so often is not required.

pretty much every commentator have criticised the pack for their lack of intensity and there were no big carries from sean o'brien or heaslip which you would normally get.

Fishooks12

leftleg wrote: »

Or indirectly or ever; infact i question whether Thornley is a robot designed by Kidney like awesomo from South Park

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-5XeJ1iXM

He does critique the way the team play a lot so it's unfair to say he doesn't do it indirectly

leftleg

Fishooks12 wrote: »

The IRFU is a body of people

I think Thornley has a personal relationship with Kidney, so as a result he's reluctant to criticize him directly

Or indirectly or ever; infact i question whether Thornley is a robot designed by Kidney like awesomo from South Park

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-5XeJ1iXM

The similarities are creepy

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

pretty much every commentator have criticised the pack for their lack of intensity and there were no big carries from sean o'brien or heaslip which you would normally get.

jm08

Fishooks12 wrote: »

The IRFU is a body of people

I think Thornley has a personal relationship with Kidney, so as a result he's reluctant to criticize him directly

You think the IRFU are not ok with being criticised ? They spend lots of money on PR every year .

as for you thinking thornley has a personal relationship with kidney ?

Thats what good journalists do . develop good relationships with their sources of information.

and here is a thought, maybe thornely doesn't feel the need to criticise kidney and he thinks he is right?

jm08

leftleg wrote: »

O'brien carried = 18 m (italy)

v australia carried = 45m

POC & ferris were ireland's best ball carriers against italy.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

O'brien carried = 18 m (italy)

v australia carried = 45m

POC & ferris were ireland's best ball carriers against italy.

POC seemed to pop up with the ball every second phase, so not hugely surprising.

SOB isn't on top form, but watch the game again, both Heaslip and SOB made an impact, particularly Heaslip.

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

O'brien carried = 18 m (italy)

v australia carried = 45m

POC & ferris were ireland's best ball carriers against italy.

Its this new thing they do in rugby called securing and clearing out rucks. Your right though they should be clearing out rucks while carrying the ball and smashing people in two. Your priceless. All day entertainment.

leftleg

Tox56 wrote: »

POC seemed to pop up with the ball every second phase, so not hugely surprising.

Its this new thing hes adopted at being first receiver; I think sometimes he reckons hes a fly half or something. Its actually not funny anymore though; Its getting a bit frustrating.

JustinDee

jm08 wrote: »

and here is a thought, maybe thornely doesn't feel the need to criticise kidney and he thinks he is right?

The likely case.

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

POC seemed to pop up with the ball every second phase, so not hugely surprising.

SOB isn't on top form, but watch the game again, both Heaslip and SOB made an impact, particularly Heaslip.

all I'm saying is that the backrow isn't carrying the ball a lot - they maybe doing other things , but they are not making big carries like they used to.

I think that is why keith wood suggested that he be moved to 8 so that he gets a chance to make some carries. at the moment heislip is doing a lot of the ground work so maybe they should just swap positions or something .

phog

Conor O'Shea's analysis from RTE

Ireland need to improve their physicality and take France on at the breakdown to give themselves the best chance of victory in Paris.

Ireland's record in France is poor but the quality we have means there is always a chance and even though Ireland only have two wins in Paris in over 50 years, there have been close encounters.

On the selection front, the toss can be argued on different decisions, the team that will play is not far off what most people would pick.

There was a lot of talk about the injection of pace that Eoin Reddan brought when he came on against Italy. Reddan is an outstanding scrum-half but Conor Murray is a developing player and the only way he is going to grow is by getting game time.


Even leaving aside the discussion about player development, there is also a straight argument that his size and physicality is better suited to this particular match and that is the decision Declan Kidney has made.


Selection is all about opinion and he has set his stall out.

The back-row and the second row were also talked about but nothing has changed since the last time the team to play France was picked a few weeks ago so it is not a surprise to see him stick with the same players.

More broadly, there are simply not that many talking points in the Irish team and whether or not that is a good thing is a different debate. But the talented younger guys like Peter O'Mahony and Simon Zebo are pushing through and they will get in this team over time.

We all know that Ireland were too passive against Wales but we did well against Italy after a sticky start, even though they were not at their best. Ireland got the job done and scored 42 points. Not many teams do that against any opposition.

In Murrayfield, France were poor enough against Scotland and over the last few years, their form has not always been great.

They have not hit the heights, except for in the World Cup final against New Zealand. We talk a lot about the Ireland team having blips and dips in their form but the French are very similar.

But the difference between France at home and France away is massive. I don't know why that is but they are like chalk and cheese.

The key for Ireland is quell the French at the start and try to bring their superior fitness into play. The longer the game goes on, the stronger Ireland will get.

But there needs to be a seismic change to Ireland's physicality. I think there is an opportunity to attack France at the ruck because they do not commit big numbers there. The way the Irish provincial sides attack the breakdown would be a good tactic to employ. Their size and strength in the backline is another worry, and Ireland must get off the line aggressively in defence.

They have made slight changes to their selection. In my opinion, dropping Louis Picamoles is an amazing decision. He is a physical phenomenon and having coached Harlequins against him twice this season, I am delighted to see him left out. The back-row selection of Imanol Harinorduquy, Julien Bonnaire and Thierry Dusautoir probably indicates they want to move Ireland around even more.


The other change sees Clement Poitrenaud come in for the injured Maxime Medard, who is a superb player but not as good a full-back. There are different opinions on Poitrenaud but I think he is the best full-back in France. He can implode and people will say that if you put him under pressure he makes bad decisions, but that is true of every player.

If we give him broken field, he is a sensational counter-attacker and it is a selection that hurts our chances. I love watching him play.

Ireland also have a cracking full-back in Rob Kearney, who is in fabulous form, counter-attacking well, breaking tackles and good under the high ball. It is not quite a head-to-head but as a former full-back myself, I will enjoy watching both players.

On balance, I am a betting man and you have to say that France are going to win.

jm08

leftleg wrote: »

Its this new thing hes adopted at being first receiver; I think sometimes he reckons hes a fly half or something. Its actually not funny anymore though; Its getting a bit frustrating.

Nothing new about POC nearly always being first receiver .

andrewdcs

leftleg wrote: »

Its this new thing hes adopted at being first receiver; I think sometimes he reckons hes a fly half or something. Its actually not funny anymore though; Its getting a bit frustrating.

Keep this one quiet, but every time he's done this over the past few years, <including the WC> was as a ruse to fool the French this Sunday and keep their line tight to the fringes, Murray is going to skip pass and we'll run around em, MAGINOT stylee.

Maybe I watch "Yesterday" channel too much, but the french are ALWAYS susceptible to being outflanked, even going back to Julius Caesar vs the Gauls.

<not even joking>

Otacon

phog wrote: »

Conor O'Shea's analysis from RTE

Even after reading all that, I still do not know what O'Shea's opinion is of the Irish squad selection. The only real opinion he shares is that we need to be aggressive at the breakdown and Picomoles should be starting.

leftleg

Otacon wrote: »

Even after reading all that, I still do not know what O'Shea's opinion is of the Irish squad selection. The only real opinion he shares is that we need to be aggressive at the breakdown and Picomoles should be starting.

A bit like Thornleys articles really; talks alot but says nothing

andrewdcs

Otacon wrote: »

Even after reading all that, I still do not know what O'Shea's opinion is of the Irish squad selection. The only real opinion he shares is that we need to be aggressive at the breakdown and Picomoles should be starting.

Age old question, but Picamoles for who!?
Slot Heaslip to 7?!?! switch SOB/Ferris to 6-7-8? I dunno, feels imbalanced to me.

:pac:

Otacon

leftleg wrote: »

A bit like Thornleys articles really; talks alot but says nothing

But he did say something... about the French selection! Now if he could only talk about what I am interested in [the Irish team] I might be more inclined to read more of what he writes.

leftleg

Otacon wrote: »

But he did say something... about the French selection! Now if he could only talk about what I am interested in [the Irish team] I might be more inclined to read more of what he writes.

Oh no i read it alright; i just copy and paste it to here and bash him around with it.

Podge_irl

Seph503 wrote: »

I don't recall an occassion where Thornley has criticised and/or questioned Kidney. Sure if he did that he wouldn't get to announce the team before everyone else!!

The irony being that there is no need to have an "in" with Kidney to know what the team is going to be.

leftleg

Podge_irl wrote: »

The irony being that there is no need to have an "in" with Kidney to know what the team is going to be.

yep copy and paste the whole way baby

Podge_irl

Conor O'Shea wrote:

Conor Murray is a developing player and the only way he is going to grow is by getting game time.

I don't think anyone is disputing that. The issue is that he should be getting the game time at Munster first. He's struggled in quite a lot of games for Munster (as well as having some very good games). It's unfair to the guy himself to be having him adjust to professional rugby on the international stage. The guy has started 22 professional games in his career - and 5 of them were internationals.

smurphy29

Thornley was once the best rugby journalist in Ireland, and has written many great pieces on Irish rugby, but he has misplaced his critical faculties in the last two years. His outright refusal to ever say anything remotely critical about Kidney's selection or general management has become tiresome, and when compared with how Thornley critiqued Eddie, hypocritical.

Emmet Byrne recently ran rings around him on Newstalk, saying we'd a 10% chance of winning the [postponed] match in Paris and offered up plenty of well thought through reasons for it. Gerry said he disagreed and would give them more like 35-40% chance. McDevitt was surprised, and asked if he realy thought we'd a close to 1-in-2 chance of winning in a ground where we almost never do, and all Gery could do was blurt out, 'I still believe in Declan Kidney!'

leftleg

smurphy29 wrote: »

Thornley was once the best rugby journalist in Ireland, and has written many great pieces on Irish rugby, but he has misplaced his critical faculties in the last two years. His outright refusal to ever say anything remotely critical about Kidney's selection or general management has become tiresome, and when compared with how Thornley critiqued Eddie, hypocritical.

Emmet Byrne recently ran rings around him on Newstalk, saying we'd a 10% chance of winning the [postponed] match in Paris and offered up plenty of well thought through reasons for it. Gerry said he disagreed and would give them more like 35-40% chance. McDevitt was surprised, and asked if he realy thought we'd a close to 1-in-2 chance of winning in a ground where we almost never do, and all Gery could do was blurt out, 'I still believe in Declan Kidney!'

Yep i heard that interview on the way back from a match i played; Cringy from Thornley; Emmet Byrne made him sound like a complete fool.

irishbucsfan

Gerry Potter will never turn his back on Dumbledeclan.

Podge_irl

smurphy29 wrote: »

Emmet Byrne recently ran rings around him on Newstalk, saying we'd a 10% chance of winning the [postponed] match in Paris and offered up plenty of well thought through reasons for it. Gerry said he disagreed and would give them more like 35-40% chance. McDevitt was surprised, and asked if he realy thought we'd a close to 1-in-2 chance of winning in a ground where we almost never do, and all Gery could do was blurt out, 'I still believe in Declan Kidney!'

Do you know when that was? wouldn't mind listening to it if possible.

Burgo

smurphy29 wrote: »

Thornley was once the best rugby journalist in Ireland, and has written many great pieces on Irish rugby, but he has misplaced his critical faculties in the last two years. His outright refusal to ever say anything remotely critical about Kidney's selection or general management has become tiresome, and when compared with how Thornley critiqued Eddie, hypocritical.

Emmet Byrne recently ran rings around him on Newstalk, saying we'd a 10% chance of winning the [postponed] match in Paris and offered up plenty of well thought through reasons for it. Gerry said he disagreed and would give them more like 35-40% chance. McDevitt was surprised, and asked if he realy thought we'd a close to 1-in-2 chance of winning in a ground where we almost never do, and all Gery could do was blurt out, 'I still believe in Declan Kidney!'

Got a link for that? was it on off the ball:?

leftleg

I couldn't find the podcast myself but i did find this; its a rugby blog ive never seen before which does a great piece on McGahan and Munster and Ireland and Irish Rugby Journalism at the moment; Its a great read

http://whiffofcordite.blogspot.com/2012_02_01_archive.html

BoardsMember

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't think anyone is disputing that. The issue is that he should be getting the game time at Munster first. He's struggled in quite a lot of games for Munster (as well as having some very good games).

But the more pertinent thing, as people have pointed out, is that it is not in Kidney's DNA to name him for the sake of giving him experience. Kidney think's he's the best man for the job. That's what's worrying..on so many levels. You're conceding the impetus to the French from the off - you're effectivly taking Sexton, our ball carriers and quick delivery & good game management out of it from the start.

andrewdcs

smurphy29 wrote: »

Thornley was once the best rugby journalist in Ireland, and has written many great pieces on Irish rugby, but he has misplaced his critical faculties in the last two years. His outright refusal to ever say anything remotely critical about Kidney's selection or general management has become tiresome, and when compared with how Thornley critiqued Eddie, hypocritical.

Emmet Byrne recently ran rings around him on Newstalk, saying we'd a 10% chance of winning the [postponed] match in Paris and offered up plenty of well thought through reasons for it. Gerry said he disagreed and would give them more like 35-40% chance. McDevitt was surprised, and asked if he realy thought we'd a close to 1-in-2 chance of winning in a ground where we almost never do, and all Gery could do was blurt out, 'I still believe in Declan Kidney!'

Afraid I agreed with Emmet Byrne but still think its 40% chance, so agree with Thornley..

And yes, my ass is killing me from sitting on / leaning over the fence :pac: but I do still believe.

If we're beaten and beaten by either of scotland or England its a disastre of season on the back of lacklustre year, I think we'll run France close / flip a coin to win it and win both our remaining games for a disappointing (if you ever lose a home game its dissapointing) but not critical season.

If we win in Paris, and lose either of the remaining games, still dissapointing, but if we win the next three its what ifs, blah blah. It's that close. It always is.

Podge_irl

BoardsMember wrote: »

But the more pertinent thing, as people have pointed out, is that it is not in Kidney's DNA to name him for the sake of giving him experience. Kidney think's he's the best man for the job. That's what's worrying..on so many levels. You're conceding the impetus to the French from the off - you're effectivly taking Sexton, our ball carriers and quick delivery & good game management out of it from the start.

I genuinely at this point think Kidney has some issues with Reddan that go beyond rugby. On top of that he has some fascination with large scrum-halves (which is amusing given his history with Stringer). If he actually thinks Murray is the best option now (and more so that he was the best option at the RWC), then he is so ridiculously out of touch it would be funny if it wasn't so depressing.

Podge_irl

andrewdcs wrote: »

If we're beaten and beaten by either of scotland or England its a disastre of season on the back of lacklustre year, I think we'll run France close / flip a coin to win it and win both our remaining games for a disappointing (if you ever lose a home game its dissapointing) but not critical season.

Three "disappointing" seasons in a row should be critical.


I don't think any Irish team of the last 30 years has gone to Paris with a 40% chance of winning, and I sure as hell don't think this one does.

BoardsMember

I fail to see why anyone would think we could win in Paris. I think Scotland is our best (and maybe our only realistic) chance of winning another game, England in Twickenham is going to be very difficult unless we improve dramatically, assuming England continue to make progress as they have been doing.

Sorry, I'm a pessimist by nature, but it's only a self protection thing - I'll believe we can win at kick off time. As someone once said....I can cope with the despair, its the hope that kills me.