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Bullying Accusation

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    #32
    Ladjacket
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Ladjacket


    Wanderer - The reason it would have that reputation is because it has been the least busy department in the place for the last year or so. Because of this, people from other depts would stop in on their tea breaks for a chat, be it about football, weekend events or anything at all.

    I know you would love me to say that it has the reputation for being 'good craic' because it is a team of 10 foot tall bullying monsters but I am afraid this is not the case. When I say about being thick skinned, I mean that as it is less busy, everyone spends a bit more time talking to each other. As time passes by, you get to know each other a bit more, hence you are a bit quicker to make 'smart' remarks - in general a bit of slagging to make the day go in a bit quicker.

    I would like to thank the last three posters who have genuinely tried to help as opposed to some other people on this thread - it is interesting how I have been accused of bullying in the workplace yet some people think that because they are behind a keyboard they can say what they want.

    Thanks again.


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    #33
    Bluefoam
    Registered Users Posts: 7,740 ✭✭✭Bluefoam


    OP, I wouldn't apologise. That would be an admission of guilt. But I would offer a nicely worded expanation letting her know what you explained in your earlier post... That it was all in the nature of fun, which had been existant in the office & that you meant no harm or ill feeling, that you understand their greif and you will take that into consideration in the future.


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    #34
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,475 ✭✭✭weisses


    @ op

    Is the woman in question looking for more then an apology as far as you know ?

    Asking this because of the ridiculous claiming culture in this country


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    #35
    Ladjacket
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Ladjacket


    @ Weisses - I am not sure to be honest. I was told in my meeting with my manager that a complaint was made. I then offered to meet with the lady and apologise for anything I would have done to upset her but he advised me not to do this as she wanted it to be a formal procedure and he has launched an investigation into it now.


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    #36
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,475 ✭✭✭weisses


    Ladjacket wrote: »
    @ Weisses - I am not sure to be honest. I was told in my meeting with my manager that a complaint was made. I then offered to meet with the lady and apologise for anything I would have done to upset her but he advised me not to do this as she wanted it to be a formal procedure and he has launched an investigation into it now.

    What you need to do IMHO is to prepare a case for yourself against her, if she made any remarks to you ... write them down and present them when needed also you said that everyone knew about the going on in your dept ... I must assume that management knew about that as well ...hold them responsible for this as well

    The woman could be genuinely hurt by your comments but that doesn't mean she can say similar things back at you on an ongoing basis

    She could be looking for a nice sum of money over your backs ...In that case you need to able to defend yourself and perhaps counterclaim (if it comes that far assuming that is possible)

    Come prepared ...against her and your boss

    But again that is what I would do in this case based on what you presented in the OP

    Keep us posted and GL


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    #37
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    Make a counter claim about the stuff she said, it's time to go to war I'm afraid, she was in the wrong too.

    I've been in a similar situation unfortunately where someone took the stuff said to heart yet also said some pretty bad stuff, we all just laughed it off until one day one of them complained. Obviously if any of us had known that it was upsetting him we would never have said anything.

    Learned a lesson then, people you work with aren't your buddies.

    It ended grand for me, made counter claims and it ended in apologies etc but you are in a harder position as a woman has taken a complaint.


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    #38
    Bluefoam
    Registered Users Posts: 7,740 ✭✭✭Bluefoam


    OP, I'm sorry to say it, but you may have said too much already. You have spoken to your supervisor & have told them you would like to apologise? It sounds as though they brought you in 'for a friendly discussion' and maybe got more info out of you than you should have given. If you have expressed the need to give an apology, that is an admission of guilt. This can mean severe disciplinary action and even losing your job if I'm correct. The one saving grace you (may) have, is that at any dsciplinary meeting, you are entitled to have a witness present. If they did not offer you this option, you can claim that the meeting was illegitimate and you were forced to say things you did not mean or you can claim you never said them at all.

    Its time to be very defensive. It sounds like you are more concerned about your collegue than yourself, remember that her action can possibly get you fired & your supervisor has already said that she wants to make the action official - so she is looking for results!

    Dig up as much against her as you can & make a counter complaint ASAP. If she has sent you any inappropriate emails, use them! If she is complaining about a number of people, make sure you all support each others stories and make sure your story does not inciminate yourself.

    Do not admit any guilt! That is up to her to prove.


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    #39
    DipStick McSwindler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭DipStick McSwindler


    This post has been deleted.


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    #40
    Ladjacket
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Ladjacket


    I guess I am being totally naive here when I say that I cannot believe it has come to this. I admit that I have made some mistakes in the whole situation and have obviously been naive to think that an apology would set things straight.

    I appreciate everybody's comments where they have said about launching counter claims etc, it just seems crazy that it has come to this.

    By admitting my mistakes and guilt at parts of this, I was hoping that it would serve to have a speedy and favourable resolution for all involved.

    I guess I am just in shock at the entire thing. I do know that other people involved in this case do not have any worries at all about it whereas I am very annoyed by it all.

    Just a side point on this - another member of that department, (also female) has said that 'she brought it all on herself, if she had of said early days that this behaviour is making her upset it would never have taken place, but rather than do that, she encouraged it and gave me the impression that she revelled in the attention'.

    That was the view of another female in the team, just for those of you who have mentioned 'hyena pack', 'gang of bullying men' and 'boys club'.


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    #41
    Irish_Elect_Eng
    Registered Users Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Irish_Elect_Eng


    While I cannot condone the behavior in your department, I understand how easily a negative culture can develop in a workplace and how easy it is to be carried along.

    Leaving aside the unfortunate culture of claims and the equally unfortunate culture of ass-covering, which is almost as bad for a moment.

    You are taking the right approach. No matter what the situation, being accountable and taking responsibility for your actions is the best course to take in the long run. Even if the others involved are playing dirty, you have to live with yourself,and the read to redemption following any sort of negative behavior will be tough. However, if you are sincere, you are taking the right course of action.

    Good Luck.


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    #42
    massey168
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭massey168


    Ladjacket wrote: »
    I know what I have done is wrong, and I want to make amends for it.

    Actually all your posts come across much more like,

    "I've been caught red handed, now how do I get out of it, perhaps I can smear her/deflect it a bit to help me slip my neck out of the noose"


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    #43
    massey168
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭massey168


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    Make a counter claim about the stuff she said, it's time to go to war I'm afraid, she was in the wrong too.

    I've been in a similar situation unfortunately where someone took the stuff said to heart yet also said some pretty bad stuff, we all just laughed it off until one day one of them complained. Obviously if any of us had known that it was upsetting him we would never have said anything.

    Learned a lesson then, people you work with aren't your buddies.

    It ended grand for me, made counter claims and it ended in apologies etc but you are in a harder position as a woman has taken a complaint.
    Bluefoam wrote: »
    OP, I'm sorry to say it, but you may have said too much already. You have spoken to your supervisor & have told them you would like to apologise? It sounds as though they brought you in 'for a friendly discussion' and maybe got more info out of you than you should have given. If you have expressed the need to give an apology, that is an admission of guilt. This can mean severe disciplinary action and even losing your job if I'm correct. The one saving grace you (may) have, is that at any dsciplinary meeting, you are entitled to have a witness present. If they did not offer you this option, you can claim that the meeting was illegitimate and you were forced to say things you did not mean or you can claim you never said them at all.

    Its time to be very defensive. It sounds like you are more concerned about your collegue than yourself, remember that her action can possibly get you fired & your supervisor has already said that she wants to make the action official - so she is looking for results!

    Dig up as much against her as you can & make a counter complaint ASAP. If she has sent you any inappropriate emails, use them! If she is complaining about a number of people, make sure you all support each others stories and make sure your story does not inciminate yourself.

    Do not admit any guilt! That is up to her to prove.

    This should be renamed the how to be a clever bully and get away with it thread.


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    #44
    Ladjacket
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Ladjacket


    massey168 wrote: »
    This should be renamed the how to bully and get away with it thread.

    I know you think that I am some form of sub-human bullying scum who does not probably even deserve an opinion but i think you are a disgrace, your posts on this thread have not been in any way helpful to anybody at all and from the start you seem intent on making remarks that will cause a reaction from way up there on your high horse.

    And the day that you make a mistake, i hope that you will have people who will be helpful towards you, but something tells me that given your current attitude, there won't be too many of those around.


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    #45
    massey168
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭massey168


    Ladjacket wrote: »

    I know you think that I am some form of sub-human bullying scum who does not probably even deserve an opinion but i think you are a disgrace, your posts on this thread have not been in any way helpful to anybody at all and from the start you seem intent on making remarks that will cause a reaction from way up there on your high horse.

    And the day that you make a mistake, i hope that you will have people who will be helpful towards you, but something tells me that given your current attitude, there won't be too many of those around.

    Now we're getting flashes of the real you.
    You can play to the Gallery all you like,
    I'm not a wee woman trying to earn a living at your workplace, so save your abuse and threats there's a good lad.


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    #46
    Ladjacket
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Ladjacket


    massey168 wrote: »
    Now we're getting flashes of the real you.
    I'm not a wee woman trying to earn a living at your workplace, so save your abuse and threats there's a good lad.

    Er, at no point in my last post did I use any form of abuse/threats at all towards you.

    I am pointing out that since the beginning of this thread, any post you have made has been inflammatory and seeking to cause controversy.

    Have you ever made a mistake? And if so, how did you deal with it?


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    #47
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,475 ✭✭✭weisses


    Ladjacket wrote: »
    Have you ever made a mistake? And if so, how did you deal with it?

    trolls dont make mistakes (they think)


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    #48
    jordainius
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭jordainius


    I can't believe some of the things that have been said to the op, particularly some of the negative assumptions made by certain posters about the op and the abuse he's getting from certain posters...


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    #49
    massey168
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭massey168


    Ladjacket wrote: »
    Er, at no point in my last post did I use any form of abuse/threats at all towards you.

    . . .
    Ladjacket wrote: »
    . . .i think you are a disgrace . . .i hope that you will have people who will be helpful towards you, but something tells me that given your current attitude, there won't be too many of those around.
    Ladjacket wrote: »
    Have you ever made a mistake? And if so, how did you deal with it?

    It's very simple.
    I don't bully people under the guise of 'slagging', or try to get away with what I've done the wrong.


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    #50
    massey168
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭massey168


    weisses wrote: »
    trolls dont make mistakes (they think)

    Says the man advising him to make a counter claim against the victim.


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    #51
    Ladjacket
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Ladjacket


    in that case then Massey, as you do not bully people, I guess you will have no need to comment on this thread any longer then - I don't think you need to comment any longer about what your opinions of me are.

    Thanks for your contributions since the thread began, I did not find them helpful at all, but thanks all the same.

    And as you have said, you don't bully people - but it is interesting that a number of people have commented on the negative remarks made by certain people on here.

    Thanks again.


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    #52
    Chessala
    Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭Chessala


    I find it interesting how fast some people judge the OP on this.

    We do NOT know the full story, probably not even half. I suspect many of the negative comments towards the OP are from people that have been bullied in the past in one way or another so I get where you are coming from.

    I personally don't think the OP should make "war" here, he has been in the wrong and admits it, why try to cover it up? I would speak to your colleagues that are also accused though and find out their intentions. Maybe they didn't just see the comments as slagging and you went with it in good humor, not thinking much of it.

    Still, for the future I hope you will consider how others feel a bit more. People are often hurt more easily than they want to admit and often see "joining in" as their only protection, what else are they supposed to do? Despite what your boss said I would try to apologize to the person in question. If she genuinely is only hurt by what happened and a real victim she should react to it. If she doesn't personally I think something is wrong.

    I think in this case it might even be worth the try to send her an email so there is a written record of your apology. However, be very careful to not make any accusations or bad remarks if you take that route. Make sure to explain yourself but don't put direct blame on her along the line of saying that she encouraged you. In general, don't say anything that could be used against you.

    I'm sorry for what happened to you and the woman and I hope you can find a solution.


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    #53
    Wanderer2010
    Registered Users Posts: 6,740 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    @ LadJacket I would just bail out if i were you, you are not going to get much sympathy here for your situation. And although I appreciate your clarifying the situation with your department, most people (myself included) arre just going to see your first post and its descriptions of "being thick skinned and "mutual banter" and just see it as an unhealthy working environment where bullying breeds. And i dont believe for one second that management arent aware of it because in most compainies, reputations go straight to management and they either take action and nip it in the bud or turn a blind eye and act like a coward, allowing their employees to maintain a nasty atmosphere. It seems like the latter in your case.

    Do you think you are going to get fired or warned over this, thats the real question?


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    #54
    dellas1979
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭dellas1979


    Ok OP, as said already, the problem is the picture you painted in the first few posts. Thats what she will want to paint also, the "gang of lads". But your 3rd or 4th posts changes the story.

    You are going to have to be a lot quicker and smarter than this. Is it your job/reputation you are trying to protect. If she was fully gung-hoe in the middle of all this, you need to start speaking up and getting your message across! I get a feeling of "oh but shes a woman" impression off you. She's a woman who joined in in the banter. A woman who engaged in the banter. A woman who initiated banter. Im a woman and I do the exact samethings with my workmates.

    You painted a picture of a woman, literally horrified face on her, detracting into a corner, upset, leave me alone, stop at me person when it doesnt seem it was the case at all. This is the impression you are giving. I dont understand why. Maybe it is guilt or something or that she is indeed a woman. I dont know, but (speaking as a lady and all) stop seeing her as "poor mary, I shouldnt have said that". She is out to get something, and its up to you to tell the truth of the matter.


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    #55
    Ladjacket
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Ladjacket


    @ Wanderer - I do genuinely feel that there will be severe repurcussions for what has happened. What they will be i do not know - however I am pretty confident that management will be taking a firm line on this.

    @Dellas - i do see where you are coming from here. Another female in the dept remarked before that the lady in question loved the attention and really played up to it. She did not detract into a corner and the rest of the dept will undoubtedly echo that sentiment.

    It is getting very messy at this stage - rest assured that i can indeed see the error of my ways so to speak and see how what I may have viewed as 'banter' was not like that in the cold light of day. But as a few people have said, it is easy to get carried away in the slagging that goes on.


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    #56
    Wanderer2010
    Registered Users Posts: 6,740 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    @ Ladjacket, yes but do you personally feel like you are going to get fired or at least a final written warning for this? Because from the sound of your departments culture it seems that it is full of untouchable people who treat people badly, knowing that management turn a blind eye. Thats the real question here, if you genuinely believe you will be punished for this. Have there been similar situations in the past where people make bullying claims and how have they been dealt with? Company culture says it all at the end of the day.


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    #57
    Ladjacket
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Ladjacket


    i think that in the past, any situations where something like this would have arisen, it was a case of both parties ironing out the problem and moving on after apologies etc. As the lady wishes to pursue a formal procedure, an investigation has now been launched which I guess means that a sacking would be the ultimate sanction.


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    #58
    skregs
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭skregs


    Ladjacket wrote: »
    I don't know what to do in this situation, obviously I would be first to apologise
    Ladjacket wrote: »
    Now, I am totally aware as I have said that if I upset the lady and made her feel intimidated t come to work, I will hold my hands up and apologise.

    03-03-2012, 23:47
    Ladjacket wrote: »
    I have already been with my manager and expressed my regret that this has taken place and said that i am more that willing to apologise to the lady for my actions.

    03-03-2012, 23:51
    Ladjacket wrote: »
    I have already offered my apologies
    Ladjacket wrote: »
    I am not asking to be let off the hook, I have repeatedly said here that I am willing to apologise for my actions - absolutely and unequivocally.
    Ladjacket wrote: »
    if she had even said to me 'look your behaviour recently has made me a bit upset, i would have apologised without question to her.
    Ladjacket wrote: »
    I then offered to meet with the lady and apologise

    You're a small man, OP. You keep saying you're willing to apologise and yet you clearly haven't, despite working in a small dept of 7-8 people where you would see this girl every day. You're willing to admit you were wrong to everyone except the woman you were bullying, and your get out is that your manager advised against it? If you had any decency, you would have unequivocally apologised to her one-on-one already, and she probably would have dropped it.
    Instead you've tried to weasel out by saying she's as bad as you, and that you would apologise but you just haven't for some reason.

    I would suggest you man up as soon as possible


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    #59
    actuallylike
    Registered Users Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    Ladjacket wrote: »
    i think that in the past, any situations where something like this would have arisen, it was a case of both parties ironing out the problem and moving on after apologies etc. As the lady wishes to pursue a formal procedure, an investigation has now been launched which I guess means that a sacking would be the ultimate sanction.

    Easy now, don't jump the gun. Don't think they can sack you straight off the bat. For situations like this isn't there a route to follow as in first a verbal warning, then a written, then a sacking?


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    #60
    Wanderer2010
    Registered Users Posts: 6,740 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    Ladjacket wrote: »
    i think that in the past, any situations where something like this would have arisen, it was a case of both parties ironing out the problem and moving on after apologies etc. As the lady wishes to pursue a formal procedure, an investigation has now been launched which I guess means that a sacking would be the ultimate sanction.

    But you dont seem at all worried that you are going to get sacked, otherwise your previous posts would be filled with worry over how to pay bills etc. It really does come accross here that this woman joined in the banter as her only defense and it became too much so she launched a formal complaint and now you are annoyed that she has rocked the boat instead of "going with the flow" of the nasty banter and slagging which you openly admit occurs in your department, I think you should be severly disciplined for this, maybe even fired. Its a disgraceful way to treat people. But sadly since you say that in the past people just moved on you are probably going to get off the hook.

    Its the woman i feel sorry for in this, what a scummy place to work .


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    #61
    Ladjacket
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Ladjacket


    skregs wrote: »
    03-03-2012, 23:47


    03-03-2012, 23:51








    You're a small man, OP. You keep saying you're willing to apologise and yet you clearly haven't, despite working in a small dept of 7-8 people where you would see this girl every day. You're willing to admit you were wrong to everyone except the woman you were bullying, and your get out is that your manager advised against it? If you had any decency, you would have unequivocally apologised to her one-on-one already, and she probably would have dropped it.
    Instead you've tried to weasel out by saying she's as bad as you, and that you would apologise but you just haven't for some reason.

    I would suggest you man up as soon as possible

    This came to light on Thursday - the lady has not been at work since as she works shifts.Given that an investigation is ongoing and I was advised by my superior not to have contact with the lady, i decided that calling or texting her outside of work hours was not a good idea.

    I am not trying to weasel out of anything, I have tried my best to give an accurate description of the story and answer whatever queries people may have ok?


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