Irish women earn 17% less than Irish men

Mr.Biscuits

smash wrote: »

That's a great article.

Here's an interview with the guy quoted, Warren Farrell - where he discusses his research further:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpYXn1e2PHg

smash wrote: »

To be honest I think The National Women's Council should be questioned about why they even got involved in that RTE piece without decent figures to back back it up.

'Why'?

Well, sure isn't it yet another oppurtunity for them to attempt to portray Irish women as being victims of the ever opressive patriarchy.

What gets me is that we the tax payers, fund these clowns.

When they're not coming out with rubbish like this, they are running around get crisp adverts banned ffs.

When it comes to being funded, they should get the big toe of the Irish Government at this stage, as I don't see them addressing too many genuine issues of inequality in society, just merely seeking adavantages for their own end instead that, rather than address inequality, are more likely in-fact, to cause it.

Wanderer2010

Sorry to raise this old-ish thread but I have been reading through the thread and I have seen a few comments suggesting than women take more sick leave than men and they are out for longer, but thats definitely not always the case. In my company the men take lots of sick leave and take the p!ss when doing so- the majority of them take their full 15 days paid sick leave a year, a few fake Force Majure leave when they are hungover/going to a wedding/not bothered etc. To imply that only women do this is completely wrong. Im not saying anything about the pay difference but surely some posters here, some of whom are managers, have seen the men be just as crafty and sneaky when taking sick leave. If it happens in my company (which it does year in year out) then surely it occurs in other companies??

saiint

they may earn 17% less then men

doesnt stop them from working

another media thing from a female wacko who thinks women should be professional football players too

BrianD3

If there is a gender pay gap for equal work then women selecting partners based on earnings and status is probably a big factor. In effect, women's sexual preferences result in men earning more than they do.

Low status man with little money = less sex for that man. The solution? Get more money and status. Women do not have this motivation/pressure.

Laughable article in last Saturday's Irish indo which relates to this. Would this have been printed or even written had it been a man describing the occupations of his past and current girlfriends.

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/love-sex/melissa-kite-on-finding-mr-right-at-39-3147164.html

Melissa Kite on finding Mr Right at 39

I could sum up my long-term relationships thus: army officer, journalist, barrister, politician, stockbroker, international businessman, roofer.

Even the so-called "ordinary" man - the roofer - is doing well for himself it seems

he was having a spot of bother at the stable yard where he kept his thoroughbred.

he is self-made, having come up the hard way to run his own roofing firm

grindle

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

To imply that only women do this is completely wrong. Im not saying anything about the pay difference but surely some posters here, some of whom are managers, have seen the men be just as crafty and sneaky when taking sick leave. If it happens in my company (which it does year in year out) then surely it occurs in other companies??

Some men, yes.
Over nine-ish years, out of nine men, one took the piss (11%), out of fifteen women, nine took the piss (60%! Way higher than I thought it would be).

Bad luck? Maybe, though we always tended to hire the same sort of person, the ones that seemed less like grumpy, unpersonable gowls in the interview. Do grumpy gowls get sick less?

Representative of a certain industry (retail)? Quite possibly.

Besides the sick leave though, maternity is a huge pisser in the pay-equality scale, and anyone asking for women to be on-par, 0% difference, is basically asking for women to get paid more than men while in the position to work, in order to offset the unbalancing of the figures that motherhood requires.

Helix

the better you are at your job the more you get paid, if anything this just shows women aren't as good at yet another thing :P

Madam_X

The solution would be for nobody to have children.

py2006

It is illegal to pay a woman less than a man for the same job.

So any talk of women getting paid less is utter nonsense.

previous user

Well to make up for it women get those fragrant soaps and and hand creams, so its swings and round abouts really :pac:

Eoin

py2006 wrote: »

It is illegal to pay a woman less than a man for the same job.

So any talk of women getting paid less is utter nonsense.

I don't think it's nonsense, as there are lots of factors involved with salaries. You can't pay a woman less because she's a woman, but that's not to say that 2 people (male or female) who do the same job are getting the exact same pay.

Sleepy

Wonder did they account for those out of work at the moment? As far as I'm aware men are seriously outnumbering women on the job-seekers benefits. Maybe that's discrimination too? Or is it just a result of their choices of career (largely construction related) that has them on the dole queues?

one4on

smash wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0302/gender.html

Lets break this down here... Nowhere in the article does it say that the survey looked at people of comparable roles. And in fact it even states "women in Ireland are more likely than men to work in low paid and precarious work", which is a choice!

Then there's "including discrimination against women, undervaluing of women's skills and the low number of women in senior and leadership positions" which really annoys be because I think it's pure bs. People in higher positions get there because of their merits, not gender.

Thoughts?

Women in Ireland earn less because they work less and do less over time. It's not that an employer is paying a woman 17% less for the same job, if that were the case he'd be kicked straight to the supreme court.

smash

Eoin wrote: »

I don't think it's nonsense, as there are lots of factors involved with salaries. You can't pay a woman less because she's a woman, but that's not to say that 2 people (male or female) who do the same job are getting the exact same pay.

one4on wrote: »

Women in Ireland earn less because they work less and do less over time. It's not that an employer is paying a woman 17% less for the same job, if that were the case he'd be kicked straight to the supreme court.

Do people forget that there are negotiations involved in signing a contract when you start a job?

Basically a company has a budget for a role which has a level of flexibility. If a man and a woman go for 2 jobs and one negotiates better than the other, it's not sexist. And it's not illegal.

py2006

Eoin wrote: »

I don't think it's nonsense, as there are lots of factors involved with salaries. You can't pay a woman less because she's a woman, but that's not to say that 2 people (male or female) who do the same job are getting the exact same pay.

Ok, same job in same company/business.

Shenshen

one4on wrote: »

Women in Ireland earn less because they work less and do less over time. It's not that an employer is paying a woman 17% less for the same job, if that were the case he'd be kicked straight to the supreme court.

Not necessarily.
As was pointed out earlier, an employer cannot pay one employee less than another because she is female.
The employer can, however, pay someone less based on plenty of other reasons, and salaries within one team in one company can vary significantly (up to 20%, as I recently found out)
The reason most employers are not brought to court for this is among other things that few people know how much their colleagues are actually earning, so there is just no way to even know if they're discriminated against.

I do think that the biggest reason for this discrimination is that the employer will pay as little as they can get away with, and men are more likely to demand more than women.
Once you demand more in salary negotiations and reviews, you are likely to receive more.

Eoin

py2006 wrote: »

Ok, same job in same company/business.

Even in that scenario, you take into account experience and qualifications etc so it's very unlikely (in most private companies anyway) that everyone with the same job title is on the same salary.

Pedant

Women want equal pay!?

*Monocle pops from eye*

Next they'll be demanding universal suffrage!

Sappa

In my Job we have the chance to put in a lot of overtime.
I choose to to it every week maybe a couple of other lads every second week do the same.
Never do the women at our workplace put in any overtime and they are the first out the door.
Off course my salary will reflect the fact I put in 15 more hrs per week than a female colleague.
We have 2 on maternity leave at the moment another looking forward to hers,it's seriously disruptive as we are under pressure and they couldn't give a toss.

Roadend

Women talk ****e in work at a minimum 17% more, I think it stands to reason they get paid 17% less

py2006

Eoin wrote: »

Even in that scenario, you take into account experience and qualifications etc so it's very unlikely (in most private companies anyway) that everyone with the same job title is on the same salary.

I am aware of various scenarios but a blanket statement saying women get paid less than a man is wrong.

If an equally experienced/qualified woman and a man both land the same job in the same company the pay rate will be the same.

Owen_S

There really isn't any argument regarding this 'study'. Earning 17% less on average doesn't suggest any inequality - inequality would be earning 17% less for doing the exact same work, which isn't the case.

smash

Eoin wrote: »

it's very unlikely (in most private companies anyway) that everyone with the same job title is on the same salary.

Public sector employees don't seem to understand this.

Sappa wrote: »

We have 2 on maternity leave at the moment another looking forward to hers,it's seriously disruptive as we are under pressure and they couldn't give a toss.

In fairness, why give a toss about company commitments when you're pregnant? Your health is more important.

py2006 wrote: »

If an equally experienced/qualified woman and a man both land the same job in the same company the pay rate will be the same.

Where are you getting this from?

one4on

Sappa wrote: »

We have 2 on maternity leave at the moment another looking forward to hers

The maternity leave jibe is also a factor. When a woman leaves for 9 months or so she arrives back with 9 months of seniority lost in relation to her male counterparts, that's a huge factor in all of this. Employers and hight up people are also afraid to employ a woman in a high up position for fear of a senior, high-earning female jumping on the maternity leave gravy train and costing the company a serious amount of money in her absence with no work being done. Women's rights advocates are often their own worst enemies at times.

Shenshen

Sappa wrote: »

In my Job we have the chance to put in a lot of overtime.
I choose to to it every week maybe a couple of other lads every second week do the same.
Never do the women at our workplace put in any overtime and they are the first out the door.
Off course my salary will reflect the fact I put in 15 more hrs per week than a female colleague.
We have 2 on maternity leave at the moment another looking forward to hers,it's seriously disruptive as we are under pressure and they couldn't give a toss.

In our workplace, it's pretty much exactly reversed.
We do overtime at month ends and quarter ends, and it's usually the girls who stay as the lads need to go to GAA practice, which they cannot possibly miss.

There are a few ladies with cihldren in the office, but apart from their maternity leaves, you would never know. One of the male managers, however, regularly brings in his 2 young sons, letting them run riot in the office while he's on calls.

The majority of the women working here do make more than their husbands, though, so they'd be the ones looking after the family incomce, which may well explain why they;re always happy to get a bit of extra work for a bit of extra money.

Shenshen

py2006 wrote: »

I am aware of various scenarios but a blanket statement saying women get paid less than a man is wrong.

If an equally experienced/qualified woman and a man both land the same job in the same company the pay rate will be the same.

Why would you think that?
When I started my job, the salary wasn't disclosed on the job description, I had to negotiate it.
And I know for a fact that I did some better negotiations than some of my co-workers. One of them was on just about under 20% less than me (which I only found out because she recently left and told me how much she'd earned here).

smash

one4on wrote: »

Employers and hight up people are also afraid to employ a woman in a high up position for fear of a senior, high-earning female jumping on the maternity leave gravy train and costing the company a serious amount of money in her absence with no work being done. Women's rights advocates are often their own worst enemies at times.

I'd like to point out that maternity cover is paid at the company's discretion though. It doesn't have to cost them.

Shenshen

one4on wrote: »

The maternity leave jibe is also a factor. When a woman leaves for 9 months or so she arrives back with 9 months of seniority lost in relation to her male counterparts, that's a huge factor in all of this. Employers and hight up people are also afraid to employ a woman in a high up position for fear of a senior, high-earning female jumping on the maternity leave gravy train and costing the company a serious amount of money in her absence with no work being done. Women's rights advocates are often their own worst enemies at times.

9 months?
Wow.
I've never been in any company where anyone took more than 6 months...

Shenshen

smash wrote: »

I'd like to point out that maternity cover is paid at the company's discretion though. It doesn't have to cost them.

I think a serious improvement to the whole seniority problem would be to make it illegal to deny a man paternity leave.
Not make it compulsory or anything, just force companies to have the same policies for men and women.

Jester252

Shenshen wrote: »

Why would you think that?
When I started my job, the salary wasn't disclosed on the job description, I had to negotiate it.
And I know for a fact that I did some better negotiations than some of my co-workers. One of them was on just about under 20% less than me (which I only found out because she recently left and told me how much she'd earned here).

Damn Either your good or she was terrible at negotiations

Shenshen

Jester252 wrote: »

Damn Either your good or she was terrible at negotiations

I'm good.
Mostly, I knew that I had to negotiate, she didn't really know that. She just took what she was given, and as the individual salaries are confidential, she never knew that despite her seniority, I was earning that much more.
Which is rather sad, really, because she was brilliant in her job. I would have told her sooner had I suspected it.

Sappa

Shenshen wrote: »

Sappa wrote: »

In my Job we have the chance to put in a lot of overtime.
I choose to to it every week maybe a couple of other lads every second week do the same.
Never do the women at our workplace put in any overtime and they are the first out the door.
Off course my salary will reflect the fact I put in 15 more hrs per week than a female colleague.
We have 2 on maternity leave at the moment another looking forward to hers,it's seriously disruptive as we are under pressure and they couldn't give a toss.

In our workplace, it's pretty much exactly reversed.
We do overtime at month ends and quarter ends, and it's usually the girls who stay as the lads need to go to GAA practice, which they cannot possibly miss.

There are a few ladies with cihldren in the office, but apart from their maternity leaves, you would never know. One of the male managers, however, regularly brings in his 2 young sons, letting them run riot in the office while he's on calls.

The majority of the women working here do make more than their husbands, though, so they'd be the ones looking after the family incomce, which may well explain why they;re always happy to get a bit of extra work for a bit of extra money.

When I worked overseas a lot of the female staff took any overtime given but I notice in Ireland in my present job and ones before this is never the case.
When they are there they seem to work just as well,I suppose we shouldn't begrudge them on the maternity leave(future pension payers bring created).
What I do notice is often an extreme competitiveness between the female workers to outshine in dress code and appearance and also a fair amount of unfriendly competition.
The fellas on the other hand just slag the **** out of each other but it's not malicious.

one4on

Shenshen wrote: »

I think a serious improvement to the whole seniority problem would be to make it illegal to deny a man paternity leave.
Not make it compulsory or anything, just force companies to have the same policies for men and women.

Can someone PLEASE explain how maternity benefit works. If I am an employer, do I have to pay ANYTHING to my female who jumps on the maternity gravy train?

If it is discretionary, then why would any employer in their right mind pay it?

py2006

smash wrote: »

Where are you getting this from?

According to the Equal Status Act you cannot discriminate on 9 grounds. Gender being one of them.

Therefore if both are equally qualified/experienced an employer cannot offer more money to one over the other based on gender.

http://www.tcd.ie/equality/pdf/Guide_to_the_Equal_Status_Acts_2000-2008[1].pdf

Shenshen wrote: »

Why would you think that?
When I started my job, the salary wasn't disclosed on the job description, I had to negotiate it.
And I know for a fact that I did some better negotiations than some of my co-workers. One of them was on just about under 20% less than me (which I only found out because she recently left and told me how much she'd earned here).

Perhaps, the 'salary negotiable' thing is a way around that or a way for an employer to pay less generally.

Shenshen

one4on wrote: »

Can someone PLEASE explain how maternity benefit works. If I am an employer, do I have to pay ANYTHING to my female who jumps on the maternity gravy train?

If it is discretionary, then why would any employer in their right mind pay it?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/maternity_leave.html

I found that for many employers, providing maternity leave pay is regarded as a benefit that can be used to attracked skilled labour. Pretty much like sick pay, and bonuses.

Shenshen

py2006 wrote: »

According to the Equal Status Act you cannot discriminate on 9 grounds. Gender being one of them.

Therefore if both are equally qualified/experienced an employer cannot offer more money to one over the other based on gender.

http://www.tcd.ie/equality/pdf/Guide_to_the_Equal_Status_Acts_2000-2008[1].pdf

As has been pointed out numerous times now, employers do not have to cite gender as a reason for discirimination. They have plenty of other reasons at their disposal.

smash

py2006 wrote: »

According to the Equal Status Act you cannot discriminate on 9 grounds. Gender being one of them.

Therefore if both are equally qualified/experienced an employer cannot offer more money to one over the other based on gender.

http://www.tcd.ie/equality/pdf/Guide_to_the_Equal_Status_Acts_2000-2008[1].pdf





Perhaps, the 'salary negotiable' thing is a way around that or a way for an employer to pay less generally.

But do you not understand that they don't have to pay people the same. One can accept a first offer, the other can negotiate their salary.

py2006

smash wrote: »

But do you not understand that they don't have to pay people the same. One can accept a first offer, the other can negotiate their salary.

Yea, I am not overly familiar with the negotiating scenario as any job I have gone for had a specified salary or rate of pay.

Realistically, though I don't believe an employer here would deliberately pay somebody less because they are a woman which is suggested by this thread.

As you say, if somebody is naive about negotiating, then that is a different situation.

Eoin

py2006 wrote: »

I am aware of various scenarios but a blanket statement saying women get paid less than a man is wrong.

If an equally experienced/qualified woman and a man both land the same job in the same company the pay rate will be the same.

Well, sort of. I've no reason to not believe that the average male wage is higher than the average female wage. But I do think that there are more factors at play.

I don't have a link as I heard it on a radio show, but one of the studies showed that men are more likely to commute further and on average work longer hours. I don't know if the headline figures are based per working hour, or per annum.

The government incentivise the mother and not the father to take time out from the workplace to care for their child. This can't help but have a knock-on effect.

I'm just not convinced that the full difference in average wages are because of legitimate reasons.

Shenshen wrote: »

I think a serious improvement to the whole seniority problem would be to make it illegal to deny a man paternity leave.
Not make it compulsory or anything, just force companies to have the same policies for men and women.

It's been done to death here, but I completely agree.

Shenshen wrote:

9 months?
Wow.
I've never been in any company where anyone took more than 6 months...

I have, and my wife will be taking a few months unpaid leave. With crèche fees running at the guts of a grand a month, you're not always saving a huge amount of cash by going back to work once maternity leave benefits stop.

one4on wrote: »

Can someone PLEASE explain how maternity benefit works. If I am an employer, do I have to pay ANYTHING to my female who jumps on the maternity gravy train?

If it is discretionary, then why would any employer in their right mind pay it?

No, you don't. Why would any employer ever pay more than the minimum wage or give benefits like pension, healthcare etc?

Stiffler2

Simples

women live longer than men, therefor get to work longer since they live longer and so actually they do earn the same as us.

I can do maths me



Braniac

Sea Filly

It's all we deserve because we ugly.

A_Sober_Paddy

Well I think these kind of studies and stories only cause trouble because they don't actually look at comparable jobs.

The study is inflammatory to say the least, I bet you'll have someone on a talk show over the coming days saying its a disgrace that women earn less than men. Well if more women work in shops and behind the bar, how can they ever expect to earn the same as a retail store manager for example.

If these studies are to be carried out, why not do them properly...

Take women and men in the same role in the same companies across the country and you'll get findings that are actually relevant and not just inflammatory...

Suryavarman

Down below is a good video on why women earn less than men. It goes through the various factors that cause the wage gap such as choosing different career paths and taking time out to have children.

DERPY HOOFS

Women are lazy and get sick alot with their hormones and baby making.
A man can do more heavy lifting so we are overall better and we can use maps and drive better than women so we deserve the extra cash

enda1

I only earn 14% more than my girlfriend, not quite the 20% as the article suggests! Must get a better paid job!

DERPY HOOFS

Or get a girlfriend with a lesser job

Stark

I think any study that compares rates of pay also needs to compare conditions. Personally I'd much prefer a job paying €50k a year that offered me a 35 hour working week with 30 days vacation leave and flexible work arrangements over a €70k a year job that came with 60hours a week/21 vacation days for example. Other men might value the higher salary more and tend towards the latter job.

Now if after accounting for differences in responsibilities and conditions, women still come out getting paid less, then there's an issue.

dodderangler

For those lucky few that are workin I'm sorry but this should be a lot higher
Men do a lot more manual labour than a woman does
Men do jobs that women are incapable of doing due to being bigger and stronger physically
I've seen women mechanics and although they are good at their job when it comes to lifting and the likes they can't do it alone
So I do think men should get higher wages at certain jobs

Stark

dodderangler wrote: »

For those lucky few that are workin I'm sorry but this should be a lot higher
Men do a lot more manual labour than a woman does
Men do jobs that women are incapable of doing due to being bigger and stronger physically
I've seen women mechanics and although they are good at their job when it comes to lifting and the likes they can't do it alone
So I do think men should get higher wages at certain jobs

What a pile of ****.

DonQuay1

smash wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0302/gender.html

Lets break this down here... Nowhere in the article does it say that the survey looked at people of comparable roles. And in fact it even states "women in Ireland are more likely than men to work in low paid and precarious work", which is a choice!

Then there's "including discrimination against women, undervaluing of women's skills and the low number of women in senior and leadership positions" which really annoys be because I think it's pure bs. People in higher positions get there because of their merits, not gender.

Thoughts?

Off the top of my head - didn't the female 'grunting' Wimbledon players want comparable prize money for less work? 3 sets for women - 5 sets for men.

Is that what women regard as equal???

Madam_X

No.