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Bullying Accusation
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01-03-2012 8:01pm#1Hi all,
This is a tricky, I think I have been accused of bullying someone at work, the dept I work in is a group of around 7/8, quite boisterous and have a reputation for being this nature throughout the building.
There is the general tone that you need to be thick skinned to survive in the the dept given the nature of the slagging etc that goes on.
There is a member who is a bit older than the majority of the team and is thus subjected to comments on their age, what they are wearing etc, but they have hit back giving just as good as they get.
The person never has had a problem with anything and seemed to take it in good spirits but has now claimed that there is bullying going on and fingered a number of team members as being behind it.
Obviously if the person felt bullied, I would feel terrible as I genuinely viewed it as a bit of banter that kept everyone going within the team and having a bit of a laugh (our team are viewed in the building as the most fun as the rest of the building can be quite miserable at times)
I don't know what to do in this situation, obviously I would be first to apologise but given that the person responded at the time and never once gave us the first clue that there was a problem, it is strange now that it has come up.
And finally, I do know that at the end of the day, I am definitely in the wrong here so by all means, I will be seeking the person out to apologise but I am just wondering if 'They seemed to take it ok' is much of a defence?
Thanks0
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If I were you I would get my apology in first, before any disciplinary process kicks in.
As to your question:
" but I am just wondering if 'They seemed to take it ok' is much of a defense?"
Absolutely no defense at all I'm afraid.
And given that the department has a reputation for the behavior and the company took no action to date, his case is probably a slam dunk.0 -
yeah i hear you.
I do feel awful about it, as it is not merely a case of one person is bullying another, but more so where the lines have been blurred and now obviously being crossed.
There are other elements to this, and the persons claim may be used now as it is an easy way out for them, but i guess that it is quite serious.0 -
Hi Ladjacket,
Most companies i've worked in have involved this sort of banter so I know exactly where you are coming from, like some previous posters have said apologise and hope for the best.0 -
Hi Ladjacket,
Most companies i've worked in have involved this sort of banter so I know exactly where you are coming from, like some previous posters have said apologise and hope for the best.
thanks for your response. fingers crossed anyway - have totally learned my lesson on this anyway, I just assumed that as the person was both taking all the slagging and then responding that everything was ok.0 -
There is a member who is a bit older than the majority of the team
There's your answer right there. Fair play to her for reporting it.
This lady's life experience has taught her only too well that some very calculating manipulating low life's out there often pretend their just having a wee bit of crack, when in fact their 'humour' or 'slagging' as you like to call it, is a deliberate tactic intended to gradually control and erode the group's overall view of a person, and therefore gradually ridicule their reputation and standing over time, while the group consider you a funny guy, at her expense, and yet it appears to them to be an ok style of humour. (Doesn't say much for their qualities either if they laughed along.) Not saying you are, or are not one of these covert slime balls, but if you talk and behave like one, don't be surprised if you are thought of as one and called on it someday. Repeat behavior rather than a few once off jokes is the clue, that's why he gave you so many chances to cease, and pretended it was ok. He was checking to see is this going to stop.
Decent and intelligent humour doesn't have to involve putting someone else down. That's for the gutter.
Secondary school / college boy humour is over.
You might like to think your group is great crack, but it sounds like you're just keeping company with a bunch of hateful arseholes pretending on the surface to be funny. Remember the old adage, you are the company you keep.
The fact that you've expressed some remorse shows there might be some hope for you.
Sort yourself out, and dump the hyena pack.0 -
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I wouldnt find it funny if someone was making fun of my age ALL of the time. Maybe once, twice fine. But anymore Id be getting thick. Another person might not give a flying fiddlers to a comment like this, but your first mistake was to assume that everyone thinks like everyone else in your department.
Interesting that you said:I just assumed that as the person was both taking all the slagging and then responding that everything was ok.
Shur what was he supposed to do? If he doesnt take it/respond to the "craic" he might have been conscious that he wasnt fitting in with the bravado of the group. Its not a very nice situation for that person to be in. But at least you know now that it was wrong.0 -
hi all,
just a little update on this, i was called and informed that an official complaint has been lodged and that a full investigation will be staged over the coming weeks.
To the last two posts, you are correct in what you are saying. I am well aware at how the person may have felt.
I should point out that the person who has made the complaint is a woman, and its three guys who the complaint is against.
One of her complaints was that she was called derogatory remarks (one of them is the word prostitute) by one of the people she has complained about.
Just a little background, she has also made remarks to the guys asking how many other female employees on the building they have slept with, their performance in the bedroom, talking about how one of the lads ex girlfriends was right to dump him etc etc.
It has not been a one way street, not by a long chalk.
Now, I am totally aware as I have said that if I upset the lady and made her feel intimidated t come to work, I will hold my hands up and apologise. I have expressed to my line manager that if the issue could be sorted by meeting in a room and apologising I would be more than happy to do so.
Given that she has also indulged in the same type of 'banter' (for lack of a better word), can anyone advise where I stand here. i have worked in the company for a long time, progressed through the ranks and would be regarded as an extremely helpful, friendly and polite colleague.
Sorry for going on but I am very annoyed at the whole situatiuon, more so at allowing this accusation to be levelled against me by placing myself in the position.
Thanks0 -
I can see where you are coming from to an extent but too many times people use the whole line of "I have been here X number of years, therefore i am immune from any disciplinary procedures and everyone has to adapt to my personality etc" which is total rubbish as there are procedures and rules in companies for a reason- it doesnt matter if you are there 10 months or 10 years, you are not bigger than the company, but sadly too many long termers think they own the place and can treat others like crap. You certainly seem to fall into this category and regardless of the woman giving similar banter back to ye, you deserve to be disciplined for this and it might give you a wake up call on how to treat people, especially if they suspend you which in my opinion they certainly should.
If you or any of your group started slagging me off and calling me offensive names i would be first to your manager with a list of dates and comments but i suspect that your toxic bullying atmosphere is tolerated because in nearly all cases like this, the management turn a blind eye to the culture and hence its allowed to flourish. A clean sweep from top to bottom is whats needed in your departments case. If you have fun from making other people's lives a misery that makes you a sad and pathetic individual and you deserve the book thrown at you.0 -
she has also made remarks to the guys asking how many other female employees on the building they have slept with, their performance in the bedroom, talking about how one of the lads ex girlfriends was right to dump him etc etc.
It has not been a one way street, not by a long chalk.
Given that she has also indulged in the same type of 'banter' (for lack of a better word), can anyone advise where I stand here.
Instead of trying to deflect and downplay it, do the decent thing and take your medicine.
Maybe then you'll learn something, and quit the gutter talk and the hyena pack.0 -
Wanderer2010 wrote: »You certainly seem to fall into this category and regardless of the woman giving similar banter back to ye, you deserve to be disciplined for this and it might give you a wake up call on how to treat people, especially if they suspend you which in my opinion they certainly should.
If you have fun from making other people's lives a misery that makes you a sad and pathetic individual and you deserve the book thrown at you.
So just to be clear, does that mean that she should be disciplined as well, by your measure?
Also, I do not know if you have read the entire thread, I have said how the lady never once gave us the impression she was upset by this and in on a number of occasions encourgaed it and started it.
And finally, please refrain from calling me a sad pathetic individual when you do not know me at all. I have already been with my manager and expressed my regret that this has taken place and said that i am more that willing to apologise to the lady for my actions.
I guess we cant all be infallible like yourself.0 -
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Instead of trying to deflect and downplay it, do the decent thing and take your medicine.
Maybe then you'll learn something, and quit the gutter talk and the hyena pack.
Thank you for your response, to be honest I would like the issue resolved and I have already offered my apologies but have been informed that as this is now a formal grievance procedure that there cannot be any type of communication like that now.
I know that I have made a mistake in this case as i have already mentioned in this thread. I wasn't trying to deflect any part of it, I was merely asking if the fact that the lady herself would have encouraged this type of behaviour on occasion, if that would play a factor in the situation.0 -
Now, I am totally aware as I have said that if I upset the lady and made her feel intimidated t come to work, I will hold my hands up and apologise. I have expressed to my line manager that if the issue could be sorted by meeting in a room and apologising I would be more than happy to do so.
It sounds like you are trying to be cooperative. However, it's not clear whether you have actually admitted any wrongdoing yet. You might want to consider taking legal advice before making any admissions to your employers or anyone else, particularly where an official complaint has been made and an investigation is imminent.
And some people on this thread clearly don't have your best interests at heart.
You need to be careful.0 -
So just to be clear, does that mean that she should be disciplined as well, by your measure?
Also, I do not know if you have read the entire thread, I have said how the lady never once gave us the impression she was upset by this and in on a number of occasions encourgaed it and started it.
And finally, please refrain from calling me a sad pathetic individual when you do not know me at all. I have already been with my manager and expressed my regret that this has taken place and said that i am more that willing to apologise to the lady for my actions.
I guess we cant all be infallible like yourself.
I have read the thread and you even say yourself that your department is known to be full of "banter" and you need to be "thick-skinned" to get by, that in itself is proof that your management is weak and cowardly as they have allowed your clique and rules to dictate how people get on in your department and not, you know, the usual company rules and grievance procedures for people to use if they feel bullied. One man's banter is another man's torment so i would think twice about how your actions are perceived by others before you start slagging people.
As i said your atmosphere is not at all uncommon in many workplaces. You are a long termer, right? Im guessing you think you can run the place and know how to twist management? In this case you should be disciplined for it at least it might make you a bit humble about the fact that you are just a number, NOTHING more.
And yes, I accept your point that if the woman was part of this and it wasnt all one-sided then she should be warned as well but that doesnt let you off the hook does it? Wow, I would hate to work in your company.0 -
Right. You are going to have to be very careful about this, because from the off start of this post, you have already given the wrong impression and information as to what is actually going on. You do not paint a clear picture.
You first few posts state that you and the group were at her constantly-I imagined a person standing there forced to take all this slagging. Now, if she was part of it, and encouraged it, that is a completely different story. Would advise you write down everything first of all and have it in front of you when the enquiry starts. Times/dates of conversations. Reactions to the conversations. Any words used on her part to try and show she was engaging fully in this "banter".0 -
Wanderer2010 wrote: »I have read the thread and you even say yourself that your department is known to be full of "banter" and you need to be "thick-skinned" to get by, that in itself is proof that your management is weak and cowardly as they have allowed your clique and rules to dictate how people get on in your department and not, you know, the usual company rules and grievance procedures for people to use if they feel bullied. One man's banter is another man's torment so i would think twice about how your actions are perceived by others before you start slagging people.
As i said your atmosphere is not at all uncommon in many workplaces. You are a long termer, right? Im guessing you think you can run the place and know how to twist management? In this case you should be disciplined for it at least it might make you a bit humble about the fact that you are just a number, NOTHING more.
And yes, I accept your point that if the woman was part of this and it wasnt all one-sided then she should be warned as well but that doesnt let you off the hook does it? Wow, I would hate to work in your company.
Wow. I wish everything was as clear as you perceive it to be Wanderer. It does not matter who long I have worked in the company for, I don't think i can run the place or indeed twist management.
I am not asking to be let off the hook, I have repeatedly said here that I am willing to apologise for my actions - absolutely and unequivocally.
I would ask you however to refrain from making such sweeping generalisations as you have done in your previous posts however.0 -
dellas1979 wrote: »Right. You are going to have to be very careful about this, because from the off start of this post, you have already given the wrong impression and information as to what is actually going on. You do not paint a clear picture.
You first few posts state that you and the group were at her constantly-I imagined a person standing there forced to take all this slagging. Now, if she was part of it, and encouraged it, that is a completely different story. Would advise you write down everything first of all and have it in front of you when the enquiry starts. Times/dates of conversations. Reactions to the conversations. Any words used on her part to try and show she was engaging fully in this "banter".
Thanks for your response, the lady in question was never forced or subjected to any stream of abuse, it would have been comments here and there that she then responded to with comments that were just as bad.
Look, on the whole, I can see clearly that things went on that should not have done. I do not need anyone here telling me that I am a disgrace or anything like that. I know I have done wrong, and although some people might find it hard to believe, i genuinely do feel terrible about the whole thing. I just wish that it could all be sorted now.
One of the issues with me that the lady has is that I was rude to her, yet after that incident i sat with her and we had a chat which involved the usual what did you get up to at the weekend etc - if she had even said to me 'look your behaviour recently has made me a bit upset, i would have apologised without question to her.
I guess I am just disappointed that it has gone this far now.0 -
One of the issues with me that the lady has is that I was rude to her, yet after that incident i sat with her and we had a chat which involved the usual what did you get up to at the weekend etc - if she had even said to me 'look your behaviour recently has made me a bit upset, i would have apologised without question to her.
I would think her skin was probably crawling during that conversation.
Some people under severe pressure in these control situations will do anything to fake normality, and therefore steer the conversation to something normal, in the vain hope that normality wil return and they can escape from the situation. The victim telling bullies their behaviour upsets them does not really work, it will just spur the bully on behind their back, and in the twisted 'innocent' bully's mind, allow them to invent further excuses for ridicule and control, and now your trying to lessen/justify it by claiming she is also to blame for your crass behaviour because she did not force you to stop untill it had gone too far.
Just because the victim had to play along with you / had to give as good as she got (probably against all her instincts/better nature) in a form of short term self preservation, does not lessen the actions of your gang/pack, who pretended and prided themselves as being self declared great craic.0 -
^ I agree with the above point, maybe she felt so victimised by these group of "great craic" men that to join in was her only defense. But to LadJacket, I pose the question: Why does your manager even ALLOW there to be such an atmosphere of being thick skinned and tough to work with you and your workmates? You said yourself your dept. had that reputation. If this is the case, management should have stepped right in and put you all straight with regards your behavior and the way ye obviously made new people feel (if the reputation is there, then the management are definitely aware of it).
Maybe your manager has no stones, maybe they dont care or you could just be a big old boys club. The fact that you are not too worried about being fired for this suggests you know nothing will happen to you. This woman should bring a union rep (if your are unionised) with her and explain how the situation makes her feel and in my opinion she should be transferred straight away...sounds like she is well shot of working in your department.0 -
Wanderer2010 wrote: »^ I agree with the above point, maybe she felt so victimised by these group of "great craic" men that to join in was her only defense. But to LadJacket, I pose the question: Why does your manager even ALLOW there to be such an atmosphere of being thick skinned and tough to work with you and your workmates? You said yourself your dept. had that reputation. If this is the case, management should have stepped right in and put you all straight with regards your behavior and the way ye obviously made new people feel (if the reputation is there, then the management are definitely aware of it).
Maybe your manager has no stones, maybe they dont care or you could just be a big old boys club. The fact that you are not too worried about being fired for this suggests you know nothing will happen to you. This woman should bring a union rep (if your are unionised) with her and explain how the situation makes her feel and in my opinion she should be transferred straight away...sounds like she is well shot of working in your department.
Wanderer, I am not sure if I have wronged you or something like that on here in the past but you seem to have formed your opinion of me on this entire thread.
I have said that I have worked in the company for a few years which has allowed me to get to know 99% of the workforce. I speak to everyone by name, am polite and helpful to everybody within the company, if anyone needs anything, Im one of the first to drop what I am doing to help out.
I have never been involved in anything like this before. I have made a massive mistake and am horrified at what has gone on. I feel terrible that someone felt upset due to something i done. I want it resolved ASAP and am willing to accept any verdict that is forthcoming.
However, you do not seem to see any remorse on my part for the events for which I have posted in the first place. If that is the case, i apologise that you cannot, but I can safely say that is the case.0 -
Wanderer, I am not sure if I have wronged you or something like that on here in the past but you seem to have formed your opinion of me on this entire thread.
I have said that I have worked in the company for a few years which has allowed me to get to know 99% of the workforce. I speak to everyone by name, am polite and helpful to everybody within the company, if anyone needs anything, Im one of the first to drop what I am doing to help out.
I have never been involved in anything like this before. I have made a massive mistake and am horrified at what has gone on. I feel terrible that someone felt upset due to something i done. I want it resolved ASAP and am willing to accept any verdict that is forthcoming.
However, you do not seem to see any remorse on my part for the events for which I have posted in the first place. If that is the case, i apologise that you cannot, but I can safely say that is the case.
You have not wronged me im just giving my opinion based on your post. I have asked you twice already, why is it your management tolerate your atmosphere in the department where you have to be, and i quote, "thick skinned" to get along? Do they have any balls to pull you up on potential bullying behavior or is it just a boys club where you join in or get out. Because if i were this woman i would be horrified facing that every day.0 -
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If you're going to post in this thread then:
1) make sure that what you're saying is helpful to the OP
2) lay off the personal abuse.
I have no problems with helping him understand how the complain-er might be feeling (but do remember that you are speculating, as she has not posted here, and if she does I'd expect to see it in a different thread, and for her to be given constructive advice too).
But I don't expect to see personal abuse.
The OP has admitted that what he was doing is wrong, and is looking for suggestions, not yet more slagging.
/moderation
OP, I'd suggest that you do a bit of research about the company's grievance procedure - how are things supposed to work, what's happened in the past, etc. Forewarned is forearmed.
It's likely at the end of this that the complain-er and most of your team will still be working there. You're going to have to establish more professional working relationships. I'd suggest avoiding all conversations that aren't to do with work, at least in the short term.0 -
Your attitude and that of you little pals who were in cahoots to bully this lady stinks. You deserve what you getWanderer2010 wrote: »^ I agree with the above point, maybe she felt so victimised by these group of "great craic" men that to join in was her only defense. But to LadJacket, I pose the question: Why does your manager even ALLOW there to be such an atmosphere of being thick skinned and tough to work with you and your workmates? You said yourself your dept. had that reputation. If this is the case, management should have stepped right in and put you all straight with regards your behavior and the way ye obviously made new people feel (if the reputation is there, then the management are definitely aware of it).
Maybe your manager has no stones, maybe they dont care or you could just be a big old boys club. The fact that you are not too worried about being fired for this suggests you know nothing will happen to you. This woman should bring a union rep (if your are unionised) with her and explain how the situation makes her feel and in my opinion she should be transferred straight away...sounds like she is well shot of working in your department.
Wanderer, I am not sure if I have wronged you or something like that on here in the past but you seem to have formed your opinion of me on this entire thread.
I have said that I have worked in the company for a few years which has allowed me to get to know 99% of the workforce. I speak to everyone by name, am polite and helpful to everybody within the company, if anyone needs anything, Im one of the first to drop what I am doing to help out.
I have never been involved in anything like this before. I have made a massive mistake and am horrified at what has gone on. I feel terrible that someone felt upset due to something i done. I want it resolved ASAP and am willing to accept any verdict that is forthcoming.
However, you do not seem to see any remorse on my part for the events for which I have posted in the first place. If that is the case, i apologise that you cannot, but I can safely say that is the case.0 -
Paddy Bateman wrote: »Your attitude and that of you little pals who were in cahoots to bully this lady stinks. You deserve what you get
thanks for your input. it is hugely appreciated.0 -
Paddy Bateman warned for ignoring a clear on-thread warning. Others will follow if necessary.
Make posts helpful to the OP, or don't post.0 -
@ LadJacket, if the management has tolerated a laddish culture of banter and bullying such to the point that you need a "thick skin" to get on in your department then i suggest going over their heads as they are obviously aware of and indifferent to the culture. If you are a member of the union then get advice from a rep on how to proceed. But the fact that you didnt respond to my questions on WHY your department has this reputation is worrying at best..0
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Wanderer2010 wrote: »You have not wronged me im just giving my opinion based on your post. I have asked you twice already, why is it your management tolerate your atmosphere in the department where you have to be, and i quote, "thick skinned" to get along? Do they have any balls to pull you up on potential bullying behavior or is it just a boys club where you join in or get out. Because if i were this woman i would be horrified facing that every day.
Wanderer, that is fine - and apologies for not answering your question. It is a large organisation where management would not/may not be aware of everything that goes on in the dept - they may think tha as the work is being done then everything is good to go. I cannot speculate though as I am not in management. It is by no means a boys club at all - the majority of the workforce from bottom to top is female.
Can I just make this point - and this is not aimed just at you Wanderer - it is striking me as strange that even though I have expressed my remorse at the situation, my disappointment that I allowed myself to get involved in such a situation and most importantly my shame that someone felt upset by my actions, despite this, you and other posters on this thread have continued to hammer me for it. I know what I have done is wrong, and I want to make amends for it.
Heaven forbid if I actually came on here and acted like she had wronged me and that i was right - but it seems like that would be the better route to take judging by some of the responses.0 -
@ Ladjacket, if your laddish banter has been tolerated by management up to this point and that does seem to be the case then i suggest going over their head as they obviously dont care so go to a union rep and ask for advice on how to proceed. But the fact that your department even has this "thick skinned" reputation is worrying in the first place and i have asked 4 times now what makes it so but you wont give me an answer so that kind of speaks volumes..0
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Unbelievable, I have to say massey's and especially wanderer's responses have been extreme to say the least and not helpful at all. Sounds like personal issues creeping in, I'd put them on ignore.
I sympathise with your situation, have worked in those types before. Bunch of lads having the 'laugh', can get out of hand and these steps get taken. It was mentioned that legal advice should be taken before admitting anything? I personally would probably fess up and explain like you have here. You seem genuinely sorry and can see where you went wrong and I would be convinced that it wouldn't happen again, but that's just me. Good luck mate.0 -
Has she said this to anyone that she has not complained about? If so, get them to explain her behaviour to HR (it'd be seen as reactionary if it came from you or the other three), as it sounds like she's just upped her abuse of you, albeit through official channels.Just a little background, she has also made remarks to the guys asking how many other female employees on the building they have slept with, their performance in the bedroom, talking about how one of the lads ex girlfriends was right to dump him etc etc.
It has not been a one way street, not by a long chalk.0 -
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Wanderer2010 wrote: »@ Ladjacket, if your laddish banter has been tolerated by management up to this point and that does seem to be the case then i suggest going over their head as they obviously dont care so go to a union rep and ask for advice on how to proceed. But the fact that your department even has this "thick skinned" reputation is worrying in the first place and i have asked 4 times now what makes it so but you wont give me an answer so that kind of speaks volumes..
Give it a rest would you :rolleyes:
He's asking for advice on how to proceed, no need for your holier than thy attitude.
OP I feel for you and I've been on both ends of the scale so I know that you can feel like you are being bullied but also it can be hard to know when you are crossing a line. I think that you should apologize to her and then hope for the best. At the end of the day it's not like you've killed someone, you might get disciplined but think of it as a learning experience. I'd recommend looking at past cases as someone else mentioned.0
This discussion has been closed.
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