Football in Kilkenny whats the point?

andyman

To those trying to defend this, not a thing would be said if Kilkenny were at least competing in games and getting the odd bashing by 10-15 points, but to get the results they're getting and doing nothing about it is a disgrace.

adrian522

andyman wrote: »

To those trying to defend this, not a thing would be said if Kilkenny were at least competing in games and getting the odd bashing by 10-15 points, but to get the results they're getting and doing nothing about it is a disgrace.

Well it's very easy to come on here and have a little rant and say its a disgrace but that doesn't really help maters so what is it you would suggest to improve things or would you rather just complain about it.

It's not fair to say nothing is being done either but the facts are Kilkenny are currently not able to compete at that level.

Defiler Of The Coffin

Peter Canavan is a miracle worker!

Hammer Archer

Interesting interview with the Kilkenny football manager.
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=163119
Gives a glimpse of what he's up against in order to field a team.

adrian522

He's obviously fighting an uphill battle their with lads preferring lower level Hurling over football but there is not really much he can do if lads wont turn out and clubs are obviously not interested in football either, I honestly think they would.be better off withdrawing from the league for the time being at least, constant hammerings not doing Kilkenny or their opponents any good.

Seanieoneill

I am from Kerry and we could use the same excuse but we are competing respectably in Div 2A. Yes, we know that we are not in the same league as Kilkenny, Tipp or Cork but where I come from in North Kerry, there is not any football played and we don't apologise for that in that it we have always been a hurling area and that is that. Of course, we still support and admire Jack O'Connor and the lads but Hurling is No. 1 for us. Have we received hammerings? Yes. Recently 5-18 to 1-14 against Cork but we know where we are, a second tier team and we will try our best to build from there. When we get hammered in hurling, it is by Div. 1 teams. When Kilkenny get hammered in football, it is by Div. 4 teams. Big difference. Players not bothering to show up to play for Kilkenny footballers is not good enough.

solarith

What I find alarming about KK is they are not improving. Would have been considered a long term project a few years ago, but that has to be in tatters now. I can't imagine how the players themselves feel, I do hope they get something out of it.

El Inho

first and foremost...this isnt a chance for the gaa heads to finally get their bashing in on kilkenny alright?

secondly, as a kilkenny man, and a kilkenny man who has played underage football at county level, football is a joke in kilkenny.

once we were brought to a match in wicklow, brand new jj kavangh bus, 50 seater, with 14 of us on it..manager had to drive back and get a lad.

that team had four keepers...me one of them...

i was played out field for most of it where i have NO ability whatsoever.

its a digrace that this is happening, but sure whats going to be done...

a hurler called up to football and who gets injured would be sacrificed in kilkenny for being 'stupid'.

there is a grassroots problem in kilkenny, and the people actually involved with football are in no way to blame. them lads, from my experience, pour their hearts into it and practically get laughed at by others for doing so.

its a shame..but noone has cared for many many many years now...why start caring now?

andyman

adrian522 wrote: »

Well it's very easy to come on here and have a little rant and say its a disgrace but that doesn't really help maters so what is it you would suggest to improve things or would you rather just complain about it.

It's not fair to say nothing is being done either but the facts are Kilkenny are currently not able to compete at that level.

On a county level, the County Board can up their funding towards football on a grassroots level. I'm not talking about on a 50/50 scale, but it has to be improved. The entire attitude towards football has to change and it has to start at the top. If the County Board can show that they're beginning to take football seriously, then maybe others will follow suit.

Even the county of Kilkenny laughs at their own representitive football team like it's one big joke. It's not, I can assure you that.

I'm not calling for wholesale changes to made so that Kilkenny are challenging for Sam Maguire as well as Liam McCarthy, but I'd like to see them at least be competitive and be able to go into a game saying "lads, we've a chance here" or have the opposition saying "these aren't the whipping boys anymore". The reason why Kerry don't get as much hassle is because people defending Kilkenny don't realise what they're defending.

On one side, you've people saying that something needs to be done to start allowing Kilkenny to be competitive in their own division. On the other side, you've people saying Kerry hurlers are nothing like their footballers. While this is true, they're competitive. This is why Kerry hurlers don't get anywhere near the amount of flack as Kilkenny footballers do.

What can I do about the people in my local community asking me "Why don't ya pick up a hurl?" or "what are you playing football for?" Nothing, really. I'm a footballer and I always will be one.

At the end of the day, the Hurling Championships are structured so that all teams can play at their appropriate level and be competitive. In Football, Kilkenny are in their own little league at the bottom of the scale and, as a Kilkenny man, I find it embarrassing.

Kojak

andyman wrote: »

The reason why Kerry don't get as much hassle is because people defending Kilkenny don't realise what they're defending.

On one side, you've people saying that something needs to be done to start allowing Kilkenny to be competitive in their own division. On the other side, you've people saying Kerry hurlers are nothing like their footballers. While this is true, they're competitive. This is why Kerry hurlers don't get anywhere near the amount of flack as Kilkenny footballers do.

Why is it eveytime this kind of discussion comes up, Kerry hurlers are mentioned as a counter-point to KK footballers? I honestly don't understand it Yes Kerry lead the roll of honour in football (as KK do in hurling) but whereas KK inter-county football is rubbish (their county team wouldn't win a Senior club title in any half decent county), the Kerry hurlers have made great strides and would be, at a guess, ranked 16th or so in order of merit. KK are last in football, by a long distance.

KK footballers should be more compared to, say, Cavan or Fermanagh hurlers imo.

MrJoeSoap

Kojak wrote: »

Why is it eveytime this kind of discussion comes up, Kerry hurlers are mentioned as a counter-point to KK footballers? I honestly don't understand it Yes Kerry lead the roll of honour in football (as KK do in hurling) but whereas KK inter-county football is rubbish (their county team wouldn't win a Senior club title in any half decent county), the Kerry hurlers have made great strides and would be, at a guess, ranked 16th or so in order of merit. KK are last in football, by a long distance.

KK footballers should be more compared to, say, Cavan or Fermanagh hurlers imo.

It's easier to pick a team who are strong at football and perceived as weak (or at least compared to the big guns) than to pick a team who are middle-of-the-road in football and woeful or non-existent in hurling.

But either way, the comparisons/contrasts are ultimately flawed, pointless and rhetorical.

andyman

Kojak wrote: »

Why is it eveytime this kind of discussion comes up, Kerry hurlers are mentioned as a counter-point to KK footballers? I honestly don't understand it Yes Kerry lead the roll of honour in football (as KK do in hurling) but whereas KK inter-county football is rubbish (their county team wouldn't win a Senior club title in any half decent county), the Kerry hurlers have made great strides and would be, at a guess, ranked 16th or so in order of merit. KK are last in football, by a long distance.

KK footballers should be more compared to, say, Cavan or Fermanagh hurlers imo.

Exactly. Hope I wasn't coming across as pointing some finger at Kerry hurling. I was merely answering those who brought it up earlier in the thread.

Seanieoneill

Well said. We love our hurling in Kerry and indeed we admire those who play both codes for the county.

Seanieoneill

aidan24326: AIDAN, YOU HAVE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. The argument that Kilkenny would hammer Louth is a non-starter. We in Kerry, whose players come from the a small pocket of about 8 clubs in the North West of the county were beaten a couple of weeks ago by 16 points. Who beat us? Was it a division 4 team? No it was Cork. We know our place. We know where we are and we know where we want to go. John Meyler will not allow us to enter the Munster Championship for at least another 4 years because we are not good enough despite winning the Christy Ring and 3 U-21 B titles in a row. However, if we were being beaten by 50 points in Div 3, I would be calling for a serious review of our county's involvement in hurling.

Martin567

Seanieoneill wrote: »

I am from Kerry and we could use the same excuse but we are competing respectably in Div 2A. Yes, we know that we are not in the same league as Kilkenny, Tipp or Cork but where I come from in North Kerry, there is not any football played and we don't apologise for that in that it we have always been a hurling area and that is that. Of course, we still support and admire Jack O'Connor and the lads but Hurling is No. 1 for us. Have we received hammerings? Yes. Recently 5-18 to 1-14 against Cork but we know where we are, a second tier team and we will try our best to build from there. When we get hammered in hurling, it is by Div. 1 teams. When Kilkenny get hammered in football, it is by Div. 4 teams. Big difference. Players not bothering to show up to play for Kilkenny footballers is not good enough.

Speaking as a Kilkenny man, you make very interesting points. Nobody in Kilkenny has ever really criticised the Kerry hurlers as we are well aware that they are prefectly respectable and far better in relative terms than the Kilkenny footballers.

Amid all the talk of Co Boards to blame, etc, you have actually highlighted the real reason for the difference above. Your area of Kerry is all hurling with very little football played. Were the people from your area forced to play hurling or is it all of their own choosing? I suspect the latter. There is no equivalent area in Kilkenny where football is the dominant sport. Therefore all comparisons are irrelevant.

The Kerry hurling manager is reluctant to have his team play in the Munster Championship because I'm sure he feels that a few heavy defeats would be a setback to the team's development. I believe he is correct. As you say, you know your place and you want to slowly develop by playing teams at a lower level and eventually work your way up to a higher level. This all makes perfect sense and is without doubt the correct approach.

Given that you can see all this, why can't you then open your eyes and recognise that the scenario facing the Kilkenny footballers is in no way comparable to this. Look at the teams they are forced to play. Fermanagh almost reached the All Ireland final in 2004 and were in an Ulster final only 2 or 3 years ago. Limerick have been very close to defeating both Cork & Kerry in the last few years. Even London, the 2nd worst team, brought Mayo to extra-time in last year's championship. These are the teams Kilkenny are expected to play in Div 4. Therefore they don't have any opportunity to develop slowly and apply a similar strategy to the Kerry hurlers.

I can only conclude that there is a huge blindspot in the brains of those who genuinely try to argue that Div 4 football can be compared to Div 4 hurling. There are no real levels in football like there are in hurling and the result is that Kilkenny are abandoned to ridicule by those who refuse to face facts and scratch even slightly below the surface. Nobody expects any Div 3 or Div 4 hurling team to ever play against teams of the standard the Kilkenny footballers are expected to play every week in the league.

Mountainlad

Kojak wrote: »

Why is it eveytime this kind of discussion comes up, Kerry hurlers are mentioned as a counter-point to KK footballers? I honestly don't understand it Yes Kerry lead the roll of honour in football (as KK do in hurling) but whereas KK inter-county football is rubbish (their county team wouldn't win a Senior club title in any half decent county), the Kerry hurlers have made great strides and would be, at a guess, ranked 16th or so in order of merit. KK are last in football, by a long distance.

KK footballers should be more compared to, say, Cavan or Fermanagh hurlers imo.

They wouldn't win it in any County, and that's not an exaggeration.

Agree though, people aren't comparing like for like here.

Hammer Archer

Seanieoneill wrote: »

I am from Kerry and we could use the same excuse but we are competing respectably in Div 2A. Yes, we know that we are not in the same league as Kilkenny, Tipp or Cork but where I come from in North Kerry, there is not any football played and we don't apologise for that in that it we have always been a hurling area and that is that. Of course, we still support and admire Jack O'Connor and the lads but Hurling is No. 1 for us. Have we received hammerings? Yes. Recently 5-18 to 1-14 against Cork but we know where we are, a second tier team and we will try our best to build from there. When we get hammered in hurling, it is by Div. 1 teams. When Kilkenny get hammered in football, it is by Div. 4 teams. Big difference. Players not bothering to show up to play for Kilkenny footballers is not good enough.

See you've (possibly unintentionally) identified some of the problems facing Kilkenny in trying to build a more competitive football team.

Number 1: Most counties have an area where the so called weaker sport is dominant. Even in Meath, places like Kilmessan, Kildalkey, Kiltale are exclusively hurling clubs. As Martin pointed out, there simply aren't any footballing areas in Kilkenny whatsoever which is a massive obstacle.

Also, no offence to Kerry hurlers, but the gulf in class between Division 1 and Division 2 in hurling is far far greater than the gulf in class between Division 1 and Division 4 in football. For example, Wicklow (Division 4) took Armagh (Division 1) to a replay in the football championship and Clare were so close to doing the same against Down. Meanwhile, the Laois hurlers (who came third in division 2) shipped 50 points against Cork in last season's championship in losing by 34 points.

As has been stated over and over again, the counties that are absolutely woeful in hurling (Leitrim, Fermanagh, Cavan etc.) have the luxury of having several teams just as bad as them to give them a competitive league to take part in. However, even if they were to play the likes of Mayo or Tyrone (not exactly strong hurlers), they would probably be destroyed. So them being competitive is not because of a better attitude to hurling, it's simply because several others have an equally poor attitude.

Kilkenny are alone at their level in football. And as per the interview above, it's not just the county board that are at fault. Kilkenny footballers obviously choose to participate in hurling games, regardless of the grade, before county football games so a massive change in the entire county's attitude to football would be needed to even start to become competitive in division 4.

Kojak

Martin567 wrote: »

Given that you can see all this, why can't you then open your eyes and recognise that the scenario facing the Kilkenny footballers is in no way comparable to this. Look at the teams they are forced to play. Fermanagh almost reached the All Ireland final in 2004 and were in an Ulster final only 2 or 3 years ago. Limerick have been very close to defeating both Cork & Kerry in the last few years. Even London, the 2nd worst team, brought Mayo to extra-time in last year's championship. These are the teams Kilkenny are expected to play in Div 4. Therefore they don't have any opportunity to develop slowly and apply a similar strategy to the Kerry hurlers.

So what would be the answer then? Pull out of the league, (like cavan in the hurling) or just play at Junior level? AFAIK KK were competitive at that level for the last few years. I'm not saying that they would win the Junior AI, but at worst case scenario, they wouldn't be getting the trimmings that they have had to endure for the last 12 months or so. Also I see that KK's minor got a hammering at the weekend. This is where the work will have to be done (development squads etc.) if KK football is to be at a respectable level in, say, 5 years time.

Thud

How'd you reckon the kilkenny hurlers would do if they lined out for the kk football team?

They'd have the fitness and most would have been handy footballers at underage....would make far an interesting charity match at the end of the season...

Seanieoneill

I am not disagreeing with you with regard to differences between hurling levels and football levels. Trust me, my sympathies lie with those men in balck and amber who play football. I understand having spent cold evenings watching Cork give our hurlers lessons!! However, where are Kilkenny going when they are suffering these defeats. It seems so unfair to send these guys out to suffer these defeats. Perhaps I am wrong but it seems nobody in the Kilkenny hierarchy cares about football and what the players are suffering.

Hammer Archer wrote: »

See you've (possibly unintentionally) identified some of the problems facing Kilkenny in trying to build a more competitive football team.

Number 1: Most counties have an area where the so called weaker sport is dominant. Even in Meath, places like Kilmessan, Kildalkey, Kiltale are exclusively hurling clubs. As Martin pointed out, there simply aren't any footballing areas in Kilkenny whatsoever which is a massive obstacle.

Also, no offence to Kerry hurlers, but the gulf in class between Division 1 and Division 2 in hurling is far far greater than the gulf in class between Division 1 and Division 4 in football. For example, Wicklow (Division 4) took Armagh (Division 1) to a replay in the football championship and Clare were so close to doing the same against Down. Meanwhile, the Laois hurlers (who came third in division 2) shipped 50 points against Cork in last season's championship in losing by 34 points.

As has been stated over and over again, the counties that are absolutely woeful in hurling (Leitrim, Fermanagh, Cavan etc.) have the luxury of having several teams just as bad as them to give them a competitive league to take part in. However, even if they were to play the likes of Mayo or Tyrone (not exactly strong hurlers), they would probably be destroyed. So them being competitive is not because of a better attitude to hurling, it's simply because several others have an equally poor attitude.

Kilkenny are alone at their level in football. And as per the interview above, it's not just the county board that are at fault. Kilkenny footballers obviously choose to participate in hurling games, regardless of the grade, before county football games so a massive change in the entire county's attitude to football would be needed to even start to become competitive in division 4.

gobo99

Stinicker wrote: »

Croke Park should be fining the Kilkenny Co. Board heavily for their failure to promote the game of Football and threten to exclude them from the Hurling Championship if they don't promote the game. Down here in Kerry practically the entire North of the County and down South in Kenmare and Kilgarvan are almost exclusively Hurling only. If Kerry took the same selfish approach to football that Kilkenny takes to Hurling then we could be winning the All-Ireland every single year and kill off the sport also. However the GAA stands for both codes and not one sport only.

Sure why don't we go the whole hog and exclude countys that don't compete in Ladies Football, Camogie, Handball and Rounders as well.
99% of people in Kilkenny don't give a sh1t about football and its time people got over it. What's the point in trying to force the game there if there's no interest there.

Down here in Kerry practically the entire North of the County and down South in Kenmare and Kilgarvan are almost exclusively Hurling only

so basically these clubs are in the same position as kilkenny are in. off with their heads I say!

DublinGAA96

I'm not very knowledgeable on the situation but in my opinion, if the various football panels enjoy playing their odd game of football for the county(even though they may get obliterated) then let them have it. I mean it would be unfair if the county board scrapped it, even though there is only a small minority in Kilkenny that enjoy football. But if the players hate it and don't want to play, then that's a totally, totally different thing. In my eyes then yes it should be scrapped. The county board would be wasting their time then!

Carawaystick

Good Counsel College won the All Ireland B football championship in '93. Paddy Mullally was captain

They lost the All Ireland in '95, Richie Mullally was playing. There were 7 of the starting 15 from Kilkenny on that team.

There's good Footballers in kk, but no structures. The club result upthread supports this.

randd1

I see Dublin decimated Laois in the U21, 2-21 to 0-4. It follows on from last years abysmal results in U21 and senior hurling.

I'm moved to ask where's the outcry for Laois' funding to be cut until they improve in either, or both, codes? If we are to lambast Kilkenny over not doing enough to improve their poor football results, then clearly Laois are not doing enough at either code going by their results. Where's the uproar? Where's the indignity? Where's the claims that Laois are a disgrace to the GAA?

Or is the outcry over Kilkenny's results simply because Kilkenny are a successful hurling county? Just goes to show that sh**e results and performances are perfectly acceptable so long as your not successful at all. Everybody loves a trier, but can't stand a winner. I believe that's called begrudgery.

ft9

A thread this big would be more appropriate discussing the greatness of Kilkenny hurling, not the state of football.

Just shows what this country is about. Begrudgers.