Velodrome Ireland

Dermot Illogical

spyderski wrote: »

If CI had nominated Pat McQuaid we'd be well on the way to getting a velodrome......

3rd time lucky sort of a thing?

morana

spyderski wrote: »

If CI had nominated Pat McQuaid we'd be well on the way to getting a velodrome......

god that brings back memories!!!!

Amz

Beasty wrote: »

I think you can safely assume that Mr Irvine's exploits have given this project fresh momentum

You should also be aware that, as already pointed out by morana, Denis Toomey, who led the Irish Paracycling team to the Olympics, is strongly behind this. The paracyclists would gain massively from such a facility (and for info, Denis has put his hat in the ring for the CI presidency which will be voted on at next month's AGM)

It would be awesome for Paracycling!

Costs mount up so quickly, for those of us not currently in receipt of funding the idea of going abroad for training is a little daunting.

What are Denis' chances to get the CI Presidency do you reckon, or is that for another thread?

Beasty

Amz wrote: »

What are Denis' chances to get the CI Presidency do you reckon, or is that for another thread?

It is for another thread, but I am currently unaware of any other candidates

kumate_champ07

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Beasty's right. British Cycling last year was given €30 million by the British government, which is three times as much as our government allocated to all governing sports bodies, so realistically with the FAI, IRFU, GAA, CI etc they probably only saw €2 million or so of funding.

Asking for a €130 million velodrome is definitely a non-runner until cycling in this country is recognised as a top sport.

The GAA is well funded from match ticket sales anyway, its not like they need a handout. rugby is dominant in most private/fee paying/boarding schools who have their own gyms,coaches and playing areas. theres no Irish schools with their own cycle team and track.

Tallaght wasnt going to have any seating, it was supposed to save on sending athletes abroad, the number 1 priority was elite riders, not the average joe who wants to ride a velodrome. but it could have been something for the community too.

heres a few ideas I had:

a bike friendly cafe with space inside for bikes

small shop selling tyres,tubes,allen keys/small tool kits, centre is close to Wicklow cycle routes

shower facilites, commuters could leave their bikes in the centre in storage, shower, coffee and breakfast then off to work in nearby businesses/industrial estates

a workshop for trainee race mechanics

some kind of membership with discounts off velodrome time/food, get 1hr free for every 9hrs booked.

friday night events during winter, free in with beverages and hot food available to buy. limited capicty for spectators but not many come to sundrive anyway, possibly 50 seats?


alot of clubs would use the velodrome during winter months, a winter league could be run. a league for local schools too

kumate_champ07

spyderski wrote: »

If CI had nominated Pat McQuaid we'd be well on the way to getting a velodrome......

its a joke, the man was/is head of global cycling and looks after his close business associates/family, but never got his own country a velodrome

Beasty

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

its a joke, the man was/is head of global cycling and looks after his close business associates/family, but never got his own country a velodrome

It would have been much more of a joke if he had. That would be completely inappropriate abuse of his position

kumate_champ07

Beasty wrote: »

It would have been much more of a joke if he had. That would be completely inappropriate abuse of his position

not necessarily. it could have been privately funded. Dennis O Brien pays a 6figure sum for our football manager, hes also c____t* tho

(7 letter word)*

Beasty

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

not necessarily. it could have been privately funded. Dennis O Brien pays a 6figure sum for our football manager, hes also c____t* tho

(7 letter word)*

The President of the UCI should not use his position to influence which countries get particular facilities, and should certainly not be working in the interests of "his" federation ahead of others. That is abuse of power.

morana

Beasty wrote: »

It is for another thread, but I am currently unaware of any other candidates

Ahemmmm! I am

wav1

morana wrote: »

Ahemmmm! I am

So am I [aware of at LEAST one]

wav1

wav1 wrote: »

So am I [aware of at LEAST one]

There was very nearly another one a few months ago,when this writer had a ''little'' too much refreshment one night and ''nearly'' considered it after some encouragement.Then i woke up and it came back to me.ouch

morana

wav1 wrote: »

There was very nearly another one a few months ago,when this writer had a ''little'' too much refreshment one night and ''nearly'' considered it after some encouragement.Then i woke up and it came back to me.ouch

Well the writer would be ideal for the position.

DubVelo

Seaneh wrote: »

By "proper" I just meant indoor, wooden, 250m track that can be used all year and to a decent standard.

I wasn't really aiming for something like Manchester or London. Just a usable indoor track.

This.

The Olympic velopark is hardly a fair or relevant comparison.

How much did Falun cost?

And what's all this 'just a training centre for elite athletes' attitude about?
The great thing about the older track in London is that anyone can roll up on a any Saturday morning for an introductory group lesson with a few little races at the end.
This obviously has the knock on effect of promoting interest in the sport, and spectating and finding new talent.

Squidgy Black

DubVelo wrote: »

This.

The Olympic velopark is hardly a fair or relevant comparison.

How much did Falun cost?

And what's all this 'just a training centre for elite athletes' attitude about?
The great thing about the older track in London is that anyone can roll up on a any Saturday morning for an introductory group lesson with a few little races at the end.
This obviously has the knock on effect of promoting interest in the sport, and spectating and finding new talent.

Herne Hill? It's basically their equivalent of Sundrive, an outdoor track.

You can roll up on a Saturday during the summer and do an accredation at Sundrive too, I don't know what the story is during the winter now.

The idea behind the indoor velodrome was that it would be a place for the Irish team to practice, give lads like Irvine and the other national competitors like the Paralympics squads etc a decent setup to train in, so they wouldn't have to train in Manchester most of the time.

DubVelo

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Herne Hill? It's basically their equivalent of Sundrive, an outdoor track.

You can roll up on a Saturday during the summer and do an accredation at Sundrive too, I don't know what the story is during the winter now.

It is that. But my point is it's open, accessible and welcoming to people interested in the sport. It's hard enough to even find any information about Sundrive or track cycling in Ireland and by all accounts it's a bleak place with no facilities that's subject to vandalism and your car gets broken into. That's all I've been able to glean from the web.

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

The idea behind the indoor velodrome was that it would be a place for the Irish team to practice, give lads like Irvine and the other national competitors like the Paralympics squads etc a decent setup to train in, so they wouldn't have to train in Manchester most of the time.

That's obvious, and all to the good. But you're kind of proving my point by coming straight back with that. To make such a facility worthwhile and value for money it also needs to function as a promotional tool for the sport and for recruiting young up and coming athletes.

I'm all for providing our national team the best possible facilities but at the end of the day they are a very small number of people compared to the very large number of people who would love to get to use a facility like this.

Squidgy Black

DubVelo wrote: »

It is that. But my point is it's open, accessible and welcoming to people interested in the sport. It's hard enough to even find any information about Sundrive or track cycling in Ireland and by all accounts it's a bleak place with no facilities that's subject to vandalism and your car gets broken into. That's all I've been able to glean from the web.



That's obvious, and all to the good. But you're kind of proving my point by coming straight back with that. To make such a facility worthwhile and value for money it also needs to function as a promotional tool for the sport and for recruiting young up and coming athletes.

I'm all for providing our national team the best possible facilities but at the end of the day they are a very small number of people compared to the very large number of people who would love to get to use a facility like this.

Have you tried looking at the Sundrive website, or the CI website? I found all the information I needed when starting out there.

I've been over at Herne Hill, it's the exact same as Sundrive. And chances are you won't have your car broken into in Crumlin. That's such a stupid generalisation by people who are afraid to leave their comfy little estates in upper-middle class suburbia.

You can't have a velodrome that can cater to the top end and your average joe. The track would end up filthy and covered in debris. There's a reason London Velopark is impossible to get into.

These things aren't really thought for as "value for money." CI wasn't formed as a money making scheme. It's there to provide cyclists in Ireland as best as they can. And what's needed is a system for our high end track cyclists. Club level is more than facilitated by Sundrive.

DubVelo

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Have you tried looking at the Sundrive website, or the CI website? I found all the information I needed when starting out there.

I've been over at Herne Hill, it's the exact same as Sundrive. And chances are you won't have your car broken into in Crumlin. That's such a stupid generalisation by people who are afraid to leave their comfy little estates in upper-middle class suburbia.

You can't have a velodrome that can cater to the top end and your average joe. The track would end up filthy and covered in debris. There's a reason London Velopark is impossible to get into.

These things aren't really thought for as "value for money." CI wasn't formed as a money making scheme. It's there to provide cyclists in Ireland as best as they can. And what's needed is a system for our high end track cyclists. Club level is more than facilitated by Sundrive.

Under 'Track Times' on the trackcycling.ie website I found times for 2008, 2009 and 2010. The CI website is awful, I found more info from stickybottle.com. More to the point, I'm from Dublin and I never even knew we had a velodrome!

I don't know the area myself, I'm just saying that's what I've read while searching for info.

I find that attitude ridiculously snobby. You do know the 'average joe' can go along and access the Manchester velodrome? And the Olympic velodrome was going to be opened to the public after the games.
Oh, it already has: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/on-your-bikes-london-now-you-can-ride-the-olympic-velodrome-8763188.html

'Value' and 'profit' are not the same thing.

Squidgy Black

DubVelo wrote: »

Under 'Track Times' on the trackcycling.ie website I found times for 2008, 2009 and 2010. The CI website is awful, I found more info from stickybottle.com. More to the point, I'm from Dublin and I never even knew we had a velodrome!

I don't know the area myself, I'm just saying that's what I've read while searching for info.

I find that attitude ridiculously snobby. You do know the 'average joe' can go along and access the Manchester velodrome? And the Olympic velodrome was going to be opened to the public after the games.
Oh, it already has: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/on-your-bikes-london-now-you-can-ride-the-olympic-velodrome-8763188.html

'Value' and 'profit' are not the same thing.

Best bet is to look at the current calendar, it gives you the times for the weeks. The website's a bit outdated, but it's still functional.

I'm not being snobby, I wouldn't even consider myself an average joe, I've only rode down in Sundrive twice. Olympic Velodrome can only be booked through a club with massive numbers and a huge waiting list, so it's far from open to the public.

See the thing is, GB have huge funding for their cycling programs, whereas CI just don't have the kind of money to have a massive indoor velodrome and still keep it open to the public. It involves running accredation sessions, hiring and paying coaches, hire bikes, more reception staff etc.

Harrybelafonte

DubVelo wrote: »

It is that. But my point is it's open, accessible and welcoming to people interested in the sport. It's hard enough to even find any information about Sundrive or track cycling in Ireland and by all accounts it's a bleak place with no facilities that's subject to vandalism and your car gets broken into. That's all I've been able to glean from the web.



That's obvious, and all to the good. But you're kind of proving my point by coming straight back with that. To make such a facility worthwhile and value for money it also needs to function as a promotional tool for the sport and for recruiting young up and coming athletes.

I'm all for providing our national team the best possible facilities but at the end of the day they are a very small number of people compared to the very large number of people who would love to get to use a facility like this.

A very large number of people? Numbers have increased certainly but we're well off "very large numbers who would LOVE to get to use a facility like this". Maybe they're the people who come on here commenting on how much they want an indoor velodrome in Ireland, have never been to Sundrive either to spectate of participate, mention how little info there is online about Sundrive despite a Facebook page, a Twitter account, a dedicated page at trackcycling.ie, a section in the CI website and the multiple threads on here, comment on the lack of facilities, again while having never been there so haven't seen the clubhouse with changing rooms and showers and bike rentals and meeting room. In fact during the bigger races seating has been provided and a shop is set up. Seats were empty for the whole event. I mean, who wants to spectate at something when you have to stand. I personally demand something for my free entry, it's not like its the Tour or anything. If I'm going to participate in something I'd demand heating, protection from the weather and somewhere to sit.

Vandalism and thievery has occurred yes. We're in the middle of a capital city in a less well off area, I'm not sure what you want, 24 hour Garda presence? Tallaght was going to be the site of the indoor, would you have vetoed that location?

If you want an indoor velodrome, stop coming here complaining about it and participate.

ednwireland

never mind the olympic velodrome this is what an average one costs

derby is building one at a cost of £27.5 million



computer generated interior


http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/pound-27m-velodrome-taking-shape/story-19270242-detail/story.html#axzz2ekuIVgH3

High Nellie

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

The idea behind the indoor velodrome was that it would be a place for the Irish team to practice, give lads like Irvine and the other national competitors like the Paralympics squads etc a decent setup to train in, so they wouldn't have to train in Manchester most of the time.

Surely the broader promotion and development of the discipline, 'from the bottom up', should be the motivation for such an ambitious project.

Beasty

The only justification in terms of ongoing costs is the savings of €100k+ a year they will make from not having to send elite cyclists (including paracyclists) overseas for training every year

Having said that I would hope (and expect) this facilty to be available for club, youth and public sessions - ther problem you start running into though is you then need a team of full-time coaches on hand which again increases costs

Harrybelafonte

There's talk of getting the floodlights for Sundrive sorted, but again cost is a huge restriction and those who use it may have to foor the bill per usuage, so imagine something of a greater scale.

The Aquatic Centre comes to mind.

dave_o_brien

There's two angles on this really, aren't there?

From a financial perspective, we have a number of track athletes and parathletes that perform at a very high level, and there is a cost involved in securing dedicated track time abroad, including travel, transport of equipment, accommodation, etc. From this perspective, a cost/benefit analysis would need to be done to figure out the benefit of having one in Ireland.

From a sporting perspective, we have very little interest in the sport nationally, and while it's growing, it's far from reaching a point where the demand is strong enough for a track. This implies it will need to be subsidised by lottery/olympic council money in the medium term, which is problematic.

The theory that there would be greater demand if the facilities were there is easy to argue, but also easy to argue against. It's not going to convince any policy makers.

In my opinion, getting a track built in Ireland for less than €30 million in a new building would be an admirable achievement. A retrofit brings its own complications, and would largely depend on the condition and suitability of the existing structure. Coupling with other marginal sports, such as badminton, table tennis, perhaps something like martial arts, seems a clever strategy

morana

All of the pros and cons just brings me back to the original low cost solution. With respect to Sundrive and it is great facility this would bring riding to a new level.

the risk in this is small. it wont bankrupt CI and I have no doubt that usage and thus value/ income would be much higher than the pessimistic estimates we made. the total cost would be somewhere in the region of 500k for Tallaght with running cost per year of around 60-80k and projected income of 20k is what we said but in relatiuon to a full blown super duper 10m+ facility its quite small. build tallaght first and then look at Abbottstown

Harrybelafonte

dave_o_brien wrote: »

There's two angles on this really, aren't there?

From a financial perspective, we have a number of track athletes and parathletes that perform at a very high level, and there is a cost involved in securing dedicated track time abroad, including travel, transport of equipment, accommodation, etc. From this perspective, a cost/benefit analysis would need to be done to figure out the benefit of having one in Ireland.

From a sporting perspective, we have very little interest in the sport nationally, and while it's growing, it's far from reaching a point where the demand is strong enough for a track. This implies it will need to be subsidised by lottery/olympic council money in the medium term, which is problematic.

The theory that there would be greater demand if the facilities were there is easy to argue, but also easy to argue against. It's not going to convince any policy makers.

In my opinion, getting a track built in Ireland for less than €30 million in a new building would be an admirable achievement. A retrofit brings its own complications, and would largely depend on the condition and suitability of the existing structure. Coupling with other marginal sports, such as badminton, table tennis, perhaps something like martial arts, seems a clever strategy

What we realistically need is empty RAF hangars or massive empty warehouses with no support pillars or suitably positioned pillars anyway.

In reality, these threads need to end, people are working away in the background, diligently at something that's an afterthought and basically wagon jumping to those complaining here, and what we argue here or comlpain about or rant about (like myself) is ultimately meaningless. We'll get one when the math works out.

You want to support the need for an indoor velodrome, come to Sundrive on Saturday cheer a bit, help out, enjoy. Do something.

dave_o_brien

morana wrote: »

the total cost would be somewhere in the region of 500k for Tallaght with running cost per year of around 60-80k and projected income of 20k is what we said but in relatiuon to a full blown super duper 10m+ facility its quite small. build tallaght first and then look at Abbottstown

Can I ask, is this figure accurate? It seems extraordinarily low, in my opinion. What did this figure include?

In advance, if you respond saying that you can't tell me, that's fine. I just can't believe you'd get very far towards a functioning track for that figure. Actually, I can't believe you'd get anywhere near one, to be honest.

Beasty

dave_o_brien wrote: »

In my opinion, getting a track built in Ireland for less than €30 million in a new building would be an admirable achievement.

Newport cost £7.5m to construct 10 years ago. What I don't know is whether this includes the additional on-site facilities (reception, bike storage facilities, spinning class room etc)

I was racing at Newport last week - if we could get anything approaching that it would be a fantastic facility (it does accomodate 500 spectators, a lot less than the Derby proposal, although I would not see any need for dedicated spectator facilities at all - if necessary a section inside the track can be put aside (they actually provide dining facilities inside the track at Manchester for some events)

The Falun track was a lot cheaper - I believe the track (excluding building) cost less than €100k to build. The land is already there at Abbotstiwn, so that hopefully removes a significant incremental capital cost of building elsewhere

Morana mentioned previously a total cost of perhaps €10m - I think it could be done a lot cheaper than that, but you then get into the debate of whether it is a community facility, and I suspect the scope for accomodating more sports diminishes. Hence if they could do something for this cost and spread it across 2 or 3 sports hopefully it can become a proper facility for the community at a cost that can be justified

Harrybelafonte

The running costs seem extremely low too. Would such a facility need security? How much to insure the building?